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/lit/ - Literature

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6619277 No.6619277[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Why was Jesus' sacrifice necessary to forgive us all? Why wasn't it enough for God to just forgive us? He is all powerful, after all.

>> No.6619285

>>6619277
God is perfectly just and sin requires death. God suffered that death Himself so that those who believe in Christ need not suffer it.

>> No.6619288

>Expecting logic or coherence from the bible.
>2015CE

>> No.6619290

Because yet again the Jews couldn't (wouldn't) uphold God's law. Jesus Christ made the faith much simpler and easier to obay for everyone.

>> No.6619314
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6619314

Sin isn't just about violating God's law or whatever. It is a state of separation from the divine. God has to immerse himself in that separation by plunging into the wages of sin (pain, death and hell) in order to give us something to grab onto. The only other way he could get us out would be to force us out of sin, which can only happen through love--but forced love is not actually love, so that doesn't work.

http://archive.episcopalchurch.org/109399_14480_ENG_HTM.htm
>Eternal death in our rejection of God (BCP, p. 862). This state or place of separation from God is closely related to the concept of human free will. We may choose to accept or reject God. We will not be forced by God to receive God's love. Hell is a permanent state of separation from God that can be freely chosen, not God's angry punishment for misdeeds.

>> No.6619319

>>6619290
The only thing he did was make it less Islam-esque. Lol!

>> No.6619331
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6619331

>>6619277

because Christianity is fucking retarded

>> No.6619344

>>6619277
>Why was Jesus' sacrifice necessary to forgive us all?
if you study mythology it's a common theme within many cultures. the christfags just did what they always do and incorporated it into their religion, because they're like IRL Borg. Then philosophers and theologists actually tried to make sense of it because it was their job and so we ended up with far fetched explanations about it, like with most christian concepts, even the ones that aren't necessarily coming from other religions.

>> No.6619350
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6619350

All Christians should martyr themselves, die so we can finally be rid of your silliness

>> No.6619417

>>6619277

He's forgiving us for killing his son. This is culturally relevant because up until that point, the gods forgiving such a terrible crime was unheard of. It marked the beginning of a movement towards mercy rather than vengeance.

>> No.6619438

>>6619350
What about islam bro?

>> No.6619445
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6619445

>>6619438
That too.

>> No.6619448

>>6619277
Because someone called Jesus got executed by the Romans and his followers had to come up with some excuse as to why that happened to their chosen guy.

>> No.6619485
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6619485

>>6619417

>christianity
>merciful

Most christians support the death penalty and carried out thousands of massacres throughout history

Whatever god did didn't really work out.

>> No.6619521

>>6619448
tip

>> No.6619533

>>6619314
>which can only happen through love--but forced love is not actually love, so that doesn't work.
Exactly this.

>> No.6619542

>>6619277
who cares, religion is a meme
it should not be taken seriously

>> No.6619555

>>6619485
they have lots of excuses for all of that though so no sweat

>> No.6619573
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6619573

>>6619277
>OP asks christians a question
>atheists feel like their opinion is welcome
fucking atheists

>> No.6619576

>>6619573
who are you quoting?

>> No.6619593

>>6619277
God is a hypocrite, and a fiend. Christ's sacrifice is worthless unless acknowledged that it was necessary, and no logical man would ever accept being judged for sins by an entity that created free will and was either too ignorant, too blind, too depraved, or too stupid to anticipate that people would sin. Ultimately, sin is God's own fault, and a deity that shortsighted isn't worthy of worship.

>> No.6619594

Think about it, If God just forgave us nothing would change. You'd think humanity would be like, 'Ok thanks man lol we'll now respect you forever'

Jesus sent a message that he was willing to go that far for his faith. Even if you don't believe its not hard to understand

>> No.6619596

>>6619277
Go to the theology general

>> No.6619598

>>6619573
>restricted threads on a public board
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhXz60f0HLU

>> No.6619605

>>6619542
Ur face is a meme

lmao

>> No.6619607

>>6619598
STOP TRIGGERING ME ATHEIST SCUM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>> No.6619608

>>6619598
You know nothing about the gospel, so why post ? Your "opinion" is worthless and founded on emotion and social determinism alone.

