What are some books that will help me cope with living in a global neoliberal capitalist world?

File: 14 KB, 340x361, D6vF09F.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Fri May 22 12:02:08 2015 No.6575009 [Reply] [Original]

What are some books that will help me cope with living in a global neoliberal capitalist world?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 12:03:32 2015 No.6575019 >>6575009 You're not supposed to cope, you're suppose to suffer until you either revolt or break.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 12:03:33 2015 No.6575020 The Bible

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 12:05:25 2015 No.6575033 >>6575009 Tell me your preferred anti-capitalist ideology and I'll suggest you some books on it.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 12:21:02 2015 No.6575090 >>6575033 I'm partial to AnCom and AnSynd, although I just identify as a socialist maybe libertarian socialist if pushed.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 12:21:16 2015 No.6575091 >>6575033 I am gravitating towards the Left Hoxhaist tendency of Marxism

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 12:21:49 2015 No.6575092 >>6575009 faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggg

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 12:24:46 2015 No.6575106 >>6575091 That's a thing?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 12:26:04 2015 No.6575111 >>6575009 This post reeks of pseudo-intellectualism from tumblr

Anonymous Fri May 22 12:48:25 2015 No.6575191

>>6575090
Anarcho-Syndicalism by Rudolf Rocker
The Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin
Fields, Factories and Workshops by Kropotkin
Anarchism and Other Essays by Goldman
The Right to Be Greedy
>>6575091
Tough one:
Enver Hoxha: Selected Works
Selected Works of Mao Tse-tung
The Foundations of Leninism by Stalin
Fundamentals of Marxism–Leninism
Dialectical and Historical Materialism by Stalin
What Is to Be Done? by Lenin
The State and Revolution by Lenin

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 12:54:00 2015 No.6575213 File: 64 KB, 640x186, 001.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6575091

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 14:17:06 2015 No.6575558 >>6575009 drugs & alcohol

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 15:36:57 2015 No.6575865 bumplit

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 15:37:44 2015 No.6575870 >>6575111 I think people from tumblr are the people he is against

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 15:39:35 2015 No.6575877 >>6575033 Fascism

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 15:45:16 2015 No.6575902 File: 62 KB, 1109x695, 1427256129734-1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6575091 I'll sell you some bunkers

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 15:48:50 2015 No.6575913 >>6575902 Kek. I mean this is eurocentric for not including Juche and the Khmer Rouge ideology, which would have been great contestants in their own right, but still, kek.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 16:18:31 2015 No.6575995 >>6575877 Only left-wing please. >>6575913 From European perspective, Stalinism was far more disastrous, despite Hoxhaist being pretty much a continuation of Stalinism.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:15:24 2015 No.6576434 >>6575191 Any good fiction for a libertarian-socialist/anarchist?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:18:34 2015 No.6576449 >>6575009 you could go back to reddit, effeminate imbecile

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:20:08 2015 No.6576454 >>6575009 >What are some books that will help me cope with living in a global neoliberal capitalist world? The black book of communism. Puts thing in perspective.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:32:22 2015 No.6576497 >>6575995 >left-wing how are you defining that?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:37:21 2015 No.6576515 >>6576434 Ever read Alber Cossery?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:49:08 2015 No.6576556 File: 71 KB, 1174x275, Marx1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6575009 >being a Marxist >2015

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:49:51 2015 No.6576561 The Handbook for the young generations from Raoul Vanegeim

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 18:58:47 2015 No.6576602 >>6576556 great analogy. just wonderful. yes, that's exactly the same. so glad you saved your own sweet ownage as "Marx1.png," really looking forward to "Marx2.png" and "HermanHansHoppe.png" or whatever bullshit you have in that folder.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:02:20 2015 No.6576617 >>6576556 This sums up americans.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:03:01 2015 No.6576621 >>6575213 kek Ismail's the main guy

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 19:03:07 2015 No.6576623 >>6576602 Thanks for the ad hominem.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:27:09 2015 No.6576943 >>6576623 I mean that's nearly all the image is, so tit for tat.

>>	ΟΥΤΙΣ Fri May 22 20:32:32 2015 No.6576963 >>6576556 And now we have astronauts going to the moon.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:34:15 2015 No.6576970 Isnt there an image floating around of recommended starter level fascist books? I might pick up a marxist one as well, just so I can understand the main ideologies before choosing sides

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:36:38 2015 No.6576980 >>6576970 >ideology

Anonymous Fri May 22 20:39:34 2015 No.6576992

>>6575009
Read sceptically and nihilistically inclined lads until you realise there's nothing to 'cope' with except for your habit of comparing reality to fictional wonderlands.

Then do away with the fiction once and for all and start carving out an existence in the world.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:40:15 2015 No.6576997 >>6575009 Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:40:45 2015 No.6577000 >>6576963 Thanks to Capitalism.

