/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6586204]

150 pages into a copy of 120 Days of Sodom "and associated writings".

I came into this thinking "Okay, a lot of people drop it because they can't handle it. I read Blood Meme, I can disassociate action from the body." But I can't /lit/. I can't.

The Marquis says in the introduction:
>"Many of the extravagances you are about to see illustrated will doubtless displease you, yes, I am well aware of it, but there are amongst them a few which will warm you to the point of costing you some fuck, and that, reader, is all we ask of you... are you going to love them all? No, surely not, but this prodigous variety enlarges the bounds of your choice and delight..."

I fapped to it /lit/. Just a little. It was monstrous how right he was. Some of it horrified me, a lot so far as injured elements of my soul. I fapped to parts. I am having a very difficult time rationalizing my actions with my Kierkegaard influenced Catholicism. Any help? Because this is killing me a bit. Feeling a bit pic related, I already read Simone De Beauvoir's essay on Sade.

[Anonymous No.6586221]

Guise.

[Anonymous No.6586224]

>>6586204

>giving this much of a shit

you ever fap to gore? I did that a lot in my teens

[Anonymous No.6586243]

There's piss and shit and cum and blood in the human soul, just as much as there is love. One needs to come to recognise that, if he is to become a truly 'modern man', but at the same time he must be careful not to get completely dissoluted in it. The transformation comes from unification of opposites.

[Anonymous No.6586247]

>>6586204
I don't really think you're meant to take it as a serious literary work, bro.

[Anonymous No.6586260]

>>6586204
>I am having a very difficult time rationalizing my actions with my Kierkegaard influenced Catholicism
>tfw OP reminds you how spooked some people are

[Anonymous No.6586262]

it's porn

it's meant to be offensive

[Anonymous No.6586273]

>>6586243

I'm trying to appreciate this dichotomy, Beauvoir said something about sex being erotic through its transgression as crime against the sacred. I don't know, I feel that as I become more the ascetic, this becomes a more solid element of my personality that I've yet to be rid. My ego is almost entirely gone, I'm charitable and do good works, I pray often and take time to think about God. I just can't or won't give up the instinctual aspects of my sexuality, or can't figure out how to balance them. I suppose that's up to me, but I'm looking for advice.

Freud or Jung have anything on the topic?

>>6586260

Alright, ignoring the names, how would you approach the basic idea of self control? As an egoist, isn't it important to say what you do and not want for yourself? Surely you draw limits. How so? That's what i'm trying to figure out, how to draw limits, and what the limits mean.

[Anonymous No.6586281]

You're only abnormal if you fap to Juliette as a dude and Justine as a girl instead of the other way around, and the world needs some faggots.

[Anonymous No.6586296]

>>6586204
>Okay, a lot of people drop it because they can't handle it.
No, a lot of people drop it because it's badly written and has no value except for maybe some fap material

[Anonymous No.6586303]

haven't read 120 days yet but I started fapping to Juliette on like page 15 and it pretty much ruined vanilla porn for me ever since

[Anonymous No.6586307]

>>6586273
>how would you approach the basic idea of self control? As an egoist, isn't it important to say what you do and not want for yourself? Surely you draw limits. How so?
Judge everything on a case by case basis. Set no rigid limits. If you will something then do it, or don't it doesn't matter either way.

[Anonymous No.6586318]

>>6586307

In which case your individual perception is only subject to extent circumstances, which destroys the meaning of your choice, because you were lead to it by circumstance. The circumstance which is supposedly under the control or only existential within the perception of the egoist, which would mean you either created a situation you couldn't control, or you never had it. Occam's razor.

I'm not even straw manning.

[Anonymous No.6586336]

>>6586318
None of this is concerning. My decisions don't need meaning.

[Anonymous No.6586346]

>>6586204
Dude, don't feel bad. I fapped to 120 Days with no remorse; Sade just has a way to spill the fuck doesn't he?

