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/lit/ - Literature

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7118037 No.7118037 [Reply] [Original]

>I didn't go to writing school, I read books.

>> No.7118046

OH IT SNOWS PAHLANIUK IT SNOWS

>> No.7118147
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7118147

>I went to writing school

>> No.7118300
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7118300

>>7118147
>he didn't go to writing school

>> No.7118309

>>7118037
Well meme'd OP shoot own head tho.

>> No.7118417

>>7118309
>meme'ing this hard
just kill yourself.

>> No.7118421
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7118421

>go through adolensense thinking I don't need education because I'll learn to write through "life experiences"
>tfw it doesn't help and I can't write for shit
>tfw regret not learning actual academic things

>> No.7118425

>>7118421
>life experiences
you didn't read?

>> No.7118426

>>7118421
you have to read, practice writing, and have life experiences

>> No.7118431

>>7118425

I did, but no "classics" and not with any analytical mind or anything like that.

>> No.7118445

>>7118037
pffft reading, y'faggot

>> No.7118453

>>7118431
The classics are short, read them now.

>> No.7118459

>>7118453

I'm amking my way through the /lit/ starter kit already. Yeah, it feels stupid to follow a chart, but Iliterally remember nothing from English class, and I'm not going to fucking start with Infinite Meme or Finnegans Wake.

>> No.7118534

>>7118459
go to your local op shop, buy five books with titles you like, read them and judge accordingly. from what you think was good, research the author/genre, go to op shop again, search for names you have learned, repeat until patrician

>> No.7118543

>>7118459
the starter kit is not so bad. Don't feel bad for following a chart, that's some edgy internalized urge to be special snowflake shit. Did you feel guilt coloring inside the lines as a kid?

>> No.7118660
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7118660

>>7118459
>>7118459
Not a bad start tbh; Starting with the Greeks is a good deal more educational and enjoyable in my opinion however. Don't feel pressured by /lit/ to read certain things (The meme trilogy especially) allow your tastes to grow and you'll have a great reading experience.

>> No.7118679

wf is "life experiences"

>> No.7118802

>>7118679

If you asked my younger self, it meant getting high and loitering.

>> No.7118807

>I didn't go to writing school, I went to books

>> No.7118822

>>7118802
>he didn't spend his youth playing semi pro rugby, huntin big gameg, working security at New York fashion week and hiking the Appalachian trail
Not gonna make it brah

>> No.7119835

>>7118037
I wonder at what point the added time of trying to learn everything on one's own exceeds the cost of going to school.
I really do wonder; it's very relevant to me

>> No.7119861

>>7118660
any reason why the Heaney translation isn't the preferred Beowulf edition?

>> No.7119877

>>7118037
So does a degree etc. from a writing school bode well for one's career? Yes, it is possible to break in without one, but does such a credential maybe better one's chances of success?

>> No.7119880
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7119880

>writing school

>> No.7119890

>>7119877
The bestseller lists are not exactly saturated with MFA grads. MFAs have very low admission rates, who they admit is pretty much up to the tastes of a handful of faculty and even then they're playing the odds game of training as many as they can afford and only a small percentage of their graduates actually being good.

>>7119835
I'd say an undergraduate degree in literature, philosophy or history is worth ten or so years of all but the most brilliant and focused autodidact's time if you make good use of the time and develop relationships with faculty and colleagues.

It's a wash if you're talking about someone coasting through a state school with the bare minimum of effort.

>> No.7119897

>>7119835
much longer than 4 years

>> No.7119914

>>7119890
Ah yes, it's very much whom you know.
See? I can use Whom correctly, and look where it's gotten me.

>> No.7119932

>>7119914
Eh, I'm pretty tight with an old guy who used to teach in MFA programs and he says it's basically a meat market that can't guarantee you anything. Ultimately agents and publishers only care about whether your book will sell, and not so much about making nice with your professors.

>> No.7120463

>>7118822
If you didn't spend your youth racking up countless wins in street fights, having numerous sexual encounters, wild parties and creating a metaphysical treaties - all while remaining relatively untouched by the world, with a massive desire to experience it then I'm sorry, you be realizing godhead in this lifetime

>> No.7121727

>>7118822
those are some really random things you chose to be proud of, but to each their own i guess

>> No.7121748

>>7120463
>tfw no metaphysical treaties
Why even live?

>>7121727
Okay, what have you done that you're more proud of than those things?

