Does /lit/ see Manga as respectable reading?

[Anonymous No.7156408]

No i'm not talking about all the porn based Manga, I'm talking about the ones that actually try to tell a story.

[Anonymous No.7156415]

No.

[Anonymous No.7156417]

>>7156408
Too many pictures, not enough reading.

[Anonymous No.7156428]

>>7156417
>>7156415
Go fuck yourselves. That was my immediate reaction.


What I will tell you is to go read more.

[Anonymous No.7156431]

No. Comics have pictures and dialogue only. They're completely different from books. Books have to describe a scene using words. Comics can just draw it, requiring less effort to read but also takes away the imagination part.

This is /lit/. It's also know as the literature board. We like literature. Some on here might like comics, some may not. But no one can deny they are two separate things entirely.

[Anonymous No.7156432]

>Does /lit/ see Manga as respectable reading?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.7156434]

>>7156408

[Anonymous No.7156436]

>reading manga for the story
How pleb of you. You should be admiring the art, just like you should be reading literature for the prose.

[Anonymous No.7156438]

Nope

[Anonymous No.7156445]

Well that sums it up well enough, does /lit/ at least see it as a legit form of story telling?

[Anonymous No.7156448]

>>7156436
The art is just the sprinkles for me, if I like the art style I'll see if theirs an anime for it, but mostly it's for the story.

[Anonymous No.7156449]

>>7156445
Of course it is. And for what it's worth, it doesn't matter what /lit/ likes or 'approves' of. Read what you enjoy.

[Anonymous No.7156470]

>>7156434
Oh man, that .gif tho.

[Anonymous No.7156483]

No, they can have cool stories, characters and action but that's about it.

[Anonymous No.7156523]

>>7156483
Alright, this thread answered my question without killing some of my hope for humanity.
Good job

[Anonymous No.7156536]

>>7156523
Your faith in humanity depends on whether or not people think manga is respectable? Seriously?

[Anonymous No.7156581]

I'll disagree with most of the people in this thread and say that, yes, manga can be literature, although I want to expand it to include graphic novels. Most manga/graphic novels are more geared towards pop entertainment, but there are people who do challenge that and create meaningful, unique works in these media. The combination of art, the photographic direction you might say, and the written word form a unique experience different from prose or poetry alone. American graphic novelists and those critics who take comics very seriously are more leaning towards this "literary comics" trend than Japanese, but what we see manga-wise is a very small slice of the entire market (and the manga (plural) I'm talking about rarely gets discussed or mentioned on this site). Most Japanese academic criticism of manga is untranslated, but I believe there has been a trend towards considering graphic novels as literature in english criticism ever since Maus won a Pulitzer Prize Also you have to remember that this is a newer form of literature and is still developing as markets change to cater towards different tastes. I had a love for literature long before I became interested in manga, but it is a nice expansion. And for the stuff that isn't particularly literary, it sure is fun. If anyone knows about the about the France/Belgian comic industry/tradition feel free to chime in as my knowledge there is very lacking.

[Anonymous No.7156709]

>>7156408
Yes /lit/ will.
Since they hate Liberty and Freedom.
Why do Fahrenheit 451 and Constitution on Liberty exist on /lit/ approved recommendations?

[Anonymous No.7157066]

>>7156536
Well I made this thread half expecting to be bombarded with hate and being called a Weeaboo or what not.
But it was quite civil
>>7156581
Like this stand up Anon right here, fucking beautiful if I say so myself.

[Anonymous No.7157084]

Manga can certainly be art, and even if it's not is often very good entertainment.

I don't think it's literature but that is comparatively a less interesting conversation.

[Anonymous No.7157117]

>>7156408
>actually try to tell a story.
They don't try hard enough.

[Anonymous No.7157153]

>>7156408
I haven't read any manga in a long time but there are a couple of works I'd consider respectable: Monster, MW, Nijigahara Holograph, Yoshihiro Tatsumi's work. A lot of series strike me as little more than escapist fantasy, but I'm not going to blame that on the medium.

[Anonymous No.7157188]

>>7156448
You know, I still love anime and manga, but I;m finding that a lot of what I used to love is actually shit. I mean, semi interesting, but often very very dramatic. Like an animated soap opera, and that can be really corny.

[Anonymous No.7157193]

>>7156581
Links to untranslated respectable academic manga criticism?

