Is fascism the correct philosophy? It seems like no one can defeat Hobbes' Leviathan argument sufficiently ultimately we need a strong authority figure in literature and life thoughts?

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Anonymous Fri May 22 18:46:09 2015 No.6576537 [Reply] [Original]

Is fascism the correct philosophy? It seems like no one can defeat Hobbes' Leviathan argument sufficiently

ultimately we need a strong authority figure in literature and life
thoughts?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:47:27 2015 No.6576547 Hobbe's view of the state of nature is wrong.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:48:03 2015 No.6576548 Hobbes' Leviathan is not fascist

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:49:35 2015 No.6576558 Ahh but the strong authority figure...what does he need?

Anonymous Fri May 22 18:50:12 2015 No.6576565
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that is what a king would want you to believe.

it's not an argument at all which is why it cannot be argued. it is propaganda telling you to obey the leader. supreme absolute power works very well for Supreme Leader if you can cope with the sword of Damocles.

take a look at the imperial examination for an example of why Confucianism is bad.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:51:18 2015 No.6576571 >>6576558 >what does he need? logic to understand what is deontologically morally necessary, are you even trying?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:52:00 2015 No.6576574 >>6576537 You seem to be conflating authoritarianism with fascism. Stop that.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:53:08 2015 No.6576578 >>6576571 >deontological morality

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:54:34 2015 No.6576586 >>6576574 no he isn't conflating them. They just both apply in some cases

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:56:31 2015 No.6576594 >>6576571 >are you even trying no, it was effortless :)

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:57:59 2015 No.6576598 >>6576586 I think you should look up the definition of "conflation" and see why I'm right.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:58:02 2015 No.6576599 >>6576537 >hobbes >fascism Not that Hobbes wasn't right but absolutism isn't fascism.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:59:08 2015 No.6576605 File: 68 KB, 438x717, 1415311647797.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6576599 >>6576598 >>6576594 >all this side-stepping and nit picking

Anonymous Fri May 22 19:01:38 2015 No.6576614

>>6576537
>Is fascism the correct philosophy?
No.

>It seems like no one can defeat Hobbes' Leviathan argument sufficiently
This doesn't necessarily support fascism, merely more general authoritarianism.

Fascism as a term gets thrown around far too loosely.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:02:14 2015 No.6576616 Hobbes doesn't defend power for power's sake, he defends power as necessary to enforce rules (which he never really justifies as strongly or as clearly as he justifies power, but there you go).

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:02:20 2015 No.6576618 >Reading Hobbes >2015 Fucking retard.

Anonymous Fri May 22 19:02:43 2015 No.6576619

>>6576605
Using a word that means something other than what you say it means isn't "nit-picking". You can debate the truth value of a statement if terms aren't agreed upon.

Also Hobbes was a product of his time. He lived in violent tyrannical times and was afraid of violent men tyrannical men, so he though a single strong state was necessary to keep everyone in line.

Note that I'm using tyrannical in the classical sense, meaning someone who seizes power, not necessarily a cruel dictator.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:03:31 2015 No.6576625 >>6576619 stay on topic instead of worrying about grammar/lexicon

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:10:14 2015 No.6576658 File: 206 KB, 771x960, 1431979815198.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6576618

>>	newti !!BglvqPaJ/9X Fri May 22 19:17:21 2015 No.6576691 counter example: The USA, Canada and Australia are not fascist. Looks like Hobbes was wrong.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:22:04 2015 No.6576707 >>6576625 You can't stay on topic if the topic isn't properly defined. That was my point.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:23:46 2015 No.6576714 >>6576691 USA is pretty fascist in my opinion. Think about it, strong police force, multiple aggressive wars, the merging of corporate and political power...

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:24:49 2015 No.6576718 >>6576707 what are you confused about?

Anonymous Fri May 22 19:24:52 2015 No.6576719

Hobbes' justification of the Leviathan falls apart if we consider that the body politic is not a unified force but rather an amorphous, shifting constellation between the points of the application of force-power and the points of resistance, dispersed in accordance with antagonistic power-relations.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:24:58 2015 No.6576722 >>6576714 Yeah, but in Corporativism the state owns the business and labor interests, not vice versa.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:25:58 2015 No.6576728 >>6576722 crypto-fascism then.

