Daily reminder that if you aren't published by the age of 25 [spoiler] (twenty-five) [/spoiler] you will NEVER be patrician and your work will NEVER be canon.

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Anonymous Mon Apr 27 03:50:27 2015 No.6461862 [Reply] [Original]

Daily reminder that if you aren't published by the age of 25 (twenty-five) you will NEVER be patrician and your work will NEVER be canon.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 03:51:23 2015 No.6461868

>DFW was 24 when Broom of the System was published
>Zadie Smith was 25 when White Teeth was published
>Marek Hlasko was 23 when Eighth Day of the Week was published
>F.S. Fitzgerald was 23 when This Side of Paradise was published
>Carson McCullers was 23 when The Heart is a Lonely Hunter was published
>Tao Lin was 24 when EEEEE EEE EEEE & Bed were published
>Italo Calvino was 23 when The Path to the Nest of the Spiders was published
>Kerouac was 20 when The Sea is My Brother was published
>Goethe was 25 when The Sorrows of Young Werther was published
>Musil was 25 when The Confusions of Young Torless was published
>Hemingway was 25 when In Our Time was published
>Tatsuhiko Takimoto was 24 when Welcome to the NHK was published
>Ryu Murakami was 24 when Almost Transparent Blue was published
>Garcia Marquez was 20 when Eyes of a Blue Dog was published
>Nietzsche was 18 when "Napoleon III as a President" was published
>Nietzsche was 18 when "Fate and History" was published
>Nietzsche was 18 when Free Will and Fate was published
>Nietzsche was 19 when "Can the Envious Ever Truly Be Happy?" was published
>Nietzsche was 20 when "On Tendencies" was published
>Nietzsche was 20 when "My Life" was published
>Saramago was 25 years old when Land of Sun was published
>Dickens was 24 when Sketches by Boz was published
>Dickens was 25 when The Pickwick Papers was published
>Huxley was 25 when Limbo was published
>James Joyce was 25 when Chamber Music was published
>Proust was 25 when Pleasures and Days was published
>Mishima was 23 when Confessions of a Mask was published
>Bret Easton Ellis was 21 when Less Than Zero was published
>Bret Easton Ellis was 23 when Rules of Attraction was published
>Kenzaburō Ōe was 23 when Nip the Buds, Shoot the Kids was published
>Emile Zola was 24 when Contes à Ninon was published
>Balzac was 20 when Cromwell was published
>Baudelaire was 24 when Salon of 1845 was published
>Hitomi Kanehara was 20 when Snakes and Earrings was published
>Stig Dagerman was 23 when Ormen was published
>Strindberg was 22 when The Outlaw was published
>Ibsen was 22 when Catiline was published
>Milan Kundera was 24 when Man: A Wide Garden was published
>Adam Thirwell was 24 when Politics was published
>Ned Beaumann was 25 when Boxer, Beetle was published
>Norman Mailer was 25 when The Naked and the Dead was published
>Eleanor Catton was 22 when The Rehearsal was published
>Robert Walser was 23 when Schneewittchen was published
>Noah Cicero was 23 when The Human War was published

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 03:52:13 2015 No.6461871 File: 10 KB, 113x122, mostchinese.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6461862 why should i care

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 03:57:23 2015 No.6461887 ITT autism

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 03:59:10 2015 No.6461894 >>6461887 >being bitter

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:11:41 2015 No.6461937 >>6461862 you can be the 'young author' until you hit 35. Come on anon get a grip on reality

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:12:50 2015 No.6461943 >>6461862 still got 5 years wish me luck anon

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:13:40 2015 No.6461948 >>6461862 George Saunders Rayomnd Chandler FUCKING KANT

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:14:20 2015 No.6461951 >>6461862 well memed

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:18:57 2015 No.6461968 >>6461937 >actually thinks this is true Actually rolling on the floor laughing as I type this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:20:03 2015 No.6461971 >>6461948 >Immanuel Kant was 25 when Thoughts on the True Estimation of Vital Forces was published

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:21:10 2015 No.6461975 >>6461968 That's from a Jonathan Ames essay come on

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:24:08 2015 No.6461983 >>6461975 >Jonathan Ames was 25 when I Pass Like Night was published

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:27:36 2015 No.6461998

>>6461862
That's not true. Some of them did crap when they were young, some only did crap when they got older.

