Games vs books

[Anonymous No.6868535]

>"books are too linear, games encourage you to create your own story"
>"video games encourage problem solving and critical thinking"
>"video games are more social"
>"video games make you much smarter"
>"literature is a dated form of media"

Is it true what they say? That video games are better than books?

[Anonymous No.6868566]

>>6868535
You'll notice the only people who say such things are trying to defend video games from imaginary attacks that were the norm a decade ago but now lie forgotten.

[Anonymous No.6868581]

>>6868535
>"books are too linear, games encourage you to create your own story"
With a book, you get to envision an idyllic world within the necessary boundaries determined by the character and environmental specifics.
With a video game, you choose what your character does in a world that's already set in stone.
>"video games encourage problem solving and critical thinking"
Almost not at all. With a book, you're putting together interlacing storylines, picking out subtleties, and constantly reworking your perception of the written word.
What do you do in video games? Ring the bells according to a card? Right, critical thinking. Got it.
>"video games are more social"
No they're not. Video games require isolation from your social life. Even if you're playing multiplayer locally, you're still using the video game to distract from immediate interaction.
>"video games make you much smarter"
where are you pulling these from
>"literature is a dated form of media"
video games are now dated too, friendo ;)

[Anonymous No.6868585]

>>6868566
And you'll also find that the only people defending literature are people who are actually so bored in life that they're willing to defend a form of personal entertainment.

>>6868535
Both are a form of personal entertainment. If you want to play a game, go play a game. And don't hold yourself to only Battlefield, Minecraft and WoW because that's what the majority plays. You can also play other games if you want, even if someone says that their form of personal entertainment is better.
But what if you want to read a book instead? There's more than Harry Potter, Fifty Shades and Gatsby out there.

I say, if you get violently assaulted for your choice in personal entertainment when you just want to kick back and relax after work, then start a pride movement rather than a /lit/ thread.

[Anonymous No.6868595]

Games are shit TBH. Don't get me wrong they can be fun in a time wasting way and they are here to stay, but I think they are shallow in general.

Besides you have to write a game in the first place. Same problem with film. Most start with shit, poorly written material and come out essentially turds with many industry tricks applied to make that as unnoticeable as possible.

[Anonymous No.6868615]

>>6868535
>they
Undefined

Games are a waste of one's life. You learn nothing. No skills.

Teamwork? No. It's a bunch of screaming and trying to be the best if multiplayer.

Reflexes? Laugh.

Any knowledge at all? No (this does not include simulator games, which are beneficial IMO).

Social? Sure. In this regard, video games are better than books. But books aren't a social media anyway.

There is nothing we are even comparing. 'Best' isn't defined or relative to any criteria. 0/10

[Anonymous No.6868622]

>>6868535
so you compare a media that has a range from childbooks, treasure island, harry potter, do robots dream of electric sheep, the shadow over insmouth to books like 50 shades of grey and the twilight saga.
to a media that has a range going from tetris over blobby volley, half life, diablo, civilisation to Call of Doooooty.
And try to bring it down to a simepl one sentence catch phrase? Good luck.

Also:
Games are art because [insert game title here] is art.
Games aren't art because [insert game title here] isn't art.
is just as valid to apply to books

[Anonymous No.6868625]

Games are pretty shit nowadays.

[Anonymous No.6868631]

>>6868615
what did you learn from the last two word success stories, twilight and 50 shades of grey then?

[Anonymous No.6868632]

Games have one advantage over books, and one advantage only


Multiplayer

[Anonymous No.6868644]

>>6868632
yeah, then try to bring portal to life in book form, that's gonna be fun to read.

[Anonymous No.6868646]

>>6868535

[Anonymous No.6868649]

>>6868631
what did you gain from playing generic military shooter #21740, then?

[Anonymous No.6868654]

>>6868615
I'm glad I realized this before I woke up as a 35 year old man child browsing /v/ on the daily.

[Anonymous No.6868658]

>>6868644
>Babby's first I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream

[Anonymous No.6868659]

>>6868632
Books do have multiplayer. It's called literary criticism.

[Anonymous No.6868664]

>>6868632
Roberto Bolanho loved to play traditional games. shit like risk and whatnot.

I guess those games are better, but im not geek enough to get into.

[Anonymous No.6868665]

>>6868649
>>6868622

>>Also:
>>Games are art because [insert game title here] is art.
>>Games aren't art because [insert game title here] isn't art.
>>is just as valid to apply to books

u see where this is going ?

[Anonymous No.6868667]

>>6868646
hahaha more like this please
here's a little something i post on /v/ to get the gaming dorks riled up

[Anonymous No.6868669]

The sentiments literature expresses today are devoid of authenticity and are based on mere convention. Expression and representation as values are no longer self-evident in our post-industrial society. The novelist has been doomed to a reflection on the linguistic medium. Representation and expression in literature are simply anachronistic. All that's left is the affirmation of the senselessness of language.

[Anonymous No.6868680]

*looks away from the screen which shows geralt having sex and stares directly at the camera with an expression of surprise* moby dick sucks

[Anonymous No.6868688]

>>6868669
Expression and representation in a written medium are possible regardless of cultural shift. This is a nonsensical post

[Anonymous No.6868735]

is any book as thought provoking as minecraft?

[Anonymous No.6868779]

Oh man, I just saw this thread on /v/, they get really upset when you mention that video games are childish. http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/303676304#top

[Anonymous No.6868780]

>>6868735
How about a book that has real mining and real crafting?

[Anonymous No.6868790]

WHY are you still replying to this thread?

[Anonymous No.6868791]

>>6868780
it was a joke my friend

is any book series as epic as final fantasy or dragon quest series?

[Anonymous No.6868796]

>>6868667
wow, it's like looking into a mirror!

