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/lit/ - Literature

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7087962 No.7087962 [Reply] [Original]

so I'm starting the iliad, what can I expect of it /lit/?

>> No.7087970

A lot of gore and death

>> No.7087971

thousands of pages describing flying spears and people eating sand.

>> No.7087972

A bit of the old ultra violence

>> No.7087982

well that sounds fucking cool

>> No.7087986

>>7087962
an epic.

>> No.7087993

>people constantly throwing huge rocks around like they're the hulk

It's the capeshit of it's time.

>> No.7088023

>>7087962
Fatalism.

>> No.7088030

>>7087962
I have tried to read this so many times but it is very complicated and I can never understand what is going on.Any supplementary material I can use to assist me ?

>> No.7088062

>>7088030

>very complicated

but how? Most of its messages are pretty straightforward. You didn't get the mythos behind the metaphors or just couldnt follow the narration? If it's the former, just read a wiki on greek mythology, if it's the latter it's a matter of getting used to it.

>> No.7088069

>>7087971
And names, lots of names.

>> No.7088164

don't expect the fall of troy or the death of Akhilleus
expect badassery from Diomedes

>> No.7088175

>>7088030
It's easy to follow lad. Are you trying to rememebr all the names or something? Just read along and you'll know what's going on. Remember it's an oral poem; back in the day people just listened along with it.

>> No.7088189

Just a badass fucking poem

>> No.7088194

>>7088030
read slowly and make sure you understand every sentance, even if you have to re read them.
Youll eventually get used to the style.
This of course depends on the translation, i read popes.

>> No.7088220

If this is your first Greek work, remember that it isn't about the characters at all; it is about the Gods. The men are just pawns for the gods, basically. Also there will be points where you'll have to read a ton of names, but don't feel as if you need to recall exactly who killed who. Just remember the big names, which will become clear as the story is setup

>> No.7088553

>>7088220
It's about the gods. Time for you to reread the books.

>> No.7088572
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7088572

>>7088220
>it's about the gods
Just one slice of the pie buddy

>> No.7088577

>>7087962

Not to hijack, but does anyone have recommendations for english translations of this? I saw the comment recommending Popes, but are there others, perhaps better?

>> No.7088584

>>7088220
yea but the cool thing about greek gods, is that their relatable and people can fuck with them.

>> No.7088612

It's shit, watch the movie instead.

I'm dead serious.

>> No.7088617

reading through it now, its fucking intense. The gods are like a regular familiar family quarreling with each other and the fighting on the ground is action packed.

>> No.7088630

>>7088553
What? Maybe give my post a Reread
>>7088572
Ok. Im only saying that the book is partially about the power of the gods. That's quite obviously not all the book is about.

>> No.7088637

>>7088577
pope is great but it's nothing like homer, read fagles or lattimore

>> No.7088639
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7088639

>>7088584
>Diomedes stabbing a spear through Aphrodite's hand and then trying to challenge Apollo

>> No.7088677

>>7087962
>Like x animal chasing y prey

>> No.7088678

>>7088577
If you're coming to Homer for the first time, start wi th Fagles. Very readable, accurate but not academic, and it maintains the accepted and familiar renderings of names without tortured greek transliterations (looking at you, fucking fitzgerald). Also, the introductory essays by Bernard Knox are fucking fantastic.

Real men read Chapman, tbh.

>> No.7088768

>>7088678
but latin names in a greek story just doesn't do it for me

>> No.7088775

>>7088768
Fitzgerald is excellent; the names are a matter of taste. Telemachus or Tēlemakhos

>> No.7088790

Can anyone explain to me why Achilles kept saying he was gonna take his shit and go home but he just hung out and watched the Achians get their asses handed to them by Based Hektor?

was achilles a little bitch?

>> No.7088874

>>7088790
hektor is a huge cuck and the only reason he ever killed anyone is because zeus needed him to bait out Achilles

>> No.7088876

>>7088790
He didn't really want to leave, he was playing hard to get

>> No.7088895

>>7087962
By the way, not OP, but what's a good Spanish translation?

>> No.7088908

>>7088790
You're looking at it with modern ethics. Achilles was dishonoured by Agamemnon; he stuck by his honour and refused to fight for a man who dishonoured him, even when tempted back into battle with gifts of gold and flesh. His bestfriend, soul-mate even, died in the battle for Troy. He realised he must die in order for his friend to be avenged and to remain virtuous, or he could choose to live, but live a dishonoured life with his greatest love unavenged.

