So .. how did his peeny detect the V-2's? Imipolex G and conditioning yeah, but two days ahead of time? Was he just a White Visitation freak with penal precognition that just happened to be conditioned to shit in the rockets?

File: 103 KB, 392x574, Gravitys_rainbow_cover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Wed May 13 15:41:20 2015 No.6536182 [Reply] [Original]

So .. how did his peeny detect the V-2's?

Imipolex G and conditioning yeah, but two days ahead of time? Was he just a White Visitation freak with penal precognition that just happened to be conditioned to shit in the rockets?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 16:14:49 2015 No.6536351 distribution of V-2 hits and Slothrop lays were both Poisson distributions, meaning that it's random.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 16:16:00 2015 No.6536357 >>6536351 Like, he wasn't able to predict that shit at all. The white visitations were mistaken due to statistical ignorance.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 16:20:20 2015 No.6536385 >>6536357 Whaaaaaat? I hadn't even consdiered.. Are you sure? Was this supposed to be obvious?

Anonymous Wed May 13 16:24:08 2015 No.6536405

>>6536385

It's been an age since I read it, but Slothrop has a conversation with the White Visitation about it. (I thought it was hilarious when I read it, because I was doing my PhD and I could identify putting faith in data they didn't understand with no knowledge of stats).

I don't know if it's right or not, a lot of the book appears to be hallucinations. I would imagine that there are multiple possible interpretations.

If your suspension of disbelief of the story wouldn't allow some weener rocket detection 2 days prior to launch, I'm amazed you made it the whole way through. :P

Anonymous Wed May 13 16:31:36 2015 No.6536429

>>6536357
>>6536385
I think this is correct. It's also more or less what Roger Mexico says early on in the book when someone asks him about it, I think.

Slothrop WAS experimented on with Imipolex-G as a child, but the cock-rocket connection was spurious.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 16:36:42 2015 No.6536442 >poor marvey

Anonymous Wed May 13 16:44:22 2015 No.6536470

>>6536385
There is a chapter (I think it's right before Marvy gets framed) where the White Visitation agents are unable to find the girls Slothrop has listed and start to suspect that it wasn't really true. I seem to recall that anyway, anyone who can confirm?

But, yes, the point is that they saw patterns where there weren't any. Which is based on the real story. British high command suspected that the Germans had way better target seeking technologies than their intelligence told them, and some intention with where the rockets were striking. In reality, they just saw patterns in randomness.

Anonymous Wed May 13 16:48:52 2015 No.6536487

>>6536470
I recall the chapter you mean, its actually very early in the book, I'd say around page 150, and that was explained by Slothrop using false names on his map.

But seriously guys, the poisson thing, you blew my mind there. It makes so much sense, - thematically too - can't believe I missed that.

Anonymous Wed May 13 18:21:14 2015 No.6536926

Okay, while you guys are here, some questions. What are the motivations of the Schwarzkommando/Empty ones Could anyone explain Enzian's character to me? I find the Schwarzkommando one of the most confusing aspects of the book.

Enzian was in love with Blicero, and shared his love of The Rocket. Where along the way did he break off from the Nazis? The Empty Ones, Enzian says, are following their slave ideology, wanting to exterminate themselves now that their masters have died, but The Empty Ones see it as something more honorable, as they feel they have no direction in their world anymore. Enzian then claims by staying alive, they are rebelling against the Nazi ideology .. sort of. So then there's The Rocket they're after, looking to fire a 00001. I don't see how they get someone aligned with The Counterforce when they are perpetuating The System, and I don't get any of their motivations. Tchitcherine wants to kill Enzian .. why was that again? It all makes so little sense to me.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 19:04:08 2015 No.6537110 .. anyone?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 19:47:42 2015 No.6537278 >>6536926 Okay to oversimplify Schwarzkommando seem like [bad guys], why are they identified/working with the [good guys] when their goals seem directly inverse?

