You have 1 minute to disprove Stephen Fry's argument on God https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

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Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:08:17 2015 No.6460615 [DELETED]

You have 1 minute to disprove Stephen Fry's argument on God

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:13:32 2015 No.6460634

>>6460615
The Book of Job answers the problem of evil by telling us that our problems, the things we consider evil, everything that seems monumentally awful to us is nothing compared to the vastness of God's universe and God's power. Things happen for reasons we do not and cannot ever know.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:14:23 2015 No.6460640 it's not literature

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:14:28 2015 No.6460641 >>6460615 You could give me a 100 years and I'd be coming up short

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:14:43 2015 No.6460645 >>6460634 Strawman argument

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:15:51 2015 No.6460649 >>6460645 fallacy fallacy

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:17:04 2015 No.6460655 >>6460645 Explain how this is a strawman argument. Convince me that you aren't just another plebeian tossing around big boy words he read on the /pol/ sticky.

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:17:36 2015 No.6460659

pretty much>>6460634

Also he mentions theodicy, there are hundreds of rationalizations for evil. Fry presents an ad hominem "it's not fair" critique that can hardly be described as an argument. But you probably already know that and this thread is b8. Oh well, keep lit about literature.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:17:41 2015 No.6460662 >>6460645 lol

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:18:48 2015 No.6460669 >>6460634 This is correct but it doesn't go quite far enough: things happen for reasons we can't comprehend because there is no meaning to what happens. For all suffering, and all joy, there is no purpose.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:18:48 2015 No.6460670 >>6460649 >>6460662 same poster

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:19:31 2015 No.6460676 >>6460645 >Fry uses the problem of evil to explain his position >hur dur you can't say that he's using the problem of evil

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:19:37 2015 No.6460677 File: 5 KB, 360x129, 2015-04-26_23-26-31.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6460670

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:19:57 2015 No.6460682 >>6460670 >>6460645 same poster

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:20:04 2015 No.6460684 >>6460659 he's still right about the human position in relation to god. if i cant see the vastness i have no interest in it and im not going to take god's word on it. job has every reason to be angry at god.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:20:41 2015 No.6460686 sure if you can prove how it relates to scripture first

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:20:48 2015 No.6460687

>>6460634

>you cannot know nuffin
>this old book written by desert jews justifies children's leukemia

if god is so all knowing and all powerful why did he choose to express himself through the awkward medium of half literate shephards living in a backwater roman client state? Why should we just take all this on faith without empirical evidence?

I mean those idiots didn't even know the value of the number pi.

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:21:50 2015 No.6460694

>>6460634
I refuse to go on living my life, being confronted with injustices and tragedies not just to myself but to my fellow man, and accept it, because 'we cannot possibly know why they happen and therefore there are actual thought out reasons as to why we can never know'.

I refuse to take part in something as stupid as this.

It is the equivalent of someone punching you in the face, and instead of reacting to it, instead you choose to believe "he is punching me in the face for a reason I will never know", and therefore you let that person carry on doing it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:21:58 2015 No.6460695 >>6460684 >job has every reason to be angry at god. "i'm angry at you for giving me life, food, earth, and an eternal soul that is unharmed by the things that happen to my sinful flesh" ya ok

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:22:32 2015 No.6460698 >>6460634 That's not an answer to the problem. If God is all-powerful, why can't he achieve the same ends without gratuitous pain and suffering?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:22:58 2015 No.6460700 >>6460687 >he thinks you can be born without sin or without flesh haha

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:23:13 2015 No.6460703 >>6460698 lol he can't create a square circle either can he bb

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:23:45 2015 No.6460706

>>6460634
Fry wrecks that shit with the insect part

why the fuck would God create insects that literally eat out the eyes of children? what possible reason would he do that for?

and even if he had a reason for that, fuck a God who would inflict such suffering on people

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:23:59 2015 No.6460707 >>6460698 he can but he is unwilling besides, 'suffering' only makes a believer stronger and truer. jesus suffered, as did many of the kings of israel

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:24:03 2015 No.6460708 >>6460700 >he thinks Jesus didn't absolve man of Sin gud 1

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:24:13 2015 No.6460711 Yet another great thread about books Thanks Americans!

