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/lit/ - Literature

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7159576 No.7159576 [Reply] [Original]

Occasionally I will check out a popular fantasy novel or series that has been reccommended to me, usually by genre fans on the internet. I try to keep an open mind. I love the fantasy genre, truly. I want to read something as powerful and intelligent as LOTR or ASOIAF. I want to be blown away.

I am almost always disappointed. I tried to read pic related. It had some interesting ideas, but the writing was so juvenile and clumsy that I just couldn't finish it. The Name of the Wind was just fucking terrible. I hate that book and I hate Patrick Rothfuss. Same with Steven Erickson and Brandon Sanderson and Brent Weeks and Tad Williams and Glen Cook and all the other hacks that bring shame upon the genre. Fuck all of them.

I guess I'm just too old to enjoy these types of books. I can understand why kids would like these writers. They're too ignorant and poorly read to know any better. But for mature readers, there is truly a paucity of well written fantasy novels, and that just makes me sad.

>> No.7159591

Try Titus Groan

>> No.7159594

>>7159576
GRRM is trash. Fantasy is trash. Anyone who takes it seriously or reads it for anything other than enjoyment is an idiot.

>> No.7159602

The Black Company is okay.

The main problem is that the entire genre of 'fantasy' is just living in Tolkien's shadow. They're all slight extrapolations of *his* fantasy. No one wants to put in the effort to think up a world for 5 years and write a book in 1 like he did, they want to jump right into the writing.

>> No.7159603

>>7159594

GRRM is not a literary genius, but he is one of the best story tellers in any genre and he is a more than competent writer. Yes, he occasionally fumbles. But he is certainly not trash. Anyone who says he is has their head up their ass.

>> No.7159610

>>7159591

Peale is a great prose stylist. Too bad he's boring as fuck to read.

>> No.7159613

>>7159610

*Peake, damn it

>> No.7159614

>>7159603

GRRM found a great formula for pumping out the book equivalent of television drama. The focus isn't on interesting concepts or worlds or sweeping developments, it's intrapersonal tabloid bullshit. Just get a huge cast of characters and make them betray each other a lot. Oh no, it's so shocking! Please don't die, character #294!

Expertly done, sure, but I hate it.

>> No.7159624

>>7159603
Care to explain why you think that? His writing is innocuous at best and the story itself hinges on dead ends and cliffhangers. It's admirable in a sense, sure, but only in the same way that products from an assembly line are admirable.

>> No.7159657

>>7159603
>he is a more than competent writer
Give me one example of his writing that is "competent."
>but he is one of the best story tellers in any genre
Lol no. Try most formulaic.
>anyone who says he is has their head up their ass.
Or is a person who doesn't pretend that soap-opera-tier books are anything more than they are: mindless entertainment.

>> No.7159699

That's not true you dingleberry, decent authors definitely put time and effort into worldbuilding. Sanderson was working on the worldbuilding for The Stormlight Archives 15 years before Way of Kings was released

>> No.7159703

Consider the broken empire trilogy. I greatly enjoyed them, it has a mature style, with an intelligent plot and lots of graphic imagery.

>> No.7159713

>>7159576
Are you me, OP? Those are pretty much my conclusions too, and that list follows very closely my readings in the sf/fantasy genres, which I'd read in-between other more serious authors.
I'm not exactly young nor fun loving, but I've managed to enjoy some of them (first book of Locke Lamore and some of Glen Cook's) for what they were. Since I don't consume TV nor Hollywood movies (and very few movies if we're talking about distractions), some series are more enjoyable than others.

For my part, I'd recommend Hyperion. Only the first book is worth it. And of course, Gene Wolfe, which I absolutely love. LeGuin and Delany have been somewhat interesting too. Maybe Scott A. Bakker's, but it took some effort to only pay attention to the metaphysical aspects in it.

>>7159603
This anon >>7159614 speaks the truth. He's a good story teller, but as the series has progressed and expanded, GRRM's shortcomings are more than obvious.

I can't find any literary merit in the series, except for a few things:
- a convincing authorial voice with just the right tone for this very long epic, one that manages to be immersive enough for you not to notice how full of nonsense and filler it's riddled with
- rich historical background, in the sense it's a somewhat believable or complex world
- some rather interesting mind games with all the foreshadowing and stuff

However, I do slightly disagree with this bit
>interesting concepts or worlds
It seems to me the more an author focuses on the uniqueness of his world building, the more generic it actually ends up being. Like ticking off stuff from a checklist with all the possible combinations of worlds and characters, which is why I've partially enjoyed Joe Abercrombie's series. It's so consciously filled with cliches it almost feels like the beginning of a post-fantasy genre for some reason. All in a good sense and with a lot less retardation than The Name of the Wind.

>> No.7159733

>>7159703
Stop selling this muh shock value YA series, please.

>> No.7159755

>>7159576
Try Neal Stephen's Anathem.

>> No.7159813

>>7159699
If only he had put that much effort into his prose.

>> No.7159838

>>7159614
>The focus isn't on interesting concepts or worlds or sweeping developments
That's exactly what it's about. How did it go over your head that badly?