[Anonymous No.7157194]

>>7156408
Enjoyable reading? Yes.
Respectable reading? Fuck no.

[Anonymous No.7157755]

Yes.

[Anonymous No.7157811]

>>7156434
You have no authority to say that and the same is suggested directly back at you from the majority of posters on this board,
you pseudo intellectual buffoon.
A few weeks ago you were POSTING recommendations in anime thread on this board.

Also: Serial Experiments Lain

[Anonymous No.7159401]

>>7156408
Usually no. Most LNs, anime, and videogames aren't any better either. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure is probably the most respected work in the medium.

[Anonymous No.7159408]

>>7156408
>Does /lit/ see Manga as respectable reading?

[Anonymous No.7159418]

>>7156408
One thing people posting in this thread should keep in mind is that most novels aren't "respectable reading either"

[Anonymous No.7159496]

Can anyone name any slice of day or similar genre mangas that would match up to the broad umbrella of literary fiction along with its scope?
I mean works that deal with the trascendental and the human condition through metaphors and symbols? Themes like life and death, memory, legacy, etc?
Because all the slice of day stuff I've ever read is comfy muh feels crap more interested in ramen eating guys and cute catchphrases, and anything dealing with larger themes are usually romance or genre fiction like equivalents (sf, fantasy). The impression I get from these latter genres is that the portraited drama is all about shocking and style, the action and the uniqueness of its cast more relevant than its meaning, its play on cultural stereotypes. I've yet to find any manga that deals with any of this in a mature way, where substance is above entertainment value.

[Anonymous No.7159519]

>>7159496
>Themes like life and death, memory, legacy, etc?
YKK maybe. It touches on those. But I'm sure you'd dismiss it as comfy muh feels crap because of the way it is presented.

[Anonymous No.7159521]

>>7159496
Masaaki Yuasa does this with anime

[Anonymous No.7159523]

Sequential art is a different medium and although it's not as developed as literature as been thorughout history, that is not to say as a artform is cannot be. Most people think Watchman is only good for its plot, the reality is it would be not be comparable if it purely done as a piece of written, a lot of effort went into giving the graphical presentation meaning (the theme of symmetry for example)

[Anonymous No.7159537]

>>7159496
Barakamon is a comft SoL anime, it has a manga but I haven't read it. Maybe watch/read that if you're looking for something outside of shitty cute girls doing cute things SoL.

Fukumoto manga is fucking excellent and intense but a lot of his stories center on gambling. 'Strongest Man Kurosawa' is one of his manga that isn't about gambling and is about a middle aged guy who realizes he's done nothing with his life and what happens after that realization. Fukumutos art is a bit unorthodox and stylized but you get used to it after a while.

Watch 'Welcome to the NHK' , Tatami Galaxy or Ping Pong:the animation if you haven't already, they might be what you're looking for but they're anime not manga.

[Anonymous No.7159540]

>>7159521
Fuck of kokko.

[Anonymous No.7159545]

The problem with it is it is too focused on popular consumption. Look at the original Ghost in the Shell manga, there is some good focus on themes of transhumanism but at the same time it has fanservice and kawai shit in it to attract the mainstream market. The orginal manga has nowhere near the depth that the movies actually explored

[Anonymous No.7159548]

>>7159496
Check out Matsumoto Taiyou. His SoL stuff is pretty good.

[Anonymous No.7159558]

>>7159545
>it has fanservice and kawai shit in it to attract the mainstream market.
Yeah, no. It has fanservice because Shirou loves that shit.

[Anonymous No.7159581]

>>7159537
Ping Pong is actually a manga too
not sure how good it is

[Anonymous No.7159585]

>>7159581
It's great.

[Anonymous No.7159601]

>>7159519
>>7159537
>>7159548
Yeah, I know these, they are the 'gems' I think I mentioned earlier, along with the 'genre fiction' equivalents (Eden, Onani Master, Berserk, etc).
I used to consume an unhealthy amount of anime and manga, and with the years I focused mostly on 'seinen' stuff, the most trusty label I could to differentiate the silly from the mature... but still, too hard to tell apart the gold from the shit. One day, some years ago I got so fed up with its tropes and the almost inherent silliness of Japanese popular culture I ended up accepting that most of them, even the best ones, only managed to deliver very specific kinds of enjoyment/entertainment, and that they were a poor medium to reflect on, too hard to find decent stuff. I've focused purely on literature ever since, rarely even bothering with TV and film. Last thing I bothered with in the manga media was Punpun.