>> No.6619611

>>6619594
how did things change?

>> No.6619614

>>6619611
shut up

>> No.6619617

>>6619608
You know nothing about what I know.

>> No.6619626

>>6619617
I know that you will GO TO HELL FOR ETERNITY if you don't accept that I'm right and you're wrong

>> No.6619630

I don't see why god thinks its up to us to be forgiven of our sins when he's the one constantly sending plagues and floods etc to fuck our shit up

>> No.6619634

>>6619617
Prove me wrong by demonstrating your advanced knowledge of the christian gospel.

>> No.6619636

You have 30 seconds to explain the trinity without committing a heresy.

>> No.6619647
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6619647

>>6619636
It's not complicated at all

>> No.6619650

It is a deliberate echo of the sacrificial lamb mentioned earlier in the bible and continuing the many shepherding metaphors.

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

God knows that it is only suicide that makes people notice. He's a histrionic faggot making a point.

>> No.6619653

>>6619634
>makes assertions
>others have to prove assertion wrong
Sure is average christian in here.
>>6619614
Later, tell me how things have changed first.

>> No.6619661

>>6619277
The only way to be spared eternal damnation was to live life according to God's law. Unfortunately, man is prone to sin and thus cannot fulfill it. So He became flesh and died an innocent man, fulfilling His law so that we could all be forgiven.

God couldn't simply forgive us without that sacrifice. What point would there be in obeying His laws and commandments if one was never punished for breaking them?

>> No.6619662

>>6619653
>I'm 14 and I've just discovered Pascal

>> No.6619669

>>6619662
It shows, your reasoning sounds like his shitty wager. Actually I don't know how christians aren't offended at pascal's wager. I guess they'll turn a blind eye to anyone who seemingly helps their cause.

>> No.6619675

>>6619611
Honestly I don't know, I was simply explaining that it wasn't hard to understand why Jesus did what he did to the OP.

But to try to answer your question, I guess that more people follow Christianity now? He opened up a lot of peoples eyes. I'm not Christian btw, I just can understand it

>> No.6619685

>>6619277
>Why was Jesus' sacrifice necessary to forgive us all? Why wasn't it enough for God to just forgive us? He is all powerful, after all.

Our choice of our distance from God condemns us to further distance from God.

Jesus is a choice we can make to closer approach god.

Better ask: Why did God give us free will? (pro-tip: he didn't)

>> No.6619694

>>6619669
They are not offended, they welcome any pseudo-philosophical backup. The last time I was in church, confirmation/christening so there where lots of presumed heathens, the wager formed part of the sermon.

>> No.6619700

>>6619675
>I'm not Christian btw, I just can understand it
no, you don't
if you TRULY understood THE HOLY WORD OF GOD, you would not be standing against it, you would be FIGHTING the forces of SATAN in every part of life

>> No.6619708
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6619708

>>6619685
>Better ask: Why did God give us free will? (pro-tip: he didn't)

He gave us this heartwarming tail, that ought to be enough.

>> No.6619716

>>6619611
jesus' sacrifice continually justifies us before the father. we sin, then we repent, and the precious blood of christ washes away our sins. god 'passes over' when he recognises that blood because jesus was like the passover lamb, inspected for flaws and sacrificed. he fulfilled god's own law and god is just.

>> No.6619718

>>6619685
>free will
primitive superstition

>> No.6619727

>>6619669
It's not about the wager wich is nothing but a worthless anecdote. His works outlines the limits of faith and the limits of reason, and that is required reading for anyone who dares allows himself the luxury of holding on opinion on religion.

>being offended
I'm offended by little except people who wear buttoned up white shirts

>> No.6619728

>>6619700
Alright whatever you say messiah

>> No.6619734

>>6619718
You should try not to be a moron and read the proper studies on the matter, such as high-echo causality distortion and quantum mechanics. Of course you wouldn't challenge your viewpoint wich was born from emotion

>> No.6619813

>>6619277
So that the Christian can have a bad conscience.

>> No.6619899

>>6619288
>not having actually read the bible
>citing the year in an argument

>> No.6619905

>>6619350
If every Christian were to suddenly die the world's economy would collapse and a massive power vacuum would be created due to the fall the western world.