It's taking us middle-class trash longer because we grew up raised on Disney and fears of Fascism. We grew up engulfed in the culture industry, praising garbage and disdaining the intellect. If you want to be good, you have to undo that garbage.

The idea of a great writer and great masterpiece is also a dying thing, a relic of 20th century and earlier thinking.

To be a writer in today's day and age, knowing full-well the odds, is the bravest thing a man can do.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:31:51 2015 No.6462011

AT LAST

I see the wisdom of

Start With the Greeks and then the Latins
>Reading in Translation, and
Publishing by 25

Truly, I cannot put into words this motivation. Who are you, learned soul? On what height do you live on, from there what spectacle do you see?

God bless. Carry on.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:34:06 2015 No.6462017 >>6461998 >all those words and such little content

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:34:21 2015 No.6462018 >>6461983 and he was still the young author when The Extra Man was published :^)

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:48:31 2015 No.6462053 >>6462017 >All that arrogance, and so little results. #JustMillennialThings. Seriously, Post-Modernism threw the Intellectual to the mob. Now we live in some shitty Ochlocracy, where 'mah feelz' is all that is needed to be argued.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 04:58:32 2015 No.6462079 >>6462053 You're pretty good at talking without saying anything.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:06:16 2015 No.6462096 >>6462079 >all those words and such little content >You're pretty good at talking without saying anything. And you need to learn a new quip.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:09:32 2015 No.6462107 >>6461862 I'm nearly 28. >>6462053 Agreed, post-modernism makes everything harder. Its up to my generation I feel like (people who are roughly 18-35 now) to come up with a valid response to the flaws of post-modern thought.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:11:55 2015 No.6462114 >>6462107 What are you talking about there have been responses to post-modernism for decades.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:12:00 2015 No.6462115

>>6462107
Stop kidding yourself, you don't even know what post-modernism means and you haven't made any effort to read the books which are examples of it. Post-modernism is fine in context, and those who despite it are usually DFW fans who equate new sincerity with not having to make much effort. Tao Lin was young and wasn't pomo, same with Noah Cicero, Ben Brooks, Zachary German and a whole lot of others. Don't blame your failures on other people, grandpa.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:26:52 2015 No.6462154
File: 15 KB, 325x360, 20060506223501!Kohlberg_moral_stages_vop.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6462107

Honestly. It took a very long time, but I found the answer.

First. Brush up on Kohlberg's stages of Moral Development. Unlike Post-Modernism, it has a strong empirical backing, and accurately explains the level of moral functioning people of.

Furthermore, Kohlberg's moral stages are content neutral, context dependent. Meaning people of two different culture will operate in the same contexts, but have different moral codes.

Post-Modern ethos emerged because society openly tolerates level 3 moral thinking, where-as the threshold was normally set at level 4.

So the obsession of genitalia/skin color/sexual desire is actually moralizing at a lower level. It is irrelevant as to WHAT is actually being done, but WHO is doing what.

>It doesn't matter if I should enforce a law.
>The question is, 'do I like him?'
>See American Psycho for what life is like at Kohlberg 3.
>"I just want to be liked," because being liked is the highest stage of moral thinking. (Level 3)

Where-as the traditional dumbass conservative follows an ethics he cannot understand, Post-Modernism are incapable of following ANY kind of ethics.

>So even though Conseratives don't understand things why things like Due Process, Social Security, or Marriage are good
>This is where 'White Southern Democrats' came from.
>Post-Modernism doesn't understand, but refuses to admit that not understanding is a bad thing.

Finally, we can EMPIRICALLY show that Post-Modernists have a much lower capacity for understanding moral thinking, by issuing the test to populations, and comparing them with the general population.

>Btw. Third World nations show a much higher proportion at level 3, where as modern nations are level 4.

Finally, level 5 is actually being capable of interpreting the law to make it more effective, and level 6 is being able to actively understand multiple ethics set.

So independent thinkers are capable of understanding multiple UNIVERSAL principals, as opposed to being obsessed about their Vaginas and Race.

The bad news, however, is that people at Kohlberg 3 cannot understand that they are fucking up, in the same way a Sociopath cannot understand why stealing is wrong (Kohlberg 2.)

Even worse, the Post-Modernist revolution has undermined any capacity to enforce ethical systems on the population, and since ~40% of the population reaches Kohlberg 4, the ethical are outnumbered.

Finally, the reason why this information isn't 'out there,' is because there isn't actually a means to distribute controversial messages anymore.

