/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6648150]

I just re-read this book and I know it's been discussed to death, but if /lit/ wants to humor me for a minute, I'd be flattered.

1. I first read this book when they made me in High School, many years ago, and I straight up missed the point because I was so young that I couldn't see any flaws at all in how Holden was behaving. I saw where he supposedly behaved badly of course because they're written very plainly, but I related to Holden to such an extent that people's critiques seemed to me probably the way they would have seemed to him- nosy phonies complaining about other people's lives.

tl;dr is it impossible to understand Holden when you basically ARE Holden? Is that the point after all?

2. Is the joke here that people who complain about this book often end up sounding like Holden when he complains about pretty much anything?

[Anonymous No.6648215]

When I was in HS, everyone had this huge boner for Holden.

>He's protecting Phoebe's innocence!
>He's just a kid who's trying to figure it out!
>He has a point!
>Why does nobody unnerstan him!

I was probably the only person in the class that hated him as a character. It didn't even occur to me until recently that all his talk about phonies was about himself. He was a phony, a front, for nothing. He wasn't a genuine dude, he was posing for his own image and his semblance of self confidence.

I mean, that's just a basic reading. How come my teacher never told my classmates to shut the fuck up and not be dipshits?

That being said, I dressed up as Caulfield for a costume party. I know what it's like to be him, hating everything but really not having anything in yourself to back up your own worthless musings.

[Anonymous No.6648249]

>>6648150
The whole point of the book is innocence, and the painful loss of it and Holden's desperate attempts to relive and preserve what's left of everyone else's.

It's about a lost kid who can't help himself, but by god he will help everyone else if he can even if he does think they're fools (or phony's).

Salinger's works usually hit heavy on innocence . This stems from his time in the war, on Utah Beach, in the Ardennes, and liberation of concentration camps. He was 25/26 at the time while other soldiers his rank were around 19-21 and officers with more responsibility than one could imagine averaging at ages 23-25. So basically, to him, he just watched children get slaughtered because technically he was an old fucking man to be on the front and not commissioned. A Perfect Day for Banana Fish is about a disillusioned World War II veteran. It's short, read it if you haven't.

The joke here is that /lit/ is a hivemind of fresh high school graduates still angsty about having to read books in school, and since it was mandatory (see the Great Gatsby), they think it's pleb tier because that preppy girl who was ditsy did better on the tests than a patrician /lit/ard managed to do.

Don't pay attention to the memes, it just means they haven't read the book or failed to comprehend it.

[Anonymous No.6648363]

>>6648150

Holden chooses not to see himself objectively for what he is [much like your interpretation] because in doing so his self-esteem bubble would burst and he'd have to reconcile himself with his short comings.

>>6648249

this faggot just read the wikipedia page and has all the thinking power of a lawnmower. Banana fish is a good short story though and is representative of Salingers' personal experiences.

[Anonymous No.6648438]

The book shows the emotional difficulties a kid of his age has (and that we all had). All his insecurity got shown in his "random" behaviour, all the bad and wrong choices he makes are all exposition of his inner difficult to accept that he is not a kid anymore, yet is brother will never be.

[Anonymous No.6648485]

>>6648215
is this some sort of ironic holdenpost or do you actually think that you understood the novel better than your classmates

[Anonymous No.6648846]

I know I get BTFO in these threads, but this is how I saw it:
> Holden is in that age where he has to choose between childhood and maturity. He has had problems in his childhood, therefore losing part of it. He is constantly reminded that he has to mature, one of these reminders is that his hair is starting to turn gray. Holden has issues with choosing is he a child or a grown-up. He tries to act like an adult, but it always fails miserably.
> Also he is a douche
Sorry btw, english isn't my native language.

[Anonymous No.6650036]

anybody who hates holden caulfield does so while denying the aspects of them which are like holden caulfield.

if you hate the book, think it's bad, that's fine. but if you hate the character in the book, one should think about why.

[Anonymous No.6650368]

>>6648150
He rapes his sister, Phoebe.

