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/lit/ - Literature

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6553003 No.6553003 [Reply] [Original]

Who do you agree with when it comes to humanity and its relation to civilization: Hobbes or Rousseau?

pic unrelated

>> No.6553006

Green

>> No.6553008
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6553008

>> No.6553013

>>6553006
is that a person?

>> No.6553045

at the centre of the debate and often overlooked is the nature of the structure rather than the agency.

in a society with no constraints on size, complexity, density, concentration of power in the system, Hobbes provides all your answers, predictions and insight

but in a smaller, simpler living arrangement but a diffuse network of power, Rousseau has a better solution for

They understood each approach as it exists in itself but we neglect how it relates to size, scale, expansion, velocity, growth of the development

Since there is a leviathan, there should really be more discussion of an anti leviathan

>> No.6553050

>>6553003
Constrained vision vs. Unconstrained Vision from an interview with Thomas Sowell about his book, Conflict of Visions.

Constrained vision - man is flawed but fixed, how do we erect institution to contain his flaws to make life better.


Unconstrained vision - all problems come from oppression of men via institutions. Life will only be made better by tearing down institutions because life is not inherently troubling.

"Man is born free and everywhere he is in chains"- Rousseau

The unconstrained vision is not rooted in reality. Life has always been troubling. It does not follow that the assumptions of the unconstrained vision are true.

>> No.6553061

Neither but if I had to pick it'd be Rousseau. I don't understand monarchists.

>> No.6553068

>>6553045
>>6553050
these are both really great answers thanks guys.
>>6553061
I think Hobbes is trying to say that we need one person to follow because he will know best and command the respect of the rest of the "body". I'm not entirely sure.

>> No.6553076

>>6553003
Rousseau was a strange lad with his idea of how people are solitary tree hut dwellers.

Hobbes seems pretty reasonable in a pleasantly cynical way.

>> No.6553084
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6553084

>>6553003
rousseau, absolutely, both because i'm gay as hell and because to describe the base state of humanity as flawed, and to then say we must counteract that state with structures, necessitates the existence of some non-human ideal that is either divine or spooky in nature

>> No.6553086

>The trend toward concentration of economic power is not a response to natural law or inexorable technological imperatives. Rather it is the result of institutional forces which are subject to control, change and reversal.

>> No.6553089

>>6553003
Aristotle.

>> No.6553091

>>6553089
what did he say about this matter?

>> No.6553114

>>6553084
who's this qt patoo-t

>> No.6553115

>>6553068
The thing about following one person is we've come to a point in time where no one can be in expert in everything because of society becoming increasingly more complex. If one person has control over everything and power that is completely unchecked they will inevitably make poor decisions due to ignorance in a certain field of study (economics, psychology, enviromental science/engineering, etc.)

As flawed as democracy is it's less of a gamble.

>> No.6553164

>>6553084
>tfw inertia is a democracy's greatest virtue

>> No.6553182

>>6553061
We are talking about their state of nature views, not he contracts they want.

>> No.6553247

>>6553050
Forgot
"The life of the law has not been logic. It has been experience" - Oliver Wendell Holmes

>> No.6553256

Locke overcame this deadlock pretty successfully.
He didn't do much else well, though.

>> No.6554170

>>6553003
The brilliance of Hobbes is in his cynicism of human nature - most people are dumb and need governing.

I like Rousseau and his how Aristotelian he is in his desire to serve the state and perform civic duty, but the man ran away from Paris in its salon heyday so I always think of him as a fucking bumpkin hiding in Swiss cantons all day

>> No.6554193

>>6553050
This

>> No.6554219

>>6553003
sophisticated kek

>> No.6554241

>>6553164
isn't that the truth.

>> No.6554316

>>6553084
>>>/lgbt/

>> No.6554363

Nussbaum

>> No.6554406

>>6553003
I agree with Rousseau, but I can't be alone.