[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 115 KB, 643x913, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6824473 No.6824473 [Reply] [Original]

Are there ANY good arguments against Mussolini? I just started reading his works and it's incredible.

>> No.6824482
File: 127 KB, 800x568, Mussolini_e_Petacci_a_Piazzale_Loreto,_1945.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6824482

His death and failure are the only argument you need.

What use are ideas without the will or the power to achieve them?

The only succesfull Fascist was Franco, and even his was only a temporary victory: betrayed by the man he groomed as his successor.

>> No.6824490

>>6824482
>being killed by a bunch of crazy communists is your fault

>> No.6824492

>>6824482
>successful fascist
Franco stopped being a fascist by the end of the 40's seing how all the fascist regimes ended.

>> No.6824494

>>6824482
Salazar was better.

Even his critics admire him.

>> No.6824511

>>6824490
Not being clever enough to not be killed by Communists is his own fault, yes.

If he were destined to win, he would have anticipated them.

He would have won his campaigns with the Axis.

In short, if he was worth shit he wouldn't have lost.

Success is the only true metric of worth.

>> No.6824514

>>6824494
Thanks, will look 'im up.

>> No.6824533

Not a single actual argument against Mussolini's ideas so far.

This place is scarily anti-intellectual.

>> No.6824543

>>6824473
I've heard some claim that he's intellectually incoherant and just takes and mish mashes things from ideologies that sound good. IDK though, never read him.

>> No.6824544

>>6824533
What need have we to battle dead men?

The job is already done for us.

Mussolini himself is dead, and ideas are worthless in our day and age, because their value has been divorced from their application, like specimens in glass jars.

The Anti-intellectualism is a given though, nobody here is particularly bright, or else they wouldn't be browsing /lit/.

No self-exception either.

>> No.6824729

>>6824473
Mussolini did nothing wrong!

>> No.6824747

>>6824533
People would have to have read a defunct and failed fascist to have an argument against him

The only argument we need is Italy under Mussolini and WW2

>> No.6824753

Here's an argument, things in theory don't always work as well in real life, like communism. Does that uh suit your need for an argument op? Like everyone else said he was a failed dictator and jesus did italy fail in ww2 so horribly bad.

>> No.6824885
File: 12 KB, 296x296, lemming.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6824885

>>6824511
>destined

>> No.6824889

>>6824473
persons are not statements, you can't have an argument against a person

>> No.6824897

>>6824473
Might is right.

He didn't might so good.

>> No.6824905

>Are there ANY good arguments against Mussolini?

Probably the ebin shithole Italy was under his rule

>> No.6824914

Read Marx.

>> No.6824928

>>6824533
he believed in a lot of spooks under his system like property

>> No.6824935

>>6824533
They don't work.

>> No.6824958

>>6824511 At best, this is just a critique of his execution. It says nothing of the ideas.

>> No.6824968

I don't think Mussolini actually wrote anything himself, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure he had his books ghostwritten and published under his name. But regardless, the man would leave on his light to make out he worked into the early hours when he went to bed at ten o'clock. His wife cheated on him. His economic approach made his population worse off (in both living standards and real wages) and he made women strong socially when he wanted to subjugate them by stopping them working, which allowed them to go on culturally enriching activities and pursue other hobbies at the expense of the taxpayer - and even the birthrate dropped when he wanted to increase it. He was an oppourtunistic fool who had a Socialist manifesto and then a far-right manifesto in the space of two years. He virtually allowed his war to be lost because he preferred propaganda to the truth, and you only need to know that his generals rejected building aircraft carriers because they thought bombers couldn't bomb at sea.

The fact is there can't be an argument against Mussolini because there's no argument to be had. He wasn't coherent ideologically and just wanted power. He didn't care for anything else.

>> No.6825001

>>6824753

>things in theory doesn't work in real life

>except my theory on neoliberal economics amirite? but that isn't theory it's reality because nature works like that :^)

>> No.6825010

>>6824928

...property isn't a spook. Considering others' property sacred is a spook.

