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/lit/ - Literature

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6978382 No.6978382 [Reply] [Original]

Is book burning worse than a genocide?

>> No.6978387

>>6978382
no

>> No.6978394

>>6978387

If someone said: "Ok you can pick. Either we undo the Holocaust or we undo the burning of the books of Alexandria's library"

I know what to pick... Go ahead. Hate me.

>> No.6978397

All value judgments are arbitrary

>> No.6978399

>>6978394

The library isn't that impressive

>> No.6978400

>>6978394
good argument tbh

>> No.6978402

>>6978394
Definitely the library. I dont care about jews.

>> No.6978404

>>6978399
But we do know that it was actually burned.

>> No.6978408

>>6978394
Honestly? I would probably undo the burning

I just would

>> No.6978410

>>6978397
Is it a value judgement?

>> No.6978411

>>6978382
no because there's alot of shit books. Only a small percentage is worth feeling bad over

>> No.6978413

>>6978410
I think he meant to say moral judgement

both work tho

>> No.6978418

>>6978394
Undo the Holocaust, obviously.

>> No.6978427

>>6978394
Same tbh
I'm Jewish

>> No.6978429
File: 69 KB, 500x502, wtf fam.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6978429

>>6978399

Oh you have been there?

>> No.6978433

>>6978402
This so much wtf
Not even a tough call

>> No.6978435
File: 14 KB, 500x354, people.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6978435

>>6978394

I should note that I meant undo the burning of the books of Alexandria. If it wasn't obvious, now it is.

>>6978399
>>6978418

Pic related.

>> No.6978437

>>6978394
First of all, the burning of the Alexandrian library occurred when it was a shadow of its former self. There's no real evidence that anything was lost. Meanwhile, the Holocaust is the event that defines our contemporary world, and, of course, there's the whole genocide thing. Removing the Holocaust is easily the only choice.
Back to your sty, animals.

>> No.6978440

>>6978394
No holocaust means more anti-zionist Haredi Jews and no "muh shoah" argument to call every criticism of Zionism "antisemitic".

>> No.6978444

>>6978382

Book burnings precede genocides, so in a sense yes it's worse because this should be the alarm bell.

"Wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen"
- Heinrich Heine

>> No.6978454

>>6978437

>Meanwhile, the Holocaust is the event that defines our contemporary world

No it doesn't.
If Hitler didn't kill any Jews, the war would have been fought just the same (mind you that during the war both sides weren't even sure ( some say they were but didn't really give too much of a crap ) what was happening to the Jews inside Europe) and the effects afterwards might have been that Israel would be founded later, but still be founded because Jews would still migrate in droves to Israel as they've had for decades.

>> No.6978460

>>6978437
>holocaust defines the modern world
My sides

>> No.6978461

>>6978437

>Back to your sty, animals.

You mean "goyim"?
Are you aiming for tenure with this "Holocaust makes me lose sleep at night" crap?

>> No.6978466

>>6978437

I would say currently our world would be defined more as post 9/11 and with terrorism than post holocaust.

>> No.6978467

>>6978440

They would still scream antisemitism.

>> No.6978470

>>6978454
>>6978460
>>6978461
You have to be at least 18 years old to post on this board.

>> No.6978477

>>6978437

Only Jews and some white academics care about the Holocaust.

>> No.6978486

>>6978470

Well tell us how it defined our contemporary world then?

>> No.6978492

>>6978454
>>6978460
Why are you intentionally ignoring the significance of the holocaust on global politic play? Why do you think states make such a deal about "crimes against humanity"? Why are you ignoring the political importance of physical and ideological Israel and the Arab states? We're still dealing with this shit.

>> No.6978497

>>6978486
>>6978477
see
>>6978470
take your shit to /pol/ subhuman

>> No.6978507

>>6978497

So you can't reply a basic question like "how did the Holocaust define our world" without going muh feelings?

>omg it's so self evident y do i even need to reply to this, faux news ignorant hicks omg

>> No.6978509

>>6978492
>Why are you intentionally ignoring the significance of the holocaust on global politic play?
The act itself wasn't so significant, but because Jews control global finance, entertainment, politics...you get the idea.

>> No.6978515

>>6978466
Sure but without American intervention in the Mid-East (Israel being a/the critical step for that) there is no 9/11.

>> No.6978518

>>6978382
>women

>> No.6978519

>>6978492

>states make such a deal about "crimes against humanity"

Some more legitimizations for war. Hardly changes the base structure.

They only make a deal about it when it can be used for their own benefits.
Crimes against humanity done by an ally of a great power are ignored.

