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/lit/ - Literature

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6676588 No.6676588 [Reply] [Original]

This is the greatest book that high schoolers will ever read.
I am a Hindu Brahmin, and found Siddhartha captivating, beautifully written, and incredibly realistic and accurate. Hermann Hesse understood the East like no other Western writer before or after him. But how?

>> No.6676600

>>6676588

Through the power of LITERATURE!!!! He read a lot of books.

>> No.6676601

>>6676588
It mumbo jumbo for "spiritual" white middle class trannies like you.

>> No.6676614

>>6676601
I'm literally an Indian citizen. I was born and raised a Hindu Brahmin, and learned Rig Veda suktas from a Guru. I grew up in the US, but that's it. So how am I a white middle class tranny? I literally belong to the same religion and caste as Siddhartha. And last I checked, my skin's still brown.

>> No.6676624

>>6676614
Siddhartha rejected religion and caste. Buddhism and Hinduism are incompatible.

>> No.6676634

>>6676624
He rejected Buddhism as well, if you remember. I'm not like Siddhartha. But I could relate to him more than the average reader.

>> No.6676636

>>6676614
>i grew up in the US
you are just a palette swamp of the white trash.

>> No.6676644

>>6676636
he wrote smugly, from the comfort of his parent's suburban Ohio home.

>> No.6676648

>>6676588

Hindaboo garbage.

>> No.6676652
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6676652

>>6676644
No, i wrote it smugly from a rundown house in mexico :^)

>> No.6676653

>>6676636
Are you even thinking straight? Did you read what you wrote?

>> No.6676658

>>6676634
>But I could relate to him more than the average reader.
how do you know? how do you relate to him? how do others relate to him?

>> No.6676661

>>6676634
He rejected Buddhism when he didn't understand it. Towards the end he understood himself in a way similar to what Buddha outlined, at which point he saw no reason to follow Buddha around to learn from him. I don't think he even realized his realization was similar to Buddha's, but in the end it was and a rejection of the Hindu religion and caste system. Thought I suppose "rejection" is the wrong word to use, there's no rejection involved, there's simply no adherence to what you can't understand about suffering through your own experiences.

>> No.6676665

>>6676658
Because he shares the same colour of skin.

(?)

>> No.6676668

>>6676588

Op who are some Indian authors you like?

>> No.6676678

>>6676665
And philosophy. I understand partial discontentment with the vedas and why he would seek enlightenment elsewhere (I'm personally content, though).
>>6676658
I can relate to him through caste and religion. I understand what drove him to seek enlightenment elsewhere. For other people it's a regular old bildungsroman.

>> No.6676688

>>6676668
Tagore and R. K. Narayan

>> No.6676695

>>6676661
He rejected Buddhism because he saw what it was becoming. The way that Govinda followed it was as dogmatic as Hinduism, while Siddhartha became a true Buddha. He found enlightenment in the self, not in teachings.

>> No.6676697

Is at least better written than steppenwolf?

>> No.6676698

>>6676688

Cool thanks, I'll check them out

>> No.6676716

>>6676698
I'd recommend R. K. Narayan's Malgudi Days or Swamy and Friends, because they're a lot less serious and really good at immersion. He's a master at transporting you right to the time and place. Kind of like Rudyard Kipling but written from the Indian perspective.

>> No.6676737
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6676737

>>6676634
>But I could relate to him more than the average reader.

And the trees sing through their branches, "You have a long way to go."

You sound very pretentious. I don't think you relate to the Buddha at all.

>> No.6676741

>>6676697
I'm one of the steppenwolf wives!

>> No.6676745

>>6676737
>not reading the book
>thinking siddhartha is the Buddha even though Buddha is referred to as Gotama in the book
I related to Siddhartha, the protagonist. Not the Buddha, who was mainly depicted as an enigma.

>> No.6676775

>>6676745
Interesting. I relate more to the ferryman.

The chapters with Siddhartha's son reminded me of Kahlil Gibran's chapter in the Prophet, Children.

