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/lit/ - Literature

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6702572 No.6702572 [Reply] [Original]

Just watched Herzog's "Into the Abyss", and have been thinking about the death penalty. What are your thoughts on it? What are some good pieces of literature arguing either side of the debate?

>> No.6702577

Every argument against the death penalty can also be used against life imprisonment, or imprisonment generally.

>> No.6702580

Summa

>> No.6702584

>>6702577

It's better to imprison them.

>> No.6702586

Someone needs to mention it so I will: the description of the executions in The Idiot were top notch. It's towards the beginning of the book if you haven't read it. Dostoyevsky was almost executed so he knew his shit when he wrote that part.

>> No.6702587

>>6702584
Thanks for providing some justification for your statement.

>> No.6702589

>>6702587

Your welcome.

>> No.6702593

>>6702589
My welcome what?

>> No.6702597

>>6702589
>your

>> No.6702600

>>6702593
>>6702597

Sorry mistakes' like that or a diamond dozen

>> No.6702601

>>6702589
He didn't welcome you

>> No.6702605

>>6702587
It's cheaper to imprison them. There is no study that confirms the death penalty deters people from commiting crimes. Lethal injection is no longer a safe procedure because European pharmaceutical companies have turned off the tap to the appropriate drugs. You can not bring someone back to life if you find our that they were improperly convicted.

>> No.6702606

>>6702572
Life might be more torture. Because we want them to break down and admit guilt and wish to themselves that they hadn't.

But I don't have a very strong stance on this issue. I think mostly in America its a problem because so many blacks get locked up in jail and they literally din do nuffin.

Can you imagine 20-30 years in prison and getting released? Or facing the death penalty and still saying "I DIDNT FUCKING DO IT"

And tax money gets wasted in worse ways than keeping prisoners alive.

>> No.6702611

>>6702605

It's cheaper to not imprison them <\;^)

>> No.6702616

>>6702600
Why would you of done that sort of thing?

>> No.6702618

My stance on the issue is that people definitely deserve to die, but humans are not apt to make such determinations (unless it's in the interest of public safety or self defense)

>> No.6702621

>>6702572
>>6702577
it's better to rehabilitate them

but that's expensive, especially with so many prisoners, which is why it doesn't happen

it's also expensive to keep so many prisoners imprisoned for so long

it's not only a question of ethics, but practicality as well

>> No.6702623

>>6702611
Yes because of the very expensive appeals process.

>> No.6702626

>>6702605
According to whom? The only reason it would be is when the defendant is using a public defense attorney and there are multiple appeals, because then the government is paying for both the prosecution and the defense.

Also, one can simply dismiss your argument by stating that regardless of the price, death is a more appropriate punishment, and that price should not be relevant when pursuing justice. (Viz. cheaper doesn't mean better.)

As to the point about it not being a good deterrent, imprisonment also doesn't seem to be working as a deterrent to crime either, so why bother?

>> No.6702631

>>6702605
Helium "exit bags" like on the suiciding-Pepe illustration?

>> No.6702633

>But I don't have a very strong stance on this issue. I think mostly in America its a problem because so many blacks get locked up in jail and they literally din do nuffin.

Literally the solution to the "we might execute wrongly convicted people" is to only execute those where there is absolutely no doubt that they committed the crime.

>> No.6702636

>>6702605
See
>>6702633

>> No.6702643

>>6702621
Criminal thinking coupled with typically VERY LOW EDUCATION makes criminals almost always nonproductive members of society. See Samenow on the thinking of criminals... (Ps I work as screener in jail entrance.)

>> No.6702645

>>6702626
>According to whom?

The appeals process costs a lot of money.

>Price should not be relevant
It should be when there is no relevant justification for the death penalty.

And prisons do deter people from commiting crimes. The death penalty doesn't add to the deterrent.

>> No.6702650

>>6702621
Well, we could start by not keeping people in jail or prison for stupid, non-violence shit.

>> No.6702652

It's better to put them to work slaving away to improve this nations rail system

>> No.6702661

>>6702645
>And prisons do deter people from commiting crimes. The death penalty doesn't add to the deterrent.
>Citation needed.

