10/10

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Anonymous Mon Sep 7 13:24:56 2015 No.7084092 [Reply] [Original]

10/10

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 13:27:03 2015 No.7084098 Latro in the Mist - 11/10

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 13:29:10 2015 No.7084104 >>7084092 >genre fiction

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 13:30:19 2015 No.7084107 >>7084104 i thought this was one of the few fiction books /lit/ approved?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 13:32:22 2015 No.7084115 >>7084107 Sf is widely read by people who actually read. Those who don't meme >genre fiction

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 13:36:22 2015 No.7084131 >>7084107 He's a memer

Anonymous Mon Sep 7 13:51:47 2015 No.7084199

"No intellect is needed to see those figures who wait beyond the void of death —every child is aware of them, blazing with glories dark or bright, wrapped in authority older than the universe. They are the stuff of our earliest dreams, as of our dying visions. Rightly we feel our lives guided by them, and rightly too we feel how little we matter to them, the builders of the unimaginable, the fighters of wars beyond the totality of existence.

The difficulty lies in learning that we ourselves encompass forces equally great. We say, “I will,” and “I will not,” and imagine ourselves (though we obey the orders of some prosaic person every day) our own masters, when the truth is that our masters are sleeping. One wakes within us and we are ridden like beasts, though the rider is but some hitherto unguessed part of ourselves."

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 14:05:15 2015 No.7084253 >>7084104 >not gene fiction

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 14:13:54 2015 No.7084277 >>7084199 I'll have to reread it soon.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 14:58:50 2015 No.7084459 Best writers I've read are Huysmans, Pynchon, Wolfe, Hemingway and Strindberg in that order. It's amazing that Wolfe is a genre writer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 14:59:56 2015 No.7084468 >>7084092 I need to hurry up and read the 4th book so i can reread the whole series and actually understand some of those crazy subplots.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 15:04:53 2015 No.7084490 It's a shame how many people consider Urth to be optional. I'm nearing the end of it, and there are some intensely beautiful moments.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 15:22:19 2015 No.7084561 >>7084199 Holy shit I wrote this part down the first time I read it

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 15:51:32 2015 No.7084700 >>7084490 Indeed, but it's optional in a sense that Wolfe was basically forced to write it.

Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:16:51 2015 No.7084828

>>7084459
>It's amazing that Wolfe is a genre writer
It's amazing how many of you pretentious, talentless twats simply don't understand that a good writer can use genre fiction to convey deeper meanings and explore an infinite number of ideas.

TL;DR
You're surprised that genre writers can be good because you're an idiot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:29:40 2015 No.7084874 >>7084828 There are no top tier genre writers except Wolfe though

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:35:08 2015 No.7084896 File: 99 KB, 768x1024, 124181233221.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] How do you stoop to this? I bet you also like superhero movies.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:35:11 2015 No.7084897 >>7084874 Le Guin is at least as good as him.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:36:47 2015 No.7084901 >>7084874 >there is no Wolfe but Wolfe

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:37:23 2015 No.7084903 >>7084897 She is good and so is Dick and Tolkien and a lot of other sf and fantasy, but none are nearly as good as Wolfe.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:37:59 2015 No.7084907 File: 28 KB, 576x440, 11012891_424930504333895_2091031232140424979_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7084874 Peake, Stapledon, Zelazny, Vance, LeGuin Though Wolfe is king of them all

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:41:05 2015 No.7084921 >>7084907 There are really a lot of good ones, it's a really big movement, lots of reading to be done.

Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:42:05 2015 No.7084927

>>7084897
Not at all, she's a good genre writer and that's it. Some decent insights into antropology and modern fairy tale writing but nowhere near Big Gene.