>>	newti !!BglvqPaJ/9X Fri May 22 20:13:46 2015 No.6576890 >>6576714 nah. the usa is liberalist, democratic, lacks authoritarianism or state-enforced strict moral guidance because people free to say or ublish or organise nearly anything. To call the USA fascist would be debasing the word.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:17:20 2015 No.6576903 >>6576890 The US is not really democratic in any real sense either.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:18:21 2015 No.6576908 File: 1.98 MB, 250x187, 1431034964479.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >have social anxiety >rarely go out >read leftist lit for years >be big leftist >cure social anxiety >go to college >meet actual leftists for first time

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:26:22 2015 No.6576938 File: 121 KB, 1000x800, 1423098163830.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6576908 so you replaced one mental problem with another. cute.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:29:06 2015 No.6576949 >>6576938 they were coterminous you illiterate horsefucker

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:31:59 2015 No.6576961 >>6576949 Ya, I didn't check out the gif until after I made the post.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:38:12 2015 No.6576986 >>6576908 Me too m8. Now I'm apolitical and get blotto once every five years while every other cunt goes to the polling booth. Fuck 'em all to death.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:39:46 2015 No.6576994 >>6576537 How would you even show that a philosophy, if you can even define it, is correct?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:41:40 2015 No.6577006 >>6576961 sorry, you don't fuck horses

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:44:54 2015 No.6577017 >>6576728 "Crypto-fascism" would imply a secret kind of fascism lurking under the surface. Having a completely reversed power structure from the one fascism has would make the US simply unrelated, not crypto-fascist.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 22:17:32 2015 No.6577458 Did anyone else just now realize that Ankh-Morpork from Discworld is like a peaceful, Machiavellian fascist state?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 22:19:28 2015 No.6577468 File: 620 KB, 738x638, uisdgsdfgdfg.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6576619 >Hobbes was a product of his time

>>	ΟΥΤΙΣ Fri May 22 22:21:05 2015 No.6577474 Hobbes was non-democratic liberal, not a fascist. Rousseau's Discourse on Inequality is damaging to Hobbes.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 22:22:44 2015 No.6577480 >>6576658 This is the best one of these memes I've ever seen

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 22:22:56 2015 No.6577481 >>6576903 It's governed by people who are elected, just because the voters as well as the politicians may generally be shit doesn't make it less of the democracy.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 23:52:09 2015 No.6577872 >>6576547 explain

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 23:55:01 2015 No.6577884 >>6576537 The Leviathan doesn't support fascism. There can be a leviathan who promotes progressivism. But yeah, hobbes pretty much cripples any philosophy that says that hierarchy can be totally eliminated.

Anonymous Fri May 22 23:56:41 2015 No.6577892
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>>6577884
>hobbes pretty much cripples any philosophy that says that hierarchy can be totally eliminated.

ya, he's the stepping stone towards the right path I think

he just didn't go far enough

Anonymous Fri May 22 23:59:04 2015 No.6577902

1. Facism is not a philosophy, it is a system of government that has philisophical underpinnings.

2. Hobbes is empirically wrong about claims that can have a physical correspondence with the world

3. Hobbes demonstrated poor ethical reasoning while making a de facto ethical argument.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 23:59:26 2015 No.6577905 >>6577892 Who's this smeg keg?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 00:07:04 2015 No.6577934 File: 44 KB, 379x600, 1425235884893.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6577905 average hitler youth.

>>	twinshia !b2E8KBMQGk Sat May 23 05:01:03 2015 No.6578726 All that I appropriate as phenomena are or could be what is referred to as "Leviathan".

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:10:55 2015 No.6578748 >>6576537 Correct. In that, all societies trend towards fascism inherently, not that it is a moral good.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:02:50 2015 No.6578955 File: 180 KB, 517x768, 1430771414597.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6576658

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:21:09 2015 No.6578987 >>6576658 can I have more jpeg pls

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:33:00 2015 No.6579014 >>6576537 Fascism isn't the Leviathan, it is the Behemoth, the state gone insane. Hobbes knew that, why don't you?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:43:23 2015 No.6579032 >>6576714 the USA is a liberalist oligarchy. you don't know what fascism means, please stop embarrassing yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:46:32 2015 No.6579041 File: 278 KB, 1600x472, white ghetto.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6576908

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:49:25 2015 No.6579046 >>6579041 I can't even see what the last panel is supposed to be.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:52:48 2015 No.6579051 >>6579041 do people actually think this is funny? "ha-ha people eat food that is not meat". wow. great meme.