[Anonymous No.6868804]

The idea of liberation in a video game excedes the idea of liberation in a book. The notion that you literally control the figure on the screen to do as you wish exceeds the stuffy format of 'understanding the authors intention'. This liberty, taken to extremes, turns imagined environments into real worlds. Books can get you close to an imagined world that suppercedes reality, but they lack the supportive roll of other participants. (On the off chance that a group of people get together to actualize the world of a book into reality - far beyond the mere 'book club chatter', what better way than to interpret it into a video game). The failure of video games to date has to do with the failure to incorporate seguays to higher education. You can read Ulyses as a book and turn around and pick up a science book or a math book. You can go to college for math, science, or merely reading Ulyses. Juxtapose this against the fact that you can cook fake meals in world of Warcraft. Though an interesting elaboration of a certain digital freedom of expression I wouldn't count it among the most pertinent things I would like to do with myself in a hypothetical universe where, if you could convince the programmers, you could literally ride a comet, survive the world devastating explosion, possess the monster that you would normally have to fight as an alternative option among countless options and rebuild the planet. The video game at worst constricts the situation of the self which it holds over the book which innately confines you to, even while merciful, to the codification that begets its continued possibility of understanding. One of the foremost difficulties of the video game has to do with overcoming forced 'discoveries' as a mode of linear motion that tends to make gameplay 'book like' - as in sequential story telling events. Nothing can overcome a book in terms of density of signification. If a game could it would impress me, but I havnt seen it. If you could get such a thing 'optionality' would have to flicker like it does in real life. But enough of my rant.

[Anonymous No.6868821]

>>6868804
>the stuffy format of 'understanding the authors intention'

Stopped reading there. If you honestly think this is the 'format' of books, holy shit.

[Anonymous No.6868823]

>>6868804
I think games are at their best basically long puzzles. I don't think anyone is going to argue that a puzzle really has a lot of "depth" more like, it's a challenge to complete. Like a long and complicated book.

[Anonymous No.6868839]

i think the most interesting artistic aspect of games is the creation of virtual three dimensional spaces you can experience and explore. game architecture is genuinely fucking fascinating to me, from corridors to open worlds, the way people imply space beyond that you can interact with, the styles of ornamenting environments, the way they work narratively driving through the story as you explore it. shit is interesting and neat

[Anonymous No.6868840]

>>6868667
>average /lit/ user

[Anonymous No.6868882]

>>6868535
>be me
>be and avid reader for years
>fuck up, fall into a depression
>start playing video games to escape for a couple months
>finally figure myself out, get out of depression
>realize I'm not half as articulate as I was before my fall
True story m8s.

[Anonymous No.6868883]

>>6868581
>No they're not. Video games require isolation from your social life. Even if you're playing multiplayer locally, you're still using the video game to distract from immediate interaction.
As opposed to reading.

[Anonymous No.6868931]

>>6868659
That's not multiplayer. Literary criticism is masturbation which is a solo act.

[Anonymous No.6868936]

>>6868823
Puzzle scenarios have a 'correct answer' - like if you had a game that made it necessary to solve differential equations to proceed. I'm not overlooking how visualization in games makes puzzle construction radically easier than to have a physical puzzle. Though, books tend to articulate riddles better. What maters in each has to do with the running articulation of the set of encounter. In language we like to have a linear paradigm so that we can articulate our thoughts intimately. How else could we form a coherent sentence? The world of a video game exists ideally in a causally indeterminate total simulation of imagination not as necessarily actual, but as constantly possible. Perhaps one can achieve something like the same thing with logic in philosophy, though the collision of the text and the video-pictological world we cannot deny or usurp.

[Anonymous No.6868954]

Can we pleae keep the video games in /v/?

[Anonymous No.6868990]

>>6868954
No, because the mods are indolent gods.

[Anonymous No.6868995]

>>6868823
I'm considering the 'create your own puzzle mode' as a kind of writing the game while playing it. Akin to noting in the margins of text. What's unusual has to do with the immanence/transcendence of any particular moment. The observation of which causes me to turn back on some of my earlier comments.
I.e. That 'paramountness' that moments in video games and text instigate for the consumer or that the author generates presumably blinded by that instantiation himself or in order to blind artistically. Really the strangeness of living in such a world with ethos and pathos so dimensionally aligned; seemingly at the cusp of creation and destruction somehow sliding beneath the codification of even the nothing of the thing in question in order that you can see, shockingly, the total freedom of possibility in an instant actualized as the moment in question.

[Anonymous No.6869003]

>>6868585
Literature isn't entertainment you massive philistine.

[Anonymous No.6869012]

>>6869003
>muh irony
Don't you know these are the years of New Sincerity?

[Anonymous No.6869021]

>>6868669
That was postmodernism m8. We're beyond that now as a reaction.

[Anonymous No.6869049]

>>6869003
Where do video games stop marketing as entertainment and become a viable mode of existence qua lifestyle. Not video'games' but videological existence terminologically descriptive of a form of life.

[Anonymous No.6869056]

>>6869049
I mean by which; what makes (at least) 3d rendering any less essential to life as sentence structure?

[Anonymous No.6869109]

>>6868535

>"books are too linear, games encourage you to create your own story"

The only game that remotely comes close to giving the player the ability to 'create' his own story is a simulation game called Dwarf Fortress, and the entertainment value of these 'stories' is created by the random events that occur that are chosen by the computer, not the player. Every other game is linear, except for a few which let you choose a premade ending to its bland and cliché narrative that is selected based on how many times the player picked a 'good' or 'evil' option over the other.

>"video games encourage problem solving and critical thinking"

Not the popular ones. This is the same with books, however, in that the popular ones offer no difficulty or intellectual reward. However, the many good books which offer these same exact things are of a higher quality and quantity than the videogames which do.