In other words he wasn't a bitch and he would bitch slap the fuck of you if you said that to his face

>> No.7088935

>>7088908
I could beat him up tbqh (to be quite honest)

>> No.7088952

>>7088790
Because he travelled there knowing that he would die in order to be remembered for ever for having a shit load of arete. When Agamenon removed his prize in battle (a woman), he essentially denied Achilles his arete and thus his turn in history. And Achilles was having non of that shit and decided for the option 2, living a fullfilled life with his greatest love, but then that friend died so there was only one option left. Going apeshit on the Trojans.

>> No.7089239

>>7088895
eres hispanohablante? [do you know spanish?] I'm OP btw.

>> No.7089257

>>7087962
a list of ships

>> No.7089283

>>7089257
people who don't just skip the catalog are autistic

>> No.7089290

>>7089239
Sí. A veces compro libros en inglés por Amazon pero en este caso creo que preferiría comprarlo en castellano.

>> No.7089326

a fan fiction story about a cast of heros from 3000 years ago. Its kind of like that super smash brother epic

>> No.7089337

>>7089326
>The Bible
>The Aeneid
>The Talmud
>The Divine Comedy
>Orlando Furioso
>Paradise Lost
>Shakespeare's first tetralogy

>> No.7089338

>>7089290
En ese caso, no sabría recomendarte realmente a algún traductor concreto, pero quizás te convendría comprar las ediciones de las editoriales españolas más importantes: Alianza Editorial, Cátedra (como la de la foto del post original), Debolsillo... Tal vez no sean las mejores ediciones que puedas encontrar, y hay algún literato por ahí que haya hecho una traducción mucho mejor, pero las editoriales que he mencionado son sin duda editoriales de confianza, y no llevan décadas en el negocio por nada. Yo estoy utilizando la de Cátedra, porque me gustó más que la de Alianza. Espero haberte ayudad, anon.

>> No.7089363

>>7089338
Es un buen consejo. Gracias OP.

>> No.7089374

>what can I expect of it /lit/?
F U C K O F F
U
C
K
O
F
F

>> No.7089376

>>7088874
>implying Achilles wasn't being cucked by Agamemnon

everyone in this whole book gets cucked. Paris' old girlfriend, Menelaus, Hektor, Achilles, Odysseus, Agamemnon.

I'm starting to think homer was a cuck

>> No.7090187

>>7088790
Most people seem to forget that prior to the very beginning of the story at the sack of Apollos temple, the Achaeans driven primarily by the prowess of Achilles had taken 12 cities of the Trojan kingdom in the last 9 years. Achilles rightfully understood that he was the principle force of their success, which was proven very clearly by the Achaeans nearly collapsing against Hector with Achilles absence.

People act like Achilles was unreasonable, but he was carrying their entire army, and wasn't going to take any amount of disrespect for it.

>> No.7090363

I'm only up to book 6, but goddamn this book is based
>Odysseus whooping some soldier's ass for being disrespectful
>Helen shitting on Paris for being a pussy
>Diomedes taking on every god by himself
>Aphrodite and Ares whining to Zeus and getting BTFO

Why did nobody warn me this book was so fun? And meanwhile Achilles is still sulking on the beach doing nothing, he'd better be preparing to do some epic shit

>> No.7090397

>>7090363
Diomedes is one of the baddest motherfuckers in the western canon

>> No.7090404

>>7090363
>Odysseus whooping some soldier's ass for being disrespectful
Odysseus was such a prick.

>> No.7090436

is lattimore not recommended for a beginner?

>> No.7090440

>>7090363
Despite how wildly renowned the final rage of Achilles is, people rarely have an accurate conception of just how immense of an event it was. Achilles brought the wrath of God upon Troy, he wasn't just some exceptional warrior.

I would paint a detailed picture of it, but I'll just let you read it yourself

>> No.7090458

>>7090363
>>7090404
It wasn't just some soldier Odysseus beat, it was the scoundrel Thersites, the man who years before assassinated the grandfather of Diomedes and went undiscovered. He was said to be a vulgar, dishonorable man, dull of mind and ugly in appearance

>> No.7090470

>>7090458
In a wider context, Thersites represents the hideous, vulgar and disgraceful aspect of the Achaean forces, the only man to speak ill of Achilles calling him greedy and a coward, despite the fact that many thought the same privately.

Odysseus beating Thersites was not just an act of rebuking such vile behavior in him, but also in himself and the others as they decided what to do without Achilles. Odysseus knew that they absolutely could not turn against Achilles no matter what happened.

Thersites is used to represent this ugly aspect of the Achaeans a few other times in different stories

>> No.7090507

>>7088775
the latin is too burned into my head that even while reading Fitzgerald I could only think of them in their latin names. I mostly just view the names as symbol indicators for the characters anyway.