>> No.6676799

>>6676775
Siddhartha basically becomes the ferryman by the end. But Siddhartha's son's behavior is the natural extension of Siddhartha's behavior as a teenager. He left home and never once did he come back or talk to his parents again. Siddhartha's son not only did that, but he also stole Siddhartha's money.

>> No.6676841

Probably because he read Evola

>> No.6677198

New age spiritual bullshit for "omg I'm so over material stuff" rich kids who think wearing sandals all the time (and they cant take off their Ray Bans) contributes to the well being of the world

>> No.6677210

>>6676588
plenty of innacuracies

>> No.6677237

>>6677198
yeah, fuckin a. this book saw a resurgence in the 60s in circles where ponytails were considered acceptable hairstyles for men. every since then we're supposed to think that it's a literary masterpiece, when in reality it's k.

>> No.6677265

Literally a warm up for Narcissus and Goldmund and Glass Bead Game.

>> No.6678443

Which translation should I read?

Please respond so I dont have to make a new thread asking

>> No.6678620

>Hermann Hesse understood the East like no other Western writer before or after him. But how?

Nietzsche, Jung, Mann...a few other Germans around Hesse's time who were into the I-ching, Tao te Ching, buddhism and eastern mysticism I general. I'm sure plenty of other westerners before their time too. But especially Mann and Hesse liked to use eastern phi in western settings.

honestly you're comment is incredibly naïve for you to say like no other western writer before him. that's a really broad generalization about a field of writing you know little about since you're just discovering hesse now.

>> No.6678727

>>6677198
>contributes to the well being of the world
Mein Gott.

>> No.6678744

>>6676695
I disagree with this. You can't reject ideas because of how other followers view them and be enlightened. It's been awhile since I read it, so perhaps that's what happened, but in that case Siddhartha was in no way a Buddha.

>> No.6678752

>>6676695
>>6676661
what? no. Re-read the book, it's only like the 3rd or 4th chapter where he meets the Buddha. Sid tells him straight-up he believe he's buddha, but that he can't follow his way to enlightenment, he has to follow his own. It's that whole, "don't seek the wisdom of the masters, seek what they sought". All the plebes can follow Buddha because they don't know any better and it's the best they're gonna get, but Sid knows he can find the true path on his own

That was my favorite part of the book, tbh. He finds someone with the "answers" and then says fuck it I have to do it the hard way

>> No.6678790

>>6678752
If Buddha thought it was impossible to become Arahant while learning from him he wouldn't have ever spoken. There's no value in "the hard way". There's also no one way for people to learn, and Siddhartha didn't follow Buddha because at the time he was fed up with masters and teachings. It worked out in the end, but the that people have just as big a chance to understand and lessen or end their suffering if they don't listen to anyone else is not something I can agree with. Especially since Siddhartha followed the same path Buddha did, experiencing both hedonism and asceticism before finding the middle way (although in the opposite order that Buddha did). Then again, what you say sounds a lot like Zen Buddhism, which was probably what Hesse was getting at, but Zen Buddhism is unnecessarily vague for no good reason.

>> No.6678817

>>6677198

Cynicism for the sake of it, with no substance to back it up.

Siddhartha isn't New Age-y at all, even if some New Age retards cling to it (and Hesse in general). That's something that can unfortunately happen with anything 'spiritual'-related.

But this particular book is based in extensive study of long-standing Eastern disciplines—however beginner-tier it may be presented—and your point is further harmed by the fact that these disciplines end being rejected by Siddhartha.

True, it does contains elements of "be yourself." But it's not quite that banal, particularly with the symbolism of the river as being the totality of experience.

Maybe you should actually try reading it.

>> No.6678834

>>6678752

This was one of my favorite parts of the book too. It's better to be a light unto yourself, than graveling other people's light. Awakening, I assume, is not a second-hand experience.

>> No.6678868

>>6676614
Ignore them, they think that if Eastern thought is beyond them it's beyond everyone.
Also what are your thoughts on the caste system and the fact that your status as a brahmin is defined by the status of millions of Indians as dalits?