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:25:26 2015 No.6460718 >>6460684 did you even read the book of Job or do you just know the outline of it? I suggest you read verse 38 on down to the end because you missed the point.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:25:27 2015 No.6460719 All of you http://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/ Go here and fuck off from a literature board forever

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:25:30 2015 No.6460720 >>6460706 >muh suffering what happens in the mortal life isn't really that important. insects, animals, and most things that walk on the earth are corrupted by satan anyway. no use blaming god for satan's works -- that's what satan wants you to do

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:26:27 2015 No.6460723 File: 4 KB, 225x225, lowqb8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6460706

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:26:32 2015 No.6460725 >>6460708 if that were true then no one would be sinning. truth is we are sinners until we join jesus as his bride

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:27:03 2015 No.6460728 >>6460720 So God blames Satan for his blunders? The very fact that Satan is able to do as he does proves that God is an inefficient ruler.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:27:12 2015 No.6460729 >>6460708 What?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:27:56 2015 No.6460731 >>6460706 To test the faith of those children in order to determine if they deserve eternal life, obviously.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:28:03 2015 No.6460732 >>6460723 good argument

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:29:03 2015 No.6460740 RUSSELL BRAND REKTS FRY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Run1jpZvS4

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:29:06 2015 No.6460742 >>6460728 this is obviously b8.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:29:42 2015 No.6460744 >>6460728 >So God blames Satan for his blunders? what? >The very fact that Satan is able to do as he does proves that God is an inefficient ruler. how?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:30:29 2015 No.6460747 >>6460731 but why would he do it to certain children? a random selection of children? why does he not do this to everybody? why does he not have everyone undergo the same test of insects eating out their eyes to test their faith?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:31:30 2015 No.6460751 >>6460698 >>6460687 Ask Him, not people. People don't know His reasons.

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:31:54 2015 No.6460752

>>6460744
Because God whether he allows it or not, is incapable of preventing bad things happening to people, which are in no way to do with faith

I seem to be debating two arguments here, one is that Satan does bad things and God doesn't, and the other is that God does bad things to test faith

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:32:28 2015 No.6460754 >>6460687 >>this old book written by desert jews justifies children's leukemia You are lost to bourgeois notions of "security". The want only for what is passive and agreeable.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:32:39 2015 No.6460755 >>6460615 Hidden within theodicy is the desire for an absolute literal theocracy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:33:42 2015 No.6460762 File: 658 KB, 1280x1683, irritatinggentleman.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6460732 How can I argue with someone who posts facetiously? All I can do is pray for you my brother.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:33:48 2015 No.6460764 Religion is a meme, it should not be taken seriously.

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:35:11 2015 No.6460767

>>6460752
>is incapable

lol?

>of preventing bad things happening to people

'bad things'?

>one is that Satan does bad things and God doesn't, and the other is that God does bad things to test faith

it's kind of both. after all, jesus wouldn't have been sacrificed if it weren't for the actions of satan and his corrupting of men. ultimately it works towards god's purpose. satan defeats himself by sacrificing god so that man is redeemed before the father. sux 4 satan

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:35:41 2015 No.6460770 >All-knowing, all-powerful God >Has to ask Adam where he is Checkmate Christians.

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:37:01 2015 No.6460772

>>6460694
>I refuse to go on living my life, being confronted with injustices and tragedies not just to myself but to my fellow man, and accept it, because 'we cannot possibly know why they happen and therefore there are actual thought out reasons as to why we can never know'.
>I refuse to take part is something as stupid as this.
I say that this universe is as perfect as it can possibly be. What do you say to that?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:37:03 2015 No.6460773 >>6460645 >>6460649 >>6460662 >>6460670 >>6460677 >>6460682 Same poster

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:37:10 2015 No.6460774 >>6460770 FUCK YOU, DON'T YOU EVER, EVER TALK SHIT ABOUT CHRIST EVER AGAIN

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:37:35 2015 No.6460776

>>6460767
>lol?
How is this an argument?
>'bad things'?
You know, like bone cancer in children. Or tsunamis that wipe out 250,000 people. Or miscarriages that also kill the mother.

