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/lit/ - Literature

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6584506 No.6584506 [Reply] [Original]

>flames over Apostles heads and everybody hearing their words in their own native language
>turning water into wine
>multiplying bread
>walking on water
>rising from the dead
>passing through stone walls
>vague promises of eternal life
Why do people believe that this stuff actually happened? What makes it any different than other ridiculous mythology? While you can say 'it's a metaphor' about stories in the old testament, I've found that even Catholic priests believe that this stuff actually occurred as described in the gospels. What makes people believe that these seemingly ridiculous events actually happened?

>> No.6584532

If you really want to know, read Aquinas' Summa Theologicae. Of course, the original is something like 4,000 pages, but he himself made a summary of that, available on amazon for like $10 and is only a few hundred pages long.

If you don't want to read it, then you can stop shitposting about it. If you read it and still feel like this, go ahead.

>> No.6584539

>>6584532
Does it actually cover what I just discussed? How on earth do you justify all of that crazy stuff?

>> No.6584551

>>6584539
It covers literally everything. From counterarguments to basically every single argument against Christianity, to proof of faith and proof of everything.

I really doubt anyone can read it and not be at least altered in some deep way.

>> No.6584552

>>6584532
>why is the sky blue?
>here is a 200 page book on optics

How about somebody provides a decent summary instead?

>> No.6584557

>>6584552
I'm not even going to explain how dense you have to be to make this post

>> No.6584577

How the hell are these considered unbelievable? Christians believe in God, God is all powerful, none of these things are impossible for God.

To me they just sound like stories from some kind of mythology though. A modernized Joycian version of the bible would be cool.

>> No.6584582

>>6584506
God, these scientists and their obsession with "facts".
It's enough to make me hope that you:
>step on a sidewalk crack
>walk under a ladder
and
>have a black cat cross your path
today

>> No.6584593

>>6584551
Anything can be proven if you can define your own terms/system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox

>> No.6584599

Because they have faith that it happened.

That's it. That's the answer. Faith. You asked probably the easiest question it's possible to ask about Christianity. They have faith, which Paul describes as "the evidence of things unlooked for, the belief in things not seen."

>> No.6584610
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6584610

Both sides are wrong here. Most of that shit could have been accomplished with the tech they had at the time. Same kind of tricks, smoke & mirrors modern magicians use.
For example Hero from Alexandria invented a vessel that could be filled with both water and wine, with a rotational screw/barrier type deal inside to alternate which it poured... a century before Jesus's birth Egyptian priests were using these to astound the peasants. Look it up.

>> No.6584613

>>6584582
I hope so too, sounds like a decently evenful day

>> No.6584724

>>6584610
Why would Jesus want to trick people if it would just bring him closer to being murdered? Claiming to be the son of God is one thing, but claiming to have performed miracles and all of that will just contribute to the authorities wanting to murder you,

>> No.6584768

>>6584599
>the reason that I believe what I believe is that I believe it
Holy shit!

>> No.6584790

>>6584768
You wanted an answer, didn't you?

Or to quote Tertullian, "I believe because it is impossible."

>> No.6584802

>>6584724
>Why would Jesus want to trick people if it would just bring him closer to being murdered?

You absolutely no understanding of Christian theology, do you?

>> No.6586458

>>6584551

Different guy, very interested in reading it. Is the summary worth it in terms of convincing arguments, or is it actually just a summary of conclusions?

What I'm trying to ask is: I doubt I can read 4,000 pages, if the summary going to alter me in some deep way?

>> No.6586525

>>6586458
Well, if you take for granted everything there, provided that you trust thay a good explanation for everything is found in the big one, you probably can. If you doubt everything there because there's no evidence, however, you won't.

>> No.6586541

>>6584532
>aquinas

why aren't there ever any protestants on /lit/? they're so much cooler

>> No.6586552

>>6584506

The miraculous in general seems to present no problem in principle for God, so if God is said to have performed them, there's nothing inherently ridiculous about it.

The Christian miracles in particular serve a theological narrative that, in its broad strokes, makes sense of the universe at the metaphysical, ethical, existential, spiritual, eschatological and aesthetic levels, which makes us in turn willing to believe the things which are reported on authority.

>> No.6586563

>>6584506
The thing about these events that distinguishes them from conventional mythologies: they can be put at an approximate place in time. At the same time, these apostles (as mentioned in the book of Acts) were witnesses to these things. They had no reason to make it up; it got nearly all of them killed in painful ways.

They themselves knew these things were crazy and impossible. Their testimony was based on the things they heard and saw. They would have no reason to believe it if someone just told them it happened. They believed because they witnessed it firsthand

>> No.6586572

its God, he can do anything

>> No.6586590

>>6584802
i think its you who lacks it

the answer for all these miracle thinks is that if you believe jesus was the son of god then these miracles are like the least of your worries

like seriously, the point is that JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD he is capable of these tremendous feats

its also worth noting that the world is a lot less "mystical" today than it was 2000 years ago, people believed that common sorcerors would be capable of some of these things

and from then on it was canonized in the christian religion

like catholics believe in transubstantiation and youre here arguing about water wine?? seriously

>> No.6586597

>>6586541
protestantism doesnt have nearly the sizable canon of the catholic faith

the rise of protestantism coincided with the decline of religious works

>> No.6586618

>>6586597
>the rise of protestantism coincided with the decline of religious works
yes, that is what makes them cooler

>> No.6586740

>>6584506

>mfw I went to a museum in Iceland recently and they had quotes from thousand-year-old Old Norse texts elaborating on bible stories and telling you exactly what they were allegories for

The majority of Christianity is a joke. A very unfunny joke played at the expense of the rest of the world.