>> No.7121757

>is handsome and masculine
>writes for a living
>books aren't high art but are fun and introduce younger people and perhaps less sophisticated people to philosophical concepts like existentialism and modern alienation
He's not Updike but he's not Stephanie Meyer either. You on the other hand will never be paid to write, will work for someone else until you die and are probably ugly

>> No.7121762

>>7121757
>Updike
>good
Pulitzer jury pls go.

>> No.7122039

>>7118822
Hunting big gameg isn't cool man

>> No.7122065

Chuck fucked himself over after a few books.

Reading his essays on the craft showed me how.

Too bad because he's talented and has great ideas, but gets too excited by breathing his own farts.

>establish authority by

>using head
>using heart

>head means you'll write trivia about facts to show your reader the narrator knows his shit

>heart means narrator will admit to unspeakable secrets to gain your trust

>ensues dozens of pages of trivia and weird anecdotes

>they serve no other purpose

I don't suggest we shouldn't use this method, but doing so to the extent he does ends up in pages upon pages of shit nobody cares about and that goes nowhere.

Diary is the worst novel I've ever read, for that reason.

>> No.7122073

I got an MA in English and French literature, and then some, and I can tell you there's a difference between studying lit and writing.

Sadly, much of lit studies is about fantasising, regurgitating others' words, and sounding smart and deep, whether you are or not (not saying it never is, but it isn't always).

There's a part of writing that has to do with who you are, and that cannot be learned. Talent can't be learned. You can learn the craft, to a relative degree, but there are few truly golden rules.

Just do your thing as best as you can. Stop worrying.

>> No.7122087

>tfw most, if not all, writers i admire went to college to study either literature or writing.
>tfw studying engineering because i am south america and i have to struggle to not stay poor
>tfw hating every moment of it and wishing i could do something artistic instead

>> No.7122091

Who /MFA/ here?

>tfw paid to study
>tfw teach part-time, maybe 10 hours a week
>tfw dating one of my students and another has an obvious crush on me
>tfw will happily teach creative writing part-time after I graduate
>tfw novel is almost complete and my teachers and peers say it's "generation-defining"
>tfw I get to wake up at 9:30am each day while normie wagecucks are at their desks or behind their counters feeling depressed

Sucks to you loser

>> No.7122092

Here's a suggestion that will help: read books on writing. Stop having this romanticised idea that "life experiences" will make you, somehow, a writer. They won't, as you have now discovered. The problem is you now think that just reading classics will accomplish this. It won't, either.

At best, you'll end up writing as well as one of these classic authors, and in most cases it'll mean nobody will publish your work. Why? Because we don't live centuries ago anymore and if you wrote like Poe, people would wonder why you're acting weird, rightly so.

Read classics, yes, but for the very enjoyment of it. Read contemporary authors too, to get the feel of it.

But yeah, read some books on the craft, not necessarily to apply everything they say, but to know what writers think of when they write. If anything, it'll make you feel more confident because you'll actually be thinking about the craft as a separate thing, and not just romantic ideas of life experiences and academic studies.

>> No.7122094

>>7122087
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Wolfe

Gene Wolfe studied engineering and worked as an engineer for a long time. He even designed some tool to make chips.

Now he's a legendary sci-fi author that is respected well beyond the genre.

Don't lost hope.

>> No.7122102

>>7122091
>>tfw dating one of my students
Shouldn't your place of employment have rules against that?

>> No.7122114

>>7122102
Probably :)

What's the matter, kid, you jealous?

>> No.7122125

>>7122087
If you really think you need college to learn about literature (which you don't) then do this:
>become an engeener
>get money
>move out the country
>go to college at age 28 with money, interest, life experience and some knowledge on literature
it's never too late

>> No.7122126

>>7122094
Gene Wolfe is a shit writer. Stop with this meme.

A better example is Stewart O'Nan, who also studied Engineering.

>>7122125
Stupid advice.

>wait until you're an old man who has worked 60+ hour weeks and somehow gained "experience" as a result

>> No.7122174

>>7122091
Give us an excerpt of your generation defining novel. You can barely even write bait faggot.

>> No.7122180

>>7122174
It's ok to be jealous and dismissive :)

>> No.7122189

>>7122114
No, not really, just... if that's actually your "real life" and you try to "make it as a writer", then having intercourse with one of your students is a career-destroying move.

>> No.7122191

>>7122126
then just study literature and be poor, so faggots on /lit/ will think high on you.