>it's kind of both. after all, jesus wouldn't have been sacrificed if it weren't for the actions of satan and his corrupting of men. ultimately it works towards god's purpose. satan defeats himself by sacrificing god so that man is redeemed before the father. sux 4 satan

So Satan is defeated, but God will carry on doing bad things?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:37:57 2015 No.6460777 File: 6 KB, 250x241, 1410046519529[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6460719 >those questions

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:39:18 2015 No.6460779 >>6460772 I don't disagree. But if this is as perfect as God deems to make it, then I refuse to take part in worshiping and thanking him for it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:40:17 2015 No.6460783 >>6460740 >"none of us can know if there is a god, but we can know that there is an us" nice assumption there, Russy boy

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:41:43 2015 No.6460786

>>6460776
>How is this an argument?

it has nothing to do with incapability

>You know, like bone cancer in children. Or tsunamis that wipe out 250,000 people. Or miscarriages that also kill the mother.

these are bad in your view, a liberalist humanist view. this is not god's view. what happens to the flesh is of no consequence. the flesh is sinful. consider that we were made in god's image, but now we exist in the current form we have. this happened after adam and eve disobeyed god and ingested sin into humanity. we can't escape sinning, and the sinning body is of no concern to god. so when these 'bad things' happen to sinful flesh, it could hardly be considered bad, really. the destruction of sin is good.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:42:39 2015 No.6460787 >>6460615 but anon! the video is nearly two and a half minutes long!

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:42:57 2015 No.6460788 >>6460776 God has never done a bad thing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:44:13 2015 No.6460792 >no one has posted based Fr Barron www.youtube.com/watch?v=07AWWJiyAU8

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:46:19 2015 No.6460797

>>6460786
>>6460788

They might not be "bad" to God. But they are bad to us. And I don't want to worship a God that intentionally does things to us that we classify as "bad".

If you, or anyone else thinks, that children born without entire limbs, or thousands of people killed by an earthquake, is not necessarily a bad thing because we are all sinners, I would have no choice but to think of you as a sociopath.

>>	ΟΥΤΙΣ Sun Apr 26 23:46:21 2015 No.6460798 Strange to behold, what blame these mortals can bring against godhead! For their ills, they assert, are from us, when they of themselves by their mad recklessness have pain far past what is fated! -Odyssey, Merrill's translation

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:46:26 2015 No.6460799

Didn't watch, but I would say if God does exist (which he does), it would be analogous as ants are to humans. Do we deign to save every ant's life we meet? If we were somehow able to converse with ants, would we not tell them how best to govern themselves?

As a consciously created entity or an independent being, god exists and he has done just that. I would recommend Abrahamic religions, particularly Islam, to understand this.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:47:36 2015 No.6460803 >>6460797 >But they are bad to us. so?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:48:53 2015 No.6460808 >>6460798 bone cancer in children is our fault

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:50:02 2015 No.6460814 >>6460803 Read the rest of the post. I made my belief pretty clear.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:51:13 2015 No.6460818 >>6460814 but why does it matter if you classify it as bad or not? why do you act like there's a choice other than between life with god or death with satan?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:52:36 2015 No.6460823 >>6460814 But that god gave you life and the choice for eternal life in the first place. Are you not thankful for this?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:54:15 2015 No.6460829 >>6460814 if i told you that the suffering ends sooner when jesus returns, would you go out immediately and preach the gospel to bring about that return?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:54:18 2015 No.6460830 And also, he's making the assertion that death is a bad thing, which, if you have any sort of thoughts about existence after life, you will understand to be utterly false

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:56:15 2015 No.6460838

>>6460818
I don't act like there's another choice. I ultimately refuse to worship the God of The Bible, or of any other religion that cannot and will not justify letting atrocities happen to people.

