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/lit/ - Literature

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6579971 No.6579971 [Reply] [Original]

Guys, guys, guys. If God is perfect and existing>not existing then to be perfect God must exist. Check and mate athiests.

>> No.6579978

not existing is more perfect asymmetry argument checkmate

>> No.6579987

>>6579971
But can he create a stone he can't lift?

>> No.6580006

>>6579987
No but he can create a lift he can't stone.

>> No.6580059

what if i told u we're all just a 0.000000000000001 of the universe's people and we're all gonna turn into dust eventually and sleep a forever sleep.

>> No.6580067

>existence is better than non-existence

And what is the based on?

>> No.6580077
File: 117 KB, 450x438, stock-photo-old-engravings-depicts-the-martyrdom-of-saint-stephen-the-protomartyr-the-book-history-of-the-87201862.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6580077

>>6580006
Dude I'm so stoned right now.

>> No.6580104

>>6580067
i tried both, i can tell you that existence is better

>> No.6580117

>>6580067

Existence is something, for the sake of simplicity 1, whereas non existence is not something, 0. Even if existence is pretty shit, it is >0

>> No.6580121

>>6580067

Allows more possible, if you're reffering to Gottlieb "Wigman" L

>> No.6580125

>>6580104
Existing is a drag. I would prefer never existing.

>> No.6580127

Your argument is so old Thomas Aquinas defeated it

>> No.6580129

>>6580117
Why is it 0?

>> No.6580137

>>6580117
A grave with your mother inside is better than an empty one. Something is better than nothing.

>> No.6580140

>>6580117
">" is bigger not better. Checkmate atheists.

>> No.6580144

>>6580117
>lets just rephrase the problem and imply this somehow solves it.

>> No.6580168
File: 21 KB, 239x258, 1359774355665.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6580168

>>6579971
What if Ala is perfect
Nature has always reminded us that Violence is a thing, what if god killed god to be perfect?
>Hurricanes
>Animals
>Your mom

>> No.6580178

>>6580117
Anthropomorphist bullshit niqqa u need to get off ur own dick

>>6580067
The fact that you don't know shit about what non-existence is, and thus the only thing you know and use as a scale for judgement is existence, and thus it is not more worthy; it is the only worthy thing, since non-existence is, no pun intended, non-existent from human experience.

>> No.6580214

>implying god does not exist and not exist at the same time being outside the being/nonebeing existing/noneexisting thing/nothingness dichotomies also being above (figuratively because he is "above" the above/below dichotomy) the nonedichotomy/dichotomy dichotomy

He is still a guy though.

>> No.6580215

>>6580178
Please. We shouldn't discriminate non-existence because we don't understand it. In this case we should use affirmative action. Therefore non-existence wins.

>> No.6580216
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6580216

>>6580168

>> No.6580223

>>6579971
Non-existence is clearly greater than existence, given that all that are inevitably cease and never become again.

>> No.6580233
File: 1.17 MB, 250x230, 1413934087022.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6580233

>>6580214

>> No.6580238

>>6580215
I heard similar shit from radical leftists. This is the essence of leftist thought.

>> No.6580247

Wait, wait, wait. If everything has a cause, >>6580233 causes me to get a boner for example, then there must be something which caused the universe-one uncaused causer. Namely, God.

>> No.6580260

>>6580247

>the universe possesses causality
>therefore it was caused by a personal agency

Sorry, how did you get from one to the other?

>> No.6580265

>>6580247
causality is just abstracted moral interpretation :^)

>> No.6580276

What is more common? Existing or not existing?

>> No.6580280

>>6580260

If there was not one uncaused causer, then it would be infinite, somethig clearly impossible. If there is an infinite number of 4channers all shitposting one meme, then there must be someone who created said meme

>> No.6580284

>>6580276
Let us beware of saying that death is the opposite of life. The living being is only a species of the dead, and a very rare species.

>> No.6580290

>>6580265

>muh there is no observable correlation between cause and effect

Bunch of predantic rubbish

>> No.6580303

>>6580290
This is why that Chernobyl thingy happened. Thanks Obama. Thanks 9gag.

