/lit/ - Literature

[Thomas No.6784146]

Can New Sincerity be a boon to Christianity?

[Anonymous No.6784158]

>I christpost on a Philippenese fingerpuppet gathering

[Anonymous No.6784165]

Isn't New Sincerity based solely on 'muh feels'?

Christians have a REASON for their sincerity and optimism.

[Thomas No.6784167]

Also, somewhat unrelated: was the Church's antagonist attitude toward socialism within its ranks mostly related to contemporary communist regimes being extremely anti-religion? Seems like the end of the Cold War really changes things in this regard.

[Thomas No.6784171]

>>6784165
New sincerity is essentially a reaction against edginess. It could entail a movement toward Christianity.

[Anonymous No.6784178]

>>6784167
It had to do with how in way Russia the monarchs were murdered. The Church also wasn't fond of Jews until Vatican II.

[Anonymous No.6784194]

>>6784167
>socialism will just get bigger

This is the way the world ends.

[Thomas No.6784232]

>>6784194
It's going to be a new kind of socialism though. A Godly socialism.

[Anonymous No.6784241]

>>6784232
Socialism is of the Devil though

[Thomas No.6784245]

>>6784241
As opposed to a system whose foundation is usury?

[Anonymous No.6784249]

>>6784167
Back russian cummunism was bad, but this fake capitalism is worst.
what has really changed is not the church message, but the global environment.

[Anonymous No.6784256]

>>6784245
both are of the Devil

[Anonymous No.6784268]

>>6784232
That's just worse!

[Anonymous No.6784273]

>>6784146
If New Sincerity is about honesty then it would have the opposite effect. Let's be real for a moment. If we're all honest with ourselves we know Christianity was a mere human invention, probably one of Roman Emperors, and that the God of Abraham doesn't exist. Only in a postmodern society, where everyone's wacky beliefs are respected, can Christianity continue to flourish despite all of the evidence against its being true.

[Anonymous No.6784284]

>>6784273
>
If New Sincerity is about honesty then it would have the opposite effect. Let's be real for a moment. If we're all honest with ourselves we know Christianity was a mere human invention, probably one of Roman Emperors, and that the God of Abraham doesn't exist. Only in a postmodern society, where everyone's wacky beliefs are respected, can Christianity continue to flourish despite all of the evidence against its being true.
They said in the past 2000 years

[Thomas No.6784285]

>>6784273
Let's be honest with ourselves: God is real. Christ died for your sins. He loves you. I love you. Together we can work toward a better world.

[Anonymous No.6784302]

>>6784245
the idea of Heaven on Earth is stupid to begin with

also, I have a right to have my property

[Anonymous No.6784367]

>>6784273
>Only in a postmodern society, where everyone's wacky beliefs are respected
fucking dropped, you don't understand post-modernism

[Thomas No.6784392]

>>6784302
>the idea of Heaven on Earth is stupid to begin with
This could be just as easily have been used as an argument against abolishing slavery or serfdom.

>also, I have a right to have my property
pic related

[Anonymous No.6784406]

>>6784392
>as an argument against abolishing slavery or serfdom.
slavery is the use of someone, so it is immoral
>pic related
that it is not absolute or conditional doesnt mean it isnt a right

none of those quotes represents socialism

[Anonymous No.6784452]

>>6784146
New Sincerity is believing one's naivety is beyond reproach, that feeling is equivalent to fact. So, yes, New Sincerity is highly compatible with Christianity. New Sincerity Christianity understands that the rug has been pulled under it by historical criticism, but it continues to hold false beliefs anyway. It's quite arguably the very state of Christianity now.

But what you want is Christian Socialism, as stated here >>6784232 which is either of the Utopian variety or the Scientific variety, as argued by Engels. Francis' "Socialism" is the former. He assumes that he can tell capitalists that pollution is bad, deforestation is wrong, and the extreme degree of poverty we have is immoral, perhaps even sinful. Francis assumes that if we all just get together and, no doubt, that if we all just became (Roman Catholic) Christians we could unite under an ideology that will guide us to peace and happiness.

His assumptions are unfounded. Capitalism is not a rational system: it does not feel, it does not care, it does not dream of tomorrows. He is correct to criticize Capitalism on this ground but if all the world was Catholic it would not remove Capitalism with mere criticism. Correct criticism must be followed by action. If Francis wanted a changed world, a world that is no longer on the cusp of absolute death, then he would command his many followers to sabotage the system: to remove their own wealth and the wealth of those around them; to take from the capitalist class the means of production and to hand them over to the people; to remove from society all landlords, bankers, executives, managers, presidents, senators, representatives, ministers, generals, officers, all occupants and stooges of the master class, and he would join them in this international action.

But he cannot, because the change that Francis wants is absolute revolution, and he and his church are part and parcel of what must necessarily be overturned. Christianity can survive this revolution, but it will be a Christianity made by Socialism, not a Socialism made by Christianity. And it will be a better form of Christianity because of it.

[Thomas No.6784513]

>>6784406
>slavery is the use of someone, so it is immoral
So is serfdom. So is the wage and credit system.

>that it is not absolute or conditional doesnt mean it isnt a right
In fact, the right to private property in Catholicism is quite different from it's normal conception, it means entitlement to private property.

>none of those quotes represents socialism
No, of course not, if socialism includes no one having private land or homes.

[Anonymous No.6784524]

>>6784513
then it isnt socialism

Socialism is essentially against religion

[Thomas No.6784526]

>>6784452
Conditions for global revolution aren't here, or else it probably already would have happened. For global revolution to even be a remote consideration, revolutionary spaces need to be created....unions used to the big one, but they have declined due to state standardization of them.