>>6460823
I would be lying if I said I was not sometimes grateful for my existence. But then I reflect on what else happens in the world, and I just cannot bring myself to worship God.
If I "burn in hell" for it, or I am punished, at least I will know that I am suffering for the right reasons - empathy with mankind.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:56:28 2015 No.6460839 >>6460808 I have covered this already. >>6460754 This resentment of yours is born from a shallow appreciation of the whole. Try to get over your anemic need for "security" and accept that suffering will always be a constancy.

>>	ΟΥΤΙΣ Sun Apr 26 23:58:38 2015 No.6460847 >>6460808 >people don't live forever ;_: Isn't that the whole point of Christianity?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:58:57 2015 No.6460848 >>6460818 >there's a choice other than between life with god or death with satan Because those choices themselves haven't proved their availability

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 23:59:17 2015 No.6460850 >>6460838 >empathy with mankind. being tricked by satan. jesus cares about mankind -- he's not going to hell for it

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:02:08 2015 No.6460862

>>6460850
How exactly am I being tricked by Satan?

I care about mankind too, but not through worshipping a God.

I care about mankind through my interaction and reflection of it. By having relationships with people and understanding that we are all here alive right now, and some are suffering and some are not, and some suffer on different levels.

I do not worship God. I am not saying I don't believe in God, but I do not want to worship him.

And unless some new information or evidence comes out, explaining with logical coherency why some things happen and other things do not, and why it is the will of God, then I will never worship him.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:02:37 2015 No.6460864 >>6460850 >he thinks he's above loving the lowest The more you move away from solidarity vainer you get. Friendly reminder.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:04:10 2015 No.6460868 >>6460850 >he thinks he's above loving the lowest The more you move away from solidarity the vainer you get. Friendly reminder.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:04:26 2015 No.6460869 >>6460862 you may care about mankind but you cannot save it. only jesus can do that, so why would you not worship him? if you look away from christ, you look towards satan. there's no way around it

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:04:36 2015 No.6460870 >>6460634 u cant know nuffin just believe it's for your own good :)

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:05:01 2015 No.6460872 >>6460862 What would you do if I said that Plato's cave allegory was simply analogous to a spiritual awakening and through philosophical dialectical inductive reasoning we are currently getting closer to God's existence, literally and metaphorically.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:07:04 2015 No.6460878 >>6460687 >>6460698 >>6460870 Part of Faith is submitting to the idea of a higher power. Something beyond your comprehension. If you can't do that then you'll never get it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:09:07 2015 No.6460887 File: 23 KB, 607x421, sonygger eating shit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >God is a big meany by my subjective views of morality, therefore he doesn't real and I hate him

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:09:32 2015 No.6460893

>>6460634
If that's the case, assuming equality on good and evil, then would be no amount of good one could do to get into Heaven. If the most evil of men's actions are not even a speck on God's radar, then the most good does not register to God either. If the most evil man to have ever existed was not hated by God, then no person has ever been condemned to Hell. If the most righteous person to have ever existed was not loved by God, then no person has ever been committed to Heaven. 100% of the human race, if our actions are so miniscule to God, has died and become nothing for eternity. Heaven and Hell do not exist, which means faith in God is pointless, and without our faith in God, then God no longer exists.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:10:03 2015 No.6460897
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>>6460878
The issue here is there are a living fuck ton of different things to submit to. 99.999999% of humans aren't even capable of the rational and the time to study all of these different faith based religions and denominations and sects within them to make any real conclusion besides a neurotic fleeting chasing of their whims.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:11:07 2015 No.6460903

>>6460872
The thing about the analogy of the cave is that man cannot set himself free. It isn't 'one prisoner realizes it's all an illusion' or 'one prisoner tries to escape'. Somebody else sets the prisoner free. For awhile, I was upset by the analogy because I had no way of knowing if I was in the cave or not. But we can never really know.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:11:29 2015 No.6460905

>>6460869

>you may care about mankind but you cannot save it.

