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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature


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6897711 No.6897711 [Reply] [Original]

http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

Why is he so right, lads?

>> No.6897718

>>6897711
Because capitalism a shit.

>> No.6897759

This is the new thread for cool dudes.

>> No.6897775
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6897775

>>6897759

>> No.6897780

>>6897775
Dude, anime is cool as HECK.

>> No.6897783

>>6897711
that's pretty long, can you sum it up and give me the important points?

>> No.6897786

>>6897783
People should only work for 4 hours instead of 8.

>> No.6897796

>>6897780
No.

>> No.6897806

>>6897783
>Modern technique has made it possible to diminish enormously the amount of labor required to secure the necessaries of life for everyone. This was made obvious during the war. At that time all the men in the armed forces, and all the men and women engaged in the production of munitions, all the men and women engaged in spying, war propaganda, or Government offices connected with the war, were withdrawn from productive occupations. In spite of this, the general level of well-being among unskilled wage-earners on the side of the Allies was higher than before or since. The significance of this fact was concealed by finance: borrowing made it appear as if the future was nourishing the present. But that, of course, would have been impossible; a man cannot eat a loaf of bread that does not yet exist. The war showed conclusively that, by the scientific organization of production, it is possible to keep modern populations in fair comfort on a small part of the working capacity of the modern world. If, at the end of the war, the scientific organization, which had been created in order to liberate men for fighting and munition work, had been preserved, and the hours of the week had been cut down to four, all would have been well. Instead of that the old chaos was restored, those whose work was demanded were made to work long hours, and the rest were left to starve as unemployed. Why? Because work is a duty, and a man should not receive wages in proportion to what he has produced, but in proportion to his virtue as exemplified by his industry.

>This is the morality of the Slave State, applied in circumstances totally unlike those in which it arose. No wonder the result has been disastrous. Let us take an illustration. Suppose that, at a given moment, a certain number of people are engaged in the manufacture of pins. They make as many pins as the world needs, working (say) eight hours a day. Someone makes an invention by which the same number of men can make twice as many pins: pins are already so cheap that hardly any more will be bought at a lower price. In a sensible world, everybody concerned in the manufacturing of pins would take to working four hours instead of eight, and everything else would go on as before. But in the actual world this would be thought demoralizing. The men still work eight hours, there are too many pins, some employers go bankrupt, and half the men previously concerned in making pins are thrown out of work. There is, in the end, just as much leisure as on the other plan, but half the men are totally idle while half are still overworked. In this way, it is insured that the unavoidable leisure shall cause misery all round instead of being a universal source of happiness. Can anything more insane be imagined?

>> No.6897851
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6897851

You might like this
http://moussemagazine.it/articolo.mm?id=1071

>> No.6897857

>>6897851
Thanks, looks interesting. I really like sloths.

>> No.6898083

>>6897718
it's the only thing compatible with human nature

>> No.6898120

>>6897711
>Why is he so right, lads?

Too bad we are further away from what he says than when he wrote it. Globalization is just going to/is making it worse. Competition between all the worlds advanced economies is just going to force us to work more and more. We will never see a reduction. At least not in our lifetimes.

>> No.6898131

>>6898120
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

The idea of basic income is garnering support and has been very effective where it has been trialled. I think we will see it tried properly somewhere in the next ten years.

>> No.6898138

>>6898120
We are when automatisation gets to the point that we won't be able to make up bullshit jobs any more. There's already barely anything to do for a lot of first worlders.

>> No.6898153

>>6897780
No.

>> No.6898228
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6898228

>>6898083
>Muh human nature

>> No.6899001

>>6898131
the neet age is coming

>> No.6899065

>>6899001
There will be more produced, not less worked.

>> No.6899082

>>6899065
What are we going to do with all the stuff?

>> No.6899123

>>6899082
store it or try to trick people into buying it

>> No.6899202

>>6899065
Automatisation necessarily implies less work and it's inevitable.

>> No.6899291

>tfw laws against planned obsolescence will never be put in place

Everything would be practically free within a decade.

Of course this would be bad because >muh jobs, but just imagine a world where value produced by work constantly accumulated. We'd all be living like kings while working 3 hours a day.

>> No.6899303

>>6899291
>We'd all be living like kings while working 3 hours a day.

I really don't think it'd work out that way. Even if it did, is that good? Should the automatization of labor be something to strive toward, given how humanity up till now has kind of been defined by struggle? What happens if we no longer struggle?

>> No.6899307

>>6897780
Get out nerd

>> No.6899316

>>6899303
We might end up with pre-IR Britain aka the greatest time to be a poor farmer.