[Thomas No.6784532]

>>6784524
It's certainly not secular socialism, not. It's more like the sort John Milbank advocates, which seeks to strengthen family, community and church

[Anonymous No.6784537]

>>6784532
why should i listen to John Memedank anyway?

[Thomas No.6784546]

>>6784537
Because he has a lot of good points and he is extremely serious about the importance of theology in everything. Most leftist Christians basically seek to reconcile Christianity with secular theory, whereas Milbank is not interested at all in reconciling theology and secular thought.

[Anonymous No.6784572]

>>6784546
Oh, but im not a leftist, Im Orthodox

[Anonymous No.6784577]

>>6784526
This is true, but socialism has not disappeared. In fact, it has been building in spaces. Vietnam, China, Cuba and, yes, even the DPRK are remnants of the first wave but socialism is being built in Venezuela, Bolivia, India, the Donbass, Kurdistan, Turkey, the Phillipines, and it is a growing presence in the West thanks to these successes, access to critical information, and recognition that neoliberalism has failed. Not incidentally, the far right is also gaining ground in the West. As a non-Catholic Communist I would actually welcome Francis' full recognition of Communism as the necessary antidote to the world's ills and it would clearly be in his Church's best interest since the far-right is completely outside of what he claims to want, even on theology, whereas Communism advocates for real secularism, allowing religions from revival traditional religion to Catholicism to exist outside of socio-politics as private contradiction. The meeting with Raúl Castro should show this.

[Anonymous No.6784588]

>>6784572
i bet you get a chub saying that to yourself

[Anonymous No.6784593]

>>6784588
what's a chub?

[Anonymous No.6784610]

No. Nothing is. Religion is slowly withering away.

[Anonymous No.6784649]

>>6784610
said by the Pagans hundreds of years ago

[Anonymous No.6784790]

>>6784577
>allowing religions from revival traditional religion to Catholicism to exist outside of socio-politics as private contradiction

But this isn't what the Church wants at all. The Church is God's agent on Earth. It exists to win souls to Christ and adhere the world more completely to Christ's will in anticipation of his second coming. There's nothing private about that.

What the Church really wants, deep down (though it's not polite to say it these days) is a return to its position in the Middle Ages as final arbiter of moral judgment and determiner of both public and private behavior. The Church doesn't want to occupy a different sphere than the State, the Church wants to stand over the State's shoulder and slap its hand with a measuring stick when it gets out of line.

[Anonymous No.6784847]

they chill

[Anonymous No.6784927]

>>6784790
Absolutely agreed, which is exactly why the Church can never be the champion of world peace it claims to be and why it should never be trusted to attempt such a thing.

[Anonymous No.6784983]

maybe the community events stuff could improve because of new sincerity.

ive been trying to be sincere, and just enjoy the community and meeting at church. then someone has to go and pray, or during a discussion bring up how the internet only matters if it can bring people back to christ, like it is their new marketing plan, and my eyes just can't not roll and i just cant give a sincere response

[Thomas No.6784999]

>>6784572
So is Milbank. Unless you mean Eastern Orthodox. But I have a friend who is Orthodox and leftist.

[Thomas No.6785019]

>>6784790
The during the Middle Ages, the Church was, politically speaking, basically a pawn for which whichever secular power was in the area. It had very little autonomy or control over its parishes, priests were chosen by secular rulers, even the Pope was generally chosen by a secular ruler.

[Anonymous No.6785124]

>>6785019
The Church wielded immense power regardless of who appointed its leaders because of the common folks' faith in Christ and in the Sacraments. Because the Church controlled the Sacraments, it controlled the populace.

Not that this was a bad thing, of course.

[Anonymous No.6785132]

>>6784927
it's actually the only way the church could ever be a champion of world peace.

[Thomas No.6785169]

>>6785124
The Church wielded immense power in a non-political sphere. In the political sphere, it was hardly more than a tool that had to do what it was told.

[Anonymous No.6785198]

Marxism is not New Sincerity.

[Anonymous No.6785206]

>>6784146
I saw the Oscar Romero movie. Very cool story. Would recommend

[Anonymous No.6785210]

>>6784158

[Anonymous No.6785212]

>>6784649
RARE

[Anonymous No.6785216]

>>6784790
except the Catholic church isn't retarded, they know this kind of power in the modern world is basically impossible and so they're trying to be more of an influential force. There isn't an active Catholic movement for the Church to stand over any government.

[Anonymous No.6785248]

>>6785216
I would argue that the Church's true power is at this point fairly unknown. When was the last time it flexed its muscles, after all? And even in merely 'influencing' it can be immensely forceful in world affairs. Consider John Paul II's role in toppling the Soviet Union.

[Anonymous No.6785413]

>>6785248
>John Paul II's role in toppling the Soviet Union.
Being a stooge for capitalism. Boy that worked out well. Looks like Johnny Paul Jr. picked the wrong horse to back.

[Anonymous No.6785419]

>>6785413
>Being a stooge for capitalism. Boy that worked out well. Looks like Johnny Paul Jr. picked the wrong horse to back.
>believing communism/socialism or any ism is compatible with Catholicism
just look at what happened to Mexico

[Anonymous No.6785428]

>>6785413
>>6785413
>supporting the Soviet regime

[Anonymous No.6785437]

>>6785413
Communist go home.

[Anonymous No.6785440]

>>6785413
>implying Pope Francis isn't going to initiate a new age of global Marxist darkness

[Anonymous No.6785456]

>>6785440
>Marxist

More like feudal. The Middle Ages are coming back. I can't wait.

[Thomas No.6785546]

>>6785456
Why do people think feudalism was ever a Church preference?