Anonymous Fri May 22 20:41:04 2015 No.6577002
File: 27 KB, 500x500, 1411655767551.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6576970
>just so I can understand the main ideologies before choosing sides
Turns out that if you learn about them enough you will never choose because they all kind of suck.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:41:18 2015 No.6577004 >>6576970 >starter level fascist books Impossible; real fascists were anti-intellectual (i.e. Just follow your feels)

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:42:04 2015 No.6577007 >>6576556 If you build your bridge like a plane with a parachute pack inside, that will work. So in a way this picture is accurate if you understand what bridge is supposed to mean.

Anonymous Fri May 22 20:42:47 2015 No.6577010
File: 58 KB, 495x600, 495px-David_Hume.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6577004
Blatantly following your feels is more intellectually honest than creating an obscurantist maze to trick yourself and others into believing that you're doing something other than following your feels.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:43:14 2015 No.6577014 >>6577000 State-funded military research is hardly unique to capitalism. Actually the Soviet got in space first.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:45:20 2015 No.6577019 >>6577010 This. Reason is only good for doing actions, not deciding what to do.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:45:45 2015 No.6577022 >>6577014 >the Soviet got in space first. Thanks to Capitalism.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:49:50 2015 No.6577038 >>6577022 Thanks to Feudalism

>>	newti !!BglvqPaJ/9X Fri May 22 20:55:08 2015 No.6577068 >>6576963 astronauts don't jump off buildings in order to go to the moon.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:56:41 2015 No.6577073 >>6576434 The Dispossessed by Ursula K Le Guin

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:57:16 2015 No.6577075 >>6577022 well, thanks to "market pressures" to compete with the american space program, so we're all wrong in our own special way.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 20:57:42 2015 No.6577077 >>6576454 I hope you're kidding, that book is quite awful. Besides, 100 mil killed is more accurate for capitalism than communism.

>>	ΟΥΤΙΣ Fri May 22 21:04:13 2015 No.6577115 >>6575009 Hegel will show you the way, his work on alienation is superb

>>	ΟΥΤΙΣ Fri May 22 21:05:15 2015 No.6577124 >>6577019 Kant kind of disagrees

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 21:13:47 2015 No.6577159 >>6576556 >all this leftist butthurt Can anybody link me to information on an actual, successful communist country?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 21:14:03 2015 No.6577160 >>6577124 Yea. But he's Kant.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 21:30:41 2015 No.6577228 >>6577159 That's an oxymoron my friend. Even the tiny communities in America and the Israeli kibbutz based on collectivism collapsed due to the tragedy of the commons.

Anonymous Fri May 22 21:35:05 2015 No.6577250

>>6577159
Cuba has achieved great social standards relative to similar countries surrounding it (comparable to the wealthiest countries in cases like literacy, life expectancy, etc). Pretty impressive considering all the things going against the poor island nation

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 21:42:05 2015 No.6577271 File: 1.96 MB, 4000x3549, 1382070157345.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6576970

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 21:44:13 2015 No.6577279 >>6577250 kek, bad example m8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

Anonymous Fri May 22 22:10:29 2015 No.6577416

>>6577279
All countries have human rights violations. Cuba is no exception.

As long a small political or economic class is in actual control over the social life of working class majority, human rights abuses and all manner of inhuman atrocities will be committed in the name one flag or another.

That said, Cuba has undoubtedly shown the impressive things a small poor island nation can achieve by taking things into their own hands, even with the most powerful empire in human history who's quite hostile towards it and imposes brutal economic sanctions right next door. Make no mistake that the hostility the U.S. shows toward Cuba has nothing to do with a lack of democracy or human rights, and a lot to do with it setting an example of what's possible for a society to achieve when it takes matters into its own hands (even when this socialism is heavily compromised and imperfect)

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 22:13:01 2015 No.6577430 >>6577124 And Schopenhauer completely made his ethical system irrelevant.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 22:15:22 2015 No.6577444 >>6577271 >Pat Buchanan It's sad if this is the sort of thing conservatives view as essential literature.

Anonymous Fri May 22 22:50:55 2015 No.6577609

>>6577416
How can you just excuse the fact that this humble island nation routinely jails political dissidents? There is no discussion in Cuba, there is no internet in Cuba, there is no real individual freedom in Cuba. I don't doubt that the U.S. has ulterior motives in imposing sanctions against the country, but that doesn't excuse the total nightmare of a society that the Cuban government is operating. It would be a terrible place to live and is not my idea of a successful country by any measure, economically, socially, politically, etc.

Anonymous Fri May 22 23:25:48 2015 No.6577730
File: 134 KB, 653x1024, 1429146507673.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6575020

This.

>>6575033

My ideal society is Great Britain from 1900 - 1913 before the Great War destroyed Western Civilization. I'm one of those fags obsessed with morals, empire, nationalism, common decency, aristocracy, imperialism, Christianity and all that stuff. Don't really care about the almighty dollar which Thatcher and Reagan shoved down our throats.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 22 23:31:43 2015 No.6577760 >>6577730 But why was that version of western civilsation worth saving? It destroyed itself willingly.