>> No.6899317

>>6899291
> Everything would be practically free
No, as wages would plummet as the production of industrial goods would have to face reduced profit margins.

Albeit this can be beneficial in accelerating the move to service economy.

>> No.6899418

>>6899303
Why is it necessary to struggle for material goods?

Why not just spend more time with family, or on hobbies? American Indian tribes used to pass their time having big feasts and destroying excess production/priceless relics and art. Personally I want to see something like that.

>>6899317
Maybe we should have a control economy then, where those unneeded workers are put to work building roads and train systems or designing rocket ships.

>> No.6899435

>>6899303
Working isn't exactly a struggle. In developed countries the majority of jobs are cushy. They are just monotonous and force a boring routine where many feel unfulfilled.

>> No.6899442

>>6899303
>Even if it did, is that good? Should the automatization of labor be something to strive toward, given how humanity up till now has kind of been defined by struggle? What happens if we no longer struggle?
Ask the Greeks. They founded Western civilisation because they outsourced the labour to slaves.

>> No.6899500

>>6899442
>tfw no technocratic society of NEETs

Anyone want to take over Alaska with me? We could get obscenely rich off oil money, automate all our labor, and force everyone to devote their time to exercise, military training, philosophy, and butt-sex. When SHTF we take a chunk of Russia for slave labor. It would be paradise.

>> No.6899520

>>6899500
Nice dubs but doesn't constant toil to preserve the state defeat the purpose of NEETdom?

>> No.6899528
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6899528

>not already being a welfare NEET (if you aren't rich)

There's the idle life already. Feels good man.

>> No.6899570
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6899570

>>6897806
Pretty based.

>> No.6899855

you'd have to be a weeaboo faggot to deny the value of good, honest hard work but at the same time I think it's tragic we get one life to live and it's spent slaving away doing the kind of work i pretentiously call "entropic upkeep". clerical, mopping floors, bagging groceries, stupid bullshit that just needs to be done.

what a fucking shame.

>> No.6899885
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6899885

Thomist viewpoint incoming

>> No.6899913
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6899913

Can't muller the Fuller.

>> No.6899993

>>6897780
>on 4chan
> liking anime unironically

>> No.6899998

>>6899913

I agree with the circumstance of jobs but some people are just better off working than thinking, especially manual work

>> No.6900006
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6900006

>>6898083
>human nature

>> No.6900016

>>6899520
No because that constant toil would consist of acting macho, working out, and taking Russian sex slaves.

>> No.6900032

>>6899528
I want to into this welfare thing, but how? Sounds comfy tbh

>> No.6900038

>>6898228
>>6900006
its a huge over generalization but yes, there are things we typically like doing as humans.

>> No.6900040

>>6900006
emps take a break

>> No.6900045
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6900045

>>6897780
Well banged, my friend.

>> No.6900054

>>6897796
>>6898153
>>6899307
>>6899993
>>6900045
I love anime.

>> No.6900152

>>6899855
>work has inherent value

What makes you think so?

>> No.6900168

>>6897711
>In Praise of Idleness
>People in thread like anime

I'm not surprised. Enjoy making more and more excuses for your worthless lifestyle.

ITT: NEETs trying to justify their miserable lives.

>> No.6900170

I both love and dislike Bertrand Russell. I dislike the strongly acedemic philosophy he helped to create, but think he was a genuinly great guy with an almost mystical personality despite his own reservations about such thinking.

>> No.6900300

>>6900168
What do you mean by worthless? Not economically productive?

That's a pretty sad standard to live by.

>> No.6900387

>>6900300
As if NEETs who watch anime are productive in any way.

>> No.6900438

>>6900387
Who said that they were?

Why are you obsessed with productivity?

>> No.6900539
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6900539

who /never work/ here?

>> No.6901108
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6901108

To the communists of lit

Is being a NEET even a good idea?

>> No.6901112

>>6901108
It's a great idea, mainly because you don't have to work.

>> No.6901833
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6901833

>>6901112
working is a condition. By not working, you force other people to work more.

>> No.6901912

>>6901108
NEET is a terrible social concept, to be honest. For example, people said that NEETs are unproductive. However, a social worker on the internet (I forgot what site it is) admitted that the presence of NEETs created many types of jobs for people in the UK. This just shows you how much bullshit they came up from modifying Marx's original concept, 'reserve army of labor'. Except that, instead of people who tried to redefine academically the concept within contemporary context, 'NEETs' are a concept which only function is to be a source of income, literally NGO and contractor money tree.

If you come out with a counter-argument that 'NEETs are inherently unproductive' then you're massive retard. Economy is a social phenomenon, thus an isolated agency within the economy is nonsensical.

