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/lit/ - Literature

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6497858 No.6497858 [Reply] [Original]

>seminar teacher tells me Milton insists on the individual's freedom of will in Paradise Lost
>Read through it
>Seems like Satan and everyone else are puppets of God
>confused.avi
I don't really get this epic. It's hard to understand how God’s plan and free will is compatible. So, does Satan act on his own accord or is he just a puppet to God?

>> No.6497869

>>6497858
Stop disagreeing with your professor. Be a good schoolboy and listen to them, since they're wicked smaht. Professors hate individual and creative thinking.

>> No.6497876

god is the ultimate "because i said so" character.

You have free will, but he "knows" what you are going to do anyways, because he is so smart he can just fucking read you and i guess he can also predict the indeterminate future because he is god.

Trying to apply logic; like "how is the future indeterminate if one entity knows it already" cant apply to god, because if god exists and says that you have free will you nessesarily must have free will, but he also is omnipotent so he knows what you will do with it.

If god tells you he has a square circle in his pocket he has it in his pocket. eetc

>> No.6497878

>>6497869
Not disagreeing, but if someone could explain to me how, it would be a lot of help.

>> No.6497887

IIRC humans are special in that they alone have free will. All other beings do not which would include angels and so Lucifer.

>> No.6497892

>>6497876
Thanks, but how the fuck does Satan act on free will when Satan is created evil and Hell follows him in all places? This predestination stuff makes this confusing af

>> No.6497898

>>6497887
What a sweet deal

>> No.6497911

>>6497892
because god sez so

>> No.6497926

The major paradox in which we exist is the free will - determinism duality. The both coexist, but it is fairly difficult for a 'censored' being to comprehend it fully. Arguably, humans can only fathom about it, never will we be able to fully understand it.

Think of an ant Sure, you'll say that she is not aware of itself, but are you sure of that? Anyway, for the sake of the example, let's say the ant has free will, in it's own way, in it's own microuniverse. She takes a left and a right in the comb, and she gets to a cross. She takes a left - an act of will. That doesn't stop the car that runs atop the road to crush all of the fucking anthill as it drives over. Did the ant choose? Yes. Could she elude her "fate"?. No.

What I'm trying to say is that it all depends from the point of view. We may as well make choices based on our "will"; for a higher being our acts of will are just simple mechanisms, just as we see instinctual ones for animals.

>> No.6497929

The point is there's no God.

>> No.6497938

>>6497926
Sweet. Thanks man

>> No.6497945

>>6497926
This, or even simpler.

You have free will as long as good allows you to.

>> No.6497947

>>6497945
>You have free will as long as good allows you to
Good or God?

>> No.6497960

>>6497947
God, sorry.

>> No.6498538

>mfw every single poster before me is plebian as fuck
you aren t ready to read PL...and the rest of these fedoras have never read it and are just positing muh God is dead platitudes. not going to hold your hand: that s your professor's job but just know that he s right and you re ignorant.

>> No.6498573

Have you ever played the Sims? It's like that. You build the house, plant the furniture, craft the person and give traits. Then you hit play and watch them go, if something fucks up you pause and correct it, then hit play again. You don't sit there and control their every action like an RTS game.

>> No.6498582

>>6497869
this

even if you prove a good point they won't like you disagreeing with them. may even fuck up your essays if they mark it

>> No.6498690

>>6497858
Teacher is right.

If you know the slightest thing about Milton's theology, he was violently anti-predestinarian and was thoroughly concerned with defending free will in all his writings.

>> No.6499909

>>6497858
Focus on the opening of Book 3, the famous Invocation to Light. Milton addresses your question, and some of the criticism in this thread very directly.

>> No.6501142

Angels are created to glorify god but they change their mind and fuck shit up, because yahweh loves free will so much he'll allow countless suffering for it to remain cuz fuck you
what is hard to understand

>> No.6501177

>>6497947
God is literally Good, the concept, so both

>> No.6501190

God does not ordain, he only knows all to where it seems like he has ordained, he might as well have because he has seen all fates.

>> No.6501198

>>6497858
Let's put it like this: Everyone has the free will to do what they want, but only God is truly free.

>> No.6503060

>>6497858
You're thinking of God as existing in linear time looking forward as we all do, but that isn't accurate. Milton's God not only knows all outcomes, but is simultaneously present at all points in time from Alpha to Omega (or "Let there be Light" to "Put out the Light"). Nothing happens against his will, and since he created everything and controls everything, Lucifer's free will is determined, but it's true free will at the same time from Lucifer's linear perspective, because he was created in a manner that perfectly fit his destiny can will fulfill it, but he isn't aware of his entire being and existence simultaneously. He is a book, written by God, reading himself. Also, calling him "evil" is a waste of time: he's just the servant of God with the hardest job.

>> No.6503396

>>6497858
I didn't discern even a hint of insincerity or irony in Milton's writing when I read it. So when he talks about Lucifer's jealousy and acrimony towards God he's depicting exactly the free will he believes every being exercises (from his perspective, with the permission of God). I think your professor is right.

>> No.6503429

You should read up Calvin's and Luther's writings. The problem of ethics and determination is the central issue in their doctrine, and Milton wanted to lay it out for you plebs who don't read theology (to justify the ways of God to men). Basically, you have free will and God know everything. Those are axioms. They're true because they are true. The fact that God knows what you will do does not mean he controls it. Yes, Satan was "destined" to become Evil, but it was by his own actions and will that he got there.

>> No.6504123

>>6497869
>wicked smaht
Pls do not bully Southern New England ;_;

>> No.6504260
File: 102 KB, 770x578, space-skeleton.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6504260

>>6497887
Wrong. Angels, demons and other divine beings also have free will, but because they are aware of the existence of God, they literally have no other choice but to do his bidding unquestionably.
Humans are not aware of God's existence, therefore they are not required to do his bidding. That is the difference between humans and other sentient beings of God's creation.

It's like this:
There's a cake and once you know about it, you must eat it and you can only eat it if you have knowledge of it.
A knows about the cake
B doesn't know about the cake

A must eat the cake. He has no other choice.
B is not required to eat the cake, but he can chose to learn about it, in order to have it too.

guess which one is the humans?

probably the worst analogy ever but you get the point

>> No.6504419

>>6497858
>>Read through it
>>Seems like Satan and everyone else are puppets of God

Just be honest, you didn't read it.
If you did, you would know just how ridiculously wrong that statement is. I mean just holy motherfuckng fuck.

>> No.6504437

>>6504260
This was actually a nice explanation

>> No.6504470

>>6498538
how about stop being a faggot and contribute somethin of your thoughts?