The justification is that people who murder others for no legitimate reason have violated the social contract and deserve to die.

>> No.6702662
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6702662

>>6702631
>the suiciding-Pepe illustration

>> No.6702667
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6702667

>>6702662

>> No.6702668
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6702668

>>6702631
>Helium "exit bags" like on the suiciding-Pepe illustration?

>> No.6702669

>>6702645
It's great that prisons deter people from committing crimes, that way we keep using imprisonment and also execute those who are not adequately deterred from crime by the threat of imprisonment.

>> No.6702670

>>6702572
we as humans don't have a moral right to decide who lives or dies

>> No.6702676

I've thought about it a lot over the years, and lately I keep coming around to the thought that it's an extremely minor issue. On balance, in practical terms, I don't really think it's worth it, but I don't really care. It's not worth arguing about.

>> No.6702683

>>6702661
>Citation needed

"Our survey indicates that the vast majority of the world’s top criminologists believe that the empirical research has revealed the deterrence hypothesis for a myth"

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/files/DeterrenceStudy2009.pdf

>> No.6702689

>>6702661
>>6702683
Also,

>Violated the social contract and deserve to die

You violate the social contract when you rape someone, or burn down their house. Neither crime permits execution under the United States Constitution.

>> No.6702690
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6702690

>TFW in the future we will abolish the death penalty, then we'll abolish life imprisonment, then imprisonment.
>TFW murders and rapists will just be sent to rehabilitative daycares.
>TFW They'll be 'rehabilitated,' then released into society.
>TFW they'll just keep committing the same crimes after being released.
>TFW people will just say they need to be rehabilitated harder.
>Oh Tyrone, you so silly.

>> No.6702697

>>6702689
What's your point? Rape and arson are crimes which aren't unjustified homicide. Additionally, do all punishments also have to function as deterrents to be justified? Punishments also function as a form of repayment to society, they don't need to function solely as deterrents.

>> No.6702698

>>6702633
The only reason anyone should be convicted of any crime at all is if we have absolutely no doubt that they committed the crime.

>> No.6702700

>>6702593
>>6702597
>being this retarded on a columbian coke-swapping warehouse

>> No.6702712

>>6702697
The fuck repayment does society get when you kill someone? Dead's dead. WTC stayed bulldozer'd after they got Osama, although of course Osama had nothing to do with that to begin with so I suppose that might be it.

>> No.6702714

>>6702698
Well yes, but remember you tend to have a better defense team if you're not poor, and there's the shenanigans with plea deals and all that nonsense to expedite the process. The U.S. justice system is absolute trash.

>> No.6702717

>>6702697
Right. But life imprisonment is cheaper and a more adequate punishment.

>> No.6702720

>>6702712
Killing bin Laden didn't bring back any of the dead from 9/11, that's true, but still glad he's dead himself.

>> No.6702729

>>6702717
It's not adequate because they're still sitting there breathing, taking up space, and living out their lives while the people they killed are not. And in cases where the death penalty isn't appealed then it is cheaper.

Are you opposed to the death penalty just because it makes you squeamish to know that our government kills criminals?

>> No.6702734

The idea of punishment doesn't apply to some people. A lot of murderers are sociopaths. They simply don't care what you do to them. They have no hope of rehabilitation, either. They should be executed not as a punishment, or as a deterrence to others, but simply because they should no longer exist.

>> No.6702738

>>6702729
>It's not adequate because they're still sitting there breathing, taking up space, and living out their lives while the people they killed are not
So fucking what?
>cases where the death penalty isn't appealed it's cheaper
Oh, so I suppose we gotta make up new laws to prevent people from appealing the death penalty, right? That's the only fucking way for that argument of yours to mean something.

>> No.6702745

i think it's a waste, killing someone, why not just imprison criminals and force them to work? we could make them grow food for the rest of us in farms or something, but if they refuse to work, they starve and die, it's simple

it would also be cool to pay law-abiding citizens like $400 a month as a thank-you for being civilized.
did they get a speeding ticket? well, they only get $200 this month, etc

>> No.6702760
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6702760

>>6702745
>let's just give everybody but criminals positive incentive for living!