>"video games are more social"

That depends on the game, and the quality of the social interaction with most multiplayer videogames is very low. You could literally just join a book club instead, and that would benefit you far more than screaming at someone because they abused an unfair advantage offered to them in a game due to its bad design.

>"video games make you much smarter"

Nothing makes you smarter besides challenging your intellect, and books are far better suited to that than fucking videogames, and they have a higher amount of things to teach.


>"literature is a dated form of media"

Just because something is older than something else doesn't make it worse than it, or better, for that matter. Breathing happens to be a pretty old activity, if that bothers you, no one is stopping you from choking yourself.

[Anonymous No.6869143]

Insinuating so that the lurker can decide for himself how much absurdity will ensue by refering to the general suck of most new books and the demand for once in a century masterpieces contra the fact that videogames have literally existed for less than a single century.

[Anonymous No.6869173]

>>6869049
The Brain Age games and Wii Fit series could be considered more than entertainment.

[Anonymous No.6869184]

>>6868535
You forgot:
>Interactivity makes of video games a superior art form
Like if the lack of Quick Time Events in books were a bad thing.
You are just taking decissions in a very limited spectrum of choice the developers already had set; there is no imagination, no thinking, usually little originality (genre patterns are way too strict in video games; series of games that extend for decades in time to appeal to manchildrens' nostalgia, etc.), and dull themes that at best can be considered good only in a "middle brow" culture perspective.

I actually do love video games (well, at least until this new wave of "cinematic experience" bullshit fashion that has been out for years), but the efforts of illiterate middle-class dipshits to justify or deny their philistineness are cringeworthy. Manchildren claiming they have "artsy" taste because they played "The Last of Us" are laughable.

Also, is curious how they often despise mildly interesting ideas in order to stay at their "comfort zone". For instance, we have the case of MGS2: yeah, may be it's not briliantly written (perhaps we could blame the translation?), but the idea of Raiden representing the own player and inserting it in the game narrative was kinda nice; but again, manchildren were mad because Raiden represented them in a way they were not commited to accept; instead, they cried for years wanting their beloved Solid Snake back.

[Anonymous No.6869185]

>>6868535
The same goes for books as goes with video games.

99% are trash for the weak minded.

1% are incredible artistic forms of expression.

You are going to get much more out of reading high literature than you are Call of Duty.

You are going to get much more out of Metal Gear Solid than you are John Green.

I like both forms.
I also like film.
I do play stupid games.
I do read stupid books.
I do watch stupid movies
But I know that they are stupid escapism.
And I also read the higher reaches of each medium.

I have fun.

/v/ and /lit/ don't understand that concept because of their whole...you know, self-esteem issues?

[Anonymous No.6869190]

>>6868535
I play video games for the storytelling aspects and world building; a psychogeography of sorts or that which Rimbaud called robinsonneurism.

Some favorites:
Dark Souls and Demon's Souls for the storytelling through art design

STALKER for the atmosphere, the very air feels dismal.

Quake for the map design

VtmB for neo-romanticism, capturing the late 90s now and forever.

Yume Nikki for a true interactive Lynchian dreamlike terror wonder

Metroid games for Xenobiology and Xenogeology

No More Heroes for lazy summer afternoons in concrete dystopia marred with bloody and deadly encounters with fetishistic killers

Killer 7 for the examination of violent psyche

Hotline Miami because it infuses the notion of sudden violence into daily strolls you take; whilst in a bakery you expect the floors to become inundated with gore

Ikaruga for being the very avatar of persistence; a hail of projectiles seen through a metaphysical curtain

etc

give it a shot, gaming is a great supplement to literature. Stimulates thought.

[Anonymous No.6869197]

>>6868615

>Games are a waste of one's life. You learn nothing. No skills.
>Reflexes

Gamers show a rise in problem solving and reflexes. This is a fact.

[Anonymous No.6869215]

>>6868535
i love how videogames and anime always trigger lit, while posting on 4chan.

[Anonymous No.6869220]

>>6869197
A biased fact by the liberal media to convince us to be willingly slow and stupid.

[Anonymous No.6869242]

>>6869190
Damn.
Anyone else remember Afterburner?

[Anonymous No.6869246]

none of these matters because no matter the media I consume I will still be an ugly useless depressed loser living in my shoebox apartment desperately trying to pass the time so I don't kill myself

[Anonymous No.6869260]

There is no book with a writing similar to STARLESS, prove me wrong.

[Anonymous No.6869335]

>>6868535
>"video games are more social"
>"video games make you much smarter"
>"literature is a dated form of media"

I agree with everything except these points. Discussing your favorite games with your friends is half the fun, but people also like to discuss their favorite books, films or albums. I would say the social element is pretty much the same among the various types of media.

As for video games making you smarter, they may help with certain problem-solving skills, but you're ignoring the fact that most knowledge is acquired through textbooks. If I wanted to learn something new, naturally I would pick up a book on the subject and start researching it.

As for literature being dated, I'm not even sure where you're going with that point. Modern literature doesn't exist?


Regardless, I do prefer video games to literature. I really enjoy world-building and sandbox games for some of the reasons you already mentioned. Open-world RPGs are also nice, especially the writers put a lot of thought into how you can influence the development or atmosphere of the world.

[Anonymous No.6869359]

books are for stupid idiots

prove me wrong

[Anonymous No.6869377]

>>6869109
>The only game that remotely comes close to giving the player the ability to 'create' his own story is a simulation game called Dwarf Fortress

RPG Maker, Fallout: New Vegas, Baldur's Gate, The Sims, arguably Mass Effect and Star Ocean, numerous adventure-genre games...

Some games are full-blown world building, like Minecraft or RPG Maker. Other games may have an underlying plot, but multiple endings and / or plot alterations depending on something like a morality system. Some of them can get very complex.