Anonymous Fri May 22 23:40:45 2015 No.6577802

>>6577760

Not exactly. The imperial system would have survived the First World War had the United Sates either:

A: Stayed out and let Europe exhaust themselves resulting in fair peace without the side effects that came with the 1919 armstice and the treaty. British and German Empires survive... Germany most likely tries to defend tsarist regime in Russia and get rid of the communists.

B: Somehow followed Theodore Roosevelt's rhetoric and joined in early on crushing the Germans before they could let Lenin back into Russia and start the revolution.

It's kind of amazing that had Woodrow Wilson lost the election in 1916 (which he only won by a slim percentage) we'd be living in a totally different world. The end result of the war that we are faced with today is because of a fluke really, that fluke being Wilson's poor health and judgement.

Also Germany circa 1895 - 1912 probably had the best quality of life of any civilization to date.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 00:33:02 2015 No.6578046 >>6576556 How are you this dumb?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 00:34:07 2015 No.6578053 >>6577159 Communism has to either exist everywhere or nowhere. This would be comparable to saying during feudalism, "where are the successful liberal capitalist nations?" Transcending the market cannot coincide with being in the market.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 00:38:12 2015 No.6578063 >>6575009 Read some fiction that makes fun of its results. J G Ballard's Super-Cannes comes to mind

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 00:44:33 2015 No.6578079 Arendt Agamben Negri Foucault Then find friends to talk about above with. Don't be surprised if the prospect of fundamental shifts dwindles the more you think and attack.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 00:52:07 2015 No.6578099 File: 23 KB, 295x450, Liberal_Fascism_(cover).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6575877 >>6575995

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:04:32 2015 No.6578737 >>6575009 >books that will help me cope... With that attitude you're gonna stay in your personal bubble and any "ideology" whatsoever will just be a commodity with which to define one's personality or "lifestyle".

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:09:54 2015 No.6578745 >>6575009 stiglitz is kinda calming for that. Jared Diamond was for me in 2001 but I think a 14 year old is more easily duped into his lullabies.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:21:15 2015 No.6578769 >ctrl f >no accelerationism http://www.urbanomic.com/pub_accelerate.php intensify the inherent contradictions of capital by GETTING A LOT OF IT SPENDING THAT SHIT ON COCAINE AND WHORES

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:40:08 2015 No.6578793 >>6578079 Sorry but Negri can go fuck off. What the fuck is a multitude and what does he have to be so optimistic about??

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:42:17 2015 No.6578797 >>6575191 >No Bakunin the fuck u thinking

Anonymous Sat May 23 05:43:19 2015 No.6578799

>>6578769
Accelerationism is just a way to not resist while having the feeling of resisting.
Neoliberalism has no contradictions, it is a system that works; it is not an ideology, it is rather a type of rationality that is today more and more practiced.
And that's why it is all the more necessary to actively resist and sabotage it.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:44:41 2015 No.6578800 >>6576970 >implying one doesn't convert before reading the sacred texts

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:44:51 2015 No.6578801 >>6575111 you're an idiot

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:46:06 2015 No.6578804 >>6578769 intellectual excuse to do nothing at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:50:06 2015 No.6578808 >>6575111 If by tumblr you mean the SJWs, then please don't confuse them with leftists. Actually you might say that tumble is the response to TINA. they've abandoned all hope of class war and instead have taken up naive authoritarianism.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 05:52:31 2015 No.6578817 >>6577073 seconding this. While it's a sort of utopian description of how anarchism/full-communism would work, it's not naive enough to acknowledge the social hierarchies that plague leftism.

>>	G 0 D B L 3 ß !zR/LhJxu0Q Sat May 23 06:02:39 2015 No.6578839 >all these people ruining their lives by continually immersing themselves in some falsified (not in the Analytic sense) semi-religion under the name of "class praxis"

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:12:14 2015 No.6578852 >>6577077 You only think it's awful because you're delusional commie scum. >Besides, 100 mil killed is more accurate for capitalism than communism. Haha, I'm waiting for your proof

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:14:13 2015 No.6578853 >>6578852 Not him, but start here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire and work your way in. See you in a few years

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:16:20 2015 No.6578859
File: 100 KB, 960x801, 1426965562416.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6577416
>That said, Cuba has undoubtedly shown the impressive things a small poor island nation can achieve by taking things into their own hands,
What?

Cuba used to be the richest country in latin america. On a per capita basis, it was richer than Finland, Japan, Greece and Spain.

This is "Cuba is better nowadays than it was before the revolution" is blatantly false and utter communist propaganda. The Cuban revolution turned a thriving nation into one of the worst shitholes on earth.

http://muchow.dk/ttrttc/?p=305

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:18:09 2015 No.6578861

>>6578853
Are you serious? An accidental fire in a factory which caused around 100 casualties is "proof" that capitalism killed 100 million people?