>> No.6586756

>>6584552
>decent summary
Daodejing?

>> No.6586947

>>6584506
The best way to explain it, given what we know about 1st Century Mediterranean history, it that at least the Resurrection happened.

And if it happened, the rest of the miracles are easy by comparison.

>> No.6587485

>>6586572
Except defeat iron chariots

>> No.6587516

>>6586947

Except it didn't happen, and the resurrection and all the other biblical mumbo jumbo is a load of superstitious nonsense that only deluded and mentally ill people believe.

>> No.6587528

>>6586541
>they're so much cooler
Ayy

>> No.6587666
File: 68 KB, 600x600, dantepepe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6587666

>>6587516
that's the sixth circle of hell for you

>> No.6587699

>>6584593
Aquinas was literally not using his own terms. He was using Aristotle's.. so... maybe you should start by reading at least the definitions in metaphysics before the summa?

>> No.6587710
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6587710

>>6587516
lmao I didn't know Dawkins liked to shitpost on /lit/

how's your goodwithoutgod circlejerk these days?

>> No.6587733

>>6587710
oh my god wow you so pwnd him haha like wow hahaha ha hahaha ha ha haaaa hahahaha no

>> No.6587734

>>6584724
I dont see the logic in that at all. Jesus didnt know he'd end up crucified. Our governments dont execute charlatans today do we? Not unless their cult becomes violent anyway. Appearing to perform miracles gave Jesus an edge over all the other messiah claimants that were around back then.

>> No.6587744

It's tradition. Most are indoctrinated at an early age and don't want to leave it. Even if they have some doubt, they don't like to dwell on it. It's more of an unwillingness to search without presumptions.

>> No.6587749
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6587749

>>6587733
>ironically using the word pwnd

lmao get a life loser

>> No.6587771

>>6586947
Jesus wasnt on the cross for nearly as long as most were. Probably not even long enough to die. Maybe he was just chilling in that tomb for a few days recovering from his injuries while formulating an escape plan with his diciples? Probably played dead and the romans didnt care enough to make sure. I mean people have survived shotgun blasts to the face. Its not unbelievable.

>> No.6587772

>>6587749
R A R E
A
R
E

>> No.6587796

>>6584551

I did, and I wasn't altered at all. Aquinas does nothing but play a game of semantics. His arguments are build on assertions that are either never demonstrated or that we now know to be completely wrong

>> No.6587825

>>6587749
>ironically telling a 4chan user to get a life while on 4chan
faggot

>> No.6587831

>>6587796
they are demonstrated on his other works
>we now know to be completely wrong
kek

>> No.6587843

>>6587831

>self organization doesn't debunk pretty much the core of Aquinas' philosophy

Cool story bro

>> No.6587849

>>6587843
it doesnt

>> No.6587865

>>6587849

It demonstrates the the organization of structure doesn't require a personal agency, something Aquinas considers necessary. It pretty much debunks the very foundation everything else is based on

>> No.6587872

>>6587865
>It demonstrates the the organization of structure doesn't require a personal agency
does it?

>> No.6587879

>>65878>>6587744
This is a retarded claim because it would make the spread of Christianity almost impossible. Also people convert, leave and return to it.

>> No.6587881

>>6587872

Yes, it very much does. It shows that organization is can be achieved by a large number of local interactions, from which larger pattern emerge. Emergence is the central concept in self organization, and requires no personal agents whatsoever.

It could be even worse, because consciousness itself is likely the result of emergence, meaning that Aquinas got everything exactly 180 degrees backwards

>> No.6587937

>>6587879
we were talking about how hard it would be to leave Christianity right now...not the spread of it. Obviously there was/is something captivating about the religion that can convert and keep people believing in it. Stop trying to prove people wrong, you suck at it.

>> No.6587947

>>6587937
It isn't hard to leave it you fucking retard. The whole western world went from Christianity to whatever in less than half of a century.

>> No.6587986
File: 56 KB, 1357x628, Prevailing_world_religions_map.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6587986

>>6587947

>The whole western world went from Christianity to whatever in less than half of a century

Is that really quite true though? Where on the map do you see atheism prevailing? I've heard your opinion before and wonder if it's borne out by facts.

>> No.6588000
File: 386 KB, 2608x2356, map-of-religious-breakdown-usa.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6588000

>>6587947
>>6587986

I mean where does this popular /lit/ idea of christians as "persecuted contrarians fighting the tide of popular atheism" come from?

>> No.6588003

>>6587986
There isn't a single predominantly Christian country in the west. Maybe in statistics some are Christian, but not in practice.
Saying that you consider yourself a Christian means nothing if you don't live it or even theoretically agree with main beliefs.

>> No.6588008

>>6588000
The fact that you can be legally persecuted for things such as quoting the bible or lynched in media for refusing to advise or perform abortion or being considered backwards for opposing gay marriage.

>> No.6588077
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6588077

>>6588003

>I know the TRUE religion of people
>Those statistics are just made up, not like THE BIBLE

>>6588008

What's wrong with that? It's called secularism. Abortion is a legal medical procedure and it's only fair that gay people enjoy the legal benefits of marriage. If you're against that, you are backward. But this is 4chan I guess, where regressive conservatism is normal.

>> No.6588094

>>6588077
Glad to know we agree that Christians aren't the majority and are legally marginalized.

>> No.6588127

>>6588077
>Why do people think Christians are being persecuted?
>Oh, because they can't practice their beliefs?
>Well they shouldn't be allowed to lol