Anonymous Sat May 23 08:00:19 2015 No.6579063

>>6576537
Autocrats only come into power as a result of great strife. The (mature) Empire of Japan came about after hundreds of years of combat in a confined space, as did the Kingdom of Great Britain. Mr H came into power after national humiliation on the global stage, and Stalin after the Bolshevik revolution. No autocrat will ever be thoughtfully placed in power by a relatively free people without a truly monstrous threat to their safety or egos (although autocrats may be put in power over a nation by a great power, such as in North Korea). It's one thing to say that an autocrat's draconian powers might reduce crime and quash degeneracy through propaganda and proscriptions, that might be true in a Faustian way, but no people will ever create an autocrat thoughtfully and without duress, most people love what freedoms and representation they have far too much. If conditions are good in a society, a potential autocrat would have to conquer his way to that position

Anonymous Sat May 23 08:01:19 2015 No.6579068
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>>6579046
The author openly says that she can't draw for shit.

>>6579051
They're comics about the left. It's only really funny if you're a leftist. Even then, if you don't get the obvious joke, you're a fucking dumbass.

Anonymous Sat May 23 08:27:03 2015 No.6579117

>>6576908
As a leftist kid who grew up surrounded by stereotypical republicans I had a similar experience. It was really disillusioning to see my ideals twisted by city-slicker retards.
Now im some kind of weird libertarian socialist which makes no fucking sense but hey, hypocrisy is human nature. Yay misanthropy?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 08:29:55 2015 No.6579122 >>6577458 You didn't realize it from reading the books? Its pretty plain.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 08:35:56 2015 No.6579133 >>6579046 Its an empty room. >>6579068 She also cant into funny but i assume she wouldnt admit that.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 08:38:21 2015 No.6579139 >>6579133 >She also cant into funny I thought it was funny. Humor is subjective. Give me an example of what you think is funny. Also, tell me why you think Great Moments in Leftism isn't funny.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 08:39:04 2015 No.6579142 >>6577892 > italfags on lit > fasci I expect nothing and im still let down.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 08:41:20 2015 No.6579148 >>6576908 so... you gained hope? do you now only feel depression or has the anxiety returned now that you understand what people are really like?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 08:45:24 2015 No.6579159 >>6579117 > supporting the atomization of the left I cant bring myself to blame you, they really are insufferable.

Anonymous Sat May 23 08:55:57 2015 No.6579179
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>>6579117
you probably make perfect sense.
I often find myself questioning my ideals and values because of appeal to consensus.
I have actually had hipsters very convincingly attempt stealth psychoanalysis and inception to convince me that they are right.
but I have held my ground and eventually become a misanthropic NEET instead of joining in.

some would say that living the unabomber lifestyle is unhealthy. I just see it like I'm just not drinking the kool-aid with all the cool kids.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 09:58:41 2015 No.6579303 File: 134 KB, 617x960, 1431983033738.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6578987

Anonymous Sat May 23 11:57:04 2015 No.6579770

>>6577872
There is no true state of nature, the contact between two human beings immediately produces a social contract. With interaction between two human beings a set of unwritten rules are made between these two people and both do hope for protection. Therefore in environments of no government, people interact through natural instinct of morality. Of course unwritten laws are flawed but the all kill all, brutish relationships Hobbes paints of humans in the state of nature is inaccurate.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 11:58:50 2015 No.6579777 >>6576605 Eh, Fascism often has tones of total respect of the people towards their rulers. As opposed to Hobbes who is indifferent whether people like the leader or like the ideology set by him/her.

Anonymous Sat May 23 16:32:30 2015 No.6580841

>>6579777

Yeah Fascism is democratic in the truest sense of the world, they mold the homogeneous "will of the people" needed for it to work by force. All Hobbes is arguing for is a sovereign power. Such a sovereign power need not get involved in social engineering and propaganda, it just needs to enforce social contracts and be a place where decision making can be terminated and a normative choice can be made.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 16:51:41 2015 No.6580926 File: 8 KB, 320x295, 1425420412843.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6579051