How does that even compare with crimes committed under "communist" regimes?

At the height of Stalin's great purge, roughly 1000 people were executed - EVERY DAY.

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:21:26 2015 No.6578869

>>6578861
I said start there, not finish there. The fire may have been accidental, but that those women died is an entirely predictable and systematic conclusion extractable from capitalist system. JUST as systematic and organized as Stalin's purge, but maybe harder to see for you if you are willing to forgive locking 100 women in a factory so they won't take breaks as "shit happens." So how much do you really care about human life? or is it just numbers to you, and the highest one wins?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:23:21 2015 No.6578873 >>6576556 False analogy.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:24:33 2015 No.6578875 >>6576497 Common consensus and critical examination of policies in fascist states.

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:25:48 2015 No.6578877

>>6578869
>I said start there, not finish there. The fire may have been accidental, but that those women died is an entirely predictable and systematic conclusion extractable from capitalist system.
Oh please.

That's like saying that Tchernobyl was deliberate.

>JUST as systematic and organized as Stalin's purge,
Of course not. You said it yourself, it was accidental.

Fires happen all the time. Are they all caused by greedy capitalists?

> So how much do you really care about human life?
That's rich coming from a commie, whose ideology caused the deaths of a hundred million people in a century.

I should be the one asking this question. How much do YOU care about human life? Isn't 100 million dead bodies enough?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:27:56 2015 No.6578880 >>6578877 thank you

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:30:03 2015 No.6578884

>>6577730
>My ideal society is Great Britain from 1900 - 1913 before the Great War destroyed Western Civilization. I'm one of those fags obsessed with morals, empire, nationalism, common decency, aristocracy, imperialism, Christianity and all that stuff. Don't really care about the almighty dollar which Thatcher and Reagan shoved down our throats.
Neither left-wing nor anti-capitalist. Pretty much reactionary.

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:30:18 2015 No.6578886

>>6578861
>>6578877
Fires are not an intrinsic property of buildings. They happen when there's no investment into keeping them secure. But from capitalist standpoint the investment is rational only when it produces profit. As long as the consequences of the fire event don't overshadow the profit, letting such accidents happen is a sensible choice.

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:30:36 2015 No.6578887

>>6578877
maybe you can't read? But I sad the fire was accidental. But they were deliberately locked in that factory to prevent them from taking breaks. That their taking breaks is unacceptable and forcing them to not take breaks in the name of profit is not accidental. Its deliberate and it isn't an isolated incident. In any case, I'm done responding to you if you refuse to look more on your own. I'm not an encyclopedia, but if you were actually in the mood to be possibly convinced, you wouldn't be dismissing me so casually. You aren't the type who can hold a fair conversation. You ask for proof that can't be given under practical constraints then barely take the time to think about what IS provided. See you in hell capitalist pig

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:32:02 2015 No.6578889

>>6578886
>Fires are not an intrinsic property of buildings. They happen when there's no investment into keeping them secure.
Oh please, so now every single case of a fire is the entire fault of the person who owns the building?

>But from capitalist standpoint the investment is rational only when it produces profit.
How the hell is burning down your factory and killing 100 of your workers profitable?

> As long as the consequences of the fire event don't overshadow the profit, letting such accidents happen is a sensible choice.
As I said, how the heck is it profitable?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:33:06 2015 No.6578891 >>6577271 >Hobbes' Leviathan >aristocratic/elitist How about fucking no. But then again, the selection of political philosophy is really lacking so I'm guessing it isn't the chart maker's strong point.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:33:51 2015 No.6578893 >>6578889 Wow you're not even trying anymore. Either you gave up on your troll or you gave up on reading all the words in a sentence. Could you really be so worked up that you can't be bothered to re read before responding?

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:36:04 2015 No.6578895

>>6578887
>But they were deliberately locked in that factory to prevent them from taking breaks
That was indeed a bad decision. And I decry it.

Good thing we live in a country where free speech is tolerated. If this had happened in a communist country and you had complained, you would've been shot.

>That their taking breaks is unacceptable and forcing them to not take breaks in the name of profit is not accidental.
It was indeed tragic and unacceptable. Good thing business practices have changed.

>Its deliberate and it isn't an isolated incident
Of course it was an isolated incident.

>In any case, I'm done responding to you if you refuse to look more on your own
I'm willing. But so far you haven't been very convincing. A single example of a factory fire is not exactly the same as the forced starvation of tens of millions in China, don't you agree?

>I'm not an encyclopedia, but if you were actually in the mood to be possibly convinced, you wouldn't be dismissing me so casually
I'm not dismissing you, I'm pointing out how piss poor your argumentation is.

>You aren't the type who can hold a fair conversation.
Ah yes, I'm a filthy bourgeois etc etc..