Anonymous Wed May 13 20:41:17 2015 No.6537469

>>6537278
Schwarzkommando are black affricans from Südwestafrika that fell for nazi propaganda and believed they should commit racial suicide. Most of the herero tride were actually exterminated by Germans before ww1 so Pynchon uses this as a "does this remind you of anything?" thing, just like the chapter about the dodo-birds. Sado-masochism ties into this, but I'm way to drunk to elaborate, but you should be able to figure out the rest of the point.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 20:43:30 2015 No.6537477 >>6537469 Doesn't really help, but thanks for posting anyhow.

Anonymous Wed May 13 21:10:40 2015 No.6537568

>>6537278
Enzian's group and empty ones aren't the same people. They're two separate factions within the sudwest Africans who were transplanted to Nazi Germany, who collectively become known as the "Schwarzkommando". It gets confusing but Enzian is opposed to the Empty Ones and their racial suicide ideology.

The 00001 is their attempt at creating a rocket which would symbolically and literally break free from the literal and metaphysical force of "Gravity" which is expounded on towards the end of the book.

It was the ostensibly "evil" black rocket that actually represented hope as opposed to the 00000 it was based on, which was actually a white rocket containing the Schwarzgerät and the culmination of all of humanity's misguided, self-destructive impulses encapsulated in a sort of ritualistic human sacrifice to the "god" of progress.

Weissman/Blicero achieved transcendence through laying the foundation for humanity to possibly escape "Gravity" even though his literal actions were based on warped, insane ideologies due to the mind-warping effects the stress of taking part in the Sudwest genocide had on him and others (see the account of a soldier taking part of it in V., it explains how Pinecone portrayed the 1904 genocide).

Anonymous Wed May 13 21:23:13 2015 No.6537611

>>6537568
But how can Blicero's transcendence represent hope? It is a transcendence based on death, and a fusion with the very system (Their War) that perpetuates death, no?

To me, it would seem Enzian's rocket is no better. It is the same transcendence through bringing of death isn't it? How can their rocket then be identified with the counterforce?

Thanks for the tip of Blicero changing from his role in the genocide though, that actually makes a lot of sense.

Anonymous Wed May 13 21:26:31 2015 No.6537620

>getting GR in the mail tomorrow
Almost all of the terminology used in this thread makes absolutely no sense to me. When anon referred to GR as difficult, I assumed they meant 'good luck getting through it all, fucko' difficult ala War & Peace. Did you guys buy a companion or is the curve reasonable?

Anonymous Wed May 13 21:30:20 2015 No.6537634

>>6537620
>buy a companion
Nah, I doubt the usefulness of said "companions". I checked a popular one (Steven Weisenburger's) out of my University library for my reread and found it effectively useless. No interpretations, analysis explanations or criticism. Just short little scene by scene summaries and annotations you can find easily online.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 21:30:39 2015 No.6537635 >>6537620 There's no shame in getting a companion for your first read-through.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 21:43:56 2015 No.6537687 this thread makes me want to reread v. and gr this summer while camping for the nth time why does nothing come close to early pinecone

Anonymous Wed May 13 21:44:06 2015 No.6537691

>>6537611
The rockets, even though they were used as weapons, were actually fairly ineffective as weapons due to the various technical constraints and the logistical difficulty of building and effectively deploying them. They ended up being more of a psychological weapon even though they were big and flashy.

Even though they were used as weapons, they were built by scientists who originally intended them to be used for space travel (see Pokler/Franz, Mondaugen, etc.) before they were subcontracted by the military.

Blicero's transcendence was based on a death-obsessed ideology, but it was transformed into one that sought to escape from the "gravity" of the system and death by the Schwarzkommando who used the foundations he established to go beyond the zero (literally from 00000 to 00001, and as an attempt to go beyond the known "interface" that was considered inescapable up until that point). Whether Weissman/Blicero actually intended for that to happen or not (he didn't) isn't the point so much as how he ended up being the catalyst for it.