>> No.6679010

>>6678868
The caste system is fine in religion. It dictates a different set of traditions for people by birth, which means it's no different from following the customs of your father and forefathers. This untouchable (I have to take a shower even if their shadow falls on me) stuff died out in the early 1900s, due to people like B.R. Ambedkar and Mahatama Gandhi. Today's Dalits actually make it worse for everyone else. There's tons of terrible Dalit politicians in power (Mayawati) who create quotas and reservations for Dalits at the expense of other castes. (basically affirmative action by caste). But today any caste is free to choose whatever profession they wish, and caste shouldn't impact your life outside religion, marriage, and traditions. And my status as a Brahmin isn't defined by their status as Dalits (or Harijan, as they prefer to be called). I am a Brahmin because both my parents are Brahmins, and their parents were brahmins, and so on. The same applies to Dalits.

>> No.6679019

>>6678752
That's literally what I said here.
>>6676695

>> No.6679034

>>6679010
I don't think you understand the weight of systematic discrimination. Saying that someone's birth status shouldn't affect them outside of religion ignores the fact that religious institutions and prejudices are significant factors in most areas of society. If you have to take a shower when their shadows fall on you, it seems like the caste system still plays a significant role in your life, and you've certainly had opportunities (studying Vedic literature, for example) that they're deprived of because of their birth status.

>> No.6679035

>>6679010
You must let go of this system to find final release

>> No.6679037

>>6679010
>and caste shouldn't impact your life outside religion, marriage, and traditions
Yeah, because those aren't important aspects of everyday life or anything. You also can't have a caste without other castes, you can't have highborn without lowborn. Without lower castes you couldn't be higher caste. The existence of your caste is dependent on the existence of their caste.

>> No.6679071

>>6679010
>But today any caste is free to choose whatever profession they wish
Even if that's true I find it hard to believe that the lower castes don't face a lot of discrimination in hiring and in the workplace, and a lower standard of living than their higher-caste coworkers. Admit it, the caste system is an outdated institution that you're defending because of your privilege and lack of understanding.

>> No.6679072

>>6679037
You misunderstood. I said in the olden days Brahmins used to have to take showers when Dalits' shadows fell on them. Mahatma Gandhi got rid of all that nonsense. But yes, it's true, studying Vedic literature is restricted to Brahmins.
>>6679035
You can follow the caste system and still attain moksha.
>>6679037
You misunderstand. Caste systems are not intended to be highborn vs lowborn. They were intended to be simply divisions of society with different roles. And professionally, it doesn't matter anymore. Any caste can work in any field.

>> No.6679082

>>6679071
That's actually false. It's pretty obvious that you've never been to India. "Lower" caste people have maintained political power for some decades now. The government seized my grandfather's ancestral property in the 1950s without paying for it, so they could distribute it amongst "lower caste" politicians' families. My dad pretty much started from nothing and is now a software architect at IBM in the US.
>privilege
Go back to tumblr please. I grew up in the US, I didn't have any privilege.

>> No.6679088

>>6679072
>You misunderstand. Caste systems are not intended to be highborn vs lowborn. They were intended to be simply divisions of society with different roles. And professionally, it doesn't matter anymore. Any caste can work in any field.
>these people have no right by virtue of their birth
>these people have some rights by virtue of their birth
>these people have many rights by virtue of their birth
>these people have all rights by virtue of their birth
>not intended to be highborn vs. lowborn
The entire purpose of the Hindu caste system is the justify exploitation and hereditary right to rule.

>> No.6679092

>>6679072
>But yes, it's true, studying Vedic literature is restricted to Brahmins.
So the only significant literary objects India has ever produced are denied to all castes but yours and you think it's reasonable to claim that this is fair on a literature board?
>Caste systems are not intended to be highborn vs lowborn
>muh intention
OK Sam Harris. Are you denying that this system contributes to social inequality in your country?

>> No.6679105

>>6679082
>I grew up in the US
Stop defending your disgusting antidemocratic caste system, then.
>the government seized my grandfather's property
I wonder why? It probably had something to do with that privilege the Brahmin caste has always had in India. Privilege isn't just a matter of skin color or religious faith, as a Brahmin you're more privileged than a Dalit and Evey other Brahmin always has been, just like you.

Go back to India.