I don't think your point is valid at all.

[Anonymous No.6869410]

>>6869377

>Every other game is linear, except for a few which let you choose a premade ending to its bland and cliché narrative that is selected based on how many times the player picked a 'good' or 'evil' option over the other.

[Anonymous No.6869446]

>>6868535
>"books are too linear, games encourage you to create your own story"
No. Games like Fallout and Skyrim give the player options, but those options are still the work of a game developer. Fallout and Skyrim are just the "Choose Your Own Adventure Books" of videogames.

>"video games encourage problem solving and critical thinking"
A little, but the player is still working within the confines of what the game allows him to do. Books, admittedly, aren't much better, though they may provide the reader with new concepts and ways to approach a problem. Regardless, real life experiences trump both of these, here.

>"video games are more social"
Some games are social, but the majority of gamers play by themselves or with people who they will never meet, in real life, and with whom the majority of interactions are based upon how to progress through a game. They can be social, but they probably won't help to progress your social skills.

One could make the argument, though, that, while reading is a solitary activity, many books provide realistic dialogues which could, in theory, help a person develop, socially. More likely, it won't, so much, but it WILL develop a person's vocabulary. For social interaction, join a book club.

>"video games make you much smarter"
How? Most video games draw in players simply by offering them a story and immaterial rewards (e.g. I played for ten hours, straight, got all the golden keys, and, now, I have a whole new costume for my character!). Furthermore, video games entice players by providing them with non-stop action. There's minimal dialogue and, usually, minimal story and character development and the little that IS there is inserted in between long stretches of action sequences. They're just keeping your endorphin and adrenaline levels peaked, so that you feel good. This isn't bad, in small doses, but it can become addictive and it lowers a person's ability to delay gratification.

Reading, doesn't, always, get adrenaline pumping, simply by virtue of the fact that it moves at a slower pace. However, books are more capable of evoking a wide array of emotions than video games and this is, in large part, due to the fact that video games (those with storylines and not so much puzzle games and the like) are action based. Books can cover a wider variety of genres because, while the storylines of videogames can be made into decent books, most books cannot be made into decent videogames. A thought-provoking literary adaptation of Portal might have potential, but a videogame adaptation of Dr. Zhivago would be pretty awful, since you'd spend most of the game being cold in Russia. It's a work of art that a videogame just couldn't capture.

Moreover, reading requires that a reader exercise his or her imagination and helps to expand vocabulary, whereas videogames do not (or do to a much lesser extent).

[Anonymous No.6869447]

>>6869446
>"literature is a dated form of media"
What? Because it's been around for a long time? Might as well say that fermentation is an outdated form of food preservation and, since clean water is readily available, as are several sources of calories, we no longer need beer, wine, liquor, etc..

People still enjoy reading, it's still a cheap(er) way to tell a story, and it's a form of individual, artistic expression. Video games are the artistic expression of dozens of people, working together, in the hopes of creating a bankable product.

>Is it true what they say? That video games are better than books?
No. Some people prefer video games, some people prefer books, and some people will go back and forth. It's completely subjective, but books are, without a doubt, better for cognitive development.

Videogames have their place. They provide necessary escapism, immediately drop a player into action, and can entertain a tired brain when it craves entertainment, but is too beat to read. So long as it doesn't take over a person's life and they still read, regularly (or engage in forms of entertainment that exercise their brains), I don't see the harm.

[Anonymous No.6869460]

Street Fighter is a game. Pong is a game. Chess is a game.

"Games" today are "game+movie" or "game+book." They're stapled together abominations that don't do either thing particularly well.

[Anonymous No.6869463]

>>6869410

Clearly you haven't played half the games I just mentioned.

Go and play Fallout: New Vegas sometime. Most every option is morally gray. There is no consistent narrative or goal. People like you or vilify you on an individual basis, and their respect or disrespect for you has nothing to do with how other individuals treat you. Any of the so-called "good" guys in the game are involved in some questionable stuff, and if you don't even want to bother siding with any of them, you can just kill them all and rid the region from any and all outside influence.

[Anonymous No.6869476]

>>6868535
Yep, of course, a 40-year-old medium far surpasses literature, which is millennia old.

[Anonymous No.6869550]

>>6869463
It had the oppurtunity for some good moral conumdrums, but instead one major faction was a rump state of US parliamentary democracy and the other was a slave based dictatorship

[Anonymous No.6869559]

>>6869463
This is what you get from people who have read 4 books.
I love Fallout and Witcher, but let's face it, none of them are particularly well written or carry meaningful depth

[Anonymous No.6869579]

>>6869463

The guy who made the longer older post, me, is not the guy who just responded to you, who only quoted me.

I admit I was overgeneralizing in my post, I was predominantly thinking of fable and some other crappy games. I actually have played and enjoyed new vegas. But my point wasn't that it's always good/evil, lawful/chaotic, red/blue, it was that the endings were already made, you didn't have creative influence at all, you just chose an ending, even if you didn't know exactly what it was going to be.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Anonymous No.6869597]

>>6868581
>video games require isolation even with local multiplayer
>using this as an argument for reading
classic /lit/

[Anonymous No.6869604]

>>6869056
Once developers know how to meaningfully integrate gameplay into the aesthetic or the theme they intend to craft, 3D rendering will be as valid of a medium as any other. What I mean is, pressing a button or not must have more purpose in the art, just as mise en scene is to film and cinematography.

[Anonymous No.6869665]

Video games have great potential, but it is squandered by its youth. At some point, however, that excuse no longer becomes valid (see: movies). Right now, games are, by and large, prevented from advancing to something worthwhile and meaningful. The main problems, I'm guessing, being the excessive consumerism swarming the industry, the primary focus on the technical aspects (e.g. coding, graphical fidelity), and that gaming is detached from the humanities. How familiar is the average developer with novels, poetry, or film? What about the average gamer? The artistic media all have a sort of symbiotic relationship, all of them except games.

