[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 7 KB, 250x192, 1439098813425s.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6990619 No.6990619 [Reply] [Original]

Why are Marxists so convinced their system is the end-all be-all of economic, scientific, and philosophical thought when no Marxist has offered a good epistemological schema in the history of Marxism? In fact, the history of Marxism is a progressive movement away from solid epistemological foundations, moving away from Hegel in the beginning and towards Zizek at the end. Most Marxists disregard the question of epistemology entirely, just waving it off as ideology or sayig that it can be understood through psychological science while not providing anything of their own.

>> No.6990635

>>6990619
Laclau.

>> No.6990642

>it's a Marxism thread


I know that op has a valid point (and is, in fact, quite good compared to other threads) but I am just fucking tired of this shit.

>> No.6990644

>>6990635
Could you elaborate? People here have a terrible habit of equating name-dropping with argumentation.

>> No.6990658

>>6990619
why is that young lady yelling a t that poor old man? Is this South Africa?

>> No.6990661

>>6990658
she is literally screaming, "I AM being respectful"

>> No.6990669

Marxism is a complete failure for almost 200 years. I can't think of any other ideology which has failed and embarrassed itself more. At this point I consider everyone into discussing and holding Marxism seriously a subhuman.

>> No.6990675

>>6990619

>Most Marxists disregard the question of epistemology entirely

Things that never happened, read Thomas Kuhn.

>just waving it off as ideology

epistemology is not ideology, the vulgar materialism scientism of confused with philosophy is ideology.

>that it can be understood through psychological science

Do you have any proof, source, or article to back that bullshit claim up? In fact Marxists have been criticizing psychotherapy and psychology ever since Althusser.

>> No.6990683 [DELETED] 

>>6990669

>Marxism is a complete failure for almost 200 years

You are thinking of conservationism. The biggest cuck ideology out there.

>> No.6990690

>>6990669

>>6990669

>Marxism is a complete failure for almost 200 years

You are thinking of conservativism. The biggest cuck ideology out there.

>> No.6990694

>>6990690
>Implying Marxists can't be conservative

>> No.6990695

>>6990690
conservatism isn't an ideology in and of itself

>> No.6990701

>>6990695

You are right it's more of a spook made up word to trick the working class to vote against their own interest.

Properly speaking it doesn't even exist anymore, hence why it's proponents are the biggest cucks.

>> No.6990708

>>6990701
>Ideology: The Post

>> No.6990710

>>6990701
no one cares about the working class anymore

>> No.6990714

Tbh applying Marxist theory has become a tool of capitalist subversion from reall Marxist revolution.

>> No.6990717

>>6990714
You mean socialist revolution. Marxism isn't revolutionary anymore, but socialism is.

>> No.6990730

Marxists are all poor people (students)
epistemology has nothing to do with it

>> No.6990732

>why do followers of <insert x ideological movement here> think their ideology is the best?

I wonder what it could be?

>> No.6990735

>>6990710
Some working class do. People going to see Bernie speeches particularly. You scurrd?

>>6990714
Naw, scaring people with the boogeyman terms is their tool. Look how many dumb kids float in here to defend their prison cell world in the fruitless hope they'll make it big or big enough to spit on someone below them.

>> No.6990743

>>6990717
Yeah.

Tbh currently I feel the left has no real answer I just think capitalism can't be the end organization of humans.

But I agree with what you are getting at

>> No.6990761

>>6990735
>thinking American politics matters
>thinking Bernie can make any real change
if Syriza couldn't why could Bernie?

>> No.6990778

>>6990761
You jump to a lot of odd conclusions there, anon.
Did the politics in Rome effect the Roman empire? It sure did.
As for Bernie's chances; almost anything's possible. The US isn't Greece.

>> No.6990801

>>6990778
you're right the US is infinitely more monolithic

>> No.6990848

>>6990675
Kuhn wasn't a Marxist

>> No.6990857

>>6990619
Dunno.

Why do some people still pursue ontology?

>> No.6990885

I would actually say Zizek is salvaging what is left of Marxism and reinterpreting it so we can understand the opposition to the dominating social system.

But hey you can go on being a fucking pleb and saying everything you don't like is a mene or degenerate.

>> No.6990909

>>6990885
Isn't every Marxist trying to do that? And don't most of them do a more convincing job than Zizek, whose entire career is based on witticisms and contrarianism?

>> No.6990933

>>6990909
You mean philosophy?

>> No.6991027

>>6990933
No, I don't, actually. We both know that that isn't what philosophy is.

>> No.6992632

Fuck off. Marxism is built on soild epistemologies.

>> No.6993328

>>6990619
Start by reading Anti-Duhring and Empriocriticism.

Now realise they're wrong and read History and Class Consciousness.

>> No.6993334

>>6992632
Typical marxist argument
Always has to be a vulgar insult, followed by the "I'm right because I just am" fallacy

>> No.6993337
File: 26 KB, 480x480, hegel.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6993337

>>6990619
Marxism is so early 20th century, yo. Marx long since got dialected.

Communism + Capitalism = Welfare State

>> No.6993338

>>6993328
Then read Keynes. Then read some history books about how wonderfully communism has gone.

>> No.6993374
File: 8 KB, 225x225, 1437929591591.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6993374

>He claims that everybody else's beliefs are "pure ideology" but also considers himself a "Marxist"

>> No.6993376

>>6993338
Not exactly relevant to proletarian praxis as a self-satisfying action epistemology is it, mate?

>> No.6993397

>>6990619
Are you implying Chomsky is a marxist?