>> No.6679108

>>6679092
>>6679088
Brahmins never maintained material wealth. Their role in society was education. They functioned as priests, teachers, and scholars, and that's why the vedas were restricted to them. The other castes maintained money and trade.
>thinking Brahmins ruled anything
How uninformed are you?
Of course it contributes to social inequality, but if anything higher castes are at a disadvantage due to lack of political representation. Nearly all politicians in Andhra Pradesh (where I'm from) are Reddys and Naidus. I don't think there's even one Brahmin politician.

>> No.6679110
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6679110

>tfw Indian and my family converted to Catholicism hundreds of years ago
>tfw people still believe in spiritual heredity by birth

At least you guys aren't muslims I guess

>> No.6679122

>>6679105
Oh my god.
People like you actually exist. I had always thought these types of posts were complete bait, but now I realize that you can sincerely have a strong opinion something you have no experience interacting with or even reading about. Your entire understanding of how the caste system works is flawed, and resembles a feudalistic perspective (which it wasn't). Your idea of privilege is inapplicable, and you're justifying seizure of the few acres of land that my grandfather needed to grow food for my family. Please read more, or actually visit India. Nevermind, the latter wouldn't help, because people would bend over backwards to help you since you're white.

>> No.6679134

>>6679122
Sorry India has always been such a shithole that you don't realize how oppressive an institution that gives people permanent roles in society can be.
>Implying I would want to visit India
>>6679110
This guy gets it.

>> No.6679157

>>6679088
>The entire purpose of the Hindu caste system is the justify exploitation and hereditary right to rule.
he believes that there can be equality with people ocmposed of Billions of person

>> No.6679158

>>6679134
, he wrote smugly, from the comfort of his parent's suburban Ohio home. "It doesn't matter what the reality is," he thought. "What matters is my 9th grade global history knowledge."
>>6679110
>adopting the religion of the invader
Does your family come from Goa? Or Kerala perhaps

>> No.6679163

>>6679108
Using modern India as an example of what the caste system was supposed to be is what's uninformed. That the Brahmin have not generally been wealthy doesn't change the fact that they were the teachers of the caste system which justified the oppression of the lowest castes. I don't blame the Brahmin for every misfortune the lowest castes have endured. I'm simply saying that your caste historically has had rights which others lack, still have some rights which others lack even if the division is lesser now, by virtue of birth, in order to justify oppression.

>> No.6679171

>>6679158
>Ohio
Massachusetts, faggot. I'm happy to live in suburban comfort tbh, it's better than living in India.
>2015
>Not being an Abrahamist

>> No.6679206

>>6679171
I live in southern New York, kek. Technically I'm a hypocrite for calling you out but still your opinions are retarded and uninformed.
But nice work posting the same Abrahamist comments you do on every thread about Eastern religion and philosophy.
>>6679163
It's true, in the olden days the caste system was used for oppression. However, it was still better than being a serf in Russia, and certainly better than being a peasant in Western Europe. But Mahatma Gandhi and others did away with much of the eccentricities involved. Today's India is a modern one, in which the caste system does not have much say on your life. And as I said, most political power belongs to the lower castes. Poverty is the real problem, and no longer mainly caste linked.

>> No.6679215

>>6679206
I'm sorry you don't understand the weight of systematic injustice, or that this injustice continues to exist (in literally every polity ever to exist) even after legal action has been taken to put an end to it.

>> No.6679216

>>6679019
you're right, I didn't read it very well. lawl 4chan

>> No.6679240

>>6679215
Please read more. You clearly have no idea how caste factors into modern India. It pretty much has the same role as race in the U.S.

>> No.6679256

>>6679215
This is actually a very good article you should read. It might help you understand a bit more.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-not-past.html?_r=0

>> No.6679264

>>6679240
So a big one? If you think race doesn't matter in the modern US you're delusional.

>> No.6679277

>>6679264
No, it has a large role. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not necessarily backing it up. It's a construct that is thousands of years old, and most likely here to stay. I personally do not treat members of other castes different than I would any normal human being. But I do practice the traditions specific to my caste, and will only marry within my caste. Caste is part of my heritage, and it's something that affects how I practice my religion. This is the viewpoint shared by most modern Indians.