>> No.7090528
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7090528

>after the war Achilles son makes Hektors wife his sex slave

The Greeks were crazy about their heros all having interactions with each other. Its like an ancient soap opera

>> No.7090534

>>7090440
what do you mean he brought the wrath of God upon Troy? what God?

>> No.7090544

It shouldn't have been called the iliad, it should have been called the Achilliad or the Hectiad. It skipped like 90% of the war just to showcase the rivalry between the two overpowered heros

>> No.7090558

>>7088612
Which one? Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief?

>> No.7090562

>>7090534
Himself. Nigga battle cried so hard he killed like 12 people before the first fucking sword swing. Man was a mobile human meat grinder.

>> No.7091164

>>7090534
You're not seeing the full mural of the way Achilles rampage is described.

Just imagine it from the point of view of Hector. He's watched as Achilles crests the hill to where his army is camped, the sun rising behind him in perfect unison with his radiant white armor forged by Hephaestus, and immediately broke his army in two, half of them fleeing back to the gates of Troy, and the other half driven into the river Troy is built upon, where they are tripping over themselves in panic, falling to the ground and begging while Achilles grotesquely massacres them as if they were sacrificial animals. Hector is watching as his shattered army retreats into Troy and sees the river fill with torrents of blood and butchered bodies until it becomes choked with them. The god of this river Xanthos is threatened by Achilles rage and pulls the waters of the river back and unleashes a devastating flood of blood and dismembered corpses upon Achilles. Hephaestus sends the fires of his forge on the winds and desiccates Xanthos, scorching the land around the river to ashes and withering the water to nothing.

Hector has just watched Achilles slaughter half of his army until he was carried by a flood of their blood and bodies in front of the gates of Troy, where he was then bathed in fire that rained from the sky and desolated his land, the billowing smoke from this he emerges, his white armor still gleaming, and he begins charging toward him and the door to his city followed by this horrific cloud of burnt bodies and thick like blood.

>> No.7091199

>>7091164
So fuckin metal

Only poem that makes me wanna do deadlifts reading it

>> No.7091271

>>7091199
It honestly might be among the most metal things ever written. It portrays in so much detail Hector as this man who's fighting for love and his home, with a loving wife and newborn child, with a family that loves him along with all the people of Troy, who see him as their protector, specifically with the intent of making the horror and pain they all feel when Achilles kills him and desecrates his body in front of them sick and pitiful. Achilles was getting drunk off of the broken sobs and suffering of Hectors wife, knowing that he was flaying her heart by taking away her love and the father of her child. It's such an immense act of cruelty.

>> No.7091293

>>7091271
Nah bro, Hector was himself full of hubris and had defied the gods earlier. He was no better than Achilles.

>> No.7091305

Just for posterity, the fagles translation is the one people should read?

>> No.7091316

>>7091305
Dont you dare destroy the thread with this fucking question! I WILL END YOU ANON!

>> No.7091321

>>7091293
>>7091293
Hector got slightly arrogant when he was winning against the Greeks, pushing his army further than he should have so he could burn their ships. He was reckless in his decision to have his forces camp outside of the Greeks. Both of these decisions he repented for.

It's actually a deeply important aspect of his character in the full scale of the story on a symbolic level of that Hector is a far more honorable and righteous man than Achilles. It's how he works as a foil. I mean, Achilles sadistically butchers cowering men begging for their lives and disgraces their bodies before their loved ones

>> No.7091324

>>7091305
No, Lattimore.

>> No.7091359

>>7090397

I'm interested in this Diomedes, just how bad is he exactly? Shit I might be reading the Illiad now that I've avoided it for so long, it sounds like fun.

>> No.7091392

>>7091359
He's actually the most noble and just of all the Greek commanders who always champions the honorable decision. He's the youngest of them, having become king of Argos at 16 but also the wisest, holding the role as Athenas favorite mortal and her avatar

>> No.7091417

>>7091321
Actually you are wrong and the scholars disagree with you. Professors like Nagy both say the Achilles was perceived as far more honourable then Hector who was perceived as a coward and arrogant during the time.

>> No.7091501

>>7087962
boredom

>> No.7091753

>>7091392
>>7091359
>>7090397
>all these Diomedes dickriders

I could kill a hundred guys with my bare hands if I received several stacked buffs from the gods too

Hurr

>> No.7091783

Es espanol? Recomendo las traduciones brasilenas de Odorico Mendes, Carlos Alberto Nunes, e Haroldo de Campos. Son muy buenas.

>> No.7093634

Glad these 'master-morality' cultures are extinct. They were really stupid tbh