>> No.6825032

>>6824482
I'd say he backed the wrong horse. His affiliation with Hitler, and the influence on Italian politics that came with such an affiliation, ultimately led to his demise.

>> No.6825034

>>6824533
The trains did not actually run on time.

>> No.6825042

>>6824958
Execution is the physical manifestation of an idea, and the only proof of it's validity possible.

If the idea's very originator, a man who had the power of an entire state at his fingertips, tried and failed to implement it, then it was categorically not the correct course of action to take.

>> No.6825045

A fuckton of corruption is not an argument?

>> No.6825049

I don't know what you nigs are talking about, Italy held up pretty good. And it's strange that brining up 'fascism lost' as an argument works but say the same thing about communism and people get stones in their ass.

>> No.6825073

>>6824544
>what need have we to battle dead men?
well, I get that mussolini wasn't exactly a philosopher per se of any sort truly but we do the same with those buggers all the time, don't we. sorta.

>> No.6825080

>>6825049
Read anything on Italy that is objective and it will tell you that it really did not hold up. It couldn't even invade Greece despite having Albania as a protectorate since 1928. Both fascism (in Mussolini's form) and Communism (in all forms) weren't good. Spain wasn't till the Miracle, and even that was run by technocrats. Nazism worked to some extent, although it's economy was built on war and public sector work.

>> No.6825131

>>6824482
>Jesus failing to bring in the eschatology proves he was wrong

>Stirner not overcoming an insect bite as a spook proves he was wrong

>Greeks and enlightenment philosophers, who never did anything but come up with ideas and left it to others to implement them were all wrong

>> No.6825176

>>6825080
To be fair, Italy's incompetent army wasn't really Mussolini's fault. Many European armies were pretty fucking incompetent at that time, for a plethora of reasons.

Just like Hitler can't be given full creds for building the German army, Mussolini can't be given full blame for Italy's shitty army.

>> No.6825182

>>6825131
Dying from an insect bite is perfectly in accordance with Stirner's thought.

>> No.6825188

>>6825080
I recall Italy not being one of the more shittier nations and having a moderate standard of living for the time.

>> No.6825202

>>6825080
Nazism worked to some extent also because Germans. Italy has been an incompetent corrupt shit heap for quite some time.

>> No.6825225

>>6824968
>he slacked
Not a valid criticism.
>he was a cuck
Not a valid criticism.
>he lost the war because he spread propaganda saying he is winning
Thats what you do when losing a war. Everybody does it.
>he failed to do what he wanted
Valid criticism, although its hard to make things work when you are losing a world war.
Still I agree with that part of your post, he fucked things up. Now the debate should be about whether his theory was flawed or his execution bad.

>> No.6825246

>>6825225
Facism's a good system. Musso's just went retard. What he should've done was remain neutral, possibly not fuck up it's perception forever.

>> No.6825253

I don't see how failure in the big context of pre WW2 Europe disproves him.

Italy didn't stand a chance as it was before entering the war.
Mussolini knew this, and other axis members knew it too. It was established, I think, that Italy would have been ready for a full scale conflict not before 1945. England and Germany were extremely more industrialized and with cutting edge military technology, while Italy was still dealing with old ass WW1 crap.

When WW2 begun, Mussolini entered the conflict because he thought the war would be over quickly. This was not an easy prediction to make. He was deeply mistaken and he paid the consequences of such a choice.

>> No.6825257

>>6825246
>Facism's a good system.
Provide examples of it in action and comparison to other systems facing similar challenges in similar circumstances and doing worse.

>> No.6825266

>>6825253
>When WW2 begun, Mussolini entered the conflict because he thought the war would be over quickly.

Citation needed.
Everybody, Mussolini and Hitler included, were cited to have been surprised at how fast France folded.
People expected a longer and harder grind on that front.

>> No.6825286

>>6825257
Germany and Italy during the depression. Portugal.

>> No.6825291

>>6825266
Citing Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Italy_during_World_War_II#Outbreak_of_the_Second_World_War

>Mussolini was well aware of the military and material deficiencies but thought the war would be over soon and did not expect to do much fighting.