>> No.6679282

>>6679277
Why not just admit that the Brahmin class has always been privileged, then?

>> No.6679290

I agree, OP. I am opposed to most literature written for the sake of conveying a message, unless it is told well. But Siddhartha has one of the best simple messages that the smartest people forget, and that is to follow your own path. It's not the philosophical messages contained in it, like the ones that he learns from the Gautama Buddha, or whatever the mysterious river at the end stands for, but the fact that Siddhartha continually sticks to searching for meaning without attaching himself to a group. It is also aesthetically above what most high-schoolers read, or at least on par.

>> No.6679308

>>6679282
Because I never received any privilege from Brahmin status. My parents were at a disadvantage due to their Brahmin status. So were my grandparents. Brahmins have not been privileged. They have traditionally been educated, but not privileged. This is a difference you cannot grasp for some reason. Brahmins sought to distance themselves from the material world.

>> No.6679320

>>6679308
Education is a privilege, especially a religious education in a society where religious institutions define every aspect of a person's social existence.

>> No.6679353
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6679353

>Start reading it
>Get bored right when he meets "Buddha" and starts his actual journey

There's no cure for plebness.

>> No.6679415

>>6679320
Education is the only aspect of society that Brahmins used to enter. The other castes performed business, ruling, and farming. Education is not a privilege when you don't use it for material gain. You're trying to apply your knowledge of Western cultures to an Eastern culture. It's incompatible.

>> No.6679423

>>6679353
kek
at least you admit it

>> No.6679467

>>6679415
It is compatible, they're all societies.
>The other castes performed business, ruling, and farming.
So what you're telling me is that the labor capacity of the other castes was what allowed the Brahmins to meditate all day, and that this is somehow just?

>> No.6679476

>>6679467
No it's really not compatible. And if you want to put it that way, you could also say that Brahmins spent all of their lives studying and teaching, with little to no material gain. And once again, this is not the case in modern India.

>> No.6679477

>>6679415
I don't think you realize how much of a privilege it is to not be oppressed like the Shudra and especially Dalit have historically been. The lessening of that oppression is not a result of the caste system, it's a result of moving away from the caste system.

>> No.6679483

>>6679158
>he wrote smugly, from the comfort of his parent's suburban Ohio home
Nice job reusing that line from earlier in the thread.

>> No.6679488

>>6679477
Dalits and Shudras have not been oppressed for over 100 years. In fact, they oppress the other castes now, due to political power.

>> No.6679490

>>6679483
Yup. I took it from the other poster. I thought I'd help make it a meme.

>> No.6679527

>>6679158
Yeah we're from Goa, home of the highest human development index in India

How's shitting in the streets working out for the rest of you guys?

>> No.6679549
File: 1.58 MB, 250x220, nahhh.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6679549

>>6676588
You sound so juvenile and so does your question.
>before or after him

Enjoy high school!

>> No.6679555

>>6679527
By the way upon reading this it sounded meaner than I wanted to be, it's supposed to be banter

>> No.6679610

>>6679555
Kek
But I don't think your stat is accurate. Kerala and Delhi have the highest HDI. Even Tamilnadu has a higher HDI than Goa. Half of Goa's population at any given time is White tourists looking to experience the "authentic India".

>> No.6679614

>>6676588
over fucking rated. answers to absolutely nothing.

i'm not even sure if it makes anyone question anything. it has such beautiful read tho.

>> No.6679624

>>6679549
You seem so juvenile and so does your reply.
>nahhh.gif
Enjoy high school!
Also I'm going to be a junior in college.

>> No.6680395

>>6678443
Please can someone fucking answer this

>> No.6680416

>>6680395
Rika Lesser has my vote.

>> No.6680439

>>6679476
>No
You have yet to explain why, aside from your claim that India isn't the West.
>you could also say that Brahmins spent all of their lives studying and teaching, with little to no material gain.
So what? I'm a Catholic, I think Hindu spirituality is abominable. I'm also willing to admit that Catholic priests in the Middle Ages had privileges members of other classes didn't have access to.
>And once again, this is not the case in modern India.
And once again, I'm making a claim about historical India, which isn't confined to modern India.