But there are some good games out there, such as those listed in >>6869190 KotOR II is a favourite of mine, even though it plays like ass.

[Anonymous No.6869684]

>>6869665
you are talking out of your ass

if anything video games are devolving

[Anonymous No.6869717]

>>6868535
And my threads get deleted and I banned.
Nigger what gives.

[Anonymous No.6869846]

>>6869665
>e.g. coding
How do you expect to make a game without code?
>graphical fidelity
There's literally nothing wrong with visuals
if you want to play NES or PS2 games until you croak be my guest, but I would personally die prematurely

[Anonymous No.6869862]

Literature makes you look at the world in new ways and can genuinely effect how you live your life. Literature is challenging and gives you many lens through which to view and interact with the world.

Video games are too accessible, which is their true problem and why they are plebeian. Even the most complex of video game can be understood and mastered by the average 14 year old. They do not stimulate you intellectually, they are just junk food for the mind.

This is why in the majority of social circles being a heavy reader will garner praise while being a heavy gamer is looked down upon because it reflects a degree of childishness and unwillingness to challenge ones own intellect. This of course, explains why everyone on /v/ is a kissless virgin and vidya corresponds to being a NEET so much. People are wrapped up in their own stagnant bubble which prevents them from bettering themselves.

[Anonymous No.6869881]

>>6869862
>implying an inert object can challenge you
so hard moving your eyes across the page

[Anonymous No.6869887]

games can be a form of art just like literature can

no art is better than any other form of art

anyone who wants to argue what they like is better/more important than what someone else likes most likely has a learning disability

[Anonymous No.6869890]

>>6869862
>>6869862
you obviously have only seen shit sold on xbox. if you think thats all games are you only scratching the surface of the art form

[Anonymous No.6869912]

>>6869881
>what is finnegans wake

[Anonymous No.6869921]

>>6869881
if this was a serious attempt at argument it just proves my point about how absolutely shit gamers are

>>6869890
I have played a ton of games in my time, Fallout series, Bioshock, Portal etc.. what games have the sort of depth that can live up to the standards I set in my first post?

[Anonymous No.6869926]

>>6868840
still more /fit

[Anonymous No.6869929]

>>6869921
>Fallout series, Bioshock, Portal etc..
Literally kill yourself, subhuman pleb

[Anonymous No.6869931]

>>6869929
b-but Fallout is fun...

[Anonymous No.6869934]

>>6869921
>Fallout series, Bioshock, Portal etc
lol no wonder you think games can be mastered by 14 year olds. get off your xbox and play some real games

[Anonymous No.6869948]

>>6869887
>no art is better than any other art

1. video games are not art
2. bullshit, the highest forms of art bring forth an aesthetic experience in the viewer, video games are almost entirely unable to do that. Beethoven is clearly better than a drunk guy playing wonderwall at a party

"To my knowledge, no one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers. That a game can aspire to artistic importance as a visual experience, I accept. But for most gamers, video games represent a loss of those precious hours we have available to make ourselves more cultured, civilized and empathetic."

[Anonymous No.6869949]

>>6869921
you dont understand games if those are the first that come to mind when you think of games

[Anonymous No.6869958]

>>6869934
>>6869929

name a few games with real artistic merit then

[Anonymous No.6869960]

>>6869948
>aesthetic experience
Next stop: Buzzword Central.

[Anonymous No.6869967]

>>6869948
I disagree

"Art reaches its greatest peak when devoid of self-conciousness. Freedom discovers man the moment he loses concern over what impression he is making or about to make.”

I feel art should be more about expression, as the quote above illustrates.

Just because Mozart sounds better, is more complex, and more enjoyable doesn't mean he is a better artist. Just a more skilled musician.

[Anonymous No.6869984]

>>6869862
>Even the most complex of video game can be understood and mastered by the average 14 year old.

Nigga never played Dorf Fort

[Anonymous No.6869990]

>>6869958
not the dude you are replying to but

http://barch.itch.io/deios

not even anything all that special just had it in the next tab, but it certainly holds "artistic merit"

im sure if someone really wanted to make list of games that hold artistic merit they could. Look around at free games people release online. About 80 percent are shit, but the other 20 could easily be considered art. Filled with expression, and void of capitalistic desires or fame

[Anonymous No.6870001]

>>6869579
What did you think about the Stanley Parable

[Anonymous No.6870007]

>>6869846
Vis-a-vis the 'technical aspects,' think about the ingravescence of graphical quality of televisions and 'blockbuster' films, eg. 4080p, IMAX, etc.

[Anonymous No.6870008]

>>6869967
expression is a good from the point of view of the producer of the art, not its consumer

the highest forms of art play on social conventions with regards to beauty. these conventions may be a product of culture or an offshoot of base human psychology, but they exist. great art doesn't have to follow these conventions but must interact with them in a meaningful way.

art produced for the masses and commercial profit (example video games) tend to interact with these conventions in a more traditional and less complex way. with a more sophisticated audience, they can understand and appreciate more complex and meaningful relationships between art and the social conventions by which it is commonly judged.

[Anonymous No.6870009]

What about video games that contain books?

[Anonymous No.6870014]

>>6869958
Killer 7
NieR
Drakengard
Soul Hackers
Dodonpachi

[Anonymous No.6870017]

>>6869958
http://miegakure.com/ ???