>>7084907
No, those are just genre writers. I understand this makes them same as Wolfe at a glance. Best way to describe Wolfe would be if Cormac McCarthy only wrote westerns and all were like Blood Meridian.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:42:09 2015 No.7084928 >>7084903 I disagree.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:43:24 2015 No.7084932 Wolfe fans are the most deluded faggots on /lit/. Which one of you pricks is the sad cunt who converted to Catholicism because of The Book of the New Sun? Lmao.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:43:45 2015 No.7084934 >>7084932 sorry for liking a great book.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:45:21 2015 No.7084938 This has gotten old, I like an outrageous shill as much as the next guy but Wolfe is just a lesser Chesterton.

Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:48:40 2015 No.7084956

>>7084932
It was me, tastefully enlightened one.
>>7084927
How exactly do you divide things into genre and non genre? It's a really dumb, it's either a good or a bad book. What does exactly genre meaningfully add to the thing?
>>7084938
Wolfe is superior.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:49:08 2015 No.7084959 >>7084938 no one is shilling. we are simply discussing an author we enjoy reading. calm your autism

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:50:24 2015 No.7084962 so wait... what was the test severian had to go through at the very end of the series? the one that all the other autarchs before him had failed?

Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:51:10 2015 No.7084967

>>7084956
Of course genre needs to be defined if it's clear that someone writes within its confines, what kind of question is that? Genre represents a working environment, aesthetic intent, thematic focus and more often than not, cliches. That is why it's strange that Wolfe oversteps its limitation with ease while remaining strictly a fantasy writer (with a measure of sci-fi thrown in).

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:53:57 2015 No.7084986 >>7084959 Try to do it without denigrating other authors and perhaps you will be met with less hostility.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:54:54 2015 No.7084993 >>7084986 whos done that?

Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:55:49 2015 No.7085001

>>7084962
The test was the ship itself and the whole New Sun. But why he had to do it I'm not completely sure. He had to be worthy that's certain.
>>7084967
You do realize that every novel can be placed into genre that way? It's called a literary movement. You know, romanticism, realism, baroque, middle ages.
All have cliches, themes, aesthetic intent and a working environment? Have you ever had a literature class in high school? This is basic knowledge.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:56:04 2015 No.7085003 >>7084927 Blood Meridian are almost the same novel.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:57:19 2015 No.7085009 >>7084828 If what you write has literary merit, why does it matter if it's science fiction or fantasy?

Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:58:56 2015 No.7085019

>>7085001
>You do realize that every novel can be placed into genre that way? It's called a literary movement. You know, romanticism, realism, baroque, middle ages.
All have cliches, themes, aesthetic intent and a working environment? Have you ever had a literature class in high school? This is basic knowledge.

No they cannot. I would further explain how Edgar Allan Poe refutes everything you said but I don't like your tone so I won't reply to you anymore.

Anonymous Mon Sep 7 16:59:47 2015 No.7085024

>>7085001
Book of the New Sun is a lot like the Truman Show, its all a play, but Severian never quite figures that out. The point was to mold Severian into the sort of person that would create the civilization that would led to the creation of the heriodules. So the test wasn't on Severian, its was more testing if those conditions were met yet.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:00:30 2015 No.7085030 >>7085024 BotNS is the MGS 2 of literature

Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:03:51 2015 No.7085044

>>7085009
Depends, if you pretend to be a patrician on a literature board and let memes form your opinions.
>>7085019
>No they cannot. I would further explain how Edgar Allan Poe refutes everything you said but I don't like your tone so I won't reply to you anymore.
Ah ok, Poe wasn't a member of Romanticism and didn't write about things people wrote in that movement and didn't have a era and wasn't influenced by people before him and influence others after him, sure.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:07:01 2015 No.7085064 >>7085024 Yeah, makes sense. Forgot that, it's imo the least interesting aspect of the novel and when I ponder on it I rarely remember it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:29:09 2015 No.7085172 File: 51 KB, 171x170, 0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] why not read something like in search of lost time instead? Why do you insist on keeping around "an unusual fantasy books stuff happens" genre?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:32:33 2015 No.7085187 >>7085172 people can read both you know