[Anonymous No.6586351]

>>6586204
>few which will warm you to the point of costing you some fuck
What is fuck in this context? How to make positive or negative gains of fuck?

[Anonymous No.6586355]

>>6586351
Fuck, refers to semen, my dear sir.

[Anonymous No.6586359]

>>6586336

In which case their amalgation, or your life, doesn't either. Tell me bro, if you, the creative nothing, has no meaning, why is it worthwhile to pursue meaningless pleasure?

>>6586351

He terms one's sperm or ejaculate as 'fuck'. People have all kinds of euphemisms.

[Anonymous No.6586380]

>>6586359
>In which case their amalgation, or your life, doesn't either
Sounds about right.

>Tell me bro, if you, the creative nothing, has no meaning, why is it worthwhile to pursue meaningless pleasure?
I don't pursue pleasure. I merely want to enact my will without reserve (or as much reserve as I entitle myself to). It's worthwhile because I am the creative nothing, I am the most important thing to myself.

[Anonymous No.6586384]

>>6586273
She literally expropriated that from bataille

[Anonymous No.6586387]

it's too late OP you're gonna burn in hell. you shouldn't have ever bought it

[Anonymous No.6586400]

>>6586273
I'm not sure whether you're talking about the idea of opposites as a whole, or just the dichotomy of the romantic and sexual, however, Jung has a lot on either of those subjects (and when I say a lot, I mean the entirety of his life's works relates in one way or the other to either of those issues). The struggle between the discriminatory ego and the ambiguous unconscious, and the road towards transcending that by reaching the Self (individuation), stands at the centre of Jung's psychology. Sexuality and love plays a large role in this, signified by the Anima/Animus archetype, however the issue at hand is probably also linked to your Shadow. If you experience deviant sexual urges, it might be a result of you repressing a part of your sexuality into the Shadow. You might want to carefully reflect on those things, however uncomfortable that might be, and try to find their meaning.

[Anonymous No.6586416]

>>6586384

I didn't read Bataille, and am otherwise unfamiliar with his works. Can you give me the elevator pitch?

>>6586380

If all you pursue is meaningless and your decision is meaningless, your self if it corresponds to an external world is meaningful. If it doesn't is is the only thing that is meaningful, but none of what is outside that has any meaning, including the exertion of your will. Your life has equal meaning in a coma state as it does with what you're doing, and would be equitable in a conscious death form. I recommend you try it out. Y'know, for science.

>>6586387

pic related

>>6586400

Thank you, I'm going to sit down for a good think over this. Maybe pick up something by Jung.

[Anonymous No.6586430]

>>6586416
Why are you so bothered by the prospect of a life without meaning?

[Anonymous No.6586438]

I was already an "Ass/thighs guy" before reading this book, but Sade elevated the concept to such an ubsurdly level I want to wear it like a Crown among the "breast guy" plep scum. And now I, like the Libertines, find vagina disdainful as well.

[Anonymous No.6586465]

>>6586438
>And now I, like the Libertines, find vagina disdainful as well.
You could not have possibly imagined upon typing this, the magnitude of reassurance you have offered me. Sade has opened my eyes to the perfect beauty of the prepubescent and the idea of even looking at a vagina has become repulsive. Could it be possible that a book is capable of altering a man's sexual preferences? I have contented myself with the conviction that he succeeded in awakening some latent sexual desires; any other ideas?

[Anonymous No.6586467]

>>6586430

Because that prospect itself is nonsensical and pointless. If life is meaningless, there's no point to it besides the waiting for death, which can be seriously expedited by an accelerated gram of lead. It would only be logical to shorten the span between birth and death, because if life is meaningless, there is a possibility of meaning in a state that is not life, which is death. Also, if you recognize other things as having consciousness and existing after your death, it is at minimum to accelerate your own demise without taking as many with you as possible, if not engineering nuclear armageddon and attempting to destroy all existing life as thoroughly as possible, thereby eliminating the gap between life and death. That gap certainly exists, and it's being purposeless is only an argument to shorten it. Otherwise you're just wasting your time. And really, not just yours.