>> No.6580304

>>6580290
cause and effect is a way to turn nature into human experience, literally turning the continuous into discontinuous unities, top-tier pseudo-scientific shit

>> No.6580312

>>6580284
Extreme pleb here. Could you simplify what you said here? I don't see the correlation.

>> No.6580313

>>6580280
>then it would be infinite, somethig clearly impossible.

Impossible? Why?

Also, you still didn't explain why this needs to be a personal agency with a conscious will

>> No.6580318

>>6579987
If God can make contradictions true then yes.

>> No.6580327

>>6580312
The 'living' is a property of matter under certain physical, chemical and thermic environments, and is in no way opposed to 'inanimate' matter.

>> No.6580330

>>6580059
>0.000000000000001
>mfw

Try limit of 1/x as x approaches infinity; then you'd get our (approximate) value.

>> No.6580333

>>6580313

>Why?
The rest of the post

>Personal agency
The uncaused does not perform an action because of a previous one, a ball bounces because it is dropped, so in order to be an uncaused causer it must cause of its own conviction, which is to say, have a conscious will.

>> No.6580357

Is God "alive"?
Is he conscious?

>> No.6580364

>>6580357
He's dead. Dawkins killed him.

>> No.6580370

>>6580006
>>6580077
I thought /lit/ was the smartest board on 4chan.
I see now that I was horribly mistaken.

>> No.6580379

>>6580357
Yes

>> No.6580389

>>6580364

>implying Dawkins is not a massive autist who gets pissed at creationists all the time because he cannot deal with differing beliefs-albeit wrong ones
>implying Dawkins has said anything new and isn't a talentless hack

>> No.6580393

>>6580333
>The rest of the post

Doesn't explain it

>so in order to be an uncaused causer it must cause of its own conviction, which is to say, have a conscious will.

And why can't this cause be a 'what' instead of a 'who'?

>> No.6580399

Here is a question that made me cry: Does non-existence even exist?

>> No.6580410

>>6580399

No, because it's preceded by 'non-'. It therefore by definition doesn't exist

Here's a question that will make you cry:

Proposition 1: This proposition is false.

Is proposition 1 true?

>> No.6580413

>>6580333
>will exists outside our perception of the world

>> No.6580419

>>6580410
Truth is a spook and is made by our perception. Spook spook spook :,(

>> No.6580423

>>6580357
Consciousness is of God.

>> No.6580436

>>6580393

>It doesn't explain it

Infinite regress cannot be, there must be something which started it and the post is an example of it.

>What instead of who

What implies inanimate object, lacking a consciousness which has been demonstrated as necessary. If a what can have a consciousness then it is no longer a what, but a who.

>> No.6580457

>>6580436
>Infinite regress cannot be
Two can play at this game. An uncaused cause cannot be, therefore there must be an infinite regress.

>> No.6580466

>>6580436
>Infinite regress cannot be, there must be something which started it and the post is an example of it.

Again, restating your claim doesn't explain it

>which has been demonstrated as necessary

But consciousness isn't necessary at all for complex organization. I know of plenty of complex systems that come about without a single personal agent behind it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

>> No.6580482

>>6580457
God is the universe that repeats itself in cycles forever and infinitely.

>> No.6580490

>>6580482

please no, this hasn't to be true

>> No.6580491

>>6579971
almost a thousand years later this is still a shitty argument and i'm baffled that educated people actually believe this. aquinas, i don't know whether you're dumb or a genius.

>> No.6580496

>>6580117
>bigger is better
Texas is leaking out again

>> No.6580499

>>6580265
>>6580304
could causality exist without it implying total metaphysical determinism? does anyone (who has given it any thought) support that idea?

>> No.6580503

>>6580491
OP came from 9gag. Don't even bother.

>> No.6580512
File: 546 KB, 200x150, 1305057188014.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6580512

>>6580117
>Even if existence is pretty shit, it is >0
>suffering is better than not suffering

>> No.6580519

>>6580503

>implying I didn't word the OP in the way I did because if I said "What do you think of the ontological argument" it would have recieved 2 meaningless replies and only continued in the post to actually bait a reasonable criticism, something which was lacking and still is. All that someone had to do was say "words cannot describe God" and we'd be done

>> No.6580521

>>6580503
Why would you assume OP was serious?