[Anonymous No.6870033]

>>6870014
this image apparently comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus:_Ky%C5%8Dfu_no_Bio_Monster

[Anonymous No.6870035]

>>6868535
Video games are for autistic people who have no understanding of the real world. Who are to afraid to partake in any real world interaction. So they dive into fantasy worlds to escape their own miserable lives. Social skills and intelligence are filed down to a dull point in which they can still fuction enough to ask their mother for dinner, but not enough to hold a conversation that isnt about video games for more than a minute. They develop themselves around their addiction (fans) where they wear clothing and sport all kinds of memorabilia of whatever game they like. They become so obsessed they find it hard to do anything else that doesnt meet their 5 second attention span (adhb & add).

Books however create a greater problem solving ability. Expand intelligence to a great extent. It also does not create childish fandoms nor do readers revolve their identity around it. Readers also have a better ability to create and appreciate art,many become writers and various other artists. But at the same time become philosophers.

Video game retards will display autistic behavior and strong levels of cognitive dissonance wjen confronted. Because logically its true, but they will still deny it because whats easier: Saying you're an addicted little sperg and you've wasted countless years in front of a screen, wasting time and money on a fantasy or that you're perfectly normal and not a complete retard?

[Anonymous No.6870038]

>>6869990
>Look around at free games people release online
seconded
really the only games that I consider to be art

[Anonymous No.6870047]

>>6870007
What's your point? And film doesn't gain that much from technological advances, just compare the differences between a silent movie and a modern film and between a NES game and something modern for graphics whores, and games are still nowhere near what they need to be. Only problem is the soaring production costs

[Anonymous No.6870060]

>>6870035
literally /lit/

[Anonymous No.6870062]

>>6870035
Anon, I think you are the Autismo personified.

[Anonymous No.6870064]

>>6870033
>"Although the game implies some danger, it does not seem to be possible to lose the game."

Interesting.

[Anonymous No.6870079]

>>6869990
>>6870014
>>6870017

i have not played nor heard of these games so I will refrain from judgement on their artistic merit

however, my main point still stands. There are probably fringe games that contain artistic merit. However, the vast majority of games are absolute garbage in this regard. Even the most pleb-tier John Green book or Harry Potter has more depth than 95% of all games ever released. I would also suspect the vast majority of gamers have never even played the games mentioned here.

[Anonymous No.6870085]

>>6870060
>>6870062

the vast majority of educated and socially successful people in the real world would agree with the opinion of the post you are reacting to, it isn't a special breed of lit autism

[Anonymous No.6870088]

>>6870047
>games are still nowhere near what they need to be
and where would that be, exactly?
My point was that it was mostly (>only problem is the soaring production costs) some form of useless technological masturbation. I mean, not totally useless, but w/e

[Anonymous No.6870095]

>>6870088
>and where would that be, exactly?
The matrix, essentially.

[Anonymous No.6870096]

>>6870079
I agree. It makes me sad really... I wish games would be considered the art form they deserve to be, but when someone thinks of a game they dont think of one of the wierd fringe games like you mentioned, but instead of call of duty or some shit that cost 12 mil to make, rather than something personal created by a solo artist with budget

[Anonymous No.6870107]

>>6870085
half this board is about "the literary lifestyle"

[Anonymous No.6870142]

>>6870079
Have you played Shadow of the Colossus?

Or to a lesser extent Metal Gear Solid 2 (it could be consider the first auteur game, even then it obviously pales in comparison to many other mediums)?

[Anonymous No.6870163]

>>6870009
Too much time wasted running around stabbing things in-between reading.

[Anonymous No.6870183]

>>6870142
>Metal Gear Solid 2 (it could be consider the first auteur game
you dont know shit kid, you dont.

[Anonymous No.6870196]

>>6870009
>pick up "book"
>5 pages long
there is literally no excuse for this, especially in real world settings

[Anonymous No.6870230]

>>6870060
>>6870062
30 seconds apart = Samefag

Litterally autists having a fit. Are you upset because you wasted you're life on a pointless addiction? Dont be mad at me, be mad at yourself.

[Anonymous No.6870239]

>>6870230
>implying I play games
>implying I read books

[Anonymous No.6870243]

>>6868840
there are foot fetishists fapping to this right now

[Anonymous No.6870257]

>>6870183
Care to correct me?

[Anonymous No.6870277]

>>6870196
This. Get the fucking book off Gutenberg and stick it in the game - you can spare the bytes.

[Anonymous No.6870295]

>>6870009
They don't even let you read the books in New Vegas.

[Anonymous No.6870306]

>>6868535
All of that is bullshit retards say to feel better about being uneducated morons that do nothing but play games all day.

However,

>But say, my brothers, what can the child do that even the lion could not do? Why must the preying lion still become a child? The child is innocence and forgetting, a new beginning, a game, a self-propelled wheel, a first movement, a sacred "Yes." For the game of creation, my brothers, a sacred "Yes" is needed: the spirit now wills his own will, and he who had been lost to the world now conquers the world.

Game-playing is still a sign of the most mature form of the spirit. If you are completely against playing games, you are immature. Thus video games serve not only the pleasures of idiots, but the pleasures of the greatest people in society too.

[Anonymous No.6870324]

>>6870306
hello alex

[Anonymous No.6870350]

>>6869220
You know, I do think that time spent playing video games is time that could be better spent honing ones skills in their chosen profession, but a lot of the people I know who've been playing multiplayer games over the last 10 years are really accomplished people at top schools for engineering (aerospace and electrical). It's weird because they're all at different skill levels too. Two of my friends were challenger in LoL and one was GM in SC2 for a while.