Who said that it's his personal task to save it?

If anything his only task is to love.
To love simply and truly. That is enough.

But you keep damning your fellow man and putting yourself at a distance from them instead of embracing them despite their faults.

I'm sure that is exactly as Christ would have you act.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:11:49 2015 No.6460906

>>6460869
I don't worship Jesus because I don't worship God, For the exact reasons I have already stated.

If refusing to believe a God that appears irrational, cruel and hateful means I am looking towards Satan, then so be it.

>>6460872
Well when philosophers get closer to God I will listen, but for now I will take no part.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:12:49 2015 No.6460912 >>6460906 >If refusing to believe a God Sorry, I meant refusing to worship

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:13:39 2015 No.6460916 >>6460893 This is the reason that the way to heaven is through loving god and recognizing your own wrongdoings and not through some imaginary meter counting every good thing you do.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:15:45 2015 No.6460920 >>6460906 How is god cruel or irrational? Giving somebody you love more than anything the choice to be with you is not cruel.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:18:23 2015 No.6460928 >>6460920 He looks cruel and irrational to us because he intentionally allows things that we classify as bad to happen, without giving any reason as to why other than "you cannot know". I do not want to submit myself to a God that does these things.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:18:37 2015 No.6460930 I think it's pretty arrogant of Stephen Fry to just assume all evil and suffering in the world is God's fault and that we, as humanity, are 100% blameless.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:20:10 2015 No.6460937

>>6460903
No, the purpose of the analogy is to set up the two analogous dichotomies of light and vision and truth and knowledge. The entire purpose of the allegory was to liken 'good' (which I am conflating with a religious ideal, perhaps not too ineffectively) to the sun. You would understand this if you read The Republic.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:22:22 2015 No.6460944 >>6460906 >Well when philosophers get closer to God In my opinion, this has been the object of philosophy for over 2000 years. Only recently has the direction of philosophy been misdirected into the realm of tantivious superfluities.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:22:59 2015 No.6460947
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>>6460920
>call friend up, tell him we're going to retire in the bahama's
>he's super stoked, shows up to my house
>tell him we're going to take my truck to the airport, but he has to listen to what I say if he wants to stay with me to get to vacation
>grab my rope and start tying him up
>tie other end of the rope to my truck
>tell friend if he doesn't complain on the way there he gets a free ticket and mansion to the bahama's
>start driving
>he is in extreme pain being knocked around by the ride, he says he wants to be let go
>tell him if he refuses to ride and rejects my gracious offer I am going to set him on fire or ditch him in the desert
>continue my journey, perplexed that he is not grateful for my generous offer

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:23:28 2015 No.6460951 >>6460903 And besides, in the allegory he sets himself free... But that aspect of the allegory is hardly important, I don't see why it should be.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:24:12 2015 No.6460955 >I have greater moral/ethical authority than a hypothetical omnipotent unmoved mover Ok

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:24:36 2015 No.6460956 File: 20 KB, 350x392, 1367119061945.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6460634 >millions of children die in pain and misery before they turn one but it's all according to god's plan kek

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:26:23 2015 No.6460965

>>6460930

I've always found him to be an interesting sort but let's be honest here: Christians haven't exactly been kind to homosexuals in the past. So it kind of makes sense why he would hold a grudge against the concept of God in general. They have spent millennia demonizing and shitting on his kind so it's no shock that he's over the whole thing in general. It's a shame - a tragedy, even - but it's understandable in a way.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:27:15 2015 No.6460966 >>6460956 see >>6460887

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:27:50 2015 No.6460967 >>6460930 The evil and suffering he talks about in the video cannot possibly be blamed on us.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:28:14 2015 No.6460970 >>6460955 >I have greater moral/ethical authority than the hypothetical assertions of barbaric semites Now you are on topic

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:28:50 2015 No.6460972 >>6460847 are you a fucking lunatic?