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 18:31:10 2015 No.6581334 >>6577884 >The Leviathan doesn't support fascism. There can be a leviathan who promotes progressivism. What's the difference?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 20:53:07 2015 No.6581966 >>6576714 Is this seriously what passes for fascism these days?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 20:54:53 2015 No.6581976 >>6577902 >2. Hobbes is empirically wrong about claims that can have a physical correspondence with the world Example?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 21:01:27 2015 No.6581995 >>6576722 Fascism = Corporatism. Moosey himself said so.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 21:05:52 2015 No.6582003 >>6581966 You're right, fascists usually embark on wars they can't win.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 21:06:39 2015 No.6582008 /pol/fag IRL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ_MHp8iqtQ

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 21:08:02 2015 No.6582020 >>6579068 >she No

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 21:50:27 2015 No.6582189 >>6579303 So does this image pretty much admit that Conservatism is a degenerative disease that passes through four progressively worse stages?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 21:57:41 2015 No.6582212 >>6582189 It's just a joke, really.

Anonymous Sat May 23 22:03:57 2015 No.6582236

>>6577481
The implication behind democracy is that the people's will is done, thus the people rule. Voting is a means for the democratic system to survey and execute that will. The ability to vote doesn't inherently make a system democratic however; if the vote provides only illusory choice, insufficient choice, or is manipulated or controlled the system built on it can't rightly be called democratic.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:05:48 2015 No.6582241 >>6582189 And what do you advocate?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:13:15 2015 No.6582272 I'd say the last 200 years of liberal democracy and the whole field of anthropology since Marshall Sahlins at least neutered Hobbes' stance.

Anonymous Sat May 23 22:13:40 2015 No.6582274

>>6582189
That image is not very Conservative at all if you mean the American version. Conservatives are by and large either uneducated poor people or rich enough to benefit by conservative policies. With a sprinkling of people who despise identity politics.

That image is radical to the point that you only think is normal because you frequent 4chan. After the first two segments, none of that is even remotely permissible in conversation in our society, and your average conservative wouldn't dream of entertaining those views.

I know this because I live in leftist social environment and everyone around me believes I'm one of them and the conservatives are terrified to even speak their relatively benign views to them. I get away with being as reactionary as I am for various reasons, but lumping people like me with conservatives is nonsensical.

The best word for us in these days would be 'atheist' in the original sense of the term, because the fundamental thing you cannot go against in our society is the notion of equality, between genders, societies, civilizations, classes, etc. A conservative person would not dare to go against equality, Conservatives are simply retarded Liberals

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:13:45 2015 No.6582275 >>6581995 There are many forms of corporatism, the fascist variety is only one.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:16:20 2015 No.6582281 File: 67 KB, 600x600, snail pepe.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6582274 >if you're conservative you're either stupid or selfish

Anonymous Sat May 23 22:20:15 2015 No.6582294

>>6582274
>because the fundamental thing you cannot go against in our society is the notion of equality, between genders, societies, civilizations, classes, etc. A conservative person would not dare to go against equality
Not only do plenty of people do this but they make a great deal of money off it. The "Political Incorrect Guide to X" books are a great example.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:23:18 2015 No.6582306 >>6582272 Really? How so? Leviathan is mainly a justification of Monarchy over Aristocracies or pure Democracies. What we have currently is a democratic state in its final throes. Watch as it becomes a monarchy

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:24:51 2015 No.6582311 >>6582281 Everyone is selfish, the Conservatives I was referring to are just powerful as well. I harbor no ill will towards them. Do I need to add that hordes of Leftists are stupid as well?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:25:46 2015 No.6582313 >>6582311 I've just often heard the position 'if you're intelligent then you have to be left-wing'

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:25:51 2015 No.6582314 >>6582306 It was never even remotely a democracy. Madison knew 20 years after Independence that it was a failure

Anonymous Sat May 23 22:27:52 2015 No.6582319

I've been of the opinion for a few years now that a cycle between oppression and liberty is normal and maybe even healthy for a society.

Oppression ---> Revolt ---> Liberty ---> [Complacency, Corruption, whatever] ---> Back to oppression and so on.

Stagnation into any one system is possibly harmful in the long term.