[Anonymous No.6870365]

>>6868535
theoretically this could be true, but even the very best video games don't come close to a decent novel

[Anonymous No.6870367]

The main reason the vast majority of video games have no artistic merit is because of the production process. It takes teams of people years and millions of dollars to create a mainstream cutting edge video game. This capital can only be obtained by promise of commercial success, which means the game must be easily accessible and dumbed down. This is in contrast to the various obscure games mentioned in this thread that were developed by one or a few people primarily for the sake of hobby or expression. These types of games are the only appearance of real artistry in the medium. This is comparable to how nobody likes shitty cash grab books that don't proceed from a place of authenticity and how most of /lit/ looks down upon simple YA fiction. Once again capitalism poisons everything it touches.

[Anonymous No.6870377]

>>6870367
>Once again capitalism poisons everything it touches.
more precise to say that the masses are at fault yet again

[Anonymous No.6870378]

>>6870367
What's your opinion on Ocarina of Time?

[Anonymous No.6870386]

>>6870324
What's the point of replies like this?

[Anonymous No.6870387]

>>6868535
>>6868535
I'm not one for arguing whether video games or books are the 'better' form of art, it is a meaningless and relative claim if intended to deal in absolutes. What I can say is, if someone claims that they prefer video games as an artistic experience to literature, I won't hang out with them or put stock in their opinion

[Anonymous No.6870395]

>>6870386
i just noted the similarity of his opinion to alex kierkegaard aka the orgy of the will guy

[Anonymous No.6870400]

>>6870367
Who are you to say a team of people aren't authentic? Moreover, how retarded can you be to not realize what the point of roles such as directors and head designers are in a production team?

[Anonymous No.6870405]

>>6870306

Nietzsche would find most gamers today repugnant for retreating from life and aesthetic experience to hide behind a screen. Hell, the "last man" of Nietzsche is a perfect description of most gamers. Video games are not an act of creation or expression of will to power, they are decadent retreats from the world for the most part.

[Anonymous No.6870412]

>>6868535
why can't people accept video games for what they are? why are they so insecure of their hobby that they seek to 'legitimize' it and make it an art? it's the same with people trying to rebrand comic books as graphic novels.

[Anonymous No.6870413]

>>6870405
Nietzsche found most of the aristocracy repugnant even in his own age for similar reasons. It's like you think you're saying something meaningful here. He knew to separate all of the posers from the real masters.

[Anonymous No.6870416]

Personally I stopped playing video games years ago but I think it's a tad amusing just how self-righteous other fellow /lit/ anon are being in decrying them ITT.

You can't act like you're some paragon of maturity when you still lurk fucking 4chan.

[Anonymous No.6870426]

>>6870405
>All of that is bullshit retards say to feel better about being uneducated morons that do nothing but play games all day.
>Thus video games serve not only the pleasures of idiots
please never post again with your level of reading comprehension
it's embarrassing to read

[Anonymous No.6870429]

>>6870378
I enjoyed it when I was 13, I do not find it to have any artistic significance.

>>6870400
It's not even about a team, its about how the incentives of capitalism place constraints upon what is possible for most video games. Directors may try to impose their artistic vision but capital usually speaks loudest.

[Anonymous No.6870430]

>>6870095
oh VR, yeah, it's coming along, mate

[Anonymous No.6870435]

>>6870416
It isn't like I browse /b/ or /r9k/, /lit/ is the best place to actually discuss literature and philosophy online sadly.

[Anonymous No.6870438]

>>6870230
>30 seconds apart = samefag
???

[Anonymous No.6870445]

>>6870429
>Directors may try to impose their artistic vision but capital usually speaks loudest.
And what's your alternative? Communism? lol

[Anonymous No.6870456]

>>6870395
oh I thought you were making a Clockwork Orange joke

[Anonymous No.6870457]

>>6870429
>its about how the incentives of capitalism place constraints upon what is possible for most video games
I don't see how this really matters at all. As far as games go there are still some that soar WAY over the others in terms of being extremely well made. Their artistic merit can still be evaluated and compared to the merit of other things as well. So what difference does it make at all?

[Anonymous No.6870470]

>>6870438
It takes 30 seconds to be able to do another captcha, and therefore post. This board is far to slow, and the replies were far too simaler to be from different people.

[Anonymous No.6870472]

>>6870470
>simaler

[Anonymous No.6870474]

>>6869684
How are they devolving?

>>6869846
I didn't say nor even remotely imply that you can make a game without coding or that there is a problem with visuals. Because that would be retarded.

I said "primarily focused on the technical aspects." In other words, too much emphasis on, say, pushing the graphical technology or staying on the cutting-edge instead of developing a style. This does not mean never improving graphical fidelity because, again, that would be retarded. Compare San Andreas to Katamari Damacy, or even Crash Bandicoot to Driver. A game that focuses on style will most likely be visually preserved throughout time, and even enhanced through later filters (throw some nice anti-aliasing on a PS1 game and be amazed), whereas a game that did not, and instead focused on fidelity, will in the future look like garbage. An exception would be something like Crysis, which still looks great, but that's because Crysis was WAY ahead of its time. I can't imagine it standing the test of time forever, though.

I'll add that pushing the graphical envelope is, perhaps, a necessary evil until graphical improvement hits diminishing returns.

[Anonymous No.6870476]

>>6870470
isn't the post limit at 60 seconds

[Anonymous No.6870479]

>>6870445
Why do I need to present an alternative to make video games non-shitty? Not like I think video game quality is the factor that decides whether or not we should be anti-capitalist. Regardless, I explained in my original post that small-scale games not made explicitly with a profit motive are good. It is analogous to the way the internet thrived as a hobby space untainted by capital in its early days, which allowed true creativity and boundary pushing to happen.

>>6870457
The entire point of many in this thread is that the artistic merits of 99% of games do not stack up to even a below average novel.

[Anonymous No.6870490]

>>6870479
>The entire point of many in this thread is that the artistic merits of 99% of games do not stack up to even a below average novel.
Many in this thread are irredeemably retarded then. That doesn't really answer the post though...