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:28:57 2015 No.6460974
File: 440 KB, 1600x1283, 919977918.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I never approach this question from the perspective that God must be false because, because he allows pain and injustice. Christian's seem to have a million escape clauses for that. I just mention the fact that faith in something so specific as religious narrative from 2000 years ago, in roughly 40,000 years of human religious practice, that was spread to the Western would on the whims of come Roman emperor begs you to example the incidental nature of just going along with what you were born into, let alone the concept of faith itself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:28:59 2015 No.6460976 >>6460956 If it lives it will suffer. Lose your naivety and finally accept this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:30:02 2015 No.6460978 >>6460974 *examine not example

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:30:02 2015 No.6460979 >>6460976 thats not the answer to the question the question being why do some children suffer bone cancer and others dont? why do some babies die of miscarriages?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:30:03 2015 No.6460980 >>6460970 It doesn't matter what God/whatever we're talking about, it's absurd to assert that you have a superior view or capacity to that of a prime mover.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:31:19 2015 No.6460984

>>6460947
Do you have an explanation for why people suffer?

Also, hell is just seperation from God. If you truly want to be with God, you'll always thank him and always love him. You'll pray for forgiveness and do your best to stay away from sin. If you don't truly yearn for god, you won't be with him. The fire stuff was made up afterwards.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:31:21 2015 No.6460985

>>6460980
There's many different "prime movers' so yes context is very important. Without it we could not have any discussion about monotheistic religion at all, for or against, everyone would have to be quiet about it. And we all know that's not going to happen anytime soon.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:32:12 2015 No.6460988 >>6460980 B-b-but muh insects that burrow into childrens' eyes! Why do they exist?!

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:32:45 2015 No.6460990 >>6460980 i dont care if my view is superior or inferior i can only create my view on what i have experienced and seen fuck God. he might exist. but fuck him. absolute fucking lunatic.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:33:07 2015 No.6460992 >>6460979 Tell me why these things happen in a world without god.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:33:45 2015 No.6460994 >>6460988 and its funny because all you can do is trivialize the argument, just like i can say >muh sky fairy, u can neva know nuffin!

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:34:00 2015 No.6460997 >>6460990 tip

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:34:57 2015 No.6461001

>>6460979
because thats what people do. They live and sometimes they get sick. It depends on a lot of things, environment, genetic predisposition , etc. But if the nature of your question is why do good things happen to bad people and bad thing happen to good people I would refer you back to Job. There is no answer that you could understand that would satisfy you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:35:06 2015 No.6461002 >>6460997 you're the tipper for resorting to mythological tales to justify why bone cancer happens >a bad angel called satan made us all sinners!

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:35:06 2015 No.6461003 >>6460990 How is the reason the universe is instead of isn't an 'absolute lunatic'? Is a triangle also insane? How about the number two?

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:35:37 2015 No.6461005

>>6460984
That's still a punishment, if it wasn't hell would not be any different than heaven. To even imply the difference between the two implies one is better than the other, to receive the lesser is clearly an intended actions because of other things. It is a punishment.

>>6460992
There is no why, stop being such a prideful creature and accept there are things out of our control.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:35:55 2015 No.6461009 >>6460994 Let's say god removes the insects, then he removes cancer. Eventually our argument is how any God could allow the bubbles in our champagne to disappear.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:36:08 2015 No.6461011 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48S0cPbgC1w

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:36:16 2015 No.6461013

>>6460979

We don't know what manner of suffering will befall the living, all we know is that which lives will know suffering.

Citing certain examples means nothing. Just resentment over a truth that subsists with or without our approval: If it lives it will suffer.