There's a part towards the end where it talks about how Slothrop's tarot spread is all fucked up and one a bit later that talks about how Weissman/Blicero's is positive. The irony there is that Slothrop, despite being a relatively decent guy (by Pinecone standards, anyway) only ended up becoming a force that inspired the silly, ineffectual aspects of the counterforce (or counterculture) while Weissman/Blicero, despite seeming to be a cog in the war machine/system was the one who actually ended up laying the groundwork for real change through his actions.

That and Slothrop ultimately found nothing but despair and emptiness even though he wanted to live and fight the good fight (to some extent), while Weissman/Blicero found fulfillment and happiness by following through on his insane death-ideology to the utmost extremes.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 21:45:41 2015 No.6537698 File: 22 KB, 407x470, 1414788232170.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6537687 >>6537687 >>6537687 >>6537687 love you man, sick of these kikes saying mason and dixon is better than GR or V or lot 49

Anonymous Wed May 13 21:48:18 2015 No.6537707

>>6537691
>Blicero's transcendence was based on a death-obsessed ideology, but it was transformed into one that sought to escape from the "gravity" of the system and death by the Schwarzkommando who used the foundations he established to go beyond the zero (literally from 00000 to 00001, and as an attempt to go beyond the known "interface" that was considered inescapable up until that point).
Could you point me to where this is discussed? I don't recall Enzian differentiating the 00001 from the 00000, but I like your interpretation

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 21:51:03 2015 No.6537723 >>6537698 m8 mason & dixon isn't even as good as against the day

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 21:56:14 2015 No.6537746 >>6537723 Against the Day is only better than Bleeding Edge

Anonymous Wed May 13 22:12:07 2015 No.6537795

>>6537707
>They'll help him through it. The Erdschweinhohlers will sit up all night with this nonstop intelligence briefing. He is the angel they've hoped for, and it's logical he should come now, on the day when they have their Rocket all assembled at last, their single A4 scavenged all summer piece by piece clear across the Zone from Poland to the Low Countries. Whether you believed or not, Empty or Green, cunt-crazy or politically celibate, power playing or neutral, you had a feeling-a suspicion, a latent wish, some hidden tithe out of your soul, something-for the Rocket. It is that "something that the Angel Thanatz now illuminates, each in a different way, for everybody listening.
>By the time he's done, they will all know what the Schwarzgerät was, how it was used, where the 00000 was fired from, and which way it was pointed. Enzian will smile grimly, and groan to his feet, the decision already made for him hours ago, and say, "Well, let's have a look at the timetables now."

later on

>Here's Enzian ramrodding his brand-new rocket through the night. When it rains, when the mist is heavy before the watch can quite get tarps over the glossy skin of the rocket is seen to've turned to dark slate. Perhaps, after all, just before the firing, it will be painted black.
>It is the 00001, the second in its series.

There's more but I don't feel like copying it all. The book goes backwards chronologically and ends with the launch of the 00000, so this all happens on an earlier part of the last act.

Anonymous Wed May 13 22:16:21 2015 No.6537819

>>6537795
Not sure I see how you've derived that interpretation from the 00001 from those passages though. I just recently finished the book, those parts are fresh in my head.
>It is the 00001, the second in its series.
I mean, does that itself not suggest a retreading of the 00000? I do not see how this one represents hope or escape.

Anonymous Wed May 13 22:22:15 2015 No.6537851

>>6537819
The numbering alone (besides other things) indicates that it isn't. Think back all the way to the first act. Remember what "the zero" represents, remember what actually going "beyond" it means. Then combine that with Enzian being opposed to the Empty Ones and their own death-ideology.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 22:26:49 2015 No.6537884 >>6536351 But they lined up exactly doesn't matter though because the entire novel is in slothrop's head, and he's actually just some mook locked away in an insane asylum

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 22:34:49 2015 No.6537935 >>6537884 >exactly Actually a V-2 fell in proximity to one of the girls anywhere from a few hours to a few days from Slothrop's encounter. In a city being bombed constantly where Slothrop is having sex constantly, overlap is inevitable.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 22:39:24 2015 No.6537967 >>6537935 yes, but the dots still lined up exactly, which is not statistically possible

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 22:46:50 2015 No.6538011 >>6537967 Everything is statistically possible. Add confirmation bias to the mix...