[Anonymous No.6870498]

This analysis defines the "artistic" quality of computer games, which is the interaction of the player within the boundaries of the computer game

http://www.listology.com/story/critical-history-videogames

[Anonymous No.6870504]

>>6870490
>Many in this thread are irredeemably retarded then.
welcome to 4chan
this place only has any value as a way to amuse yourself before dying

[Anonymous No.6870506]

>>6869958
>dodonpachi

based game
great sci fi storyline also

[Anonymous No.6870508]

>>6870472
My baded

>>6870476
Either 30 or 60 seconds.

[Anonymous No.6870509]

>>6868535

All video games are, are dumbed down versions of D&D table style games to the point where social interaction, calculation, plot, characters and everything else is just cake level mind numbing stuff

[Anonymous No.6870512]

>>6870490

your points
>some games are better than others
>you can compare the artistic merits of games to other things

neither of which a rational person would dispute. it is just a debate about the preponderant quality of things in one medium vs another.

[Anonymous No.6870514]

>>6870508
I've gotten 60 seconds for months bud
you must be a crossposter

[Anonymous No.6870517]

>>6870506

I don't understand how anyone can play these things.

[Anonymous No.6870525]

>>6870412
Because they have the erroneous idea of art being the only subject worthy of high value.

[Anonymous No.6870529]

>>6870517
The hitbox of your ship is always smaller than it looks

[Anonymous No.6870539]

>>6870517
play dodonpachi dai ou jou and ikaruga and you'll at least beat stage one

[Anonymous No.6870543]

>>6870517
R-type games are pretty addictive

[Anonymous No.6870544]

>>6870517
Elaborate. You mean you don't understand how anyone manages to get through them, or you don't understand how anyone can have fun with them?

[Anonymous No.6870551]

>>6870512
>it is just a debate about the preponderant quality of things
Well it is a discussion about fucking art, man. What the hell do you expect?

[Anonymous No.6870567]

>>6868535
>>"books are too linear, games encourage you to create your own story"
Kinda, but:
-This is only true for some games.
-Many games have little or poor plot regardless of linearity or lack thereof.
-Plot itself is not anything praiseworthy. It's not the main point of literature (or video games either), more of a means to an end. What the plot is used for is far more important, and video games fail to do anything remarkable with their stories.

>>"video games encourage problem solving and critical thinking"
Video games encourage a very narrow kind of thinking because they give you specific problems to solve with a limited range of solutions. The thinking applied to a game is very rarely useful outside of the game. Literature encourages broad thinking that is meant to be carried beyond the pages of the book.

>>"video games are more social"
True in the sense that some video games have modes that are specifically meant to be played socially, which generally can't be said of books. However you can read books together, either reading aloud in a group or in a book club. Both games and literature can be discussed with others, but the latter has a greater potential for meaningful conversation.

>>"video games make you much smarter"
This is just a vague, baseless claim. I would disagree with it for the reasons given above.

>>"literature is a dated form of media"
It's still relevant and useful, so I disagree.

[Anonymous No.6870702]

Poor video game developers. Forced to spend decades of their lives perfecting their art, mastering the required techniques and creating an enlightened subculture around this mastery and craft, and yet 4chan refuses to accept their artistry. How will they live with themselves?

[Anonymous No.6870720]

>>6868931
Not if you do it right. Literature is literally a conversation spanning thousands of years.

[Anonymous No.6870850]

>>6869604
>mise en scene
I FUCKING HATE THIS WORD. IT'S LITERALLY JUST FRENCH "WHAT'S ON SCREEN" SO JUST SAY THAT INSTEAD OF BEING A PRETENTIOUS COCKSUCKER.

[Anonymous No.6870862]

>>6870850
doubleplusgood comment, anon

[Anonymous No.6870869]

>>6870702
it makes me sad :c
Its not only 4chan the entire world

[Anonymous No.6870871]

>>6870720
No. It's masturbation and analizying each others cumstains after the fact. In multiplayer gaming we're talking experiencing things simultaneously and encountering alternate narratives. That said, gaming is still a garbage artform compared to literature.

[Anonymous No.6870943]

>>6870871
>That said, gaming is still a garbage artform compared to literature.
Part of the reason is that gaming as currently designed is meant to be disposable. Each version to be superceded by the next iteration.

[Anonymous No.6870959]

>>6868669
>The sentiments literature expresses today are devoid of authenticity and are based on mere convention. Expression and representation as values are no longer self-evident in our post-industrial society. The novelist has been doomed to a reflection on the linguistic medium. Representation and expression in literature are simply anachronistic. All that's left is the affirmation of the senselessness of language.
Can you say that in layman's terms, please? I'm sorry for being to pleb to read, but I really wanna understand.

[Anonymous No.6870971]

>>6868535
>X vs. Y media

Fuck off with this shit.

[Anonymous No.6870976]

>>"books are too linear, games encourage you to create your own story"
what games does this? maybe if you play some simulator like Sim City or Age of Empires and imagine what's going on in their lives, besides that games have a logical way of winning and you have to find that.

>>"video games encourage problem solving and critical thinking"
Books do this to but related to real life. It's pretty hard to implement critical thinking learned from a videogame or board game into your life. You end up with a cheap version of The Art of War in Economics or something like that.

>>"video games are more social"
They promote a very specific type of interaction. Playing CoD or LoL with a chinese guy very rarely will end up in you learning about their culture or life.

>>"video games make you much smarter"
this isn't even a correct sentence

>>"literature is a dated form of media"
dated isn't bad, and games are much more dated in the first place.

[Anonymous No.6871030]

I like vidya and literature cause they're both mediums you actively engage with. I prefer games in abstract form though. I'd rather vidya give us the next chess than the next Moby Dick.