Some IR realism will do you good.

>> No.6978520

>>6978394
I wish the Holocaust really happened

>> No.6978527

>>6978515

>thinks jet fuel can melt steal beams

>> No.6978530
File: 17 KB, 225x225, pepe drink.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6978530

>>6978520

savage

>> No.6978533

Choosing between two non-cocurrent historical events is pointless, changing the earlier of the two would certainly affect the later.

If you prevented the destruction of the library of Alexandria you almost certainly prevented the current Holocaust.

Source: I'm a time traveler.

>> No.6978539

>>6978519
The point, dingus, is that it was a crime of such size that it redefined how states establish power and seek dominance. Try thinking critically and knowing what you're talking about,

>> No.6978549

>>6978539

Except it didn't.
The Cold War and post-Cold War era in no way are defined by the Holocaust.

It was late after the war, when the bipolar world order was already established, that the research on the Holocaust was taking off.

>> No.6978551

>>6978539
>is that it was a crime of such size
o i am laffin

>> No.6978554

>>6978539

I see someone paid good attention in a European university.

>> No.6978559
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6978559

>some people care more about Jews than books

This is how you spot fucking plebs.

>> No.6978562

>>6978539
>crime
good one

>> No.6978764

>>6978394
I undo the burning, but not for the reason you think.

The holocaust is arguably one of the most important events in recent history to define the generations to come and to set the precedent for several different beliefs.

The holocaust is the conclusion of racism taken to its most logical extreme. Its basically a real life example of a slippery slope.

Before the holocaust took place racism was seen as the norm, whether you were a jew or a black or an asian. There was no real push to give rights and treat others fairly if they were different than you.

With the holocaust the world acted with absolute revulsion towards the actions carried out by the Germans, this was alsmot certainly due to military propoganda than actually being disgusted by what happened, but it still led to an overall shift in public opinion towards racism.

If the holocaust hadn't occurred then the same push to fix it would be absent and society would likewise be more accepting of it.

Basically, I think the holocaust is one the most important arguments for equality and tolerance in recent history.

>> No.6978808
File: 49 KB, 478x479, genocide.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6978808

>>6978382
No. Books have no feelings.

>> No.6978817

>>6978394
I pick the Holo. Gives someone else the chance to do it right.

>> No.6978819

>thinly veiled attempt to get to discuss how horrible and worthless females are
>no one really bites
>"better start talking about Jews"

I'll be waiting in anticipation at how you turn this into a discussion of cuckolding and nigger dicks, OP.

>> No.6978822

>>6978808
Nor do dead people.

>> No.6978831

>>6978822
I was referring to their torture.
Not to mention the mental damage the murderers do to themselves.

>> No.6978832

>>6978394
I would undo the burning of Alexandria's library: the permanent loss of thousands of tomes of knowledge is worse than the deaths of 6 million jews.

>> No.6978855

>>6978831
/pol/ here. It's been scientifically proven that they actually weren't tortured. They had tennis courts, swimming pools, and arcades.

Take the redpill

>> No.6978859

>>6978819

I hate Jews more than women, so everything went better than expected.

>> No.6978861

>>6978808

Books aren't replacable. People are.

>> No.6978864

>>6978394
This sounds like a good point, but i think it's a flawed argument. The library of Alexandria was a collection of works that absolutely cannot be duplicated by the human race. The holocaust was just a bunch of average people.

A better hypothetical question might be:

"If you could undo the holocaust or prevent a fire at your local library, which one would you prevent?"

or perhaps:

"If you could undo the destruction of Alexandria's Library, or prevent a time travelling wizard from traversing the fourth dimension and murdering every single philosopher born in the last 4000 years in their cot, which one would you choose?

>> No.6978866

>>6978764

>I think the holocaust is one the most important arguments for equality and tolerance in recent history.

In reality, and sadly, it's moreso the most important argument to support Israel.

>> No.6978871
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6978871

>>6978394

>> No.6978888

>>6978486
By defined I'm pretty sure he just means its a unique event in modern history, burned into the collective consciousness of the human race for its role in reminding us that human beings are murderous, reasonless fucking animals at their cores.

I think defined is absolutely the wrong word, but I guess I agree with the intent of his post.

>> No.6978889

>>6978871
>buttflustered liberal-feminist cuck detected

>> No.6978899

>>6978888
>its a unique event in modern history
Genocides are far more common than you think.
>burned into the collective consciousness of the human race
Let's not get dramatic here. Very few people actually care about Jews or the Holocaust.
>that human beings are murderous, reasonless fucking animals at their cores.
If anything, the Holocaust was brought about because of reason taken to an extreme.