>. You ask for proof that can't be given under practical constraints then barely take the time to think about what IS provided.
I can provide you plenty of proof of massacres which took place under communist regimes.

Why can't you do the same for massacres which took place under capitalist regimes? Because there aren't any?

> See you in hell capitalist pig
See ya.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:37:05 2015 No.6578898 >>6578893 Stop doding the question you commie scum. How is burning down your factory and killing your workers profitable?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:37:06 2015 No.6578899 >>6578895 I'm afraid you've been troled, my friend. If you can't tell, it means you've been spending too much time here

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:38:54 2015 No.6578902

>>6578895
The reason I can't show you massacres is because there are comparatively less. Let it be so. But what you are not understanding is that outright orders, force, and blatant action are not the only ways of producing systematic and orderly outcomes. If you see triangle shirtwaist factory as an isolated incident, you need to give reading work more critical of capitalism a serious honest try.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:39:05 2015 No.6578903 >>6578899 I don't think so. I genuinely think that there are commies browsing /lit/, who think that a factory fire is as dramatic as the holodomor.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:39:10 2015 No.6578904 File: 1.99 MB, 600x450, fresh oc.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6578899 Or perhaps he actually needs to spend more time on here

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:39:30 2015 No.6578906

>>6578889
As I already implied, it is profitable because you don't have to invest into maintaining the security of the building.
The statics of fire accidents, death rates, health issues, etc... are not evenly spread across the globe. There's a recognizable pattern of multiple causes, some of them stemming from capitalist rationality.

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:40:21 2015 No.6578908

>>6578902
>The reason I can't show you massacres is because there are comparatively less.
By "comparatively less", you probably mean "next to none".

>But what you are not understanding is that outright orders, force, and blatant action are not the only ways of producing systematic and orderly outcomes
Funny, because that's what you're advocating for you filthy commie.

> If you see triangle shirtwaist factory as an isolated incident, you need to give reading work more critical of capitalism a serious honest try.
I'm willing to bet that more factory disasters happened in the Eastern Bloc than in the Western bloc during the 20th century.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:40:51 2015 No.6578909 >>6578903 >I can't see things as part of a larger orderly system and connect various dots

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:42:07 2015 No.6578912

>>6578906
>As I already implied, it is profitable because you don't have to invest into maintaining the security of the building.
No.

You have to prove to me that the cost of repairing the factory, hiring new workers and paying for all the damage done is cheaper than maintaining the building.

>The statics of fire accidents, death rates, health issues, etc... are not evenly spread across the globe.
Agreed.

They're a lot less frequent in the capitalist west.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:43:07 2015 No.6578914 >>6578909 You aren't connecting any dots. You're imagining things. You are delusional.

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:45:02 2015 No.6578916

>>6578912
What you have to prove is the myth of the rational capitalist who actually calculates those things and to whom they matter. What actually exists is a group of people who act on the ways the system makes rational. Those considerations are not rational in themselves. You do know there was a world without capitalism in the distant "past" don't you? The rules were different then.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:47:14 2015 No.6578918 >>6578912 We're not talking about our precious West here, but about the so-called "third world" countries that feel the exploitative effect of Western capitalism the most.

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:48:59 2015 No.6578922

>>6578916
>What you have to prove is the myth of the rational capitalist who actually calculates those things and to whom they matter
It's pretty obvious to anyone with common sense that burning down your own factories is not profitable.

>What actually exists is a group of people who act on the ways the system makes rational
There is no "system". Capitalism is just freedom applied to trade.

>You do know there was a world without capitalism in the distant "past" don't you? The rules were different then.
Yeah, and the world was a shithole back then.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:49:26 2015 No.6578925 >>6578904 R A R E A R E

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:50:13 2015 No.6578926

>>6578918
>We're not talking about our precious West here, but about the so-called "third world" countries that feel the exploitative effect of Western capitalism the most.
Third world countries are not necessarily capitalist. Most of them actually sided with marxism following decolonization.

The few countries which embraced capitalism do rather well today (south korea, singapore, hong kong,...) They're actually pretty good examples of how free market capitalism, if done right, can transform your country from third world to first world in a single generation.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:50:24 2015 No.6578927 >>6578922 Lol its a shithole now but you don't travel I guess. Anyway thanks for the head up. Your definition of capitalism was all I needed. Bye bye

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:51:26 2015 No.6578928 >>6578926 Read some wallerstein. Doubt you'd get it though.

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:52:10 2015 No.6578930

>>6578927
>Lol its a shithole now but you don't travel I guess
I do travel quite a lot, actually.

>Anyway thanks for the head up. Your definition of capitalism was all I needed. Bye bye
Typical coward. Running away after being btfo'd by logic and arguments.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:53:02 2015 No.6578932 >>6578926 I'm not talking so much about capitalism in the third world itself but about the capitalist relation between the first world and the third world.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:53:37 2015 No.6578934 >>6578928 Great. Another jewish new york marxist who went to columbia. I'll give it a read, but I'm pretty sure what to expect.