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 22:51:21 2015 No.6538038 >>6537746 AtD is Pinecone's 4th best book (3rd if you, like me, consider GR and M&D a tie)

Anonymous Wed May 13 22:51:35 2015 No.6538039

>>6537967
>>6537935
>>6538011

The aspect of him "predicting" the rocket strikes with his cock is only a small piece of the overall rocket conspiracy. The whole book is built on conspiracies within conspiracies, meanings within meanings, ambiguities within ambiguities. In a lot of cases, there are no definitive answers and things are open to interpretation. The book itself goes through great pains to establish all of these things, and at one point dismisses them entirely. You can't completely believe or dismiss anything you read in it.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 22:53:02 2015 No.6538044 >>6538011 I was gravely careless with my wording, but still the alignment is so close to impossible that you could not shrug it off as confirmation bias

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:05:41 2015 No.6538103 >>6537635 There is tremendous shame, and I know you can feel your pride crumble as you lie, and cheat your way through literature through that one, singular post, of self mutilation.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:06:57 2015 No.6538107 >>6538103 Literature isn't an exam

Anonymous Wed May 13 23:10:47 2015 No.6538121

>>6538103
There's no "shame" but you really shouldn't need one for Gravity's Rainbow. Just read V. first, make sure you understood it, and keep it in mind while you read Gravity's Rainbow.

It explains most of the more esoteric concepts and words at one point or another anyway so you don't need to know about absolutely everything before you're exposed to it by the book.

It's more understandable with something like Ulysses where it constantly refers to obscure bits of Irish history, concurrently parallels various myths and other works, and is written in a much more indecipherable way.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:12:35 2015 No.6538128 >>6538121 >you really shouldn't need one for Gravity's Rainbow uh huh, sure

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:13:49 2015 No.6538135 >>6538044 but you can. with the amount of rockets and the amount of fucking it is innevitable. the time between rocket impact and orgasm is extensive and varied. it only makes sense. remember, this is a world of coincidences to begin with

Anonymous Wed May 13 23:16:25 2015 No.6538146

>>6537795
Can you explain your blacked out part.

I understand in a way, but I can't wrap my head around it because I don't have a precise time table in my mind of what actions have occurred in order on a calendar. There is a lot of flashbacks, this I realize, and a lot of dreamscaping, but how precise is that chronologically speaking? Considering the war ends, and at the beginning, it's still waging. And how in theory, the book practically ends as Pokler stands, waiting at ground zero, making the realization that their weapons are random.

But, I guess, we have no real concept of time at all. It's just not something we can handle. Like how at the height of the Romans, the Chinese were making the first guns with gunpowder that had been around for centuries. Or how Samurai still existed just a couple hundred years ago, or how Oxford was founded as the Mayans were just beginning to build a civilization.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:16:38 2015 No.6538147 >>6538135 nope

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:16:59 2015 No.6538148 >>6537691 but Enzian only discovers the purpose of the 00000 once the 00001 is already built see >>6537795

Anonymous Wed May 13 23:21:59 2015 No.6538164

>>6538044
It happens all the time, literally, all the fucking time. The human brain is attracted to patterns that aren't even there. We function off of them. Any pattern. That's why you see faces and objects in clouds and shit. But in mathematics and statistics, there are crucial steps in destroying this part of human thought in critical analysis and computation. If you really want to get all philosophical about it, then depending on your focus, how fine-tuned your perspective, the less connected everything seems. Then the further out, the wide lens, the big picture, everything looks smashed together.

It's complete confirmation bias. Remember Pokler standing where the rocket is supposed to land. Remember him surviving.

This is why science has no room for faith, and that's the exact reason why philosophy has become outdated, mostly due to hacks like Aristotle who basically drowned in his own cum. But lets face it, he was rather going to die from a cum diet, or his dick was going to fall off, or his palm was going to disintegrate from the massive amount of self-fucking he did to vomit the shit he wrote.