>> No.7122198

>>7122189
Nah not really. It's pretty common in academia.

>> No.7122206

>>7122094
>respected well beyond the genre.
haha no

>> No.7122220

>>7122180
By avoiding my point you proved it, faggot.

>> No.7122384

>>7121748
When I was 19 I shot and killed the man who was trying to rob the hardware store I was working at during the time

>> No.7122428

why not both?

>> No.7123012

>>7122091
I'm afraid that nobody with your attitude has ever really done anything worth remembering anon. I hope you are happy but if your ambition is to be remembered then I'm afraid that it won't be fulfilled

>> No.7123041

>>7118037
Birds ate my face...FLASH

..loved that book when i was 17

>> No.7123052

>>7119914
how do u use whom correctly?

>> No.7123087

>>7123052
Basically 'whom' is used for the grammatical object ('who' is reserved for the subject). One test is that 'whom' can be replaced with 'him' (or 'her', 'me', etc.) whereas 'who' is replaced with 'he'. So you wouldn't say 'It's he you know' (i.e., 'you know he') but rather 'It's him you know'/'You know him.'

>> No.7123135

>>7118037

Name anyone before the 60s who studied something like creative writing or an MFA in writing who is considered "great". Most GOAT authors had other professions. If you need to be taught how to be creative then you aren't every really going to create anything worthwhile.

Those who can't do, take MFAs

>> No.7123300

>>7123135
what? most great authors went to college to study something related to writing. Languages, linguistics, philosophy etc.

>> No.7123318

>>7122384
Fucking boss. That must have been an ordeal afterwards though.

I support your decision and wish you the best, anon.

>> No.7123347

>>7123135
Sounds like somebody didn't get into an MFA program

>> No.7123362

>>7122087
Are you me?

Except I would lose all respect for myself if I went to "writing school". In other words I can never be happy

>> No.7123363

Guys, where is this infamous writing school? How can I go to the writing school?

>> No.7123366

>>7122039
Oh but it is. It indirectly saves a lot of the big game you're actually killing.

>> No.7123486

>>7123300

Agreed many auothors studied something lit related but not something wanky like an MFA in creative writing

>implying I'd want to study an MFA

I've actually always wanted to do fine art tbh, but finance/law master race here

Tolstoy - Law and oriental languages
Kafka - Law
Hesse - None
Mann - Insurance agent
Goethe - Law
Proust - Neet
Brönte's - Neet
Franzen - German
Harper Lee - Law
Asimov - Chemistry/Bio
Dickens - Don't know
Twain - Printer
Camus - Phil
HG Wells - Bio
Dovstoyetsky - Military engineering
Faulkner - Dropout, D in english
Conrad - Merchant Marine
Döblin - Medicine

I could go on...

>> No.7123493

>>7123486
so please go, i am interested.

>> No.7123496

>not shaving that shit hairline

>> No.7123502

>>7123486
Do you know any writer that thought school/college was unbearable? I am an engineering student in a great university but i really can't stop feeling bad because of my inability to enjoy going to classes.

>> No.7123549

>>7123502

Most of the people in that list dropped out or hated what they did but stuck to it.. Don't drop out bro.. Goethe hated law for example.. Everyone has to eat sand at some point brah, I have an accounting exam in two weeks but at the end of the day you have to pay rent.. It's better to keep your /lit/ related ambitions independant of what you do to make a living initially I think, it's broadens your character IMO.. Most MFA fuccboi's I know write for C list films or write copy for peanuts in journalism or advertising..

>> No.7123599

>>7123493

Nin
Lawrence
Hardy
Eliot

Look, I'm just trying to compensate for the fact that I think my ex is dating a liteary prodidgy MFA student and I can't deal with the feel.. He's german tho..

>> No.7123764

>>7123366
I don't believe you anon. It's certainly not as cool as working security at New York Fashion week

>> No.7123775

>>7123599
Wow
My condolences, man

Channel that into a work, I guess

>> No.7123795

>>7123599
That sucks. My ex went to a way better school than I did and is dating someone from there now.

Fortunately most MFA grads don't go on to distinguished careers, though some people get so caught up in the credentials that they'll estimate them way too highly.

>>7123764
I'm the guy that did both, and yes, trophy hunting is now managed in such a way that it's a net benefit to the population. Weeding out super old males is great for the gene pool, increases fertility and provides wildly disproportionate financial incentive to preserve the population relative to the harvest, which is very important when it comes time for a rancher to decide whether to quadruple his cattle herd and wipe out the wildlife on his land, or find a way to cash in on the hunting market.