>> No.6978910

>>6978899
>Very few people actually care about Jews or the Holocaust.

Go to any university or college and ask the students what they think about the Holocaust. They all genuinely think it was awful. They've been brainwashed by their Marxist professors, and we are constantly reminded of the event in the media.

Don't say there isn't a liberal agenda to make us never forget how 'horrible' it was

>> No.6978915

>>6978382
This is why they're called "Femnazi", they even got the book-burning down.

>> No.6978925

>>6978899
Genocides are pretty common, yes, but the holocaust was unique in its efficiency. It was a proper, post-industrial genocide.

My point about collective consciousness etc. doesn't imply anyone cares, it just implies everyone is aware of the event. Though I guess maybe the word 'burned' implies a degree of pain, which was not my intent.

>> No.6978930

>>6978910
What would you expect them to say?

>> No.6978955
File: 18 KB, 300x300, 1437115992758.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6978955

>>6978382

>Chad

>> No.6978966

>>6978915
you realize this image literally shows a feminist denouncing this action

>> No.6978977

>>6978966
Women are worthless whores

>> No.6978998

>>6978399
Neither were those people.

>> No.6979011

>>6978515
I'm not really on those guys' side, but I would just like to say that that is a big assumption on your part. The middle east would still be oil rich without the holocaust, the suez canal would still exist without the holocaust.. etc. The Middle East is just a hugely important geopolitical area, and that's why it's been a battleground for like the last 2000 years, and I think regardless of the holocaust (though I do think it spurred things on) the US, as it exerted its hegemony, would have gotten their hand into that pie eventually

>> No.6979029

>>6978394
Save the books

>> No.6979034

>>6978861
Spoken like an economist.
You're wrong of course.

>> No.6979035

>>6978394
Holocaust

honestly, what do you expect to find in a preserved library of alexandria that would be of use

>> No.6979044

>>6978399
Neither was the Holocaust

>> No.6979052

>>6978394
>stopping the burning of the library of Alexandria would have stopped the holocaust

Check mate, I win. :^)

>> No.6979064

>>6979034
what books have you even read on econ

>> No.6979130

>>6979064
>>6979034
oh, you haven't.
I see.

>> No.6979139

>>6979034

Economist? More like structuralist.

>> No.6979144

>>6979064
You'll obviously only deride anything I put forward, but the question is irrelevant.
I was calling you out as a sociopath that would gleefully kill anyone in his way.

>> No.6979161

>>6978509
LOL

>> No.6979174

>>6978394
Funnily enough, undo the Holocaust and the medical industry of the western world becomes extremely privatized. Like 10 times more than current United States. More poor people would be unable to afford treatment and care, thus widening the gap between upper and lower classes, possibly doing away with the middle class completely, opening up vulnerabilities in many nations for fascist regimes to take over.

Do away with the Holocaust of the 20th century and instead you'll get a Holocaust much much worse in the 21st century.

>> No.6979185

>>6979174

>implying the free market doesn't fix it

>> No.6979235

>>6978394
A better argument would be the destruction of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad.

>> No.6979374

>>6979144
actually I'd just call you out on your bullshit like I am now
you don't know the first thing about economics
any of it

not the structure, implementation, why we make economic models, how the price of bread can be used to determine what the feds interest rates are, how you can drive forward production by increasing and decreasing inflation, how you can encourage investing in assets to prepare for a bubble.
you just don't know anything at all, and you think that you can write it off because you mistakenly think economists write off oil and such as externalities. they are called resources. and scarce resources. which is the primary focus of economics, managing scarce resources. but you wouldn't know any of that because you have literally no experience with the material

All you can do is throw around the opinions others have made for you and demonize economists because you are convinced they want to run the world into the ground by killing the endangered species and increasing taxes (stealing!). you're just full of bullshit.

>> No.6979392

>>6978394
If we were talking about any other ethnic group than Ashkenazi jews, I'd agree. But here we're talking about the biggest book suckers on Earth. 5 millions Jews could surely rewrite something equivalent to the library of Alexandria in less than two decades. All the more so than it wasn't that big a library. I bet you could have found half of it in the memories of the guys like Ibn Sinna.

I mean, 100,00, 200,000 death I'd understand, but 5 millions ? The Library of Alexandria wasn't the fucking Internet mang.

>> No.6979425

>>6979392
the library had the knowledge of centries, this was basically the first university
and everybody who went there added more and more to it
a ton of knowledge was lost when it burned (we don't actually know if there was much in it when it burned though)

I don't really know. either one would make a huge difference in the world we have today. Perhaps for the worse, we just have no idea.