>> No.6619908

>>6619445
I know you guys are living Fedora Wearing Meme kings here, but if you were smart, you'd know the Jews, and their Semitic religions have created all of this. Christianity, is a less violent spawn than their original even more violent and ruthless religion.

>> No.6619912

>>6619485
Haven't studied history or theology much, huh?

>> No.6619915

>>6619542
>meme

>> No.6619942

>>6619908
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Religions are not inherently violent or pacific, that is down to the followers.

>> No.6619961

>>6619647
So is God essentially (and I'm not trying to mock anything here) comparable to a single person with three consciousnesses inside him?

Here's what I got from the chart:
>X=/=Y
>Y=/= X
BUT
>X = A
>Y = A

How can two things that equal the same thing not be essentially equal themselves?

>> No.6619966

>>6619727
>people who wear buttoned up white shirts
at least we can agree on something anon
we should set aside our differences

>> No.6619975

Even as an atheist, I've literally never understood this shit.

Even if God is omnipotent and omniscient and knew how everything would play out, he allowed history and the events of the bible to play out the way they did exactly as they did because history unfolding as such presents a broadly coherent lesson to people. If Jesus wasn't betrayed and allowed to be crucified, then nothing of value is gained in the collective human understanding.

Like, obviously none of it is true, but pretending it isn't nuanced and kinda beautiful is ridiculous.

>> No.6619977

>>6619905
can they die slowly then? just asking

>> No.6619980

>>6619961
You have fingers.
Are you fingers?

>> No.6619984

>>6619961
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univocity_of_being

>John Milbank hates Duns Scotus

>> No.6619988

>>6619975
>Like, obviously none of it is true, but pretending it isn't nuanced and kinda beautiful is ridiculous.

This.

I kinda wish I could believe in Christianity. Faith in a father-figure God who will forgive anything you might do has to be pretty comforting.

>> No.6619995

>>6619977
they already are

>> No.6619998

>>6619988
Consider that Christ's disciples were willing to die for their beliefs. So they obviously believed it, even though the Resurrection was first seen by women and the Apostles were skeptical. Do you think they all went through some mass delusion one day? Seems unlikely.

>> No.6619999

>>6619980
Damn, okay I can get with that.

But wouldn't that then imply that the trinity is three separate things that all form one being? Doesn't this mean that we can have three "Gods" in the same place at the same time?

That would imply polytheism.

>> No.6620006

>>6619998
While this has been one of the better arguments I've heard, it's not too dissimilar to the Heaven's Gate mass suicide in logic.

Plenty of other people have died for various different faiths.

>> No.6620012

>>6619999
Three persons, one being. Humans might be one being per person, but not God, God's being cannot be broken down in terms of human being, only symbolized by them.

>> No.6620014

>>6619961

Not a believe here - the trinity makes no rational sense. Every single way you can think to explain it is an ancient heresy of some kind. Take for example this guy:

>>6619980

This would imply that each part of the trinity is not necessarily fully god. That's subordinationism. Heresy.

>> No.6620019

>>6619999
Honestly, I don't know more than you do. That's the way I've always rationalized it. I rationalized something specifically intended not to be rationalized. that's probably the issue here.

>> No.6620023

>>6620006
Except Heaven's Gate had a living leader urging that. The Apostles were not all fanatically following one Apostle, they weren't even "fanatically" following Christ when he was alive, Peter (who was rebuked for having little faith, and even called "Satan" by Christ) denied him, Judas betrayed him.

>> No.6620026

>>6620012
So when Jesus was physically on the earth, he was the whole of the Trinity at his core, but was only representing the Son?

Do all three parts of the Trinity exist at the same time constantly? Or do they pass from one to the other like a single person switching consciousnesses?

>> No.6620027

>>6620006
>>6619998
Oh, come on. "They all believed it, don't you think there's something to it???" is a ridiculous argument. Obviously the fact that people truly, genuinely believed it is worth looking into it more, because whatever the answer is it is probably interesting, but you're making the dumbest leap in logic that christians always make and get put into epic hitchslap compilations on youtube. Give me a break.