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:33:20 2015 No.7085192 >>7085187 no. NO! you can only read one or the other you fucking faggot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:34:35 2015 No.7085199 >>7085192 ah fuck I forgot, time to go back to suckin dicks

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:34:52 2015 No.7085201 >>7085192 I like your shitpost style kid; I'll send you an invite to join the gang ;)

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:42:46 2015 No.7085242 >>7085172 It's like reading one authors and liking him and reading someone similar. So first Proust, then Wolfe.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:46:33 2015 No.7085261 >>7085172 Proust is Wolfe's favorite author. He quotes him a few times in Book of the New Sun.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:47:22 2015 No.7085265 >>7085261 Isn't Chesterton his favorite?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:49:21 2015 No.7085276 I'm just finishing up Peace right now. What a read. I couldn't really get into it til Smart starts telling the story about the circus people. But after that it gets into a grove. Just so weird.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:52:52 2015 No.7085300 >>7085265 It can be both.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:54:56 2015 No.7085309 >>7085261 >>7085265 And I'd've thought Borges was.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:56:15 2015 No.7085312 >>7085309 Those three I guess. I liked Chesterton the most.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 17:59:24 2015 No.7085323 >>7085309 >>7085265 >>7085261 It's almost like he has influences. But where does he quote Proust in BotNS? I only know that he does in Fifth Head of Cerberus.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 18:22:45 2015 No.7085413 >>7085323 I'm pretty sure that "That we are capable only of being what we are remains are unforgivable sin." is a direct quote.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 18:25:47 2015 No.7085426 >>7084092 The only reason I won't read this book is because of how dumb his mask looks

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 18:30:42 2015 No.7085449 >>7085426 but you can imagine any mask you want!

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 18:31:33 2015 No.7085453 File: 641 KB, 661x763, severian_amano.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7085426 Then how does this mask look?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 18:34:49 2015 No.7085477 >>7085449 It's too late, I am weak.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 20:11:31 2015 No.7085845 >>7084490 Eh I think the first 2/3s of it are pretty shit. The final act is amazing, some of the best stuff Wolfe has written, but it's a shame the that everything before it feels so forced and mediocre.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 20:36:42 2015 No.7085948 >>7085845 yeah the stuff in space blows compared to the stuff back on Urth but that makes it worth it

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 20:44:29 2015 No.7085982 File: 35 KB, 200x309, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7084092 I didn't read it, but I did read Knight and it's fucking terrible.

Anonymous Mon Sep 7 21:00:34 2015 No.7086051

>>7085948
>>7085845

>How is it you speak? What sound is there here?” “You must listen to my voice,” she told me, “and not to my words. What do you hear?” I did as she had instructed me, and heard the silken sliding of the sheet, the whisper of our bodies, the breaking of the little waves, and the beating of my own heart. A hundred questions I had been ready to ask, and it had seemed to me that each of the hundred might bring the New Sun. Her lips brushed mine, and every question vanished, banished from my consciousness as if it had never been. Her hands, her lips, her eyes, the breasts I pressed—all wondrous; but there was more, perhaps the perfume of her hair. I felt that I breathed an endless night … . Lying upon my back, I entered Yesod. Or say, rather, Yesod closed about me. It was only then that I knew I had never been there. Stars in their billions spurted from me, fountains of suns, so that for an instant I felt I knew how universes are born. All folly. Reality displaced it, the kindling of the torch that whips shadows to their corners, and with them all the winged fays of fancy. There was something born between Yesod and Briah when I met with Apheta upon that divan in that circling room, something tiny yet immense that burned like a coal conveyed to the tongue by tongs. That something was myself

how is that bad

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 21:11:05 2015 No.7086085 >>7085845 >>7085948 is it really not worth reading? i absolutely LOVED the first four books but everything ive heard about the last one makes me not want to ruin my view of the series with it. it seems so forced and not genuine like the others.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 7 21:13:39 2015 No.7086102 >>7086051 >>7086085 It's not bad and I think you should read it. It's weaker than any of the other 4 but I thought parts of the 2nd and 3rd dragged as well. The latter part of Urth is really wonderful

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 03:24:43 2015 No.7087023 >>7085982 It was actually really great.