[Anonymous No.7159654]

>>7159601
Seinen isn't a very good label to look for good things. Really, no label is. I mostly just follow authors that I like or similar authors (assistants,friends, whatever). I still find a decent amount of stuff I like, though it seems that you focus on the writing whereas I focus on the art. I can see why you'd give up if you hold the writing in higher importance.

[Anonymous No.7159852]

Rose of Versailles is honestly better than any YA lit

[Anonymous No.7161558]

No of course not, it's a waste of time. No thinking person should spend valuable time reading manga. To save face: I don't post here often, but manga is definitely something I'd like to see less (read: none) of on this board. I think less of people who read manga instantly. It would be the difference between going out for a beer with you and not. I think you can make a lot of very accurate assumptions about people who read manga, the very first of them being that they've wasted their potential.

[Anonymous No.7161641]

>>7161558
> I
> I
> I

Okusama ga Seito Kaichou! is a modern literary masterpiece

[Anonymous No.7162393]

>>7161641
If by modern masterpiece you mean a piece of shit that nobody's heard of then yes, yes it is.

[Anonymous No.7162519]

>>7161558
hola señor reddit

[Anonymous No.7162534]

>>7162393
fuck off

[Anonymous No.7162669]

who /berserk/ here?

[Anonymous No.7162688]

I'd probably class Yoshihiro Tatsumi and Shigeru Mizuki as literary. No idea about others.

[Anonymous No.7162926]

What about this? It has ambiguous morality, some religious overtones, stuff you don't genrally see in YA or comics. It's definitely trying to do something complex, although it kind of falls off a cliff after L dies.

[Anonymous No.7162931]

>>7162926
Dammit, forgot pic.

[Anonymous No.7163079]

>>7162519
>>7162534

you know I'm right. You're only mad at yourselves for reading manga

[Anonymous No.7163101]

No. Whether or not the content of the literature has any merit makes no difference. Choosing to associate with a weeb, alien culture means you as a reader are intellectually stunted to begin with.

[Anonymous No.7163161]

>>7159601
[Talking about the cinematic limb of texts with visual signs, stemming from Japanese origins]
Those that I know of to be comparable to the literature that is celebrated here, in terms of structural complexity and profoundness of content:
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Kaiba
Mindgame
The Tatami Galaxy
Kino's Journey
Revolutionary Girl Utena
Mawaru Penguindrum (The Revolving Penguindrum..?)
Angel's Egg
The Sad Belladona
Night on the Galactic Railroad
Spring and Chaos
Paranoia Agent
Texhnolyze
Ergo Proxy
Serial Experiments Lain
Boogiepop Phantom
Casshern Sins
Some short movies that I'm not going to bother to name

Those that I haven't watched, but am informed that they should be eligible for the list:
Puella Magi Madoka Magica
Count of Montecristo

Additions can be made, for my knowledge is not complete yet. However, I will not value any attempt of refutation towards the validity of the elements in my present list.

[Anonymous No.7163174]

Not really.

Manga, anime and others of that ilk are too commercialized to produce much of value.

[Anonymous No.7163187]

>>7162926
>>7162931
It's the manga equivalent to a crime thriller/airport novel. Something with a lot of nonsensical plotting and twists that might entertain for a bit but doesn't really have much to say on its own. Also it's padded to shit.

To be fair, it's still pretty enjoyable if you stop right when L died and Light "wins". That's a better conclusion to the story than the actual ending.

[Anonymous No.7163192]

>>7163161
Add Ping Pong the Animation and Welcome to the NHK

[Anonymous No.7163205]

>>7162931
>>7163187
It is explicity stated by the mangakas that Death Note has been conceived devoid of depth, very consciously. The manga was going to be published on a magazine that was demographically focused to young male people (shounen), and the authors deliberately avoided enrichening the themes with philosophy or history or anything of highly intellectual nature. The devices is not that impressive either, so Death Note does not make it. In fact, for reasons you can probably make out, Naruto is a better nominee for literary anime awards, as it were.