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:54:38 2015 No.6578936

>>6578932
>I'm not talking so much about capitalism in the third world itself but about the capitalist relation between the first world and the third world.
The introduction of capitalism in the third world has led to a great increase in prosperity. Hundreds of millions of chinese and indian people have escaped poverty thanks to free market capitalism in the past decade.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:56:10 2015 No.6578939 >>6578936 >I refuse to acknowledge just how poor most people in India and China are. Even by your own standards you are myopic. There's a difference between GDP and the standards of how people live generally you know.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 06:56:30 2015 No.6578941 From one pro-revolutionary to another We need to relax with the "neoliberal" shtick. Capitalism is capitalism is capitalism That is all

Anonymous Sat May 23 06:58:02 2015 No.6578943

>>6578939
>There's a difference between GDP and the standards of how people live generally you know.
The two are highly correlated.

Bar a few exceptions (oil-driven economies, for instance), gdp per capita is directly linked with standards of living.

As for the sad state of most indians and chinese, it is the result of decades of socialist planning. Only since China and India liberalized their economies have they started seeing economic growth.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:02:38 2015 No.6578953 >>6578943 Do you know the difference between a fact and an interpretation?

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:02:57 2015 No.6578957

>>6578941
On the contrary. We need to recognize that there are different types of capitalisms and adapt our perception to the current situation, instead of continue talking about "the same logic of capital" with its "internal contradictions".
Neoliberal capitalism functions differently than what we had before the late 70s. It is now based on the model of enterprise, and it aggressively extends market logic to previously non-economic domains, deep into our own way of living and thinking.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:04:32 2015 No.6578959 >>6578953 >Do you know the difference between a fact and an interpretation? Sure. Why do you ask?

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:07:44 2015 No.6578965

>>6578959
Its really difficult to have productive discussion with people who don't. People who don't often don't realize the full force of arguments given against them because when an argument against a certain interpretation of a collection of statements that are ostensibly facts, they end up thinking the people giving them are insane and that they just want to deny reality. I'm just wondering how well you distinguish between those. When you say China and India's poverty is the result of socialist planning, do you consider it a fact or an interpretation?

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:09:22 2015 No.6578967

>>6578957
Neoliberalism is a particular set of ideological coordinates. Capital accumulation occurs the same way it always has. Neoliberalism is a result of post-war changes in material conditions, but not in the process of capital accumulation. Opening the door to accepting that there are "different capitalisms" when there isn't and there is only one allows us to play a game where we fight to prefer one variant over another. No, trash it all

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:11:32 2015 No.6578968 >>6575009 >he suffers from the delusion that his opinions are counter culture

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:12:10 2015 No.6578971

>>6578965
>Its really difficult to have productive discussion with people who don't.
I agree.

I've been trying to engage you in discussion for the past few posts but all you've done is criticize me or go off on irrelevant tangents.

>When you say China and India's poverty is the result of socialist planning, do you consider it a fact or an interpretation?
Are you serious?

Of course it's fact. Are you going to deny that China and India had socialist planned economies following ww2?

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:12:20 2015 No.6578972

>>6578967
Not who you're responding to, but trash it all doesn't do much for me. I don't like when its made to sound like a veil we can just take off at will. We really do have to understand nuances here. A big revolution just isn't coming and we shouldn't hope for one. If what the person you're responding to is right, (and I think he is) then there's no reason to expect such a revolution to be anything but bullshit.

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:15:03 2015 No.6578978

>>6578967
>Opening the door to accepting that there are "different capitalisms" allows us to play a game where we fight to prefer one variant over another.
Sure, but that's not the point. The point is to understand better the subtleties of current situation in order to know the strategic points of resistance.

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:15:11 2015 No.6578979

>>6578971
No see you're making that mistake again. That China and India had socialized economies might be your fact. That those economies led to widespread poverty might be an interpretation. I say might, because x country is socialist is a fact only in a really really weak sense. Right? There's never been a purely socialist capitalist communist what have you country ever, so there has to be more nuance than that. As a general rule, there are many less facts than there are interpretations.

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:16:31 2015 No.6578981

>>6578979
>That China and India had socialized economies might be your fact. That those economies led to widespread poverty might be an interpretation.
It's really not an interpretation.

It's cold hard fact.

You can call facts "interpretations" all day long, in the end you're just making a fool of yourself and it doesn't change the fact that they are cold hard verified facts.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:18:15 2015 No.6578982 >>6578981 How can it be a cold hard fact when those countries were exceptionally impoverished before?

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:20:34 2015 No.6578986

>>6578982
>How can it be a cold hard fact when those countries were exceptionally impoverished before?
What does that change anything?

South Korea and Singapore were exceptionally impoverished too. That didn't stop them from achieving first world status.

The socialist policies of China and India caused those two countries to stagnate, and in the case of China even regress.