>> No.6702761

>>6702729
>Living out their lives

Living in max security prison isn't exactly following the pursuit of happiness.

>And in cases where the death penalty isn't appealed then it is cheaper

We have this fun thing called due process of law. It's not cheap.

>Are you opposed to the death penalty just because it makes you squeamish to know that our government kills criminals?

No. I don't think we have the adequate rational capacities to determine who is going to live and who is going to die.

>> No.6702764
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6702764

>>6702745
>why not just imprison criminals and force them to work?

That's already a thing, part of the reason that the prison archipelago is booming.

>> No.6702768

>>6702734
Sociopathy is not an actual thing, there's no rigorous way to test for sociopathy or prove that it even exists. When a psychologist declares someone a sociopath they basically make a somewhat informed guess based on a framework of thought which may or may not have something to do with the reality of the situation. Saying "this guy shouldn't be alive" on account of that is some ridiculous shit. It's basically your fucking opinion based on your goddamn feelings.

>> No.6702770

>>6702761
>We have this fun thing called due process of law. It's not cheap.
Yup. Proper punishment isn't cheap either.

>> No.6702776

>>6702761
Who cares if it's rational?

>>6702768
No, the guy shouldn't be alive because he's a murderer, not because he's a sociopath.

>> No.6702779

>>6702761
>Living in max security prison isn't exactly following the pursuit of happiness.

Well they apparently had no problem with committing a crime that sent them there. Wonderful deterrent.

>> No.6702782

>>6702745
then the farmers lose jobs to prisoners working at 2 cents an hour

like globalization only involving prisoners

>> No.6702788

>>6702782
>Lose jobs, have to resort to crime.
>Go to prison.
Bahahahaha.

>> No.6702790

>>6702745
What the fuck do you think goes on in U.S. prisons right now if not organized (slave) labour? Giving private players a way of making mad dough on the backs of psychologically unstable and financially non-existent people and expecting laws to be fair and just in the face of all that money and connections to be connected is just naive.

>> No.6702797

>>6702745
>>6702790
it's pretty disgusting tbqh http://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/privatized-prisons-a-human-marketplace

>> No.6702798

>>6702770
Why should death penalty be the appropriate punishment?

>>6702776
>Who cares if it's rational
>Who cares if our punishments are issued on a rational basis

>>6702779
>Wonderful deterrent

Let's do a quick counterfactual. How many more homicides do you think there'd be if we got rid of prisons all together?

>> No.6702803

>>6702745
> we could make them grow food for the rest of us in farms or something, but if they refuse to work, they starve and die, it's simple

Not under the 8th Amendment.

>> No.6702805

>>6702798
>Who cares if our punishments are issued on a rational basis
Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking.

>> No.6702806

>>6702572
>What are your thoughts on it?
Individual-State completely disgusting just as any form of detainment. If I ever get detained I will have my revenge and I will be no less entitled to do so than the state with its (usually hypocritical) appeal to a common good which in practice only serves to keep the swine safe himself and which is of no concern to me in this relationship.

Individual-People or me-you is a perfectly acceptable way of quenching thirst for revenge, a basic instinct. Just don't get overzealous here.

People-State or State-People of no concern to me, do what you must to reinforce stability but at least do it properly and nip niggers in the bud instead of shooting nigger pigeon-fruit-stuff.

>> No.6702815

>>6702805
Right, but if we don't give a fuck about making sense, why not give murderers a pony and a reach-around instead?

>> No.6702816

>>6702805
>No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

-14th Amendment

>Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

-8th Amendment

>> No.6702828

>>6702806
What the fuck are you even saying?

>> No.6702834

>>6702798
>Let's do a quick counterfactual. How many more homicides do you think there'd be if we got rid of prisons all together?

More. But less because prison is a deterrent than that it serves as a good containment center for the type of people who commit homicide, and removes them from society. Interestingly enough, capital punishment also removes them from society.

>> No.6702836

>>6702815
Justice is always to some degree arbitrary, and must always have an emotional component. The state must present itself as a force of nature, a wild beast.