[Anonymous No.6650407]

>>6650368
this

[Anonymous No.6650409]

>>6650407
that

[Anonymous No.6650466]

>>6648215
>He was a phony, a front, for nothing.
This is made obvious by his constant lying, that stupid masculine persona he puts on around girls, the stupid nickname 'Jim Steele' (can't you just hear him talking about how goddam stupid a name like that is), talking to Carl literally only about sex, and a million other times. How somebody can miss that point is beyond me.
>>6648249
Innocence is totally the theme of the book. It's also sort of about hypocrisy or a different word I can't quite think of- everything he hates about the world he fully embodies himself, he is the very thing he is trying to prevent. He wishes to save kids from the harsh reality of the world and the prostitution and the alcohol and fighting but Holden, basically a child himself, submits himself to all of these in the process. The book captures the feeling teenagers get when they place themselves outside of everything, how they criticize things without for a second considering that they could fall under it- and if they do realize they partake in activities they despise, they assume it's alright for them because they're different. If you want evidence that this book is so good at simulating this, look at the countless teenagers who idolize Holden and relate to him. There are legitimately a lot of people who think that Holden is really different, really the things that he makes himself out to be.

[Anonymous No.6650475]

>>6650368

Explains why, as he was about to get it in, he thinks of his sister.

[Anonymous No.6650486]

>>6650466
>If you want evidence that this book is so good at simulating this, look at the countless teenagers who idolize Holden and relate to him.
I think part of its brilliance is that it stimulates the exact same thing in kids who hate the book, they bitch about how the story is just bitching.

[Anonymous No.6650501]

>>6650486
>I think part of its brilliance is that it stimulates the exact same thing in kids who hate the book, they bitch about how the story is just bitching.
I'm not sure if that was intended by the author, as I'm not sure many people really have the gift to know whether or not high schoolers will be reading their book decades later for a class. But I do find it pretty funny that young teens often react the book in the same way Holden probably would.

[Anonymous No.6650581]

>>6650036
amen

[Anonymous No.6651506]

>>6650501
It's not about anticipating the audience, it's about the underlying moral of the story. The more insular you become the more you will subconsciously disgust yourself and exemplify what you're attempting to isolate yourself from experiencing. Your separation is illusory, yet the illusion is inseparable from your sense of self.
>I'm not like Holden. He's whiney. Why do we have to read this stupid fucking book? It's so boring.
>Holden's right, people are like that. They're selfish and they lie even to themselves and they do it so well they can't tell they're doing it anymore. Why can't people just let go of petty bullshit? I'm going to brood about how that relates to my life for the next 2 hours.

[Anonymous No.6652564]

testbump

[Anonymous No.6652575]

>>6648215
>tfw i've pretended to be someone else for so long i can't remember who i was

[Anonymous No.6652584]

>>6648150
Here:
>Holden's brother dies
>Holden can't handle it
>Holden feels like he now has to be an adult
>doesn't know how
>thinks going to the city and renting prostitutes will make him an adult because that's how he perceives adults
>it doesn't
>he now hates adults and mistrusts them
>the entire old teacher attempted molestation thing was constructed by Holden
>IT DIDNT HAPPEN

But yeah it's about a loss of innocence and the transition between kids and adults

[Anonymous No.6652590]

>>6648846
Nah you nailed it

[Anonymous No.6652610]

>>6652584
You forget Holden's dad raping him about 20 times.

[Anonymous No.6652620]

>>6652610
I thought the quote went along the lines of "that's happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid"
>since I was a kid

I'm Pretty sure holden's mistrust of adults started after his brother's death. I know my post made it seem that started after his visit to the city but I fucked that up. What's more likely? Holden constructing these attempted molestations or that he has been molested about 20 times? Furthermore, when does it say his dad molesyed him? Is that written of speculation.

Not trying to be antagonistic, just curious

[Anonymous No.6652624]

>>6652620
*or speculation

Fucking mobile I hate you

[Anonymous No.6652642]

>>6652620
<I won't tell you the whole story, my parents are really touchy. Especially my father.

PAGE FUCKEN ONE

[Anonymous No.6652652]

>>6652642
>they're quite touchy about anything like that, especially my father
>about anything like that

Nice quote anon

[Anonymous No.6652658]

>>6652652
Nice quote mate<

I see you're not familiar with advanced quoting features.

[Anonymous No.6652838]

Has someone here read his short story, "Slight Rebellion off Madison"? It's supposed to be the base for "Catcher in the Rye". If someone has it or a link for it, I would be much obliged.

[Anonymous No.6652907]

>>6652575
>>>tfw i've pretended to be someone else for so long i can't remember who i was
>tfw I know that feel

what are we doing