>> No.6620029

>>6620027
stop saying I'm wrong homo

>> No.6620030

I don't really understand how the trinity is so difficult to understand - doesn't Hindu tradition hold a very similar idea about the sovereign god spirit simply taking on the forms of all the other gods, even though they themselves are separate and can interact separately from each other?

>> No.6620031

>>6619999
if you have man with children and siblings, you are a son, a brother, and a father. are you three separate people, or one person with three facets?

>> No.6620037

>>6619995
deep
>>6620014
>That's subordinationism. Heresy.
should i hang theses on church doors

>> No.6620042

>>6620031

Implying that God is not three fully distinct persons but rather one person who reveals himself in three forms? That's modalism. Heresy.

>> No.6620047

>>6620023
But despite the intensity of their faith, both groups of people died because of their faith.

Same goes for the martyrs of Islam and Buddhist monks who allow themselves to be killed rather than defend themselves violently.

>> No.6620050

>>6620027
The point I am making is that they were not zealots when Christ was alive, they were skeptical of him, and even more skeptical after he died. They didn't have a new leader they were all fanatically devoted to who could tell them he saw Christ alive. So you're left with twelve pretty skeptical guys suddenly believing something--to the extent that they will be persecuted and even die for it--that is enormously difficult to believe, and their belief is based on supposedly first-hand experience. It could be a mass illusion based on emotional factors, but that is doubtful from the perspective that the disciples were *not* excessively devoted, they were just reasonably loyal, and were skeptical of Christ in life.

>> No.6620056

>>6620023
this is probably unrelated but there are two borges stories in which he imagines a sect that worships judas because he knew the son of god had to die, so he just bit the bullet and had him killed, to the price of being eternally damned

>> No.6620059

>>6620050
But you're literally starting with the premise that events unfolded how the bible presents them, which I'm not about to entertain as a good starting point.

>> No.6620063

>>6620059
while then hope you enjoy heck ;~)

>> No.6620067
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6620067

Why does St. Thomas get to have a proof that it's all true and everybody else just has to be faithful? Is this nepotism?

>> No.6620080

>>6620059
It's a reasonably place to start with. Do you think the Bible includes the women as the initial witnesses, and the Jews accusing the disciples of moving the body to deceive the public, in order to bolster its case? Do you think it has Jesus talking smack about Peter because someone decided to insert that, someone who was most likely loyal to the Apostles (the ones still live) and those ordained by them?

We can chart how much historical events can change over time through chroniclers like Herodotus. The further he gets from the present, the more mythical his story becomes. When he gets the Persian War--which incidentally, happened about as long before his work as the events of the Gospels happened before the Gospel of Mark--the myth has been largely eliminated. The major factor left is the heavily exaggerated numbers of the Persians, but otherwise he's taken as an historical source.

>> No.6620081

>>6620067
No. Go look up the word nepotism.

>> No.6620084

>>6620031
Wait, was the Trinity even complete before Jesus' physical birth on Earth?

Was it a duality before a Trinity?

>> No.6620087

>>6620067
Thomas only considered the falsifiable.

>> No.6620097

>>6620084

I believe in one God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
And of all things visible and invisible:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God,
Begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
Very God of very God,
Begotten, not made,
Being of one substance with the Father,
By whom all things were made;

>> No.6620099

>>6620081
You go look it up. He basically favored him because he knew him. Meanwhile every other schmuck risks going to hell because he doesn't want to believe the unbelievable.

>> No.6620102

>>6620042
do you know the right answer or only the wrong ones
is there even a right answer

>> No.6620106

>>6620080
It really isn't a good starting point. Herodotus was dealing with straight up chronicling history, fairly biased as is, not dealing with the intended moral and metaphysical guide of the universe.

And to literally all of your first questions - yes, the bible is heavily edited and pieced together to present the most broadly coherent narrative as possible. So yeah, I'm not going to pretend that anyone should seriously take NT events as fact just because "well, what, you think they arranged the story PERFECTLY???"

>> No.6620107

>>6620099
shut thef fuck up loser

>> No.6620110

>>6620031
>>6619984
>>6620012

>> No.6620111

>>6620102

The right answer is that it's a mystery that can only be explained by faith.