Anonymous Wed May 13 23:26:52 2015 No.6538194

>>6538044
It was completely random. In theory, they could have picked anyone in the area of the city that Slothrop traveled in the timetable that they were researching him, and each individual would have shown a strong, yet unimportant pattern to the random landings of the V-2's.

And to really prove you wrong. The rockets were actually completely fucking random, and a logistics nightmare, much like the huge Gustav gun. Impressive, yet extremely ineffective due to the restrictive nature of exhausting creativity and lack of a grounded understanding or effective ability.

They overreached their capacity and hadn't create the necessary equipment or theories to launch V2's the way we casually launch a Tomahawk today.

Anonymous Wed May 13 23:28:10 2015 No.6538202

>>6538121
No, there is shame. And it says a lot about your personality i.e. you don't like doing anything without knowing absolutely everything you need to know.

Speed limit, amount of traffic, exact price on dinner, how late you're going to be there, the exact amount of cash to carry. In other words, you're probably extremely boring and a hassle to be around.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:31:20 2015 No.6538214 >>6538164 I know what Apophenia is... it does not explain how the map lined up perfectly.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:37:38 2015 No.6538237 >>6538214 BECAUSE IT IS A FUCKING RANDOM PATTERN ANYONE WOULD HAVE MATCHED UP MAGICALLY WITH IT FOR FUCKS SAKE Goddammit, some people honestly need to just be fucking murdered.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:40:40 2015 No.6538248 >>6538214 What is the criteria for a line up? A girl Slothrop fucks (there are many of them) lives in the vicinity of a V-2's (there are many of them) blast radius. Line ups are innevitable.

Anonymous Wed May 13 23:42:21 2015 No.6538254

>>6538146
The chronology is somewhat muddled but the 00000 was fired way before Slothrop actually found out about it. Chronologically it happened at some point after Katje left Weissman/Blicero and Gottfried, but presumably before anything that happens to Slothrop after he ends up at the casino. I'd have to reread the first act to be sure, but I suspect it actually happened very early on in the non-flashback sequence of events despite only being shown in detail at the very end.

>>6538148
The transformation wasn't intentional on the Schwarzkommando's part, but it was only possible in the first place because of Weissman/Blicero's actions. The part talking about his tarot spread explains how the whole thing was an occult ritual in a very oblique way. You won't understand this book at all if you limit your perspective to a strictly plausible, scientific, or logical one. The act of installing the Schwarzgerät onto the 00000, and launching it was a human sacrifice ritual which had the effect of triggering many of the events in the book. That becomes clear once you're told exactly what the Schwarzgerät was on the last few pages.

Anonymous Wed May 13 23:44:57 2015 No.6538259

>>6537611

here's a recent article/interpretation from the guardian about blicero that was kinda interesting, short read as well

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/07/baddies-in-books-captain-blicero-gravitys-rainbow-thomas-pynchon

>Despite the satirical and ridiculous nature of Blicero, he embodies an important real-world point. He is a composite of the fears and prejudices of the post-Cuban missile crisis era in which this 1973 novel was composed. Perverse and unsettling, he represents the unabashed wickedness that lies at the heart of man’s romance with deadly technologies. His corrupted idealism is meant to bring to mind the Nazi rocket scientists, such as Wernher von Braun, who were transplanted from Germany to Texas immediately after the war to work on the American space programme.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:46:00 2015 No.6538262 >>6538254 >if you limit your perspective to a strictly plausible, scientific, or logical one. It starts off with a guy who pokes into people's dreams, so that wasn't really going to be a risk...