Anonymous Tue Sep 8 03:44:01 2015 No.7087055
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"He who had given all books into my keeping made me blind so that I should know in whose keeping the keepers stand."

I will never write anything that comes close to Meme Wolfe I might as well off myself

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 03:50:24 2015 No.7087066 >>7085453 Edgy af tbh. W2c?

Anonymous Tue Sep 8 03:55:08 2015 No.7087073

>>7084092
Yep. People go on about Tolkien as a classic writer, but Gene Wolfe is the first writer who has made an absolutely comprehensive artistic statement using fantasy as a method of conveyance. It's fantasy born out of a literary, rather than a commercial tradition.

>>7084199
I put heaps of lolly rappers and bits of paper in my copy of Book of the New Sun. My brother borrowed it off me, and took them all out. He didn't get past fifty pages.

>>7084459
>It's amazing that Wolfe is a genre writer.
Wolfe doesn't fit any definition of genre writer that has low quality or superficiality inherent in it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 03:56:41 2015 No.7087079 >>7084874 Gene Wolfe is in the upper echelons of 20th century literature. There are no genre writers as good as him, but by the same token, there are very few writers as good as him at all.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 04:01:35 2015 No.7087088 >>7087073 Your brother needs to be culled. One swift stroke will separate his spine. Like the line that divides two books.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 04:11:10 2015 No.7087110 Srsly regrett wasting time on this tbqh >he doesn't get it Kill yourself, neckbeard cross tippers Meme me once etc

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 04:15:57 2015 No.7087121 >>7087110 Yeah, nice. Disoriented meme-speak. Also >reading tips fedora

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 04:29:45 2015 No.7087148 >>7087110 How does it feel to be mentally of a lower capacity and due to that unable to appreciate the finest of literature?

Anonymous Tue Sep 8 04:33:35 2015 No.7087159

>>7087121
TBH you can't post anything remotely negative about the Wolfe in these threads without having that guy spring with "hasn't read it, hasn't read it", mechanical-like shitposting without the awareness. You can even tell it's always the same guy, is what makes it disheartening

Oh and btw BotNS is a misogynist

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 04:48:26 2015 No.7087183 >>7087159 Probably because you always fail to give a critique and because after you start giving it it becomes blatantly obvious you haven't read it. It's always like that. >is a misogynist Nice bait

Anonymous Tue Sep 8 13:11:30 2015 No.7088411

>>7087183
>Probably because you always fail to give a critique and because after you start giving it it becomes blatantly obvious you haven't read it. It's always like that.

This. Everytime someone tries to shit on Wolfe the worst they can come up with is 'MUH GENRE FICTION'.

In the few cases where legitimate criticism has popped up, they have been responded to in a typically intelligent or coherent manner.

And just so we're clear, claiming a book is 'misogynist' is not a criticism, it's simply a political statement about a body of work which indicates an individuals personal distaste of a work based on their perception that a work doesn't properly or fairly handle women in the work.

BotNS is not a misogynistic work no matter how much you faggots want to whine about it. And even if it was, it wouldn't diminish it's stature as a fantastic series of great literary merit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 13:35:17 2015 No.7088514 >>7087159 >is a misogynist the books a misogynist? how? because severian is a ladies man?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 13:38:22 2015 No.7088522 >>7088514 Severian rapes the women and lies about it

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 13:38:38 2015 No.7088525 >>7088514 severian is a dumbass teen and serial abuser who sees himself as a ladies man and guru of romance but he's really just a jackass and if you don't see this you don't read very well tbqh the books aren't misogynist btw, but Sev is