[Anonymous No.6586479]

>>6586465

OP here, I feel like Lolita would be required reading on this point. I would say that it is, but that the person must originally have that preference and that the state of their allowance of it in their conscious mind is that which is altered. I feel like Beauvoir, Sartre and Freud would have more on this for you, though less of the specific material you fetishize.

[Anonymous No.6586484]

>>6586479
Lolita was not as visual as Sade's work; the former spilled no fuck. Lolita, if nothing else, only eradicated the notion from my mind that pedophilia is in anyway wrong and that to consider as such is easy only for those who aren't cursed with the natural attraction towards the young.

[Anonymous No.6586496]

>>6586484
Have you read Justine and Julliet?

[Anonymous No.6586502]

>>6586467
If the point you're seriously trying to make is:
>if life is meaningless why not kill yourself?
then I disagree, meaninglessness does not create the imperative to commit suicide. As long as there is institutions in place to create artificial motivations for living, people will continue to live regardless of any greater meaning. If life is really just a short blip of consciousness between two periods of nothingness, then we not see it to its inevitable end getting what you can from what it has to offer?

[Anonymous No.6586506]

>>6586496
I finished Justine about two months ago but have not read Juliet, I am saving that one. I think I lost some fuck to Justine also. Needless to say, Sade is among my favorite authors and his prose is top tier in my book. The eloquence with which he describes some of the heinous sex scenes is admirable especially considering how easy it is to employ vulgar language to paint such pictures.

[Anonymous No.6586540]

>>6586502

No, but it does make any time spent living wasted. You yourself said that these created meanings are supposedly artificial, what has it to offer? Nothing with meaning, you said so yourself. also,

>Implying death is nothingness.
If my Catholic God is right, i'm gonna laugh my ass off watching you squirm in the forest of the suicides. Or we'll both be nothing, in which case nothing, because nothing. Which would be under your philosophy the exact same thing as being alive.

>>6586506

OP again, only saying so to point back to my previous posts, are Juliet and Justine worth reading? I entered into 120 Days to further understand Sado-Masochism and my practice of it. Are they required on this subject?

[Anonymous No.6586553]

>>6586540
>Sado-Masochism and my practice of it
Please elaborate on this.
Also, Justine is worth reading if you appreciate Sade as an author. I think it's better than 120 Days.

[Anonymous No.6586555]

This has been on my shelf unread for like a year and OP's delicious moral crisis has made me pull it off and makes me want to will myself through the pornographic, repetitive tedium.

Thanks OP!

[Anonymous No.6586565]

>>6586540
>No, but it does make any time spent living wasted.
Time cannot be wasted, whether or not you regard some amount of time "wasted" and another "well-spent" makes no difference.

>You yourself said that these created meanings are supposedly artificial, what has it to offer? Nothing with meaning
Nothing has to have meaning. Meaninglessness is not inherently bad.

>Which would be under your philosophy the exact same thing as being alive
Not the same thing, they're only similar in meaning, or rather the lack thereof.

[Anonymous No.6586578]

>>6586281
I think I finally almost wait no maybe not understand 4chan's use of the word faggot probably not never mind it felt right in the moment so right so much explaining then it drifted away

[Anonymous No.6586594]

>>6586553

I'm a sexual Dom, and enjoy the infliction of pleasure on my submissives. I wish to better understand the elements which produce sexual control, what elements influence it and how I can use it to better elicit the reaction of my submissives. To this end, I've read Von Sacher-Masoch's Venus in furs to understand how the submissive derives pleasure. By reading Sade, I'm trying to determine how the Dom derives pleasure, and what methods a Dom may use to control the Submissive. I already have many ideas on the subject, but I feel a more complete understanding is certainly possible. Do I need Justine and Juliet for this? I don't really appreciate him as an author, but I appreciate the concepts he forwards.

[Anonymous No.6586620]

>>6586594
I'm confused. How are you Catholic and concurrently a sexual deviant? Just curious as to your thoughts on this.