You might as well make your peace with this when you can because you nor anyone else will ever know anything but this.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:37:03 2015 No.6461016

>>6460994
Seriously though if we're going to accept, for this argument, that here is an all-powerful force of some sort that created EVERYTHING as far as we know, how the fuck are we even supposed to grasp any reason it might actually have for why those things happen? It would be like asking an ant to explain why people spray it with pesticides.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:37:05 2015 No.6461017 >>6461001 Exactly. Job is incapable of providing a sound answer. Therefore I refuse to worship God. I do not deny his existence, I just refuse to spend my life thanking him.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:38:00 2015 No.6461020 >>6461002 Bone cancer happens for biological reasons. It happens to good people and bad people, unhealthy people and healthy people. You may as well ask why I have brown eyes or why he's tall.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:39:28 2015 No.6461021 >>6461009 But he doesn't remove the formers. >>6461013 Suffering without justification is not something I want to make peace with. If I ever make peace with that I know I will be truly braindead.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:39:31 2015 No.6461022 >>6460990 >I told God to create the heaven and the earth and he did it the absolute madman

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:39:47 2015 No.6461023
File: 202 KB, 1280x986, 1280px-Sacrifice_of_Isaac-Caravaggio_%28Uffizi%29.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Was it okay for God to tell Abraham to kill his own child? Everything turned out alright in the end, since it was revealed that God was only testing him like an insecure girlfriend - but would it still have been okay if Abraham ended up actually doing it?

Relatedly, was it okay for Abraham to petition God to spare the few righteous individuals of Sodom rather than destroy the city entirely? What made him think he knew better than God?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:39:58 2015 No.6461024 >>6461005 If god accepted you into his kingdom whether you wanted to or not you would compare it to a prison.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:40:28 2015 No.6461026 >>6461020 Why does God make some children biologically inclined to get bone cancer, and not others?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:41:13 2015 No.6461029 >>6461026 >please answer this question that only God can definitively answer Ok

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:41:28 2015 No.6461031 >>6461022 >I told

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:42:38 2015 No.6461035 >>6461029 Exactly. God does not provide an answer. I therefore refuse to worship and thank him.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:43:01 2015 No.6461036

>>6460634
>Things happen for reasons we do not and cannot ever know.

Whenever there's a strong argument posited against Christianity, "God works in mysterious ways" is always the answer. Make fun of Hitchens all you want, but this is totalitarianism. People actually think Christianity is immune to criticism because of this idiotic argument.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:43:09 2015 No.6461038 File: 537 KB, 499x643, madman.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6461031

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:43:37 2015 No.6461039 >>6461035 So why are you still here unless you want to be proven wrong?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:43:37 2015 No.6461040 >>6461024 No I would not. Do you have something to say or are you just going to continue to deflect and ignore legitimate criticism?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:44:20 2015 No.6461044 >>6461039 I would love to be proven wrong. But there is not one argument I have encountered that is in any way reasonable or sufficient.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:45:14 2015 No.6461050 >>6461036 >Totalitarian rule under the greatest of all possible beings What's the issue here?

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:45:18 2015 No.6461051

>>6461021
The point is that suffering always fucking happens, god or not. Suffering that happens to good or bad people is t a result of what they've done, but random little things about the universe. Bugs evolve to burrow in people's eyes because its convenient, mistakes happen in genetics, etc. Christianity isn't concerned with these kinds of things because they don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Somebody who actually longs for god will live through it, somebody who doesn't will get mad at god. And god doesn't force the people who don't want to be with him to be with him forever even though he loves you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:47:19 2015 No.6461058 >>6461051 >The point is that suffering always fucking happens, god or not There would be no suffering if god did not wish it

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:47:30 2015 No.6461060 >>6461044 Easy. God is an asshole. Or there are several gods. One is good the the other is an asshole. But yes the problem fails if you choose your definition of god is a all powerful benevolent ruler.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:47:40 2015 No.6461061

>>6461021

>If I ever make peace with that I know I will be truly braindead.

>braindead

These are egotistical vagaries speaking.