>> No.7123819

>>7123764
I was about to explain, but here bud; >>7123795

>> No.7123884

>>7123135
Flannery O'Connor

Not that it redeems the MFA program, but there are good writers who went through it.

>> No.7123998

>>7123795
I was being facetious but it's good to hear you were doing it responsibly.

>> No.7124167

>>7123135
The best use of the modern MFA program is as a replacement for the boulevard/cafe culture that no longer exists. It puts you in close, friendly/competitive/constructive contact with other writers and spurs your work forward.

>> No.7124193

>>7123300
I don't know about most, but yeah, plenty did. Philip Larkin, James Wright, Allen Ginsberg, Gerald Stern, Jack Gilbert, Jeffrey Eugenides, Michael Chabon, John D'Agata, and Juno Diaz, off the top of my head, all either got MFAs or studied in a closely related field.

>> No.7124402

>>7124193

but absolutely not one of the names you listed were good poets or novelists. uh?

>> No.7124406

>>7124402
Not that anon. Some very successful ones there though. (I'd like to think the MFA isn't necessary though.)

>> No.7124560

>>7122126
>28 is "old man"

ayyyylmao

>> No.7124770

>tfw i will never be able to become a good writer because i graduated in medicine and now i have to work like crazy

>> No.7124797

>>7123486

>Dovstoyetsky - Military engineering
>Faulkner - Dropout, D in english

I fell like I'm being memed, 1 sec, I'll google this.

>> No.7124802

>>7124797

Wow, those were true. Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing, anon.

>> No.7124848

>>7123486
>Franzen - German
Being german.
Now a profession.

>> No.7124910

>>7124848

He studied German fam..

>> No.7124920

>>7124167

Alienation and feels make the best authors tbh fam

>> No.7124935

>>7124167
>Impliying the boulevard/cafe culture disappeared

Well, maybe in your suburban american shithole, where human relations are utterly frivolous and trivial.

>> No.7124962

>>7124167
Yeah, and the fact that you need to be a grad student to get there mostly filters out all but the well-manicured, intellectually priggish upper middle class. The lack of diversity and openness kills exactly what " friendly/competitive/constructive contact with other writers" is supposed to provide.

It wouldn't be so bad if those fuckers didn't also close ranks and make it difficult for those outside of the tribe to get published.

>> No.7125031
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7125031

>huh

>> No.7125038

>>7125031
DFW wasn't too keen on the MFA system though. He used it as a chance to get paid to read and write, but he badmouthed it overall.

>> No.7126047

>>7123012
Slave mentality

>> No.7126418

>>7122189

I fucked two of my university tutors during my undergrad, tbh they probably wouldn't go around blabbing to their boss about it though

>> No.7126427

>>7121748

I haven't achieved much but when I was 20 I found an injured emu (presumedly hit by a car but not killed) that was dying in pain. I smashed its head to pieces with a rock to put it out of its suffering.

This was in the middle of a seven day solo camping journey as well, I hadn't seen another human in three days and spent the next four days in isolation, hiking all day thinking about it.

>> No.7126592

>>7126047
It's just a simple fact anon

>> No.7126648

>>7124935
>human relations are anything but utter feces

>> No.7126655

>>7126592
Nah not really. Anyway we'll see when my book is published. I have a dinner meeting with a representative from Little, Brown and Co soon, let's see what she says :)

>> No.7126711

all MFA writers write the same. this is the reason 1st person narration is so popular, everyone has to couch their prose in character voice or they'd be identical.

>> No.7126728

>>7126711
Aww, did someone not get accepted into an MFA?

>> No.7126731
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7126731

>>7124770
>tfw halfway International Studies and realized I will never become a good writer or work like crazy

>> No.7126732

>>7126728
just an observation from a reader, guey

>> No.7126749

>>7126732
>MFA programs today serve less as hotbeds of fierce stylistic inculcation, or finishing schools for almost-ready writers (in the way of, say, Iowa in the '70s), and more as an ingenious partial solution to an eminent American problem: how to extend our already protracted adolescence past 22 and toward 30, in order to cope with an oversupplied labor market.

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2010/11/mfa_vs_nyc.html

>> No.7126757

>>7126731
What were you thinking fam tbh?

>> No.7126876

>>7126757
I don't know, I wish I could change but it's too late now