>> No.6680512

>>6680439
Brahmins never lived the opulent lifestyles that Middle Age Catholic Priests were known for, and that Martin Luther worked to stop. As I said, Brahmins never focused on material gain. Dalits were surely oppressed, but by society as a whole. The caste system was not taught by Brahmins. It was a social norm which existed. Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaisyas all accepted this system. Even Dalits did, until B. R. Ambedkar and Gandhi showed India another way. The maximum oppression that Dalits faced was social ostracism. Of course, that itself is wrong. But it's much better than the forced labor of European serfdom, and American slavery. Only unclean jobs were available to Dalits if they wanted to participate in society. They weren't physically forced, but were socially pressured by all castes. Dalits themselves believed this was their role. Brahmins were better off than the Dalits, it's true. We didn't have to clean streets or remove carcasses. But we didn't oppress anyone. And for the past 100 years we have more than made up for not uplifting the Dalits. And today, Dalits are the reason that the caste system is so prevalent in politics. They come out in droves to vote for only Dalit politicians (who incidentally, simply pay for votes and do nothing to help Dalits socioeconomic status anyway).
>I think Hindu spirituality is abominable
Well you're dead set on not being convinced, why are you even discussing this?

>> No.6680565

>>6680512
>As I said, Brahmins never focused on material gain
So what? That doesn't mean they weren't privileged.
>But it's much better than the forced labor of European serfdom, and American slavery.
European serfdom wasn't that bad, really. It was better than slavery, and serfs couls move up in society, as is obvious with the birth of modern capitalism.
>But we didn't oppress anyone
Many medieval Catholic priests didtheir best to save the souls of their congregations. How could they have oppressed anyone?
>They come out in droves to vote for only Dalit politicians
Regardless of what programs these politicians institute, can you blame them? Do you not like that so many of them vote?
>why are you even discussing this?
Because I think the caste system is immoral and I'm not sure why you can't admit that it's caused problems in Indian society over the course of history.

>> No.6680803

>>6676614
Okay dude tell me more about Rig Vedas then? Uttara Mīmāṃsā?

>> No.6680858

>>6678620
Thanks for using the Diaeresis.

>> No.6680862

>Brahmin defending a book about rejecting Buddhism
Kek, it's like Jews upvoting atheists on Reddit

>> No.6680874

>>6676614

Why is the Caste system so fucking shit? I mean wtf man? Can't you tell the Aryans just brought that shit over to rule you people. It had more to do with skin color than anything else. Shit is fucked up. At least the Buddha was revolutionary and said fuck THAT. It was also revolutionary for women. Brahminism treated women like shit until Buddhism.

>> No.6680882

>>6676588
>I am a Hindu Brahmin
Hey gal, that's pretty nichy

>> No.6680897

>>6679010
>The caste system is fine in religion
Welcome to Ideology, population: Hindus

>> No.6680903

>>6677198
>I can caricature this book into memes
>Therefore I will meme it so that I can have more memes in my memeboard

Great thinking mang. Fortunately memes can be used to caricature everything, so you won't ever run out of smug things to say about books you haven't read.

>> No.6681125

>>6680803
>Uttara Mīmāṃsā
Dude just call it Advaita Vedanta like us normal people. As to the Rig Veda, I've memorized Purusha Suktam, Durga Suktam, and Sri Suktam. In Yajur veda, I've memorized Narayana Suktam and Rudram.

>> No.6681128

>>6680874
>brahminism
>skin color
Kek
9th grade global history detected

>> No.6681145

>>6680565
>So what? That doesn't mean they weren't privileged.
I've explained this so many times and you just retort with that. I don't think you understand what privilege is. Also you picked only one sentence of my explanation.
Serfdom was pretty terrible in Russia, and being a Dalit was still better.
>How could they have oppressed anyone?
Selling indulgences.
>Do you not like that so many of them vote?
I don't like that Dalit politicians buy votes and I don't like that most Dalits can't see that these politicians help neither Dalits nor other castes.
>Because I think the caste system is immoral and I'm not sure why you can't admit that it's caused problems in Indian society over the course of history.
It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. I think all you want to hear is "WHITE PEOPLE RULE WE NON-WHITES ARE INFERIOR AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN"

>> No.6681150

>>6680897
>talks about system unique to hinduism
>makes fun of Hindus for being the only religion to practice a system unique to hinduism
What?