I'm trusting the sources provided.

>> No.6825294

>>6825286
Those are three different fascist governments facing different problems in different circumstances.

I dont see any fair comparisons showing us how fascism solved some problem better than other systems in comparable circumstances.

>> No.6825296

>Communism is bad because then we can't believe that magic exists
>Good argument

>> No.6825304

>>6825291
That exact statement has no sources provided.

Regardless, it also doesnt state that Mussolini expected the fighting to be over quickly, just that he didnt expect Italy would have to fight much.
It does allow for the WWI scenario of France and Germany exchanging blows for years, which is what I meant.

>> No.6825312

>>6825296
Communism is bad because it cant function unless all of the world adopts it, and all of the world cant be made to adopt it.

>> No.6825316

>>6825304
Well, anyway, he was aware of the deficiency of the Italian military. I don't think he was stupid enough to think he could rival the British navy even in the Med sea.

>> No.6825321

>>6825316
He did think he can rival the Greek one though.

>> No.6825322

>>6824482
South Korea under Park was a successful fascist regime

>> No.6825323

>>6825296
nevermind i just realized that this may not have actually been his idea as it was ghostwritten by somebody else

>> No.6825324

>>6825312
Communism does not "function", you are a functionally illiterate, ignorant fuck

>> No.6825328

>>6824511
He was largely defeated by the British and United States, the commits only got him at the end, they didn't do significant damage to fascist Italy

>> No.6825329

>>6825324
Petty insults make for a weak argument.

>> No.6825336

>>6825323
>nevermind i just realized that this may not have actually been his idea as it was ghostwritten by somebody else
That's probably wrong, since his writing are on the level of Hitler and Lenin. It ain't hard to write like that.

>> No.6825337

>>6825045
More so than what system?

>> No.6825346

>>6825080
Actually most depression era countries admired Fascist Italy and Mussolini

Fascist Italy bounced out of the Great Depression stronger than most capitalist and communist nations

>> No.6825353

>>6825257
South Korea vs North Korea

Chile under Pinochet vs Venezuela

>> No.6825360

>>6825294
The depression m8. Europe was shit while Italy was decent and Germany was great.

>> No.6825363

>>6824473
reminder that the most anti-intellectual ideology is in fact not literature and should be on /pol/

>> No.6825366

>>6825353

>Chile under Pinochet

just kill yourself already, you only look at numbers and select the higher ones without looking at context

>> No.6825371

>>6825363
Pretty sure this isn't a thread about commushits.

>> No.6825375

>>6825366
>without context

Ok in context Venezuela has the benefit of billions added to its economy from oil trade and Pinochet still maintained a higher standard of living.

>kill yourself

No need to get emotional over historical facts champ.

>> No.6825380

>>6825371
communists actually wrote shitloads of theory

>> No.6825387

>>6825380
And it turns out none of it's any good.

>> No.6825391

>>6825387
Must be why it was fascists who sent people into space to look for God.

>> No.6825398

>>6825375

I have been in Chile and Peru and chile has a worse standard of living despite having higher IDH and PIB

They work for more hours, they have less health care, work laws are mostly unchecked in the population, most jobs pay much less than other countries with similar PIB.

The only benefit is that recreational technology is cheap so you can buy the last TV while living under shitty conditions, but technology for a personal industry and enterprises is expensive as fuck.

>> No.6825402

>>6825391
Must be why the commucucks only got to space by pillaging German technology and scientists

>> No.6825408

>>6825391
I never said anything about supporting fascist, bruh.
But at least they sort of worked.

>> No.6825410

>>6825402

Stop getting your education from history channel and fox news

>> No.6825414

>>6825402
I love this argument. Nukes? Stolen from Germany. Space ships? Stolen from Germany. Computers? Stolen from Germany.
Everything ever made was stolen from Germany, including mustard, fire, gloves, personal freedom and the transparent dildo. All German inventions.

>> No.6825417

>>6825408
>implying the USSR didn't work better than fascist Italy

>> No.6825422

If he had retired after WWI, he would be considered a national icon. Now he is just a national shame.