If she/he had bad grammar and didn't use the checkmate meme I might have believed it was genuine, but as it stands it's obviously a joke and not even troll/bait.

>> No.6580526

>>6580512

>implying there can be absolute suffering
>>>>>/r9k/

>> No.6580541

>>6580526
/r9k/ is full of misogynist self-loathing subhuman trash.

That being said, I've been suicidal (without self-loathing) for almost a decade now so go fuck yourself; I'd rather be dead than suffering. Main thing keeping me alive nowadays is knowing how much my already mentally ill father would suffer if I died. (Mother is kinda lucky-go-happy person and has two additional children from her second marriage so she'd be comparatively fine.)

>> No.6580543
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6580543

>>6580521

>tfw no applauding gif

>> No.6580556

>>6580541

>implying I myself am not a robot
>implying I am ignorant of depression

I simply understand that no matter how many times >tfw no gf and so on, the suffering you, all of /r9k/ and I feel is not absolute that, even if not obvious, there is some aspect, albeit minute, which is okay if not, dare I say good. Of course you would rather be dead, so would I. We both have people for whom we are responsible and people we cannot leave behind. The suffering is great, but not absolute.

>> No.6580582

Isn't that just a simplified version of Descarte's ontological argument?

>God is the greatest conceivable being.
>It is greater to exist than not to exist.
>Therefore, God exists.

>> No.6580583

>>6580543
I don't understand what you mean.

>>6580556
What do you mean with "absolute" then? Why does suffering have to be "absolute" to make your experience of existence negative? Plain and simple, if my suffering is greater than my joy, then my life is of negative utility to me and ending it is the logical choice.

>> No.6580586

>>6580521
Why would you assume I assumed he was serious?
Are you bait?

>> No.6580687

>>6580586
There was no obvious indication that she/he was joking when saying OP is from 9gag.

>> No.6580700

>>6579971
>muh perfect island
Shut up Anselm
you literally stole this shit from Islam
and it doesn't work anyways

>> No.6580705

>>6580582
>thatsthejoke.jpg

>> No.6580725

>>6579971
Perfection can't possibly exist therefore if God is perfect he must not exist

>> No.6581161

>>6580583

>I don't understand what you mean

I was applauding that other anon

>What do you mean with...

The reason is that if suffering is not absolute, which it is not, then existing is better than not existing as something is better than something. It has nothing to do with suicide.

>> No.6581200

>>6580370
It's actually /v/ when they try their best to not talk about video games.

>> No.6581320

>>6581161
>if suffering is not absolute, which it is not, then existing is better than not existing as something is better than something
non-sequitur

Do you even logic?

Trying to make up some reason not to kill yourself because you're afraid of it?

It's fine if you have actual reasons but I pity the fool who forces themself to suffer through life instead of taking the logical step of ending that suffering.

>> No.6581330

>>6581320

Did you not read the thread? The reasoning is to show God must exist. It has nothing to do with suicide. >>>r9k9

>> No.6581366

>>6581330

Did you not read the posts you were replying to? Go back to >>6580512.

>> No.6581446

>>6580265
You're better than this, Tallis...

>> No.6581648

>>6579971

pretty sure even anselm ended up admitting this was a shit argument and trying to cover his tracks

>> No.6581672

>>6580512
existing is only suffering when you don't have jesus

>> No.6581686
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6581686

>>6579978
Perfection in God implies Benig and no-Being, because while God represents Being its essence as perfection represents atributes bigger than Being in itself. (i.e. God exists while formally its existence is humanly and cognoscible impossible).

>> No.6581738

>>6580491
Aquinas rejected the ontological argument you dumb fuck

>> No.6581750

>>6580582
>>6580705
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proslogion

>> No.6581763
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6581763

>> No.6581940

>>6581738
Your mom rejected the ontological argument.

>> No.6582122
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6582122

>>6579971
>existing>not existing
kek