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/lit/ - Literature

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6552738 No.6552738 [Reply] [Original]

I finished Book of the New Sun yesterday and I could use some help figuring out some of the background lore, especially things related to the previous stellar empire.

As far as I understood it, humanity, having removed part of their humanity, ruled over a giant interstellar empire with the help of machines they had made (androids such as Jonas, but also non-humanoid computers and AI). Eventually, their humanity was somehow returned to them by said AIs, throwing mankind into confusion and sending their interstellar empire tumbling down. However, I feel like my understanding of the events might not be correct.

Additionally, there's the tale of the boy called Frog, which seems to be an analogy to Romulus and Remus, but at the same time the tale of how humanity conquered the stars.

If anyone else has a better understanding of the lore I'd be happy to listen to a better explanation.

>> No.6552752

>>6552738
The point of the lore is that it is so old and has become a legend. We will never know how exactly it happened.
Also I don't remember this as well as some other parts, but it is a fascinating story.

>> No.6552759

>>6552752

It's very vague on purpose, but I'm mainly trying to see if my rough understanding is even correct.

>> No.6552762

>>6552759
I think that you got the gist of it.

>> No.6552831

The Tale of the Boy Called Frog is a bit fuzzy my mind so I'll read it again and write out what I think afterwards if it's anything crazily different than what you've already said.

>> No.6552862

>>6552831

Thank you. I just reread it myself and I'm not sure about my interpretation anymore. Spring Wind seems to be fighting an interplanetary war, but Frog and Fish seem to be duking it out over Urth.

>> No.6552924

>>6552862
I'm not sure what the mountain beyond the shores of Urth is supposed to be. Immediately it's on another planet, I'm sure, but I can also see it as an Olympus analogue.

There's a lot of imagery that I'm finding myself unable to reconcile with the greater story. The Magi are the three wise men who visited upon the birth of Jesus and they appear here upon the birth of Spring Wind. It is odd that Gene Wolfe would liken Spring Wind to Jesus, because he's already done so many times with Severian, and I fail to see a parallel between the New Sun and Spring Wind. Also the Moses-like river basket travels of Frog and Fish seem to have no place, either, in terms of symbolism, but again I'm probably just being dense.

I remember on the Urth mailing lists there was some debate over Spring Wind being Typhon, who was born on War/Mars but I can't remember the source of that. Either way, Spring Wind seems to me to be Mars, given that Rhea Silvia is the mother of Romulus and Remus and Bird of the Wood is the mother of Fish and Frog.

The recurrence of Meschia and Meschiane is also strange because they, in the play of Dr. Talos, signify the new people that will inhabit Urth after the coming of the New Sun.

Squanto brings in a reference to the first Thanksgiving, I think.

I think this story is one of the more difficult ones when it comes to gauging its impact on the greater narrative. I'll have to think about it a bit, so I might return later.

>> No.6552930

>>6552924

Thanks for the preliminary explanation. I'm looking forward to hear from you if you think of anything else.

>> No.6552954

>>6552924
I guess there is a greater case to be made for Frog being Severian, in that he has a twin, was born of a priestess, and becomes a ruler, all as Frog does.

But Spring Wind doesn't fit with Ouen.

There might be significance behind this being told to a character named Little Severian, though, if Frog is indeed a little Severian.

>>6552930
I wrote a lot of miscellaneous thoughts down as I was reading it but felt that including them would only lead to confusing me even more so I might post some of those if I can find a way of working them into a greater interpretation. I hope the thread picks up more people, maybe from the other Wolfe thread, because there's certainly someone here who shed some light on the vaguer elements.