[Anonymous No.7163231]

>>7163192
I deny both. I haven't seen any value in Ping-Pong (apart from the stylistic ones) - perhaps it is due to my insufficient insight or background. On the other hand, the NHK anime fails because it is sensationally too romantic (as in Romanticism), unable to highlight its themes in a balanced structure (its pace is off, character developement is all over the place), and lack of innovation and complexity in the devices of communication, unlike all the anime I privileged into my list. I think if we were to allow such two anime, we would be obliged to accept the many that follow, including but not limited to Haibane Renmei, all of Satoshi Kon's movies, Fullmetal Alchemist, Trapeze (Kuuchu Buranko).

Also, I'm reminded of "Mononoke", the series. I think it is worthy of the list, as its visual narrative knows no equal.

[Anonymous No.7163243]

>>7163231
You did watch Ping Pong right?

[Anonymous No.7163249]

>>7163243
I don't know. I guess you're implying I didn't, because I didn't grasp its value. The only way for me to accept that I misinterpreted, or even failed to interpret it in my first attempt, would be if you explained it to me why you rank it as highly as you suggest.

[Anonymous No.7163270]

>>7163249
this guy puts it pretty well
https://finewhiningandbreathing.wordpress.com/2014/07/01/the-journey-to-enlightenment-in-ping-pong-the-animation/

[Anonymous No.7163273]

>>7163161
>Neon Genesis Evangelion
yes
>The Tatami Galaxy
ok if you're in college
>Revolutionary Girl Utena
the unparalleled masterpiece of Japanese Animation, if you haven't watched this (and the movie) you're a sod.
>Mawaru Penguindrum
yes
>Night on the Galactic Railroad
yeah but if you watch penguindrum theres not much point... just read the book im pretty sure its translated
>Serial Experiments Lain
no
>Puella Magi Madoka Magica
yeah but only if you watch the third movie


extra recs from me:
Kare Kano
Sailor Moon, R, S
Rose of Versailles

[Anonymous No.7163286]

>>7163270
Thank you. I'll read the essay, watch Ping-Pong again, and read the essay again or something like that. Even then though, I might decide that the interpretation in the critique is arbitrary, and therefore unrepresentative of the value that Ping-Pong might carry. I care a lot for "what the author meant" (as opposed to the holders of other schools of literary theory), so please excuse me if I persist on my veto.

[Anonymous No.7163310]

>>7163286
The director definitely intended it to have a deeper meaning, just as he did with Kaiba, Mind Game, and the Tatami Galaxy.

[Anonymous No.7163312]

>>7163273
I think The Tatami Galaxy, thrives structurally (how it uses speed, imagery, sound, plot, basically most of the cinematic functions) and therefore is valuable enough.
You are right about Night on the Galactic Railroad, but deem it valuable for one personal reason, one element that it doesn't share with the text which it's adapted from: The symbol of magpies. It's not in the original text, I don't "know for sure" why the makers of the movie added it, but I love it.
I was unsure about Lain too, but... I think even by its resemblance to the overlords (Evangelion, Utena, Kaiba) it may gain weight. Also it has quite innovative (regarding the decadent state of anime industry) scenes and sections, one of them being the "recap episode".
I started Kare Kano, sensed some directorial proficiency, but was underwhelmed by its pace and shallowness, leading to me dropping it before finalé. I might try again in the future.
Haven't watched Sailor Moon, might be valuable, carrying Ikuhara's sign. Although, I must admit that not everything he does is grandoise, as is apparent in his last venue.
Rose of Versailles? I was informed that it is a very commonplace "shoujo". How does it differ itself from the negative bearings of its genre?

[Anonymous No.7163326]

itt: autistic anime patrician pretends to be an intellectual

[Anonymous No.7163336]

>>7163326
I derive joy of pretense, please excuse and avert your eyes, as I think it is more convenient than me speaking never again. By no means I intend harm.

[Anonymous No.7163351]

>>7163310
By the way, I'm curious, are you the blogger of that blog you linked? Or is he another miserable soul from this cosmos? Signs that are prevalent here seem to pervade his discourse.

[Anonymous No.7163359]

>>7163351
Not him friend

[Anonymous No.7163362]

>>7156415
thread should have ended after this post

[Anonymous No.7163395]

>>7163359
What do you mean? Is it you, then? Or anon is not male, therefore deserving representation via another pronoun? Or something else?

By the way, do any of you propose Yuri Kuma Arashi? Maybe I'm missing important clues, as it seems to be the case with Ping-Pong.