>>6702816
I'm not American, nor do I care about the constitutional form of government.

>> No.6702841

>>6702836
>The state must present itself as a force of nature, a wild beast
Fucking what?

>> No.6702843

>>6702572

ITT: Americans who think there's a monetary value of human life. Savages.

>> No.6702857

>>6702841
The basis of government is a fear of violence. If a government is incapable of using violence against its citizenry, it has no real authority, and the people will be unruly, and not just in terms of governance. The state must be willing to devour any who present themselves as a threat. This fact is primal vengeance, and exists beneath any rationalization.

>> No.6702859

>>6702828
That I am detaching myself from the relation of state-people for any argument made towards it is of no concern to me in modern society, international affairs are free to deal with it and they will. And if worse comes to worst I will just join the Gestapo. I don't see what the big deal is.

>> No.6702868

>>6702857
Yet it's the people who teach the individual this terror, grass root propaganda.

>> No.6702869

>>6702857
What the fuck is "primal vengeance"?

>> No.6702874

>>6702869
Tug the tiger's tail, and the tiger bites your head off.

>> No.6702893

>>6702874
What the fuck is this, Machiavelli's Fables?

>> No.6702907

>>6702893
It's the fundamental truth of advanced human social organization.

>> No.6702910

>>6702907
Spooky

>> No.6703089

What is the difference between being group A being under one governance and group B under another? The governing and all the rules it imposes on the grounds of raison d'etat. I am not any more connected to group A than group B as an individual. But this is what's suggested, that the state is free to force its will upon the individual because of the immediate connection to the group as a citizen. Yes, that's literally all they can muster up, the other part is socioeconomic relationship with the state Yet any individual who condones the state to inflict penalties of any kind upon the group can only do so by reducing the group to the individual or at least an immediate group because of rationalized basic instincts, need for security, revenge, perceived fairness and so on. It's an act of self preservation and anything else requires extra explanation otherwise it's a leap of logic to jump from this to "This is a flaw in the group so it must be detained or removed" because this requires another, disconnected set of arguments. With no further arguments the "people" are nothing but a playing piece which don't even exist. Tell me how I am to be concerned emotionally or to feel connected with any such "people" that I am not in direct contact with? Maybe you will tell me that the hierarchy extends to my immediate group and then myself? Then why does my immediate group not extend upwards to the people if this is not to be a non human, non individual and therefore fake relationship? All _citizens_ get punished? Then the state is not in a better position than an egoist who decides to punish all states except for the obvious difference in firepower. Good news on the other hand is just disassociating oneself with the idea of the "people" will render futile any such attempt of reasoning with the state and hopefully will lead to the downfall of such a system. And if one was intelligent enough to not even buy into the (autistic) individual-state relationship of fascism or the retard version of individual-people aka communism and so on, basically any state except the most primitive. Given that humans evolve enough to reject modern system in favor of the primitive, we will end sooner or later in monarchy where the ruler is a completely replacable Agent Smith which won't matter because it will actually be totalitarianism as the back-end, but we will sure love the idea of the struggling workers uniting once more against the evil singular who will transform into good plural. Shame on the egoist who thinks only of himself!

>> No.6703101

>>6702621
>but that's expensive
Actually that's imposible, kid

>> No.6703221

>>6702572

Death penalty is ludicrous, and a staino on America.


Punishment in general is pointless.

>> No.6703229

>>6702600

kekue

>> No.6703237

>>6702606

Life imprisonment is a ludicrous sentence as well, on top of that the prisoner is brutalized.

Incarceration is one thing people choose to ignore because they think they'll never have to deal with it, but brutality is being done in the public's name.

America is not a socially inclined country to begin with and the population thinks people in jail are there due to free will just as much as they think the billionaires are rich due to free will.

>> No.6703247

>>6702645
>prisons do deter people from committing crimes.

Not true.

>> No.6703265

>>6702697

Why do you believe in punishment?

"You hurt me, now I get to hurt you"

Punishment is an archaic concept routed in biblical thinking.

Yet no one chooses to examine it, and would rather seek retribution.

>> No.6703273

>>6702734

Guess what? You're no better.