Saving the jews is probably a safer bet, at that point electronics were at least invented, the current day would probably be somewhat similar
going back further makes the differences further
without tesla and dc and ben franklin who knows what woud have happened
maybe no electricity at all

>> No.6979426

>>6979374
Still irrelevant to my initial post to you.

And your lack of concern for what is running the world into the ground, just goes to proving me right. What a weirdo.

...I mean, are you trying to pick a conversation from earlier? About that David Suzuki video?

>> No.6979427

>>6978454
The Holocaust is important because it made Europe ashamed of itself. It's the main reason we are cucks now.
>>6978899
>brought about because of reason taken to an extreme.
>costly murdering of million citizens who are mostly supportive of your rule in time of war
>including thousand of engineers and capable soldiers
>reason

No mang, the means used were relatively reasonable, but the motives were batshit crazy. Completely counterproductive on an economic and military point of view, even if forced labor did alleviate part of the cost.

>>6979011
The Middle East hasn't been a battleground continuously for 2000 years and it certainly hasn't so often been as fucked up as it is now. Israel being there certainly change the geopolitical balance.

>> No.6979428

I will save the books because at least the books themselves won't rule over us as herdmasters to cattle.

/pol/ aside, the Jews are a despicable group when in power and if they weren't they wouldn't have been expelled over one hundred times from various countries. You'd think someone today would have that click and go, "hey wait a minute." Instead, it's masked by the crimes of a "holocaust" that has been greatly exaggerated or purposely falsified to be biased towards a particular colony of rats.

>> No.6979449

>>6979426
yes, from the older conversation
and I was being facetious with the running the world into the ground
you can tell because right before that I said "you are convinced they"

>> No.6979456

>>6979449
and it turns out I was right about it too

>> No.6979457

>>6979425
>the library had the knowledge of centries, this was basically the first university

Nope. In a broad sense that would be Athens, in a narrow sense somewhere in the Middle East (probably Bagdad) or in Egypt.

Point is, there weren't that many books in that time, and most of them would be of little interest to us now except as historical and perhaps philosophical documents. You are not going to find ten ignored Homer in Alexandria, at best a few Porphyries.

There's a legend Ibn Sinna had memorized all the content of the Library of Alexandria by age 18. That's a legend of course, but goes to show there wasn't that much to learn in that time (at least compared to modern standards, and compared to what 100,000 engineers, scientists, philologists, writers and literature amateurs could write in 50 years). You could probably have learnt nearly all the medical knowledge of the time in less study than what it takes to complete a phD in medicine now.

So, leaving aside the ethical question, I'm not sure by keeping the Holocaust and saving Alexandria we'd actually win in terms of direct added quantity/quality of books. Not to mention whatever would be saved in Alexandria would have centuries to be lost elsewhere in-between.

Something like the best parts of the internet or the library of Congress would be a better dilemma, although most of those would be comparatively easy to retrieve.

Last but not least, the Holocaust (and Hitler's rule in general) put an abrupt end to a golden age of /lit and /sci patricianess that was still flowering in Germany and Western Europe. The /sci patricianess was passed over to the US, the /lit patricianess not so much.

>Saving the jews is probably a safer bet, at that point electronics were at least invented, the current day >would probably be somewhat similar
>going back further makes the differences further
>without tesla and dc and ben franklin who knows what woud have happened
>maybe no electricity at all

I agree, pretty much my second point.

>> No.6979461

>>6979428
>guy call an ethnic human group a "colony of rats"
>complains about other people being biased

Hum...

>> No.6979471

>>6978399
Neither are Jews.

>> No.6979488

>>6978764
Good points. If I could prevent all that from happening then I'll gladly undo the holocaust even if it means 5 millions more Jews lived to pass on children.

>> No.6979571

>>6978394
The library.

>> No.6979595

>>6979571
And step on it.

Obviously the right answer btw

>> No.6979610
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6979610

>>6979457

Not the guy you're responding to, but

I get what you're saying but i think it's a bit much to dismiss the burning of the library as insignificant or without major cultural impact.

I suppose you could argue that the same people who burned the library also skinned Hypatia alive with seashells, so the validity of so much knowledge would be lost on people with such barbaric tendencies, though you could say the same of today.

>Point is, there weren't that many books in that time, and most of them would be of little interest to us now except as historical and perhaps philosophical documents. You are not going to find ten ignored Homer in Alexandria, at best a few Porphyries.