>> No.6901956

>>6901912
NEETs are productive as long as they spend money.

>> No.6901975

>>6901912
What exactly do NEETs produce? Jobs?

And what do those jobs produce? Nothing?

Sounds pretty unproductive to me. Production entails aiding society in some way, not putting a drain on it's resources.

>> No.6902056

>>6901975
Those jobs give money to people who wouldn't have jobs otherwise, buying goods and paying taxes to fund more jobs doing the same.

If you think this is absurd, consider that modern economies are absurd generally.

>> No.6902063

>>6900000

>> No.6902570

>>6901833
You mean by rather hiring one guy full time than four guys part time, the bourgeoisie is forcing some people to sit around doing nothing and others to work their ass off.

>> No.6902580

>>6901975
Most jobs aren't 'productive' any more because we have become too productive already at this level of efficiency. We're already making more stuff than we can possibly need.

>> No.6903961

>>6897786
>People should only work for 4 hours instead of 8.

I do this. It's still too much.

>> No.6903963

>>6903961
We could be down to 10 hours per week now tbh.

>> No.6903964

>>6903961
Same here. I went from working 48 hours to 20~ and it still feels just as long.

>> No.6903978

>>6901975
Like Russel says, consumption is just as important as production. People like you never seem to think about this. It's all about muh productivity.

The handful of NEETs in a country (relative to it's population) don't need to work. Modern economies already vastly overproduce. They already help the economy plenty by consuming.

>> No.6904010

>>6903964
I work 20 hours a week and am completely fine with it, but my circumstances are fairly uncommon. I'm a cashier at a local store, and my boss allows (hell, encourages) me to bring books and read during downtime (which we have plenty of). Fucking hate jobs where you're expected to maintain the guise of productivity even when there's no actual work to be done.

>> No.6904049

>>6903964
my main problem is that, although i only work ~20 hrs a week I still have to work 5 days per week.

>> No.6904071

>>6904010
>Fucking hate jobs where you're expected to maintain the guise of productivity even when there's no actual work to be done.

This is why i hate my job. If they let me bring books or something i would be perfectly content.

I work on the backdoor in a supermarket unloading trucks, which usually takes 2-3 hours on most days unless it's really busy. For the rest of my shift i have to stand around pretending to do busy work even though i have nothing to do. It's fucking maddening.

Don't know why employers do this to people.

>> No.6904197

>>6903978
This.

In fact, giving NEETs more NEETbux so they can spend more would even be advantageous to the economy.

>> No.6905690

>>6903978
>>6904197
>welfare queens trying to justify their leeching

Why not de-fund the NEET Coddling Program and lower taxes?

>> No.6905724
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6905724

>>6900152
idleness and leisure is soul rot. you might think, "Oh well ill be doing things i like to do, how could that be bad?" but you'd be working towards something, probably writing or making music or whatever.

work, as an expenditure of energy towards some desired goal, is great, but the connotation now is "cleaning lanes at a bowling alley" so it leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouths

>> No.6905746

>>6905690
more people would be looking for jobs, wages and conditions would be lowered, and everyone would be worse off.

>> No.6905756

>>6905746
less taxes = more consumption = more business = more jobs

Do you not understand basic supply-side economics?

>> No.6905758

>>6905756
are you trolling?

>> No.6905942

>>6905724
>work, as an expenditure of energy towards some desired goal, is great, but the connotation now is "cleaning lanes at a bowling alley" so it leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouths

Except that's not the definition anybody here is operating on.

>> No.6905968

'The impact of science on society'

>> No.6907232

>>6905690
Rich people tend to stack their money, poor people tend to spend their money. Therefore less taxes would mean more money sitting idly in bank accounts. More welfare would mean more money spent and put back into the economy.

If you want to guarantee that money stays in circulation, give it to a poorfag.

>> No.6907239

>>6905724
I thought you meant work as in employment. I don't see the inherent value in that, although voluntary purposeful activity can be a great thing, like the creative activities you mentioned.

>> No.6907248

>>6897783
It is not long you lazy fuck. For Christ sake, read something for once

>> No.6907255

>>6907248
>too lazy to read In Praise of Idleness

I think he's got it down.

>> No.6908354

>>6900300
No, they're worthless in the sense that anime, and video games, are a waste of intellect.

>> No.6908373

the only way to be lazy is by exploiting the labour of poor people. congrats on being a shitlord.

>> No.6908429

/lit/ I'm bored and want some action, with some bloodlust too
Should I join the Special Forces in order to achieve Kleos