Anonymous Sat May 23 22:28:17 2015 No.6582321

>>6582313
I don't think that, I just think that on average the Left is smarter than the right. If you're intelligent and have any knowledge of history you will be incapable of being Left or Right wing, neither of them ever accomplish anything, if it seems they do there is a power somewhere in the story that is profiting from the situation

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:30:33 2015 No.6582330 >>6582319 +1

Anonymous Sat May 23 22:30:49 2015 No.6582331
File: 87 KB, 643x900, WMI_12_11_11_70x50_594.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6582306
Well, Hobbes does allow for the sovereign to not be a single individual, but says that is structurally less stable. It's apparent this thesis doesn't stand up to the fact that after wealth increases allow a majority of populations to excersise political will, democracies where they can be placated by voting have far greater longevity. Add on work on the democratic peace and the fact that democracies are more stable now than 70 or 170 years ago and the idea that the sovereign must be a literal single body politic is one that has been falsified.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:31:28 2015 No.6582336 >>6582306 >Watch as it becomes a monarchy Out of all the different forms a state can take why would you think Monarchy would emerge out of our present social system?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:31:41 2015 No.6582337 >>6582319 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_five_regimes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqaddimah#Sociology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Study_of_History#Genesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:37:49 2015 No.6582350 >>6582337 Never actually paid enough attention to political philosophy to know that I was making a semi-coherent argument. Neat.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:43:32 2015 No.6582366 >>6582336 That is exactly why. Because it is the least expected.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:49:33 2015 No.6582383 File: 67 KB, 426x341, 1366990617161.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6582337 >Plato being mentioned Instant orgasm

Anonymous Sat May 23 22:49:41 2015 No.6582385
File: 512 KB, 1498x805, anaconda-nicki-minaj-4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

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>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:50:28 2015 No.6582388 >>6582385 I actually laughed at Boner Condoner. Thank you.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 22:52:54 2015 No.6582395 >>6582008 Hahaha he really is /pol/ incarnate, I have never seen such a smug person

Anonymous Sat May 23 22:59:10 2015 No.6582407

>>6579770
Pretty much this. Humans are inherently communal beings and are hard-wired to experience things like empathy, not to mention we have feelings of disgust or anger when we see people do things we don't like and feel disgust or shame when we engage in certain activities. All of these emotions make us better suited to working in a group.

How the social dynamic develops will largely depend on the individuals in the community. We have language to communicate for a reason.

Hobbes is pretty outdated. We know so much more about human beings thanks to things like evolution, genetics, archaeology, and other disciplines that have developed long after Hobbes was alive.

Let's also not forget that the state of nature is a conjectural state that may not have existed. Hobbes would have had pretty much no knowledge of how humans functioned in Mesolithic or Neolithic eras/cultures.

Anonymous Sat May 23 23:02:34 2015 No.6582423
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>>6582008
>contrarian views
>57 members
>not even recognized by uni
>public outcry and vice documentary

I would tell you to fuck off, but this only confirms what he's saying

Anonymous Sun May 24 03:15:57 2015 No.6583213

>>6582407

Communities naturally tend towards sovereign powers and hierarchy, Hobbes was wrong about the state of nature when applied to individuals, but you'll be hard pressed to find a people who doesn't at least have a chief to exercise some sovereignty. The kicker is that we don't look to our leviathan by "reason" like Hobbes thought, our impulse for it comes instinctively. One good point he does make is that his schema can be applied to countries and empires in a time without international law, kingdoms in the past were in that "state of nature" when compared to each other, though obviously diplomacy was more of an option than Hobbes would admit.

Anonymous Sun May 24 05:01:59 2015 No.6583476
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>>6576537

I love how always this same time every year, children passing their college philiosphy and political philosophy courses, always seem to flock here. They think they read a book, went to lectures, that they know something profound.

In reality, you are young, you haven't read enough, or probably never will. You are suffering from, "the last thing I read is truth" phase. You are suffering from this because you haven't read enough. Therefore, everything looks like a good argument, or truth.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 08:10:21 2015 No.6583819 File: 24 KB, 260x225, 1431559518724.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6583476 tips fedora

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 08:36:51 2015 No.6583851 >>6582008 >>6582395 >>6582423 Have you seen this? Same guy who organised it. It's fucking hilarious. The entire time it's on the verge of mass chimpout. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGyfmhFobdM

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 08:54:35 2015 No.6583877 >>6583213 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clastres#On_power.2C_coercion_and_chieftainship

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 09:02:12 2015 No.6583889 >>6579133 It's not funny, it just brings back painful memories for me.

Anonymous Sun May 24 09:10:45 2015 No.6583921

>>6579770
It isn't 'all kill all' so much as 'no one cares about anyone.' Think about a herd of water buffalo. When one is attacked by lions and escapes, it only gets help from its herd insofar as its herd needs to in order to get the lions to leave it alone. Often enough, even if it survives, the herd does nothing for it but leave it behind to die. This is the Tao of the herd; this is the law of the state of nature.

