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/lit/ - Literature

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7216098 No.7216098 [Reply] [Original]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0KwdtCmvWg
>"german marxist intellectuals"

>> No.7216107

Keep this shit in /pol/. Those of us who have actually read the Frankfurt School know why your conspiracy theories are full of shit.

>> No.7216127

Ending religion and objectivity sounds like a good idea. Guess those Marxists aren't so bad after all.

>> No.7216128

>>7216127
Except Marxists don't want to end religion, at least not anymore.

>> No.7216498

>>7216127
It doesn't...

>> No.7216512

>>7216127
>Ending religion sounds like a good idea

Step 1: Read some Kierkegaard, Aquinas and Wiliam James.
Step 2: Get rid of that fedora

>> No.7216532

Marx trolls German intellectuals super hard though

>> No.7216542

>>7216107
It's true.

>> No.7216550

>>7216512

Why do you think "read X" constitutes a real argument?

I have read both Kierkegaard and Aquinas yet I see nothing in them that actually salvages religion as in the institution of Church and clergy. In fact most of Kierkegaard's philosophy can be turned into a secular existentialist subjectivism and nothing would be lost in the process.

As for the Aquinas meme christcucks love so much, only they could beat us in the head with a medieval friar tuck that has been repeatedly been btfo by William of Ockham, Kant, Heidegger and Russel.

>> No.7216563
File: 168 KB, 317x475, 71XRD09XJDL.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7216563

>>7216127

But the Frankfurters never wanted to destroy objectivity.

This is gross oversimplification that undergraduates who haven't read any philosophical text spout because they read a Wikipedia article.

Any one who has actually read the seminal text of the Frankfurt school, knows, that Adorno and Horkheimer were never against science, reason or even the Enlightenment as such. ( It was the Enlightenment after all that moved philosophy towards materialism and monism). But instead were opposed to the instrumental reasoning, which is used uncritically as methodological tool to dominate and reproduce, unlike the reasoning of critical philosophy. As such reasoning there becomes just another trap of ideology, it is empty because it professes nothing and is directed towards nothing else but it's own production.

The whole of text is ironically very similar to late Heidegger's criticisms of metaphysical philosophy.

>> No.7216587

>>7216563
Shhhhh, don't expect conspiracy theorists to actually read the Franks.

>> No.7216607
File: 1.60 MB, 400x400, 1442587312875.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7216607

>end objectivity

>> No.7216610

>>7216563
>The whole of text is ironically very similar to late Heidegger's criticisms of metaphysical philosophy.
that's not true at all. heidegger was conservative-reactioanry whereas adorno and horkheimer were progressive-emancipatory

>> No.7216614

>>7216098
>PJ Media
Seems legit.

>> No.7216620

>>7216563
Mate, you are wrong. Adorno was basically a reactionary that takes way too much from Maistre and Schmitt and YES he doesn't like the Enlightenment since it does evolve into either totalitarian Capitalism, totaliatarian nazism or Stalinist Communism. If anything, /pol/tards that aren't STEMfags would actually enjoy reading it, if they had the brain to comprehend a page of it.

>> No.7216625
File: 967 KB, 4621x2914, fsflochart.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7216625

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjaBpVzOohs

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/921_frankfurt.html

https://pages.gseis.ucla.edu/faculty/kellner/Illumina%20Folder/kell24.htm

http://www.conspiracyschool.com/blog/holiness-sin-freud-frankfurt-school-and-kabbalah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBfT0pi0cMs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIdBuK7_g3M

>> No.7216638

>>7216610
Adorno was a social conservative.

>> No.7216640

>>7216625

that picture is hilariously problematic

>> No.7216644

>>7216640
Right. KGB wasn't around when Frankfurt was established.

Also:
>conspiracyschool

>> No.7216737

>>7216107
This. So much this. Jesus fucking christ.

>> No.7216772

>>7216737
Come to think of it, why don't we write something against all the anti-Frank garbage that shows up on conservative websites?