>> No.6993404

>>6993337
What a stupid fucking post. You posted an image of Hegel but I doubt you actually read him, because if you did, you'd realize that he was basically advocating for a welfare state.

>> No.6993410

>>6990619
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWOuCfdJYMM

Has there ever been a more beta Presidential candidate?

>> No.6993413

>>6993404
Are you high, brah?

>> No.6993418

>>6990735
>You scurrd?
Not really because I know Bernie has absolutely no chance of winning the Democrat nomination let alone the presidency.

>> No.6993429

>>6993397
Isn't that Bernie Sanders?

>> No.6993517

>>6993374
well yeah.. whats your point.

>> No.6993530

>>6990619
What do epistemology and economics have to do with each other?

>> No.6993551

>>6990619
Why are Marxists so convinced that actively making people angry and turning them against you is the right way to achieve their political goals?

>> No.6993611

>>6993530
>What do epistemology and economics have to do with each other?

Famously, very little. Economics as an academic discipline uses a number of famous simplifications of reality in order to be able to analyse discreet cases (such as the self-interested purchaser). In reality, economics is reliant upon epistemologies grounded in quant and qual.

>>6993551
>Why are Marxists so convinced that actively making people angry and turning them against you is the right way to achieve their political goals?
They're not. Sounds like you're talking about middle class new left politics. These politics are based on the idea that the "state" is persuadable through pressure. In contrast, Marxist politics views actions in contemporary society as a way to compile working class power.

>> No.6993649

Negative Dialectics has an epistemological turn. Can't discuss it though.

>> No.6993887

>>6993649
Why not? Is it secret Jewish gnosis?

>> No.6993936

>>6990801
If he's able to disguise well-enough as a Democrat maybe he'll fool liberals into thinking he is one.

>> No.6993946
File: 129 KB, 776x651, 1439687915462.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6993946

>>6993338
>Keynes

Get this garbage outta here. It's Hayek or you're a fascist.

>> No.6993953
File: 226 KB, 448x600, Keynes fiction.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6993953

>>6993946
Right on.

>> No.6993955

>>6993946
>fascist
Why do people throw that word around like it means anything?

>> No.6993968 [DELETED] 

>>6993551
It's part of the South American socialism dilemma.

Stupidity, lack of trying, getting the short end of the stick, or getting fucked over by foreign nations create a bad situation. So Socialism/Marxism/Communism/Special-Snowflake-ism is offered as a way of fixing the problem. But of course Socialism/Marxism/Communism/Special-Snowflake-ism is totally divorced from reality and sticks it's fingers in it's ears and screams LALALALALAL. The problem gets exacerbated. And what gets offered to fix it? More Socialism/Marxism/Communism/Special-Snowflake-ism!

Not enough food? Give people free land and seeds on the condition that they produce a given amount of food/profit over a given period of time? Nah, take farmland from the farmers, put 20 people on half of it, and create a ticket system for buying food.

>> No.6994395
File: 173 KB, 530x410, 1423487488528.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6994395

>>6993946
Libertarianism is a mistake.

"It’s produced by humans who can’t stand looking at other humans. And that’s why the industry is full of otaku!"
–Hayao Miyazaki

>> No.6994400

>>6993410
Oooo someone's erect.

>> No.6994415

>>6993946
austrians are an internet phenomenon, do you follow every internet trend, anon? how is that working for you?

>> No.6994456

>>6993936
Someone's afraid of him.
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/08/12/coulter-go-a-little-easier-on-hillary-because-shes-the-one-we-want-to-run-against/
Pardon the link. I just saw this on Thom Hartmann's Big Picture, and he demonstrated why Republican voters could end up voting for Bernie. I admit I had my doubts but this crazy cycle could end up with a President Sanders. Reflecting a central plot point in my story, astonishingly.

>> No.6994552

>>6990761
The revolutionary situation in the US is completely absent. I'm as ultra-left as it gets in my critical and constructive thought and even I think Sanders is a positive development. Going from "the billionaire class" to the bourgeoisie is a much smaller transition to make than when the public discourse is dominated by the job creators and the middle class.

>> No.6994582

>>6993530
Marx's dialectical method is not synonymous with historical determinism or any sort of Hegelian teleology.

The dialectic is a method of analyzing, of producing knowledge. In contrast to classical political economy, Marx's dialectic moves beyond the realm of appearance. Economics *represents* capitalism as the simple, equitable exchange of commodities. It assumes individual rational actors, a logic of exchange that is equitable at every level, and a fundamental mistaking of the circulation of commodities (that you sell to get money, them buy something else to use it) for the actual formula of capital (money to buy something to sell for more money).

>> No.6994678

Very few people are actually unironically Marxist, it's just that it's socially mandated to be some type and degree of anti-capitalist for anyone under 35 or so.

>> No.6994709

>>6994678
>Very few people are actually unironically Marxist
You don't know what Marxism nor irony are.

>it's socially mandated to be some type and degree of anti-capitalist for anyone under 35 or so.
Nor do you know what capitalism is. Try Value Price and Profit.

>> No.6994715

>>6990642
maybe we should create a safe space for you

>> No.6994928

>>6994395
Didn't Hayek the economist support some welfare, socialized healthcare, and anti-pollution laws?

>> No.6994946

>>6994709
You don't know what marxism nor irony are. Nor do you know what capitalism is.

>> No.6994951

>>6994928
And what makes him "Austrian school" exactly?
And what made the baby urp up this picture >>6993953 ?

>> No.6994997

>>6994951
The guy responding to the other guy implied he was Austrian.