It's not about quantity, it's about quality. For all we know, written records of whole epochs of human existence were wiped out. Even just first-hand accounts of historical events, or local perspectives on them would be significant to us now. I don't think anyone's arguing that major feats and means of engineering and science were lost so much as a heavenly host of sociological, artistic, and insightful works of historical renown.

>> No.6979632

>>6978394

Well, of course they are both great tragedies, but given the sheer, unimaginably horrific scale of the Holocaust, I'd go with undoing that. Then again, I'm Jewish myself, so perhaps I'm a somewhat biased party. Besides which, the best evidence is that there wasn't really a single "burning of the Library" so much as a series of events over a few centuries that eventually decimated it.

But, I understand the sentiment somewhat. For example, while of course I'm upsetted greatly by the videos of ISIS members killing folks for no reason at all, what grinds my gears even more are the videos of their destroying archaeological sites and suchlike. It's truly appalling, the thought that they're destroying willy-nilly some of the oldest evidence of significant human culture in the world.

>> No.6979633

>>6978764
This nigger gets it.

>> No.6979644

>>6978764

I don't know, the Jews (and others, of course) might still be living in the ghettos, but at least they'd still be living, right? I'm not convinced by your utilitarian calculus there.

>> No.6979654

pretty epic thread
I'm cutting the negatives for my r/4chan post as we speak

>> No.6979739

>>6979644
It's not just about the jews, it's about the blacks, the asians, the hispanics and even the whites where it applies.

Maybe it is cold and uncaring, but I still think that those jews have served a greater purpose by dying than by living. I understand if you think this edgy as fuck, I certainly think it is.

>> No.6979752

>>6979739
No, I understand that it's about mistreatment of all races, but I'm still unconvinced. You still have a great deal of ethnic discrimination even in the First World, anyway.

>> No.6979763

>>6978382
>author's name is literally chad

>> No.6979799

>>6978910
>Marxists
>liberals
>not understanding the difference
see
>>6978470

>> No.6979815

>>6979449
>>6979456
>Books aren't replacable. People are.
People aren't replaceable. They are not cogs in a gear. They are not born to generate profits. They are the point, the ever loving nonsensical meaningless but never worthless point of life. Without them there are no books, without your momma there is no you, though you'd probably be fine with her dying now that you're safely born. Fuck her, right?

>> No.6979824

>>6978394
Only if we prevent the actual degradation of Alexanderia's library over time. The library at the time of its final burning was a shell of its former self

>> No.6979983

I know this thread is about the Jews now, but honestly I have a 6-bookshelf full of shitty pulp fiction books or books by middle aged guys talking about Christianity (nothing interesting here though, literally the shit you'd find in the "Religious" section at a B&N) that my grandmother left behind. I'm moving into that house in a week or so and I want to use the book shelf for my own shit.

I honestly don't see the value in any of these books. Most of them were pushed out to make a quick buck. I thought about bringing them to a used book place or something but honestly I think the world would be better off without them.

It just feels wrong to throw them away, instinctively, even If I think they're better destroyed.

wat do /lit/?

>> No.6980037

>>6979185
>implying the market is at all 'free'
>implying a 'freer' market implies a 'freer' people
>implying a 'freer' market implies a better people

>> No.6980055

>>6979461
we're all rats friend

>> No.6980075

>>6978861
When is your second edition coming then? Remind me to burn on release.

>> No.6980432

>>6979815
>muh unique individual
>muh invaluable human life
>hurr not believing in some divine right and meaning to life makes you a sociopath!
>implying all individual people are of equal use/interest/value to the species as a whole?

>> No.6980535

>>6978437
>defines our contemporary world
Only if youre a german, a jew, or a teen girl reading Anne Frank. Tbh most people only act so passionate about it because deep down they feel guilty that they really dont care the rest of the time

>> No.6980540

>>6980535
some right-wing people get really hot n bothered about it, or reference it, when talking about ewsreal.

>> No.6980612

>>6978764
>Basically, I think the holocaust is one the most important arguments for equality and tolerance in recent history.

I read somewhere that the holocaust is the logical conclusion to any sort of discrimination and racism. You separate them, devalue them, dehumanise them and ultimately the decision comes that they're not worthy to live.

>> No.6981197

>>6980432
*I* don't believe in any meaning to life. Why do I value life over objects? You are showing signs of a sickness that makes you less human.

*Some* people I wouldn't mind losing instead of these irreplaceable historical artifacts, tons of other people I would have no emotional connection with, but I'm considering the people around them and the value they have for them. Idiots like yourself who scoff at the notion of equality don't understand a damn thing. Just grow up.