[Anonymous No.6586631]

>>6586565

It certainly can be, as the gap between birth and death is only relevant to how long you choose it to be. If it is not meaningful, none of it can be 'well-spent' because that would imply that it had a net postive in relation to some meaning. 'Wasted' though only requires the negative, or in this case neutrality of change towards some possibly existential goal. So if the goal doesn't exist and the time is meaningless, it is only delaying you from your inevitable next step, which in your present situation just happens to be death. Look, its fine to fear death, if that's why you're not doing it. I don't fear death, and if I didn't have any beliefs and actually believed that life is meaningless, I'd go over to my closet, take down my shotgun and get it over with.

But it isn't anything else either, only increased time between birth and death. If nothing has value in life, and death is the only alternative, does that not make it valuable as the only other thing? In which case, one should get to it.

How is it not the same thing? Because you don't know how it is perceived? Because you don't know if your self will be? Both those things would be meaningless in death as they are in life. The same.

[Anonymous No.6586652]

>>6586631
>So if the goal doesn't exist and the time is meaningless, it is only delaying you from your inevitable next step
I simply don't see it this way. Meaningless life does no evoke the sense in me that anything is being delayed. I'm not the first Existential Nihilist to not feel obligated to end my life.

>If nothing has value in life, and death is the only alternative, does that not make it valuable as the only other thing?
No, neither is of value, but if you wanted to weigh them against each other, living is the only one in which you can even perceive "value".

>How is it not the same thing?
Conscious existence.

[Anonymous No.6586669]

>>6586620

Part of what I'm trying to figure out actually. You see my issue. I'm deviant in my tastes, but I don't exactly lie down with other men, and nothing else I've done is specifically mentioned. I'm a sexual top, and never actually penetrate my male submissives.

The Catholic Churhces main focus is on deontological ethics, to the point wherein they've stated that if one lives "A christian lifestyle" they may still be allowed into Heaven. Now that's hearsay on my part, and I can only really use a working definition for what that christian lifestyle would be. In my pursuit of pleasure however, I recognize the right of others to pursue their own pleasure. In my proclivity to whip, I allow others the proclivity to whip, or the proclivity to be whipped.

Beauvoir's essay on Sade (which i'm referencing entirely too often) talks about the necessity for investiture in the flesh for anything Sade is doing to have meaning, which goes against the Catholic tenant of flesh and body merely as the vessel of the soul. I rationalize this by not investing in the flesh itself but in the perception of the submissive and myself in relation to the actions upon the flesh, which influences the mind and by extension the soul.

Am I missing anything? I would very much like to avoid being a hypocrite, and am seriously trying to find out where I must draw the line with my fetish in respect to my faith. I used to also be into incest and to a lesser extent pedophilia, both of which still elicit a warmth in my blood, but both of which I refuse to act upon in any capacity.

[Anonymous No.6586707]

>>6586652

Just because you say "No it isn't." Doesn't mean it isn't. Just because you don't 'sense' that it is delayed, doesn't mean it isn't delayed. There are only two states in this, life and death. Saying that not killing yourself is not delaying death is like saying that the earth isn't careening around the sun. You will die at some point future. In the time between now and then you could end it. All that is fact. The time after the now point in which you could kill yourself to the inevitable death by other means is time delayed, or in terms of it's meaninglessness, wasted.

The change exists, and lacking meaning in life, the existence of the change must be recognized as being a change. Which is at least interesting, if not 'meaningful'. If value doesn't exist, what is to be perceived? Also, you don't know what you can perceive in death. Finding out would certainly be interesting.

Can't prove conscious existence doesn't exist after death, has no meaning in life. Also, how would have meaning in death? You can prove it in life, sure, but that doesn't imbue it with meaning.

[Anonymous No.6586758]

>>6586707
>You will die at some point future. In the time between now and then you could end it. All that is fact. The time after the now point in which you could kill yourself to the inevitable death by other means is time delayed, or in terms of it's meaninglessness,
Absolutely

>wasted
You keep assuming meaningless time is wasted, "wasted" is a phantom, it's not real. The only thing there is time.