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:46:47 2015 No.6538265 File: 30 KB, 658x198, Capture.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6538248

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:49:53 2015 No.6538274 this is quite funny. i was driving myself mad trying to come up with a logical link between the bonings and the bombings, and i ended up pulling a slothsrop myself. reminds me of when i read don quixote.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:51:39 2015 No.6538278 File: 103 KB, 400x461, v0_master.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6538265 >square for square

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:53:01 2015 No.6538280 >>6538274 >and i ended up pulling a slothsrop myself you fucked an underage girl and joined a band?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 23:55:29 2015 No.6538282 >>6538274 >>6538280 [spoilers]He hung himself.[/spoiler]

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:00:49 2015 No.6538307 >>6538282 So, who killed that bitch on the yacht? He just kind of finds her there, dead, hanging.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:02:02 2015 No.6538308 >>6538307 Prolly her mom. She had a thing for killing kids.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:02:48 2015 No.6538311 >>6538278 your point?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:04:18 2015 No.6538315 >>6538311 multiple points; correlating.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:05:15 2015 No.6538318 >>6538311 look at a "square" on any military map

Anonymous Thu May 14 00:05:56 2015 No.6538321

>>6538311
Meaning that within those squares, those large ass fucking squares encompassing block after block, Slothrop fucked a girl, and then days later a rocket hit somewhere in one of those squares. Those huge fucking squares.

You stupid ignorant cunt.

Anonymous Thu May 14 00:07:18 2015 No.6538328

>>6538307
I thought she had drowned during the storm. She was in the lower section with a port door right? Made sense to me, all mangled up in the room's rafters, dripping wet and pale. Slothrop jumped off the boat to go after her, right? So she either washed into the lower section at some point or someone recovered her and just stuffed her there (funny image)

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:09:28 2015 No.6538333 >>6538311 >as quickly as two days, as slowly as ten >slothrop has fucked hundreds of broads >london composed of not too many squares there are only so many places a rocket can fall.. 6-10 days is not evidence

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:10:10 2015 No.6538334 >>6538328 I could have sworn that she was hanging from the rafters.... It mentioned Slothrop refusing to look up at her hanging there or something like that.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:10:42 2015 No.6538335 >>6538308 What was with that anyhow? Pynchon's characterization was infuriating at times.

Anonymous Thu May 14 00:16:14 2015 No.6538355
File: 11 KB, 264x191, url.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6538334
She was. But he mentions something about her hair right? I think she had to be horizontal, not like she hung herself. So I'm picturing a room like this with her stomach wedged between a support and the roof and her legs and upper body/head hanging down

its been a while though and maybe i misinterpreted

Anonymous Thu May 14 00:16:17 2015 No.6538356

>>6538328
>>6538334
She was already dead before he fell off. He saw her hanging in the engine room but refused to acknowledge it until he came back onto the ship with Der Springer and was forced to look. Why do you think he felt nauseous when he talked to her mom right after seeing "the dress" there?

>>6538335
She was fucked in the head as a result of the way she lived. The radiation at the spa didn't exactly help either.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:17:18 2015 No.6538361 >>6538321 yeah except it's explicitly stated that the correlation runs deeper than simply sharing the same distribution.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:17:40 2015 No.6538363 >>6538355 The more you explain it the more I believe you to be right...

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:18:41 2015 No.6538369 >>6538356 ....oh fuck, man. I had no idea. Oh ...my..fucking...god... >>6538361 it's explicitly stated that the correlation runs deeper than simply sharing the same distribution. THAT'S THE CHARACTERS CONFIRMATION BIAS YOU STUPID CUNT

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:20:58 2015 No.6538379 ALL YOUR ANSWERS LIE HERE http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity%27s_Rainbow

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:21:04 2015 No.6538380 >>6538369 no, dude, it's saying the locations match up exactly, not just that there are the same number of incidents per square

Anonymous Thu May 14 00:21:42 2015 No.6538382

>>6538356
>She was already dead before he fell off. He saw her hanging in the engine room but refused to acknowledge it until he came back onto the ship with Der Springer and was forced to look. Why do you think he felt nauseous when he talked to her mom right after seeing "the dress" there?

OOOOOOHHHHHHHHH FFFUUUUUUUUCK

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:23:22 2015 No.6538386 >>6538356 >She was already dead before he fell off. Then it makes perfect sense. She WAS killed in the storm.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:24:35 2015 No.6538390 >>6538380 >>6538380 I hope you get raped, tortured, and slow-bled murdered you wasteful cunt. Fuck you.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:25:22 2015 No.6538394 >>6538390 why?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:25:35 2015 No.6538396 >>6538382 Yeah I just had my mind fucking wrecked. Poor Slothrop....