>> No.7216823

>>7216772
>he thinks people hate the Frankfurt School because of their means, not their ends

Maybe you should actually look into modern Critical Theory. It's getting more right-wing, then again Critique of capitalism was more of a reactionary thing before WW2 and the frankfurts know this.

>> No.7216905

>>7216625
>"cultural marxism is based in jewish cults guize!"
Funny, because most of the Franks were staunchly anti-religion, and Adorno gave Benjamin a ton of shit for torahfagging all the time.

Once again, conspiratards don't read.

>> No.7216979
File: 200 KB, 990x744, fedora1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7216979

>>7216127

>> No.7217013

>>7216823
>It's getting more right-wing
Doubtful.

>> No.7217043

>>7216610
You completely missed the point.

>> No.7217045

>End objectivity
>As if objectivity ever existed

Nothing can exist without context, objectivity was always a delusion, the wise men of any era were the ones who understood this, even if they didn't profess it.

If subjectivity seems to be more popular now, it's because people have easier access to ideas, and it's easier to gain a wider perspective if you take your head our of your ass.

>> No.7217054

Marxism is merely academic right now, and also toothless and watered down. It poses a threat to nothing. Only the kids who go on to become academics give a shit about what their marxist profs prattle on about. It evacuates the heads of the other 99% as soon as they leave college if not way sooner.

>> No.7217086

>>7217054
Are you saying SJWs aren't REALLY Marxists? Shocked!

>> No.7217095

>>7216098
>all these lib pups arguing that 'muh Frankenfurters nvr said any of this, l2read /pol/emics'

Doesn't actually matter what the actual positions of the authors were; it's simply how they are being used. It's undeniable that undergrad liberal arts studies use Frankfurt texts, even if it is only small selects in Norton or other anthologies to push quite a bit of pic related >>7216098. Majority of undergrads, in my experience, mention the same names (Marx, Adorno, Benjamin, Foucault, Fanon, Freud, Lacan, Derrida, and Nietzsche) and have read the same 20-50 pages of each, to make the same leftists points. Say what you will about the 'TRUE MEANING OF THE TEXTS' but for anyone who has ever lived it and disagreed with the bias it's all pretty clear.

>> No.7217100

>>7216098
/pol/ go home

>> No.7217105

>>7216098
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0KwdtCmvWg
>"Devil's Pleasure Palace"
That sounds like a fetish.

>> No.7217127

I remember reading in some anthology of marxism lit crit a marxist response to the charge that they just dont write clearly and that if theyre so concerned about the common man maybe stop writing like your audience is all academics? The guys response was that capitaliam kept the people in the dark so they werejt accustomed to reading stuff in this style of language, and if the working class werent being deliberately distracted they could read jargon-filled academic marxism no problem.

I decided maybe marxism wasnt for me.

>> No.7217132

>>7217095
Then the real problem is with the universities teaching the material.

>> No.7217141

>>7216625
lol

>> No.7217143

>>7217127
double lol

>> No.7217152

>>7217141
Anyone who takes that fucking chart seriously oh my god.

>> No.7217178

>>7216098
Critical theory has nothing to do with Marxism and Foucault had long stopped being a Marxist when he started expanding it. He ended a neoliberal for fuck's sake.

>> No.7217193

>>7217127

You cannot possibly think that theory doesn't matter.

Marxism is all about praxis, how the average worker needs to develop class consciousness and demand the ownership of the means of production.

But philosophy is by definition against ideology, critical theory is praxis on another level whereby one is fighting the distillation of meaning. Just because it cannot be understood by everyone doesn't mean it's meaningless, ideas actually do move the world.

>> No.7217200

>>7217178
Critical Theory is influenced by Marxism though.

>> No.7217201

>>7216098
>"literature" "discussion" "board"

>> No.7217206

>>7216905
There is a lot of academic discussion as to how many "Jewish paradigms" can be found in early Critical Theory.

>> No.7217211

>>7217095

Well /pol/ hasn't read anything on that part, so it's more of an embarrassment on your part, which is pretty clear that you are ignorant when you collectively define Adorno, Lacan and Freud as "leftist talking points".