Google "hindu rate of growth".

>The Hindu rate of growth is a derogatory term referring to the low annual growth rate of the planned economy of India before the liberalizations of 1991, which stagnated around 3.5% from 1950s to 1980s, while per capita income growth averaged 1.3%.

>The economy of India has been growing at rate of around 6-8% since economic liberalisation began in the 1990s.

Inb4 you claim those numbers to be "interpretation".

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:22:10 2015 No.6578988 >>6578986 You skipped the part where you explain how socialist planning led to poverty that preexisted its implementation

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:23:39 2015 No.6578992

>>6578988
>You skipped the part where you explain how socialist planning led to poverty that preexisted its implementation
It led to poverty by preventing economic growth.

What's so hard to understand?

Imagine there's a burgeoning flower. Imagine I stamp it repeatedly, killing it. Your argument would boil down to "I didn't kill the flower, as it wasn't a flower yet".

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:25:08 2015 No.6578995 >>6578992 OK then I will blame my current poverty on some future event is that ok with you?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 07:26:20 2015 No.6578999 >>6578995 >OK then I will blame my current poverty on some future event is that ok with you? Are you clinically retarded? That is not what I meant at all Godamnit, you aren't helping break the stereotype that leftists have double digit IQs.

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:29:39 2015 No.6579005

>>6578999
You're the one who doesn't seem to understand the flow of time, and that's one of the basics. You're trying to get to to buy a "fact" that is logical impossibility. It seems peachy to you because you aren't aware of how ideologically tainted your facts are. How is it possible that India's poverty was caused by something which hadn't existed yet? Your flower analogy only works if we assume that India had a preexisting capitalist economy being stifled by socialist planning. But that's just not true.

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:33:26 2015 No.6579016

>>6579005
>You're trying to get to to buy a "fact" that is logical impossibility
Socialist policies leading to widespread poverty is only a logical impossibility in the twisted minds of delusional leftists.

> How is it possible that India's poverty was caused by something which hadn't existed yet?
Do you even know how to read? I claimed that India's poverty during the second half of the century was due to its socialist planned economy.

>Your flower analogy only works if we assume that India had a preexisting capitalist economy being stifled by socialist planning. But that's just not true.
No, free market capitalism can thrive even in illiterate feudalistic shitholes : look at South Korea.

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:36:23 2015 No.6579022

>>6579016
But India was poor before it implemented socialist planning. What I'm saying is logically impossible is that socialist planning could have been the cause of poverty that already existed. You're joking right? Like you must actually understand what I'm saying?

An event in 2017 cannot be the cause of a condition now. Same for India's poverty.

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:38:30 2015 No.6579025

>>6579022
>But India was poor before it implemented socialist planning.
What does that have to do with anything?

>What I'm saying is logically impossible is that socialist planning could have been the cause of poverty that already existed.
And that's where you're wrong you braindead faggot.

How do you explain that India's economy boomed when it got rid of socialist central planning in the early 1990s? Coincidence? Divine intervention?

God damnit you're a fucking retard.

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:40:07 2015 No.6579029

>>6578972
No, there's no romantic, Hollywood-style, or even the kind of revolution the old Left used to execute or envision - the one of millions of people in the streets and hanging fat cats and politicians. There is Terror, and there is revolution coming, but it's not going to be a grand rapturous event, but neither is it going to be a gradualist reform project where capital whithers. You can pour water in a glass, and it's true that the water fills gradually, but there is a radical moment where there is no water in the glass, and suddenly there is. A radical moment when the glass isn't quite full, and suddenly, it is.

>>6578978
and how does identifying capitalism as currently in some kind of neoliberalist era empower us to resist, and how so strategically that doesn't amount to struggling for a "different variant" of capitalism, ie resist privatization not with communization, but with fighting for bigger budgets for social welfare programs

Anonymous Sat May 23 07:40:44 2015 No.6579030

>>6579025
Lol this is wild. Like you are actually blinded by ideology. I thought it was just a metaphor but omg lolol. No type of planning or policy can cause something in the past. India was poor before socialist planning. So how did the socialist planning cause India's already existing poverty?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 08:06:19 2015 No.6579078 File: 72 KB, 611x218, ismail.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6576621 <3 ismail

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 08:38:59 2015 No.6579141 >>6579030 >So how did the socialist planning cause India's already existing poverty? Stop strawmanning this hard. I never claimed it did. Socialist planning caused India NOT TO ESCAPE FROM POVERTY IT PREVENTED INDIAN ECONOMIC GROWTH

Anonymous Sat May 23 08:49:16 2015 No.6579167

>>6578769
>intensify the contradictions of capital
somebody hasn't actually read much accelerationist literature, have they?

>>6578804
>>6578799

Right now, Accelerationism seems pretty lazy; I think this is because it has basically just gotten off the ground, and writers are wary of jumping in and saying "HEY LET'S GO OVERTHROW THIS GOVERNMENT", given that Accelerationism seeks to directly address the failures of previous leftism.