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 00:43:12 2015 No.6538434 >>6538386 wait just a minute there buster, thanatz sees her go overboard too

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 01:39:30 2015 No.6538590 >>6538434 Which part was that in?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 01:51:53 2015 No.6538636 >>6538590 Part 3, bout halfway

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 08:10:43 2015 No.6539421 >>6538636 Before or after Slothrop goes overboard the anubis?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 08:57:00 2015 No.6539495 >>6538434 thanatz was a figment of Slothrop's deteriorating insanity

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 11:25:31 2015 No.6539863 Every fucking thread like this makes me want to read the book again. But I have so many other books I need to read.... Godammit

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 12:06:36 2015 No.6539989 >>6539495 can't tell if you're joking. do you mean as a character he just isn't real or do you mean when slothrop sees him on the ship he's just hallucinating there

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 12:28:15 2015 No.6540061 >>6539989 both

Anonymous Thu May 14 12:30:44 2015 No.6540069

>>6540061
well I don't know why you'd think that, at the very least, he must have existed at one point. he is the owner of the anubis. how do you explain thanatz being capture by the schwarz and giving up information slothrop couldn't have had (while meanwhile slothrop wanders around going nutters)

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 12:34:21 2015 No.6540087 >>6540069 Schwarz doesn't exist either, they were invented by the white visitation

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 12:36:07 2015 No.6540093 File: 24 KB, 303x566, 1353737871268.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6540087

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 12:40:10 2015 No.6540105 >>6540093 Obviously you didn't read the book, or at least all too closely. The first time we are introduced to them they are being fabricated by the White Visitation as a method of propaganda to be spread throughout germany

Anonymous Thu May 14 12:44:34 2015 No.6540123

>>6540105
I recall this, but I read it as coincidence. Gerhardt Von Goll specifically suggests he created the Schwarzkommando with his film, but they have too much impact, too much history, too many connections for me to believe that. But, even if they weren't "real", even if it's the whole reversal of the rocket thing, first the explosion then the sound of it coming in, and we get the Schwarzkommando thrust into existence before they have a history which then fills itself in -- it doesn't matter. They have too much reach and effect on the plot to write them off because they "aren't real".

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 12:48:41 2015 No.6540136 >>6540123 >they have too much impact, too much history, too many connections do they? maybe you're just being paranoid maybe you like it

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 13:09:57 2015 No.6540198 >>6540136 If you want to go even further with the "it's all bananas man" route, you could say that all of it was just one of Pirate's highly elaborate daydreams.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 13:10:57 2015 No.6540202 >>6540198 >>6540136 stupid

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 13:13:10 2015 No.6540211 >>6540105 That's their origin, but it doesn't mean they didn't become real

Anonymous Thu May 14 13:17:06 2015 No.6540223

How come Pynchon acts as if Katje was in love with Blicero late in the book when we only see her as an unwilling captive?
>hurrrr sadomasochistic stockholm syndrome
but she acts like she had an actual relationship, not just that she enjoyed being fucked by him. was that supposed to have happened "off-screen" before it began?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 13:21:27 2015 No.6540238 >>6540202 I'm not saying it's the end-all-be-all answer. But there are none of those with this book. If that's the interpretation he wants to go with, why not take it to its furthest possible extreme?

Anonymous Thu May 14 13:24:43 2015 No.6540246

>>6540223
It's not really love in that sense. Despite the fucking (though he mostly just fucked the boy), they viewed him as more of a father-figure.