He was actually a decent president for his early decades, he just gets old and out of touch, and desires too much to emulate Herr Hitler.

>> No.6825423

I should stop coming to this shitty board.

>> No.6825428

>>6825422
>desires too much to emulate Herr Hitler

Always thought its the opposite.

>> No.6825434
File: 9 KB, 250x250, laughing jew.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>6825423
>waaaah people told me im wrong waaaah

>> No.6825438

>>6825428
Hitler mired Ataturk the most.

>> No.6825442

>>6825176
Granted, his generals were absolute idiots. But the fact is he prioritised propaganda over warfare - I point to the fact he had more bombers than fighters by miles. It was something like 3:1, it was insane. He even sent them to Belgium because he wanted to bomb London, only to discover his bombers didn't have the range, and allowed for Malta to be a relatively unintruded (in comparison to other locations) outpost as a result. And plus, the things he conquered where terrible, and despite this, in the case of Ethiopia, it was only conquered along the main roads and the cities. Even Libya was never really under consolidated Italian control. However, Italians as fighters were quite tough, I'm sure there is a quote by a German general which goes along the lines of German weaponry, Italian soldiers would be good, but I forget the quote.

>>6825188
Then you recall wrongly. Italy was one of the worse nations in Europe, and southern Italy was one of the poorest regions, if not the poorest. But Mussolini did wipe out the mafia I suppose.

>>6825202
Always was, always will be.

>>6825225
First two points I take, that was just demonstrating Mussolini to be not what he cracks up to be. However, you mistake my point for something else - he came to believe his own propaganda, he didn't just churn it out, he believed his delusions. However, granted, it is the same with most leaders. To your last point, his execution was terrible even before the war. He was incoherent, he had no real plan, and often they contradicted - for example, overvaluing the lira whilst trying to become self sufficient. It really made no sense at all. He didn't exactly have any theory, unless you mean things like the corporate state (facade), totalitarianism (the King ousted him and the Church retained heaps of influence), and conservative values (I suppose he was successful in halting the tide). But really, Mussolini was terrible in execution and confusing in theory.

>> No.6825446

>>6825417
USSR was an attempt at communism that didn't really turn out communist.

>> No.6825454

>>6825428
Was at first. Then Hitler realised Mussolini was virtually nothing more than cannon fodder at best and at worse a distraction that may have made Hitler lose the war.

>> No.6825455

>>6825410
Lol

>you watch le Fox News

You sound like a typical American liberal, even if you disagree with my points I expected a more intelligent level of discourse here

>>6825414
No credit for nukes goes to the U.S.

And for all your shitposting the V2 could reach space, all the commucucks had to do was add radiation shielding, oxygen, and a few navigation systems.

NASA was jumpstarted by German tech as well and many former Nazi scientists, but at least they advanced on the tech enough to reach the moon.

But like most commucucks, historical fact scares you so you'll resort to shitposting.

>> No.6825469

>>6825455
>the V2 could reach space
>historical fact

Reconsider your post.

>> No.6825476

>>6825446
Still, the attempt worked better than Benito's attempt.

>> No.6825490
File: 55 KB, 640x315, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>6825469
This isn't really a point you can debate...

>> No.6825498

>>6825476
Not really since it was actually implanted in practice. War was something he might be able to handle had he the resources and scope of the USSR.

>> No.6825522

>>6825498
*implemented

>> No.6825739

Other than his mugging of the camera, no.

>> No.6825799

>>6825498
It's easily to 'implant' something in practice if you just make shit up as you go along.

>> No.6825908

Fascism is a super broad definition, remember that. It's not synonimous with racial supremacism or national socialism. Salazar was a corporatist that relied on white burden ideology and portuguese identity transcending race to justify the neo-colonial system (the colonies were renamed provinces, for instance).

>> No.6825921

>>6824511
How long do you have to be in power to be a success?

>> No.6825941
File: 319 KB, 803x688, 1424913890878.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>loved spooks
>hated freedom
>was Italian