>> No.7159855

>>7159576
I know what you mean, OP. I tried to read pic related twice -- once in the winter and again in the spring -- but I couldn't persevere. I wanted desperately to like it, but I just couldn't.

>> No.7160106

>>7159602
This is so accurate it fucking hurts.

>> No.7160133

>>7159699
I wish this worldbuilding meme would end. Yes, a good environment can positively impact a story, but it can't carry it. With Sanderson, I always hear compliments about his setting, and that is what keeps me away from reading his books, the suspicion that it's all fluff and no meat.

>> No.7160152

>>7159602
This hasn't been true since like 1997

>> No.7160192

>>7159576
The Lies of Locke Lamora might be one of the worst books I've read in years. Probably the only book I've ever put down with no intention of ever picking back up.

>> No.7160207

>>7159602

Look to pre-tolkien stuff then, or to his contemporaries.

There's a lot of really bizarre outre stories, especially if you're willing to go a bit science-fantasy.

>> No.7160214

>>7159603

GRRM is a great editor/compiler.

He should have gone full Isaac Asimov mode, and pumped out a bunch of "best 50 fantasy short stories of 2015" - magazines

>> No.7160219

>>7159576
Try the Darkness that Comes Before

>tfw well never see the unholy consult published

>> No.7160246

How's Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy? Is it worth the time or not up to OP's standards?

>> No.7160292

>>7160246

She's actually one of the better writers working in the field today. Very readable.

>> No.7160350

What about some of Jorge Luis Borges?

>> No.7160427

>>7160219
That is also trash.

>> No.7160530

>>7160350

That's more magical realism than fantasy, right?

>> No.7160684

>>7160427
Should fit perfectly with your taste then.

>> No.7160745
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7160745

>>7160427

Don't tell me this. I have high expectations for this series.

I don't usually read fantasy. I read Wheel of Time in highschool, GRRM about five or six years ago, Wolfe and Le Guin more recently. I didn't like GRRM and the current crop of Sanderson, Erikson, Rothfus, Abercrombie et al doesn't seem that interesting to me.

But Bakker's series seems like something worth reading
What's bad about it in your opinion?

>> No.7160826

>>7159624
>His writing is innocuous at best
At best, his writing is certainly better than that.

>and the story itself hinges on dead ends and cliffhangers.
This is so far from the truth, but I see it repeated so often here. I'm convinced /lit/ generally only can give the most superficial and basic interpretation of these books.

>> No.7160908

>>7160207
Try the 'New Weird'. They're a conscious reaction against the Tolkien/Lewis/Martin 'epic' kind of fantasy. China Mieville is probably the most famous, but there's loads of others (even Gaiman when he's on form).

>> No.7160913

>>7160530
Just what IS 'magical realism', anyway? How is it different from straight fantasy?

>> No.7161030

>>7159614
You sound like you have only watched the TV show, not read the books.
>pumping out
>one book every 5 years
lel

>> No.7161036

>>7160745
I love Bakker. Just read it and make your own mind up about it pls instead of being insecure because one guy on /lit/ didn't like it.

>> No.7161044

>>7160913
Just look up the wikipedia article on it.

>> No.7161212

>>7160246
Surprisingly good prose for the genre woth some beautiful passages in there. She understands how to write characters that feel real better than any other living author, and not just within the genre. Probably my favourite current fantasy author.

That said, her pacing can be a bit slow at times and worldbuilding is generic.

>> No.7161227

>>7161212
I picked up a Hobb (first assassin book) after a thread like this, and yeah she can write. Didn't really feel the need to go on with her though. Really the strong suit was plotting/momentum and the actual world wasn't all that. It was respectable in the way that certain crime or pulp historical writers are. Or Pratchett, for that matter - compressed and efficient descriptions.

For something actually amazing, Peake. Le Guin is almost great, but always seems to include one or two head slapping missteps.

>> No.7161234

>>7160908
I'm not really that keen on Mieville as fantasy. I think he's okay at sci-fi (i.e. embassytown) where there's an organising concept but stuff like PSS and Kraken he just indulges himself. (Cue fifty odd pages of cactus people or star trek jokes).

>> No.7161268

>>7161227
any specific books by Peake you'd recommend?

>> No.7161566

>>7159576
what about Wheel of Time

>> No.7161569

>>7161268
I said at the beginning Titus Groan, and you wouldn't want to start anywhere but the first book, Titus Groan.

>> No.7161740

>>7160745
1. It doesn't tell a complete story, the 1,500+ page Prince of Nothing series is basically an intro to the follow up series he's writing now.
2. He doesn't make you care about the main action of the books, because none of the characters actually care about the fantasy version of the crusade that takes up the majority of the series.
3. It reads like Bakker is saving all the interesting parts of his world for the later books, or at least there aren't any interesting parts on display here.
4. The character of Kellhus, who eventually essentially becomes the main character, is the best at everything, from fighting to manipulating people to magic, so there's no drama in anything that he does.
5. Passages where Kellhus manipulates people attempt to depict him as a master in doing so, but come off as all the other characters just being unbelievably stupid. All of the passages where this happens are downright bad, and there are more and more of them as the story goes on.