>We highly trust Academia to be gatekeepers because of their past credentials.
>But Academia has fully regressed three levels down on Ethics.
>It used to be a place to invent a better code of ethics. Now it is a placed to act like Middle School Girls.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:28:53 2015 No.6462158 >>6462154 This is some /x/-tier schizophrenia.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:29:06 2015 No.6462160 >>6462114 I don't think the response has gelled into a cohesive movement yet. As a writer, I do feel a lot of pressure to be very ethical in the philosophies I publicly espouse, and the Internet age really does not make that easy (For me at least).

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:29:39 2015 No.6462162

>>6462154

>In b4 DAT'S SEXIST
>In b4 'Wow. Just wow.'
>In b4 'You're pretty good at talking without saying anything.'

This is the kind of logic that Kohlberg 3 operates at. The subject cannot address what is being said, so it must attack the subject goer instead.

Level 4 also operates on that level, but invokes a higher authority instead.

>I don't understand my laws, but I know enough to know that we need them.

Finally, the reason why there has been a 'stall' against Post-Modernism is that we are taking Post-Modernists in good faith, when they actually have the mentality of a late teenager.

Ninjaed.

>This is some /x/-tier schizophrenia.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:30:17 2015 No.6462166 >>6462115 What does post-modernism mean to you? I haven't had failures so much as an inability to very succinctly respond to post-modernism in the way that say, deconstructionism responded to the strictures of structuralist critical theory.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:33:49 2015 No.6462174

>>6462154
I never watched (all of) American Psycho. I had friends in high school who were OBSESSED with it but it just seemed like such a ham-handed effort to critique yuppies. I feel like it was a textbook example of how storytelling is much more effective when you can show not tell, and that movie was too damn preachy for me. Hell, I only this year have made peace with the preachiness of Requiem For A Dream, as I feel like its heart is in the right place even if I still feel that it is agit-prop to the point of making me feel uncomfortable with its message (however salient it is).

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:38:19 2015 No.6462186 >>6462174 Birdman was the same way in its heavy-handedness, to be honest.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:39:27 2015 No.6462188
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>>6462154
I guess I'm a 5 and an aspiring 6? Or am I just being an idealist regarding my own behavior? Great exegesis, btw.
My personal view is that the Internet has directly made the post-enlightment concept of the "University" obsolete, just as the development of the secular "University" system really did away with a lot of feudal customs, reduced the power of the Church vs. the power of "Academics", and tried (and failed imho) to create a moral-imperative based meritocracy. Now we are headed into a sort of vocational shadow of the University, as evidenced by everyone shouting the importance of "STEM" from every rooftop it seems nowadays. I do fear what system the Internet will enable in the wrong hands (obviously this has been discussed EXTENSIVELY), but I still fear that the Internet has effectively replaced God in many people's lives.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:41:07 2015 No.6462192 >>6462162 If you were able to articulate yourself without relying on obscure personality theories I'd reply to your long-ass post. But you can't, so I won't.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:45:45 2015 No.6462201 >>6462186 Never saw that, what was that about/starring?

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:46:20 2015 No.6462203

>>6462188

The important thing to understand about Kohlberg is that it NEVER involves 'right or wrong,' or 'good or evil.'

Rather, it specifically involves the ability to understand Ethics, as opposed to 'being ethical.'

>My personal view is that the Internet has directly made the post-enlightment concept of the "University" obsolete, just as the development of the secular "University" system really did away with a lot of feudal customs, reduced the power of the Church vs. the power of "Academics", and tried (and failed imho) to create a moral-imperative based meritocracy. Now we are headed into a sort of vocational shadow of the University, as evidenced by everyone shouting the importance of "STEM" from every rooftop it seems nowadays. I do fear what system the Internet will enable in the wrong hands (obviously this has been discussed EXTENSIVELY), but I still fear that the Internet has effectively replaced God in many people's lives.

This is level 6 moral reasoning, because it is capable of comparing alternative moral structures.

So if a person can weigh the pros and cons of something like Islam compared with Liberalism, then they are reasoning at level 6.

Where-as Post-Modernism would only be obsessed with Muslim people, rather than their ideas. (Do my Muslim friends like me? Did what I say was offensive?)

Level 5 would be knowing how to enforce ONE moral schema well, where as Level 6 is being able to compare and contrast multiple moral schemas.

All good governments are at level 5, because they only enforce their own laws (see: The US Constitution.)