>> No.7217213

>>7217178
I haven't watched the video, but Frankfurt School is marxist, there is no way around this. Foucault and the other frenchfags are a whole different school that might be called mostly leftists, but they were rivals with the frankfurters. I really doubt anyone associates Foucalt with Critical Theory.

>> No.7217229

>>7217213
Critical Theory was killed for good in the 1970s by post-structuralism. No one at all associates Foucault, Lacan, or Deleuze with Critical Theory.

>> No.7217244

>>7217193
College graduate and i have no idea what youre talking about, but good luck getting the working class to listen to it.

>> No.7217246

>>7216098
Every other comment in that video amounts to:
>Jew
>Jew
>Jew
>they were JOOS NOT GERMANS!!!1

>> No.7217255

People in politics and academia are usually sociopathic or narcissistic so I avoid them.

>> No.7217283

>>7217206
Hence why they weren't Marxists. There are real problems with mixing Marxism with theology. Marxism is a science, religion is not.

>> No.7217302
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7217302

>people unironically believe in Marxism
is this 2005?

>> No.7217328

>>7217302
Go to any American liberal arts college and you'll see it.

>> No.7217419

Marxism is no different than capitalism or religion in that it's an efficient tool for intelligent psychopaths to attain power. Their goals and methods are supported by the legions of worker bees who engage in ideological (and often literal) warfare.

>> No.7217448

>>7216610
Notice how this anon argues from identity rather than fact. "Adorno was X and Heidegger was Y, they couldn't possibly have had similar thoughts on a particular topic!"

>> No.7217451

Anyone else who was familiar with the Frankfurt school prior to the conspiracy meme find it absurd and hilarious and also a bit frightening (given the blatant groupthink)?

>> No.7217467

>germans still think they're people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ztOV2wrrkY

>> No.7217469

>>7217283
> Marxism is a science
Say wut?

>> No.7217494

>>7217451
I think groupthink of atheists and SJWs is even more frightening tbh. Cultural Marxism had to have a root cause. It didn't just grow out of nothing. If it didn't directly come from Marxism and the Jewish 'artists and philosophers' that escaped Berlin then where did it come from?

>> No.7217525

>>7217494
What I don't like about these discussions is that everything is defined in terms of opposition. For example, when I brought up the groupthink surrounding the Frankfurt school conspiracy, you defined it *against* "SJW" groupthink.

Look, groupthink is bad wherever it happens. But why do we have to force this conversation down the well-trod road of "SJW" vs "MRA" or whatever other nonsense? This has nothing to do with that. The point is that it is a bit weird to see a bunch of writers you had been familiar with for years suddenly being blamed, with literally no evidence, for some kind of vast KGB-style subversion. And when the arguments ITT talk about "objectivity" you have to wonder why those who prize objectivity so highly haven't actually read the literature.

If you want to change the argument to the Frankfurt school *influencing* "cultural marxism* like how Nirvana is at least partially responsible for Stone Sour, go nuts but that's a completely different argument than the conspiracy theory alleges and it's that conspiracy that is contentious.

In a way, the Nirvana -> Stone Sour thing is relevant, too, because I think what happened in American academia is the result of irresponsible, untalented narcissists using a better version of themselves as an excuse to make their watered down tripe. The way writers like Foucault and Derrida are taught in American academia is an embarrassment, for example. Btw, those two names are more responsible for the Tumblr culture you hate than anybody from the Frankfurt school. Or, at least the American appropriation of those dudes.

>> No.7217527

>>7217451
See the links from the post at:
>>7216625

>> No.7217536

>>7217525
>I think what happened in American academia is the result of irresponsible, untalented narcissists using a better version of themselves as an excuse to make their watered down tripe. The way writers like Foucault and Derrida are taught in American academia is an embarrassment, for example. Btw, those two names are more responsible for the Tumblr culture you hate than anybody from the Frankfurt school. Or, at least the American appropriation of those dudes.
Fucking this.