>> No.6681158

>>6680882
Nah there's legit millions of us.

>> No.6681336
File: 45 KB, 390x500, World History.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6681336

>>6681128

Wrong, try a college text book Sir.
>Pic Related Source:

CASTE AND CLASS: SOCIAL STRUCTURES OF ANCIENT INDIA

>"When the Aryans arrived in India, they already possessed a social system based on a ruling warrior class and other groupings characteristics of a pastoral society...The ultimate result was the emergence of a set of social institutions that continued to have relevance down to the present day.

THE CAST SYSTEM:
>At the crux of the social system was the concept of a hierarchical division of society that placed each individual within a ritual framework that defined the persons occupation and status.

>...The Aryans, a mostly light-skinned people, were contemptuous of the indigenous peoples, who were darker. Lighter skin came to imply high status, whereas dark sig suggested the opposite.

>The concept of color, however, was only the physical manifestation of a division that took place in India on the basis of economic functions. Indian classes (called VARANA, literally, "color," and commonly but mistakenly translated as "castes" in English)."

Duiker, William J. Duiker, and Jackson J. Spielvogel. World History. 7th ed. Vol. 1. (Belmont, CA: Thomson/Wadsworth, 2007) pg 45.

>> No.6681352

>>6681336
>>The concept of color, however, was only the physical manifestation of a division that took place in India on the basis of economic functions.
Is this some kind of meta arguing in which each side present souces for the other?

>> No.6681371

>>6681158
>whole millions
Woah. Also, girl - upvote for that sass. Luv it, ur starting 2 warm on me ;P

>> No.6681389

>>6681352
It's a $100+ 7th edition college text book. You can believe whatever the fuck you want, I'm going with Duiker, he is a well known Historian.

>> No.6681399

>>6676614
>literally

>> No.6681422

>>6681336

Furthermore:

>"The priestly class known as the Brahmins, was usually consider to be at the top of the social scale. Aryan tribal society--brahmin meant "one possessed of Brahman." (pg 45)

>Megasthenes accounts for this system.

So yes:

>Brahmin
>skin color

>>6681128
Go re-educate yourself you dumb fuck.

>> No.6681438

>>6681389
Actually, caste is called Varna, not Varana, and it translates to covering, or envelopment. Another term is Jati, which means race. Color means absolutely nothing. Many Brahmins are incredibly dark skinned (I'm not that light skinned myself).

>> No.6681467

>>6681422
>Megasthenes
>Quoting a greek traveler who wrote about Hercules and Dionysus founding India, and that it was populated by people with backwards feet and no mouths
Tell me more about your incredibly reliable sources? Also the relation between Brahman and Brahmin is kindergarten level knowledge. And there is much more to Brahman than that. I've read the Brghuvalli.

>> No.6681613

>>6681467

Tell me about the sources you refuse to use. At least when I argue I bring sources to the table. You, on the other hand, are just a sourceless little bitch.

>> No.6681675

>>6681613
For Brahman, Brghuvalli is my source. For the caste system, the Purusha Sukta and Manusmriti are my sources.

>> No.6681706

>>6681675

Duiker, like many historians, do not rely on just one source to stake their historical claims. They examine multiple perspectives and authorities to better understand historical accounts. That is the point of Megasthenes. YOU on the other hand, are doing the same thing Christians do, when they site the Bible as their sole authority on matters.

Multiple perspectives equals better history. Know your shit from all angles.

I'm using Historians who use historical thinking skills to make their arguments. You are simply going to the direct holy text and "believing whatever is says"... Not every primary source is 100% accurate or true. Some of it can be VERY bias, skewed, or manipulative (especially religious text used by religious authority).