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:47:48 2015 No.6462213 >>6462203 >All good governments are at level 5, because they only enforce their own laws (see: The US Constitution.) What I mean to say is that humanity isn't capable of a level 6 government, and there are lower forms of government.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:48:55 2015 No.6462218 >>6462201 It won Best Picture. I don't want to spoil it, but it's basically about being Creative in the 21st Century. If you are an artist, it IMMEDIATELY resonates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJfLoE6hanc

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:49:32 2015 No.6462221

>>6462166
Post-modernism was a reaction to a sort of statis in the culture wherein the text became too reliant on a sort of tacitly accepted normalcy, one that became reinforced by advertising and mass-distributed art forms (TV, etc). A lot of pomo writing is therefore a conspicuously self-conscious reaction to this, mainly by positing certain problems or dilemmas about the role of the author (which extends into deconstructionist theory) and notion of the text and so on. Pomo also confronted the rise of TV and such by allowing it to influence their work and using it as a frame of reference despite it being a traditionally "low-brow" art form. It was in essence a reactive movement, a sort of humorous protest, but when their strategy was co-opted by advertisers and TV culture wanting to remain cool despite being parodied, their edge was lost and their protest just contributed to the continued detachment of art and emotional sincerity. When everyone started rolling their eyes it became seriously uncool to say or do anything not intended to produce further eye rolling, as much as people longer for sincere communication and expression of stuff that was now deemed gooey etc.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:55:19 2015 No.6462236

>>6462203
So is level 6 mean I am somehow unusually ethical, or is it just mean I am who I am. It seems to imply, perhaps implicitly an ethical hierarchy, thoguh I'd be lying if I said I knew anywhere near as much as this topic/Kohlberg as you do. The U.S. seems like about a 2 right now :(
Also serious question, does being a "6" mean I'm not autistic? I mean I've been told by doctors I'm clinically not repeatedly, with testing, but I always have this sneaking suspicion that I am in the sense that autism is a vague moral term that we have now simply come to use to pathologize behavior we do not like, rather than represent a spectrum of developmental delays, as was originally, I believe, the intention of defining it as such.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:58:14 2015 No.6462241

>>6462218
Honestly, from the reviews I have no idea whether I will like it (seems like a bit of a movie you get the third time watching it perhaps?) but I will add it to Netflix to watch when I've had more sleep, so thanks. I do think the Academy Awards are a pedestrian platform to disguise the tastes of old, bougie, middlebrow white folks as an honor, rather than a way to promote a business (the film business) as I see it is.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:59:26 2015 No.6462245 >>6462221 was? So its over now? I know its super-cliche but I haven't had a TV in my apartment for 6 years now.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 05:59:51 2015 No.6462248

>>6462236
>Also serious question, does being a "6" mean I'm not autistic? I mean I've been told by doctors I'm clinically not repeatedly, with testing, but I always have this sneaking suspicion that I am in the sense that autism is a vague moral term that we have now simply come to use to pathologize behavior we do not like, rather than represent a spectrum of developmental delays, as was originally, I believe, the intention of defining it as such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_learning_disorder

Check yourself for this.

It turns out there is an entire (small) set of people who are cognitively abnormal, in the sense of ADHD.

It 'seems' like Autism, but it isn't and contains weird advantages with major disadvantages.

>But if it isn't the case, then IDK (Shrugs.)

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:09:25 2015 No.6462271
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>>6462248
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_learning_disorder
Yeah that's pretty spot on for me assuming that's a legit clinical thing and not just a way of saying "some people are more verbal thinkers" in that testing has put me at off the charts on verbal reasoning and borderline retarded on spatial reasoning with poor fine motor skills (not just self-diagnosis, this is from WAIS-testing, as well as occupational therapists' and psychologists opinions from when I was a child. I hate being so damn pathologized though.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:11:15 2015 No.6462274