>> No.6620113

>>6620107
Make me fagbait

>> No.6620116

>>6620106
ahahaha
your'e going to go to heck

>> No.6620120

>>6620106
The function of history back then was absolutely as a polemic and to instruct people. Even Thucydides wrote for those reasons. Herodotus just also happen to write to amaze and shock people on top of that.

Mark is not a synoptic Gospel.

>> No.6620129

>>6620120

>Mark is not a synoptic Gospel.

uwotm8

Do you mean John?

>> No.6620136
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6620136

>> No.6620145

I'm also going to point out Paul. A man of power who persecuted Christians, he exchanged that for being persecuted himself and eventually put to death. The idea tha he fabricated his experience, or that it was an illusion (including three days of blindness) both seem unreasonable.

>> No.6620147

>>6619485
You said Christians, not Christianity. Even so, the beatitudes speak in favor of mercy.

>> No.6620152

>>6619626
Not last anon, but I don't think hell is a physical place.

>> No.6620158

>>6620129
Sorry, I mean it is not a synthesized Gospel, it doesn't use other Gospels as part of its source. That is, it is the first of them to be written, and there were probably still Apostles alive when it was.

>> No.6620162

To be honest the best arguments I've seen for Christianity really are the stuff that Thomas is bringing up in this thread.
>woman were the first to see Jesus resurrect
>apostles were very skeptical of Jesus, a few betrayed and talked badly of him, but they still died for him and what he believed
>the Jews admitted that the stone was moved and Jesus' body was gone, they just didn't think he had risen
>Paul originally persecuted Christians but eventually became one of the religion's most devout followers, and was put to death for it

>> No.6620164

>>6620152
well then, youl'l learn the truth soon ennough :-)

>> No.6620178

Whether Christianity is 'true' or not, you can't deny that a lot of the circumstances around it are very mysterious and strange.

>> No.6620180
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6620180

>>6619573
Actually, people on /lit/ should feel protected and comforted from tvtropes of hegemonic atheism.

>> No.6620185

JESUS DIED FOR ADAMS SIN ONLY
1 corinthians 15
ut now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive


So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly

>> No.6620194

>>6620178
2spoopy

>> No.6620195
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6620195

>>6619975
>nuanced and kinda beautiful
nothing wrong with this
it's mythology and should be regarded as such, the problems arise when people try to pretend it actually makes sense and write libraries worth of stuff filled with fallacies to do so.
like, we've been talking about the trinity. trinity is a concept you can find in a lot of indoeuropean myths and christianity adopted it because, as I already pointed out, that's how culture works, especially when it expands to other places. there's nothing wrong with admitting that either, but instead we have to make it a dogma because otherwise the priests are not gonna feel important while wearing their pointy hats.

>> No.6620225

>>6620162
It should also be noted that the Gospel of Luke was written by someone who personally knew the Apostles and Paul. We can tell this because we know he wrote Acts, and during the narration of Acts, he starts using first-personal plural in parts starting in Chapter 16.

>> No.6620232

>>6620195

So your logic Is if stories feature some similar themes and symbolic language either all the stories are true or they are false.

I see

>> No.6620243
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6620243

>>6620232
I have no idea what you decided to construe as "my logic", but whatever helps your well being, I'm willing to concede.

>> No.6620280

>>6620081
Look up who Jesus' mother and brothers were.

>> No.6620293

>>6620195
This post smells of brimstone.

>> No.6620297

>>6620293
I ate a box of matches.

>> No.6620303
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6620303

>>6620293
Solve Et Coagula!

redruM! redruM!

>> No.6620314

>>6620303
does the militaristic antichrist listen to jungle beat?

>> No.6620325

>>6620314
Nah, he just plays Die Walkure on a loop all day every day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05eVjgMEuWs

>> No.6620373

>>6619288
I have my bible on the shelf right next to my Tolkien and George RR Martin books

>> No.6620455
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6620455

Can we just post various religious-related things here so the mods don't go crazy?

I like going to the various religious subs on reddit, including /r/atheism, and find the most idiotic examples of their users.