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 13:40:33 2015 No.7088535 >>7088522 when did he rape a woman? what part was that? >>7088525 i guess so ;_;

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 13:45:28 2015 No.7088558 >>7088535 he rapes Jolenta but denies it was rape at the time, then later admits it was (in Urth, I think). but honestly if you need to read Urth to see that it was rape you are far too trusting of Severian and his perfect memory

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 13:47:40 2015 No.7088566 >>7088558 oh ok thats who i wouldve guessed it was. shit i thought that jolentra asked to walk with him down by the river because she wanted to fuck him? no?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 13:48:34 2015 No.7088569 >>7084199 That impressed me

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 13:52:14 2015 No.7088581 >>7088558 He was probably drugged. And why would you rape something you hate? That rape is misogynistic is weird.

Anonymous Tue Sep 8 13:53:47 2015 No.7088591

>>7088566
read that bit again (in Claw, I think?) knowing what you know now - it should be pretty clear that she doesn't want this at all and is going along with Severian because she's afraid of him - but that Sev's narration attempts to present her as much more willing than she is (without outright lying).

Severian's self-delusion is the funniest and best part of Book of the New Sun imo

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 16:59:20 2015 No.7089414 >>7088558 Severian rapes his granny, Dorcas

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 17:11:01 2015 No.7089442 >>7089414 He wasn't rape. They were in a relationship.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 17:13:00 2015 No.7089454 >>7089414 pretty sure that was consensual m8

Anonymous Tue Sep 8 17:14:14 2015 No.7089459
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>>7088522
The book isn't misogynist, Severian is.

If you think the books message is the same thing as the intentions of one of its characters you should really seek some kind of help

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 17:21:30 2015 No.7089478 >>7089459 How do you distinguish between the two? What makes you think the author isn't complicit in the character's misogyny?

Anonymous Tue Sep 8 17:24:37 2015 No.7089484

>>7089478
>What makes you think the author isn't complicit in the character's misogyny?

Not him, but what makes you think it does? One of the most famous writer's of my country, and Nobel price at that was also a fanatical Nazi, but as far as I know, none of the characters in any of his books are Nazis.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 17:25:37 2015 No.7089490 >>7089484 Nobel prize winning at that*

Anonymous Tue Sep 8 17:25:49 2015 No.7089491

>>7089442
>>7089454
You didn't get the meme.

Also he did actually and I quote force himself upon her.
It's actually a really interesting relationship between the two. They sincerely love each other and at the same time willingly and knowingly use each other, Severian her for sex and company, she uses him for protection. She says he loves him first time on the beach because she has no where to go and she trades sex for protection. And yet she does love him due to their rather incestuous relationship.
>>7089478
He wrote other things. One common theme is a distant, unreachable perfect woman. Wizard Knight, There are Doors, New and Long Sun view women as if they are angels because Wolfe sees his wife Rosemary in them.

Anonymous Tue Sep 8 17:30:18 2015 No.7089506

>>7089478
the whole book is kind of a piss take on the tension between how Severian presents himself and what a doofus he is. the book clearly in no way endorses Severian's stupidity, either in his misogyny or in other places.

does Gene Wolfe think animal husbandry means marrying animals? probably not

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 17:32:05 2015 No.7089511 >>7089484 You're reversing the argument. If his characters were all Nazis and weren't looked at critically, I would also think the author might be sympathetic to Nazis. Also, I don't think Grass was a fanatical Nazi.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 8 23:44:09 2015 No.7090827 File: 23 KB, 333x500, 413HGXT0H8L.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Fucking masterpiece.

Anonymous Tue Sep 8 23:54:38 2015 No.7090858
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Wolfe loves protagonists with unusual memory problems huh? This is better than BotNS imo, especially if youve been a good boy and read all your Greeks, especially Herodotus. Almost done with the second book. Is soldier of sidon worth reading as well? I know there was an almost 2 decade gap between them.

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/lit/ - Literature