>>6462245
I haven't watched TV for years either. Yes, it's overall hype has died away and only lame brands and clever writers quickly forgotten continue to produce art according to its thesis. The internet alone has pretty much rekt traditional media, and people are just disinterested in passively consuming media for the sake of it in 2015, which is why internet journalism has destroyed and will continue to destroy newspapers (where you're forced to read all of the content instead of just choosing which bit to pay attention to). Even Tao Lin's books are full of references to twitter / 4chan / gawker / gmail etc, which makes the reader feel they are somehow a part of the text rather than an anonymous member who is expected to pay up and accept their inferiority as they sit and mutely admire the author. Writing novels in 2015 is hard because we are not only post-all trends of writing (something cultural postmodernism has allowed / demanded / defined), but we are also aware that the internet allows potential authors to communicate their angst or their feelings or whatever to online communities they associate with. They're no longer sitting in a damp flat in Toulonne working on a novel that will compensate for their isolation. They are sitting in New Mexico and exhausting the motivation to write a novel (for example) by spamming feelthreads on /mu/. Twitter has made it so that people "get it" if you say you're alienated or whatever. No Longer Human would have eyes rolled over it were it published in 2015 because people just accept that many if not most people feel that way. We accept that we are all protagonists in a lonely sea of fellow protagonists too isolated and afraid of rejection to reach out to others and become a potential extra to them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:11:33 2015 No.6462275 I'm 24 and I've been sitting on a few novels for some years now. Well, shit, time to get those drafts sorted out.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:14:19 2015 No.6462281 >>6462275 It's too late for you bro. Editing, finding an agent and publishing takes at least one year. Sorry to be the one to break it to you dude.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:18:20 2015 No.6462291

>>6462271

Welcome to the Hegelian club.

Alot of famous and infamous people have had the condition. Einstein, Marx, Churchill, Jobs, Putin (rumoured), Edison, Hitler, Orwell, Newton....

So if it matters, there is potential. But it's extremely hard to take advantage of.

Take care.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:22:44 2015 No.6462299

>>6462274
I could not have phrased that better myself, honestly given your perspective I'd be rather intrigued as to what you think of my writing as well as just what the fuck to do in a world where everything is post-everything and authenticity is archaic at best, obsolete at worst.
karmicdeath d/ot wordpress d/ot c/om
Like seriously, I wish you were in my lit classes in school to make some of my more crotchety tenured professors shut their pie-holes expecting to be constantly fawned over for the most part simply for being well-read.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:25:19 2015 No.6462303

>>6462291
But I hate Hegel. Or do I just hate him because I am similar to him? I've been doing well taking advantage of it, in terms of academic success, money, reputation, reviews of my writing, and gainful employment so far but it does feel like everything is so goddamn ephemeral now and it will all fall apart the second someone slightly smarter, more well known and slightly less concerned with ethics decides to tell everyone not to take me seriously or accord me any respect for my work. God, why the fuck am I still awake.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:32:43 2015 No.6462322

>>6462299
1. I've read your blog before having seen it posted (without relevance) in another thread. It seems out-dated (the image is pretty gay) and I don't understand what's happening (the 420 meet-up, the rambling shit about purple hearts)

2. I don't know what your profs are like, but I would suggest (I hate advising people on anything since my life is almost comically pathetic) to articulate your distaste for them in a calm, reasonable way. Otherwise you will be experiencing anger but lack the internal coherence to overcome it.

I have an email I use for /lit/ correspondence if you wanna talk. Since /lit/ is starting to become overrun with meme-spammers and so on I'd like to keep in touch with some of the folks who've been here a while if they are also working on something and are interested in discussing what we're working on and so on.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:38:05 2015 No.6462330 >>6462241 >>6462186 >>6462154 >>6462299 stop saying honestly, it implies that you normally lie but took this special occasion to tell the truth

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:39:25 2015 No.6462337
File: 339 KB, 1280x720, stannis-house-baratheon-34551305-1280-720.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6461971
And then he went on the pussy express and never looked back.

>>6462053
>Now we live in some shitty Ochlocracy, where 'mah feelz' is all that is needed to be argued.
Good thing that I'm 39 then and therefore too old to be fashionable.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:46:19 2015 No.6462360 >>6462337 Post a picture of your booth

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 07:11:13 2015 No.6462447 >>6462360 What booth?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 07:32:43 2015 No.6462531 >>6462447 You know what I'm talking about. Post it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 07:34:31 2015 No.6462534 File: 416 KB, 1346x686, booth2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6462531 >search on Duckduckgo for "booth" >1st image hit Here it is.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 07:45:20 2015 No.6462579 >>6462534 You disappoint me, gas-kun

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 09:20:26 2015 No.6462854 bump

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 09:26:22 2015 No.6462875 File: 44 KB, 736x595, big.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6462053 >>6462107 >>6462079 There is nothing wrong wih post-modernism what the fuck are you people talking about?

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/lit/ - Literature