You can't be like the christian who only believes whatever the Bible tells him. You have to cross references it with other sources. Duiker did this, which is why it is "history"

>> No.6681794

>>6681706
I've been arguing with multiple people on multiple points. I might sound retarded here, but which point exactly were we debating?

>> No.6681835

>>6681794

Understandable. I've been arguing this post.>>6681128

I posted this in rebuttal:
>>6681336
>>6681422

My premise is simple. The aryans brought the caste system with them. The Aryans were light skinned, the indigenous were darker. It was a hierarchical social system to place their "race" over the indigenous. The Top of that system were the Brahmins (Aryans-white). Indeed, this has long since changed, but it was historically the case, especially when we translate the world Varana "color"

We know the Aryans were a conquering pastoral race, the Brahmin Varana system was a system to prop them up as social and spiritual leaders of the "darker" indigenous.

>> No.6681852

>>6680512
>But we didn't oppress anyone
My sides

>> No.6681859

>>6681145
>Selling indulgences.
Does reduction ad absurdum not translate into Hindi?
>It's like you didn't even read what I wrote.
It's like you don't even understand what privilege is, while accusing me of not understanding what privilege is.

>> No.6681870

>>6681835
It's one of a few plausible theories. From a linguistic point of view it makes sense. However, skin color has not played a role in the caste system for at least 2000 years. But there's a problem with you using the word Varana, or color. The actual term is Varna, not Varana. Varna means envelopment or covering. But the word Jati refers to the same thing, and means race. And the main flaw lies in the assumption that Brahmins were "propped up". They weren't a ruling class and maintained no legal power. Had you talked about Kshatriyas, I may have agreed. But this implies a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of Brahmins in society. They were scholars and God seekers, and not leaders in any manner.

>> No.6681882

>>6681870
>They weren't a ruling class and maintained no legal power
I've read numerous sources that claim the Brahmins were the only caste allowed to even read the laws of Manu. If that isn't legal power then India had no premodern equivalent to legal power.

>> No.6681897

>>6681882
Kshatriyas were taught Manu's laws by Brahmin Gurus at a young age. However, only the Kshatriyas could interpret and enforce the laws when they came of age to rule.

>> No.6681903

>>6681870
>However, skin color has not played a role in the caste system for at least 2000 years.

Yes. But it played a HUGE role for the historical Buddha. He saw this happening, which is why Buddhism is/was, as Religious Studies scholars call it, a revolutionary religion. He was revolting against the caste system, and his number 1 supporters were women. He said you didn't have to scale the Brahmin ladder, he said you can achieve awakening, in the here and now. Scholars have cross examined sources explaining that this emphasis was due to people frustrated with their place in life.

There are other religions who have done the same thing, that have acted as revolutionary religions. For example, Sufism was a counter to the treatment of Muslim women during the Abbasid Era. This is why all of the first Sufi saints are women, they were trying to send a message to the elites who ran the Harems. Siddhartha did the same thing in his own way but cutting the cord with a hierarchal religio-politcal system that kept people in place.

This point mentioned, is considered, by historians, to be one of the main reasons why Buddhism spread so rapidly 500BCE onward, it was a direct counter to Brahmins hierarchical system.

And lets be honest, it was a pretty fucked up system.

Also, you are right, Varna might be what I'm looking for here with color.

As for the Propped up. We do know that the Aryans crossed the Indus, and did establish their social structures on the conquered indigenous, they were after all, a warrior society with their Kshatriyas. Also, because they were pastoral, this is where the sacred Bull comes into play with Hinduism, a sacred symbol stemming from the Aryan pastoral society.

>> No.6681920

>>6681882
>>6681897

I guarantee you they worked less and ate better than those below them. I'm sorry if I'm coming off with a Marxist tongue, but when we examine how Buddhism was a "revolutionary religion," not revolutionary in a spiritual sense, I mean revolutionary in a socio-reilgious political sense, it makes sense for WHY Buddhism took off the way it did after 500BCE

>> No.6681922

>>6681859
Reductio*

>> No.6682240

>>6676588
Demian was ten times better. Its a decent short story that went on way, way too long.