It is precisely at the point where commitment between individuals moves beyond this absolutely minimal and unspoken (unspeakable, as animals cannot speak) agreement that true government emerges and we leave the state of nature. When the law is spoken and enforced by the tribe, even if it is attributed to a god, it is already out of the state of nature.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 09:45:02 2015 No.6584031 File: 50 KB, 543x960, over 9000 fedoras.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6583819 >implying that he's wrong ur the fedora m8

Anonymous Sun May 24 10:03:45 2015 No.6584078

>>6583921
Except humans aren't buffalo. We can speak or communicate from the beginning.

Just face it, Hobbes didn't know that much and was limited by the knowledge of his time. He's outdated and irrelevant and several anons have shown that to be the case:

>>6579770
>>6582407
>>6583877

This is the problem with a lot of philosophers. We know so much more now and should turn to more recent knowledge to formulate our political philosophies instead of beating the dead horse of the past.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 10:08:01 2015 No.6584086 >>6584078 >We can speak or communicate from the beginning. Are you implying that lower primates and all of our evolutionary predecessors had the capacity for speech?

Anonymous Sun May 24 10:14:06 2015 No.6584098

>>6583877
>he argued that South American Indian chieftains were powerless chiefs; they were chosen on the basis of their oratorical talent.
Just going from this section, his analysis doesn't really seem to account for the complexities of the way power actually manifests itself in societies. The orator may be chosen as a leader without any reference to power, but a leader contra power by definition. Trying to separate the notion of power from the notion of a political leader seems I'll advised, tbh.
>they give and receive each independently
Perhaps subjectively, but objectively, the same bodies are performing both functions and one body is exerting more than others in the group.

I'm not convinced. Please do more than post Wikipedia articles when trying to make nuanced arguments.

Anonymous Sun May 24 14:37:34 2015 No.6584927
File: 2.22 MB, 1600x900, do you feel lucky cuck.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6582008

Feel free to ignore my post but as a member of a police family I find these stormfags laughable. I was an EMT for 2 years and I've been a firefighter for 3 years now. Being a first responder requires intense training and watching these college kids play policeman just makes me want to scream. Come to my town and patrol the streets for a night, I guarantee you these fags would be in the hospital with lacerations and gun shot wounds within 4 hours of walking a "beat."

This shit is not a game. Universities really are like little bubbles that shield these kids from the real world.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 18:11:27 2015 No.6585963 >>6584927 >b-but muh flashlight

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 18:53:22 2015 No.6586119 >>6576537 >Hobbes >fascism You're reading it wrong m8 Anyway, Hobbes and Spinoza were nearly right about everything politically.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 19:01:30 2015 No.6586151 >>6577872 People before state (archaics we still can examine) are not killing each other. They live in peace.

Anonymous Sun May 24 19:33:32 2015 No.6586250

>>6582274
>>6582313
If you're intelligent you don't identify with either the contemporary left or right, neither of them are based in any actual philosophy, they're just bastardisations of original schools of thought which took specific principals that were made to be part of a cohesive whole, and amplified them to be their focus.

Take, for example, the modern left and compare them to the ideas of their founder, Karl Marx. While the modern left is a huge advocate of big government, Marx is the ultimate example of someone against big government and for the power of the people, in fact, Marx lines up more (in terms of specific day to day policies if not actual ideology) with the libertarians. Marx, also, is a strong supporter of the people's need to bear arms.

Personally, I'm a royalist, and I've gotten a reputation for being infinitely more well read on all aspects of philosophy, so I can get away with it. Even if people find my ideas about certain people being born superior to others (although not based on race, as I don't really believe that and nothing could save me if I did) offensive; I can just name drop great philosophers who agree with me and they do back off since it's not a fair fight.

But yeah, posters here are right, God deliver the regular guy who goes more extreme than a reserved, "conservative on economics, liberal on social matters" ideology.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 24 22:01:07 2015 No.6586724 >>6579770 nye

Anonymous Mon May 25 00:13:17 2015 No.6587153

Everything you need to know about peace was discovered during the cold war, assure mutual destruction and no one will make the first move.

Concentrating authority and hoping it falls it good hands is silly. What you actually need to achieve peace is to disperse power, a gun in each hand, every hand trained, any individual who becomes an agressor will be hopelessly outnumbered on the spot.

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/lit/ - Literature