>If value doesn't exist, what is to be perceived?
There can be sensual experiences without value.

>Also, you don't know what you can perceive in death. Finding out would certainly be interesting.
I'm operating under the assumption when my brain activity is gone and my material body is decaying there will be no "finding out", what I call "me" will be gone. As I assume you operate under the assumption of the Christian after-life.

[Anonymous No.6586766]

>>6586204
Is 120 days of sodom good?

[Anonymous No.6586794]

>>6586766

Kinda. The prose and presentation is decent, the characters well developed enough to accurately represent or define archetypes, but they don't attempt to transcend them or necessarily need to. If you want a book about deviant sex, a justification for deviant sex, a book to hate, or a deeper understanding of human sexuality without reading a respected psychology, I can't recommend it highly enough.

If you're looking for light reading, I'd avoid it.

[Anonymous No.6586797]

>>6586758

I'd love to continue this, but I have to get back to actual reading. I've kinda just been staring at the page while clicking through tabs. If this thread is still around tomorrow afternoon, we'll pick up here.

[Anonymous No.6586802]

>>6586669
Isn't the focus of Christianity to be conformed to the image of Christ? This transcends Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox or any other denomination of Christianity. The idea itself comes from scripture, and is not specific to any Church doctrine.

The deeds one commits aren't the sole indicator of anything. The faith matters. Is sexual deviancy compatible with the relationship Christ has to the Father or the Church? As in, do these actions mirror the transcendental relationships that Christ has?

The concept of marriage and sex are both divine concepts that are representative of the communion between Christ and the Church. Sex represents the union of the Male and Female aspects of humanity. Woman was taken from man, and sex is the reunion of the Man with his missing part, in order that his Nature mirrors the Father, who possesses both the male and female aspects.

In examining your sexual actions, ask yourself the following: Do my desires and actions reflect the divine relationships they are symbolic of? I find it hard to see that they could.

Do not take this as a condemnation of any kind: I myself have deviant urges and desires as well as being Christian. I think it is my duty to overcome these. You must evaluate it for yourself and ask the Lord and see what Scripture tells you.

[Anonymous No.6586818]

>>6586224

That probably explains why you still post on 4chan.

Grow up, old man, stop trying to be edgy

[Anonymous No.6586838]

>>6586416

Hey btw, if you want some place to start with Jung, you might want to consider this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAlCeJ4LuRk

Bonus: also quite /lit/ related.

[Anonymous No.6586855]

>>6586273
>basic idea of self control?
Invent laws, after that no thought on self control is necessairy.

[Anonymous No.6586894]

>>6586802

I am really am getting back to reading, right after I type this. I swear. I see what you're saying but the sexual deviancy I allow myself is almost exclusively within the bounds of BDSM play, which could in caused pain be a meditation on the communication of God with man in imitation of Christ's suffering. Consider the flagellate's, the wearers of the celice. Though I also choose to inflict pleasure on my subs and derive a satisfaction from doing so, I don't think that the want to create or inspire happiness in another is outside of Catholic doctrine or the imitation of Christ. My point in my passion is not actually the deviance itself, but the inducement of pleasure.

I believe that therein, or as far as I have so far been able to explain, my desires and actions do reflect the divine relationships of which they are symbolic, if that standard is to be applied.

[Anonymous No.6586916]

>>6586894
I'm not going to condemn you over anything. I would implore you to read on these divine relationships, contemplate scripture, pray, and maybe ask a priest about it. If Christ came down and personally asked you to stop doing these things, would you be able to? Do what you think is right; only the Lord knows each man's heart.

If the question is there, however, it begs an answer. What is the motivation for the sexual acts? Is it Godly? Ask yourself these questions and give yourself truthful answers.

[Anonymous No.6587137]

>>6586916
oh it's good to be not a christfag