Part of the reason she ran away was because he was playing a "hansel and gretel" game with them, which was supposed to end with her "pushing him into the oven" and killing him. If she really hated him, she would've stayed and gone through with it.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 13:26:32 2015 No.6540254 >>6540238 that's a copout, there may not be a "be all end all" but there's readings and then there's dismissals. there's nothing intelligent about an interpretation that dismisses large chunks of the text altogether

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 13:31:50 2015 No.6540271 >>6540254 It doesn't have to be dismissive. It'd just mean you'd have to reinterpret what it all meant in that context. It'd make everything a lot more abstract and symbolic when analyzed, is all.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 13:34:14 2015 No.6540281 >>6536182 > Reading meme fiction Protip, Pynchon was stoned out of his gourd while writing this and made shit up as he went along.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 13:36:20 2015 No.6540290 >>6540281 I don't believe you've read it.

Anonymous Thu May 14 14:53:15 2015 No.6540543

>>6536182
How bout the two clues offered by the first part of the book (IIRC)
> Dr.Jamf had experimented with Slothrop as a child, and the pattern was ImipolexG->hardon. Now, as any good scientist, he'd revert the conditioning once the experiment was over (according to Pointsman), however, again according to Pointsman, there was the possibility of overstepping this reversal, just beyond the absolute zero (also recall the name of Part 1). Hence reversing the conditioning: hardon->ImipolexG.
> Since the sound is heard after the bomb, it makes sense (according to someone in TWV) for the conditioning to come before the blast.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 15:26:00 2015 No.6540645 >>6540254 The text already dismisses large portions of itself

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 15:28:02 2015 No.6540648 >>6540645 A text cannot conceivably dismiss itself. It can only change the lens through which a separate part of it is viewed. Everything in the book, even what "doesn't happen" still serves a purpose

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 15:31:12 2015 No.6540659 >>6540281 >stoned out of his gourd and made shit up as he went along sounds like a recipe for a very prophetic book

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 15:33:31 2015 No.6540664 >>6540648 sure

Anonymous Thu May 14 15:42:38 2015 No.6540685

Are the bananas the rockets of The Counterforce? Phalluses of opposite nature? In peacetime they are rockets of progress and exploration, but in the war where all rockets are surrendered to Them (besides Enzian's in the end) bananas are the next best things? Or am I being pretentious? I can never gage where the rabbit hole ends.......

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 15:54:31 2015 No.6540734 >>6540685 It went from bananas to rockets to dildoes (the part with Roger and Pig).

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 15:57:59 2015 No.6540745 >>6540734 Also lightbulb pipes a-and flutes too!

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 16:14:36 2015 No.6540811 >>6540745 I love the narrative voice in Gravity's Rainbow

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 21:10:54 2015 No.6541893 >>6539863 Was about to say just this. Tfw. I swear, where were all these GR threads when I first read this around the time /lit/ itself was new???

Anonymous Thu May 14 21:17:35 2015 No.6541911

Finally finished it. What a ride.

So that was a nuke at the end, in LA, right? The ascent of the war's last V-2 and the descent of postwar's first nuke? The air raid siren especially leads me to believe this. I also read somewhere the funeral passed on the freeway may be read to be Kennedy's, putting it at a logical time for the nukes to fall.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 22:20:45 2015 No.6542116 >>6541911 no it was a V-2 falling on a cinema in london

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 22:24:09 2015 No.6542127 Episode on the Qu'ran was the best

Anonymous Thu May 14 22:24:57 2015 No.6542129

>>6542116
not just any V-2, that was the 00000 Though I think he was talking about that earlier part of The counterforce, called Orpheus drops his lute or something. That or he got confused and assumed the last few bits in that act were all happening during the same timeframe.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 15 00:02:06 2015 No.6542483 >>6540123 >Gerhardt Von Goll specifically suggests he created the Schwarzkommando with his film what the fuck? it's been like 6 years since i read it but... wat? i don't rememver that at all, wasn't the scwarzcommando like a suicidal group?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 15 00:07:26 2015 No.6542488 >>6542116 Antwerp. http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3388

Anonymous Fri May 15 00:10:20 2015 No.6542495

>>6542483
It's mentioned when he's discussed during the Gaucho U-boat part. He thought that the act of creating the Schwarzkommando propaganda recording for The White Visitation became a sort of invocation that called the real Schwarzkommando into existence.

Also see >>6537568 for more info on the Schwarzkommando.

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/lit/ - Literature