>> No.7217547

>>7216550
>most of Kierkegaard's philosophy can be turned into a secular existentialist subjectivism
dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
re-read the bible

>> No.7217552

>>7217527
Which one of those links has textual citations from writers of the Frankfurt school?

>> No.7217556

>>7217552
None, except the UCLA one. That's the point.

>> No.7217562
File: 15 KB, 1371x129, pol.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7217562

>>7217451

>> No.7217570

>Unironically using the term SJW

Top minds, clearly

>> No.7217576

>>7217562
Please don't tell me you're serious. Nevermind the Frankfurt school, asking for citations is 4chan 101, annoying as it may be.

What's particularly dishonest about that post, though, is the way the anon swaps what was probably a request for a direct citation from Frankfurt texts for "quotes" as if a quote from just anybody is proof of something that is allegedly in the hands of a Frankfurt writer.

>> No.7217579
File: 173 KB, 1259x423, 4chan lit cultural marxism frankfurt school jews.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7217579

>>7216905

>> No.7217583

>>7217576
I asked for a source when someone claimed that one of the ideas from the Frankfurt School was that white people shouldn't own property.
I asked for a source and after a back and forth he linked me to a wiki page about the frankfurt school.
Obviously it didn't say anything like that and I asked again for a source, then this tinfoil swede posted

>> No.7217588

>>7217583
>I asked for a source when someone claimed that one of the ideas from the Frankfurt School was that white people shouldn't own property.
Well, if you're looking for a quote like that you won't find it. Frankfurt wrote very little about race or "white devils".

>> No.7217590

>>7217588
no shit, I just wanted him to make a fool of himself

>> No.7217594

>>7217579
I remember that thread. It was hilarious.

>> No.7217597

>>7217583
I'm just relieved you posted that image in jest and not as a serious argument.

>> No.7217663

>>7216098
>PJ Media

>> No.7217830

>>7216610
Do you even know what you're talking about?

>> No.7218056

>>7217211
Plenty of people on /pol/ have been to an undergraduate humanities class that introduced the theorists I mentioned. All of the writers I have mentioned are used in the universities to push leftist agendas. Nietzsche is simultaneously used as a reference for the 'f-type personality problem' (the oppressor that cultural marxist are so focused on) as well as for when a professor wants to convince you that 'everything you ever knew is actually the opposite of what it is you thought it is' (here they will generally start with 'Nietzsche is always misread as someone who inspired fascism when in reality __________________). Then you find yourself in another class with some of the same kids and they say exactly the same crap you heard from the professor in the last one. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen someone say something along the lines of 'I more or less agree with Foucault on the subject of objectivity and knowability' as though a statement like that actually means anything.

>> No.7218210

>>7217525
>What I don't like about these discussions is that everything is defined in terms of opposition.
Your comment about finding the Frankfurt school conspiracy to be absurd was in opposition to the OP. That's completely fine, so long as you are aware that All opposing arguments > are defined in terms of opposition.

The reason I brought up SJW groupthink which is far more prevalent in our society is that it was supposed to have been created in part by the Frankfurt School. So it has everything to do with that.

>group think is bad everywhere. but why do we need to force this down the road of SJW
Because SJW and Social Marxism is related.

>Foucault and Derrida... those two names are more responsible for the Tumblr culture you hate than anybody from the Frankfurt school.
So what? Foucault was along the same lines as Adorno. They are both merely an extention of Critical Theory along the same lines. I'm not blaming anyone for having ideas. Ideas are great. I disagree when those ideas are actually being employed underhandedly and behind the scenes (meaning outside of their works of literature) to foment strife within a society and cause it to collapse on its heels.

>> No.7218228

>>7217579
>not real Jews
I don't know what's worse: people like this guy, or people like OP.

>> No.7219882

>>7216098
>pajama media

>> No.7220623

>>7216823
>t's getting more right-wing, then again Critique of capitalism was more of a reactionary thing before WW2 and the frankfurts know this.
Care to elaborate?