Bottom line, I regret reading it.

>> No.7161745
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7161745

>>7159576
Yes, TLoLL is terrible. I'm sorry you had to experience whatever portion of it that you did.

>> No.7161750

>>7161566
I hope that was a joke answer.

http://forum.malazanempire.com/topic/21832-hateful-wheel-of-time-review/

>> No.7161928

>>7161740
The crusade is a pretty complete story arc m8. Just because it isn't the end of everything doesn't mean it's not a finished storyline.

It's not so much about the crusade succeeding but how it ends up being used and who it benefits that motivates the characters.

Also, if you think that you're supposed to like Kellhus then you were reading it wrong

>> No.7161935

>>7161745
Christ the neckbeard is an insufferable cunt.

Is it possible to find a review with more nackhanded compliments?

>> No.7161958

>>7161740
I started off hating the books too, but I pushed through and wound up liking them.

>1,500+ page Prince of Nothing series is basically an intro to the follow up series he's writing now
It's all pretty much a setup for the other books.

>Bakker is saving all the interesting parts of his world for the later books, or at least there aren't any interesting parts on display here
This is true. All the crazy shit starts popping up in the third, fourth, and fifth books.

>Kellhus, who eventually essentially becomes the main character, is the best at everything, from fighting to manipulating people to magic, so there's no drama in anything that he does
I thought the same. Keep reading. He's actually the antichrist.

>> No.7161992

>>7161740
>he read the whole series
>he thinks Kellhus is the main character
>he thinks Kellhus being the product of thousands of years of monastic eugenics and ubermenschian philosophy doesn't jive with him being good at everything

lol

I'll agree with you Bakker can't do Kellhus' rhetoric justice. This dude is supposed to be Jesus, the most eloquent, insightful, and awe-inspiring figure who ever lived in Bakker's world, and Bakker just can't quite capture it. Though I don't know who can.

>> No.7162130

>>7161928
>>7161992
I'm not criticizing the character of Kellhus because I thought he was supposed to be likable (which he clearly wasn't) or because I thought him being perfect at everything was inconsistent with the internal logic of the book (it wasn't), I'm criticizing the effect that having a character who's good at everything has on the dramatic tension of the book. He effectively becomes the main character because by the third book the narrative spends more time with him than anyone else, and every scene with him in it there's never any doubt about what is going to happen, since without any weaknesses he's sure to succeed. It made the story predictable and uninteresting for me. Choosing to write a story centering on a character like this was, in my opinion, a mistake.

I agree that the crusade was more about how the characters used it to their advantage, but there were still significant portions of the books dedicated to the action of the crusade itself- if none of the characters in the book care about the outcome, then you have no reason to care either during the 50 page long battles of cavalry charges against fire magicians. It created a structural problem in the books.

>>7161958
I'm glad you ended up liking them, but I'm not willing to give him any more of my time (I feel like 1,500 pages is more than a fair shake).

>> No.7162144

>>7159576
>as powerful and intelligent as LOTR or ASOIAF.
Read Gene Wolfe you pleb. Not even a genre fan, but he's one of the best authors of the modern era.

>> No.7162185

>>7161227
>Le Guin is almost great, but always seems to include one or two head slapping missteps
How so? I thought that The Dispossessed was magnificent.

>> No.7162290

>>7159576
I'm enjoying this book though, OP. The setting is different to the standard magical world you get, although I thought the magic in TLoLM is pretty overpowered.

>> No.7162292

>>7162185
You know that bit where the (straight) anarchist science hero guy is hanging out with his buddy who's gay. And they're in a dorm. And his buddy is horny so he's just, like, yeah let's buttsex if you like. So she's saying these unpossessive people aren't proprietorial about their bodies either, but it's just so unconvincing as a scenario. In other places she's good on how human nature would and wouldn't change with conditioning but that scene just stretches credibility.

Also, some of the irony laden conversations with rich people are a bit too heavy handed. Good book still.

>> No.7162299

>>7161745

Jesus fucking Christ, what an insufferable piece of shit.

>> No.7162387

>>7159614
Yes A Song of Ice and fire is a boring world with no sweeping developments at all.

Yes people dying is a formula and never happens irl, especially in a world war.

>> No.7162780

>>7162290

No matter how good those aspects of the book are, they are undone by Lynch's college-freshman level grasp of the English language and his tone deaf ear for dialogue.

>> No.7162833

>>7162292
It's stated earlier in the book that everyone experiments sexually during childhood with both sexes, and in that instance it's stated that their sexuality plays the role of reestablishing trust between the two of them, which really isn't very unbelievable. It's hard to understand or accept coming from a system of rigid gender roles though.

>> No.7163256

>>7162780
I can agree with you that his writing style isn't up to scratch. It is the first book of the seriea to be fair, so he may have improved in the following books.

>> No.7163268

>>7162833
>coming from a system of rigid gender roles
>system of rigid gender roles
>rigid gender roles

Feminist detected.