Give it some time and we'll see what sort of actionable forces it produces. Action is actually inherent to the theory, after all.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 08:50:44 2015 No.6579170 >>6578769 >http://www.urbanomic.com/pub_accelerate.php Pretty great book, pretty great way to re-read Marx.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 09:46:03 2015 No.6579275 >>6578859 So how did the poor fair in those golden times you speak of?

Anonymous Sat May 23 09:49:31 2015 No.6579283

>>6577609
>routinely jails political dissidents

I know you Murricans have a special something for "free speech" that somehow makes it more important than the actual well-being of people, but in a world running on capitalism like OP described, you cannot afford your (unfortunately) sheep-like population flocking to promises of some Murrican Dream of Wealth and Power and start committing worse crimes on humanity than your silencing of these people's "free speech".

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 09:56:14 2015 No.6579300 >>6578922 >Capitalism is just freedom applied to trade Jesus why do so many people have these absolutely retarded definitions of capitalism that effectively mean nothing?

Anonymous Sat May 23 10:00:34 2015 No.6579307

>>6578877
>>So how much do you really care about human life?
>That's rich coming from a commie, whose ideology caused the deaths of a hundred million people in a century.
Capitalism is based on exploitation.
Currently half the world population is starving and the other half being suicidal because comes out tech gadgets, sports cars, and other adult toys don't make you much happier.
(Yes yes, hyperbole, but you get the point.)

Ultimately it's people being batfuck retarded that makes other people (and themselves) suffer; this most often shows itself through capitalism nowadays because capitalism is ubiquitous; other times it's shown itself through other ideologies, sometimes even ones which were *supposedly* rooted in human well-being such as communism. Ultimately the "ideal" you supposedly follow makes no difference so long as your application of the "ideal" is idiotic.

Once cultural/people problems are fixed in a population, it's most likely that they will move to some sort of communism automatically --full/final communism as defined by e.g. Marx, i.e. encompassing anarchy-- because there would be no need for authority nor money in such a population that's cleansed of typical human errors.

Granted, that never gonna happen and us few hippy-commies might as well kill ourselves because we're literally too good for this humanity.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 10:04:38 2015 No.6579317 >>6578999 >the stereotype that leftists have double digit IQs I think you've got that backwards? The only non-retarded right-wing people I know of seem like either psychopaths or somehow deluded despite intelligence. Of course, I'm biased.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 10:08:00 2015 No.6579327 >>6577159 The Democratic People's Republic of Korea has been extremely successful in maintaining anti-imperialism

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 10:09:01 2015 No.6579329 >>6579327 DPRK is a fascist country though.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 10:10:41 2015 No.6579332 >>6579329 It's state socialist. Fascism is more centrist/corporatist.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 10:12:03 2015 No.6579335 >>6578999 >the stereotype that leftists have double digit IQs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 10:13:32 2015 No.6579338 re: India and socialism/communism Has that anon never heard of the Kerala model? The Communist party's policies in that area led to some of the best development in the country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_model#

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 10:15:21 2015 No.6579342 >>6579329 South Korea is much closer to a fascist country than the north. although i can see where you come from with your claim concerning the north's shitty songun policies (which they've been drifting from lately).

Anonymous Sat May 23 10:16:11 2015 No.6579347
File: 429 KB, 857x483, comrade guwap.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6576556
Actually a decent analogy because the the Wright brothers managed to successfully fly even though people had been failing at it for a long time, and now you can't look up at the sky without seeing planes.

It's merely a matter of time before someone gets it right. Probably just need capitalism to grow just a little more ripe in terms of both technological advancement and untenability.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 11:20:28 2015 No.6579625 >>6575995 >Only left-wing please He thinks left-wing/right-wing actually holds any meaning

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 11:40:18 2015 No.6579714 >>6579141 Oh but you did. >>6579016 >due to >>6578992 >led to >>6578943 >the result of So I strawmanned you how?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 23 16:32:13 2015 No.6580839 >>6575090 lol thats why you want to cope instead of revolting fucking leftcomms

Advanced search
Text to find
Subject [?]Search by post subject. Leave empty for any.
Username [?]Search for user name. Leave empty for any user name.
Tripcode [?]Search for tripcode. Leave empty for any.
Email [?]Search by email. Leave empty for any.
Filename [?]Search by image filename. Leave empty for any.
From Date [?]Enter what date to start searching from. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
To Date [?]Enter what date to start searching until. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
Image hash
Search in	All Posts OPs Only
Deleted posts	Show all posts Show only deleted posts Only show non-deleted posts
Internal posts	Show all posts Show only internal posts Show only archived posts
Order	New posts first Old posts first
Capcode	All Posts Only by Users Only by Mods Only by Admins Only by Developers
Results	Posts Threads
Action	[ Simple ]

/lit/ - Literature