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6962417 No.6962417 [Reply] [Original]

When did mainstream Christianity lose the concept of the "New Heavens and the New Earth" and consider the Christian endgame to be Heaven? Did it change in the Reformation?

>> No.6962433

It's political in nature. That belief is subversive to the societies the religious institutions exist in, as it implies a massive social upheaval and the establishment of a new order

>> No.6962447

Could you elaborate on this concept? Never heard of this before.

However, if you have any knowledge of the stated theology and history of the religion and what it is today, you know how twisted and retarded contemporary lowest common denominator Christianity is.

>> No.6962491

>>6962447
>Could you elaborate on this concept? Never heard of this before.

It's what the apostolic sects of Christian see when they think of the Resurrection of the Dead. As the soul never "dies" and Heaven is a disincarnate state, albeit in union with God, the "New Heavens and the New Earth" is the only thing the Resurrection of the Dead could mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Earth

Key to the criticisms of Christianity is its talk about being life-denying and actively trying to escape the material world. There are a lot of criticisms that could be said about this but I find it strange that the claim itself rests on the endgame being Heaven when it isn't the case. I know Orthodoxy and Catholicism support the notion and know little of Protestantism and Orientals so I don't know where the forgetting of that piece of doctrine truly came from.

>you know how twisted and retarded contemporary lowest common denominator Christianity is.

No doubt. I am with Thomas Merton in that I reject the modern atheists with the modern theists. I am somewhat apologetic to modern atheists because I know they're fighting poor theology and have no grasp of classical thought or apophatic tradition.

>> No.6962603

>>6962491
This horribly confused me growing up as Orthodox in the US because in my native language everyone always talked about Paradise and the Golden Jerusalem but in the surrounding English-speaking society everyone talked about Heaven instead. I’ve no idea where the Heaven-as-an-endgame nonsense comes from.

>> No.6962625

>>6962603
Not OP but the New Earth is supposed to be renewed altogether so it's likely the New Earth is lumped in with Heaven/paradise/heavenly jerusalem talk

>> No.6962712

I went to Catholic school and I had a theology teacher explain that what actually happens after the Apocalypse is the creation of a perfect world under God's direct sovereignty, where everyone is immortal and has a body mass of an indestructible substance. It's right there in Revelation, but it isn't stressed by many sects as much as the end of the world. It's a subtle and beautiful doctrine.

>> No.6962732

>>6962712
>mass
Made*

>> No.6963100
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6963100

Though I'm also not too familiar with the concept, I'm aware of the idea of the body being resurrected in its ideal state after the second coming. The notion of the body passing from life, to death, back to life is reflected in post-plague art often. Particularly in tombs (see "cadaver tombs" or "transi tombs", pic is of one). Perhaps this ties into the belief of a New Earth, or is a perversion of it.

I always thought maybe they'd be reunited with their perfect bodies in heaven or something, but I'm an art historian, not a theologian.

>> No.6963120

Egoism, and people stopped believing they would live to see the End Times, so the concern of what would happen to Earth stopped mattering because people were sure they would die and ascend to heaven long before the End Times arrived.

>> No.6963135

>>6963120
The Catholic church at some point changed their tune, saying people doing good works (donations to the church, sometomes the poor) could get an express ticket to heaven and not wait in purgatory for the weighing of souls. Hence all that shit leading up to the reformation.

Money motivates everything.

>> No.6963148

>>6963135
>saying people doing good works (donations to the church, sometomes the poor) could get an express ticket to heaven and not wait in purgatory for the weighing of souls.
that's a misunderstanding of indulgences

>> No.6963155

>>6963135
Also do not underestimate the effect of age on the religion. Early on people were psyched about the return of Christ. They were waiting for it, eagerly. Every time a symbolic date rolled around people got antsy (still happens even to this day, to a lesser degree).

Basically, the wait for Jesus to come back took its toll. It became a meme, essentially. It's like people waiting for GRRM to finish his books. Eventually you stop thinking it will happen, it just lingers in the back of your mind as an eventuality, something that WILL occur, someday, probably not in your lifetime. Only in GRRM's case I seriously hope nobody forms a religion around waiting for his return to bless the world with book 7.

>> No.6963159

>>6963148
No, for a time during the Middle Ages the Catholic Church actually was a somewhat corrupt institution that promised people they could by their way into heaven. The Council of Trent and the Counter-Reformation were necessities.

>> No.6963180

>>6963159
not really, there were corruptions, sure, but to say the Catholic Church was the sneaky devil behind them is detached from reality. Most of the statements regarding the "corruption" of indulgences come from a single bishop (or priest, dont remember) who was known for his use of hyperbole.
Indulgences still exist, but the word has gained a stigma in contemporary society because of Protestant memery making the actual statements regarding indulgences unrecognizable

>> No.6963192

>>6963180
>but to say the Catholic Church was the sneaky devil behind them is detached from reality
I'm Catholic. The devil behind the corruptions was clearly the Devil. That doesn't eliminate the fact that many priests and bishops were corrupt.

>> No.6963201

>>6963192
>The devil behind the corruptions was clearly the Devil
>mfw

>> No.6963215

>>6963192
except the statement "many bishops and priests were corrupt" isnt a fact at all. Protestantism was such a big phenomenon that not only did it deform Christianity but it deformed the whole history behind it

>> No.6963397

>>6963215
Are you saying that there have never been corrupt priests and bishops? Are you saying there's never been an Antipope? The time period in question extends well before the emergence of Protestantism, so I don't see how you can just blame the Protestants for genuine problems in the pre-Reformation Church.

>> No.6963755

>>6963397
no, i say there havent been "many", but considering that Christianity has had a history of 2000 years (1500 pre reformation) many could be an appropiate term. The problem i had with it is that it wasnt clear on the meaning (many as opposed to what? the whole group of bishops? or many as in a large cuantity?)

Yes, there have been Antipopes, there are some of them right now in Latin America. Antipope is just another claimant to the holy office.

>> No.6963989

>>6963201
What's the matter, fedora tipper, afraid of the things that go bump in the night?