This is far larger than either of us and far larger than our combined understanding. Humble yourself and shoulder what you must, because this is not a truth that either of us can ever outpace. It will know both of us in the end.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:48:29 2015 No.6461063

>>6461051
Many people that have longed for god have not lived through suffering, I don't see why it's your place to judge other peoples struggles in the first place. I'm assuming your Christian, so please don't trivialize human suffering into an argument of, "All who failed just didn't try hard enough" you're asserting all kinds of things about all kinds of millions and billions of people speaking like that, and if god asked you wouldn't be able to answer for a bit of it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:48:34 2015 No.6461064 >>6461044 As was stated previously there is no reason to suffering. There is no logic to human misery. at least not one that we can understand. You have to take faith on faith.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:49:06 2015 No.6461068 >>6461060 I am looking at God from a worshiping sense. I guess I would call myself agnostic, if I had to call myself anything. I can acknowledge that God exists, or multiple Gods. I just don't want to worship them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:49:25 2015 No.6461069 >>6461064 But everything happens for a reason dawg

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:49:46 2015 No.6461071 >>6461068 But he died for you, Anon, that you might have eternal life.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:50:29 2015 No.6461072

If suffering is such a problem for you, how much more does it sadden the heart of God who knows all?

God won't end suffering. It's the outcome of man's choice of claiming they know better than God in the garden. Without suffering in the world we would never know the true consequences of sin.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:50:54 2015 No.6461073 >>6461071 If eternal life means spending it in his company, then no thank you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:51:01 2015 No.6461074 What place would we have to question the morals of a being that existed before morals? Is God the ultimate Ubermensch?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:51:48 2015 No.6461079 >>6461073 But he's behind you right now

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:51:56 2015 No.6461080 >>6461072 miscarriages bone cancer insects that burrow into the eyes of children so, basically, what God does is use random people as pawns so that the others fear and worship him? fuck off

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:52:52 2015 No.6461086 >>6461071 That's like starting a housefire and expecting to be praised for putting it out

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:52:56 2015 No.6461088 >>6461079 He's always watching me masturbate...

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:53:14 2015 No.6461090 >>6461063 And many who have suffered have longed for god.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:53:24 2015 No.6461091 >>6461073 Yeah, nobody actually thinks like that if they're completely honest with themselves. Deep down, you wouldn't turn down eternal life.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:53:28 2015 No.6461092 >>6461088 Yet he still somehow loves you

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:53:39 2015 No.6461093 On the topic of these child eye burrowing insects are there any insects that actually specifically burrow into just the eyes of human children? Or is it just insects that burrow into soft parts of bodies of any sort?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:53:48 2015 No.6461095 Perhaps tragedies serve as wakeup calls.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:53:56 2015 No.6461096 >>6461092 I doubt it seeing as he gave me bone cancer last week.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:54:29 2015 No.6461099 >>6461093 Anon do not buy spear ants to burrow into your dick, it is a bad idea -t. God

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:54:38 2015 No.6461100

>all these posts getting ignored but christfags are still making original posts asserting things over again
We need a janitor on the board, this isn't discussion it's proselytizing

>>6461090
So you're going to retract your "somebody who longs for god will live through it". Stop attempting to convert, argue and keep a consistent train of thought for one fucking post for the love of god

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:55:03 2015 No.6461103 >>6461093 http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/01/eye-burrowing-worms-national-t.html

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:55:09 2015 No.6461105

>>6461080
>strawmanning my post this hard

nice

We willingly brought these things upon ourselves. God created a perfect world without suffering and we (man) rejected that.

God uses suffering but we caused it. What I was saying is that without suffering, we wouldn't know why we shouldn't do evil which is necessary for the beings God wants us to be.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:55:11 2015 No.6461106 >>6461096 Well to be fair you were jerking it to some pretty messed up shit the other week.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:55:35 2015 No.6461108

>>6461080
He's saying that suffering entered the world as a consequence of original sin, which humanity committed. Sin and pain and death are a result of the great prideful sin of humanity wishing to be equal to God. This is a sin because it goes against the natural order of things, for no creature can surpass its creator.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:56:36 2015 No.6461111 >>6461023 Please answer my question I am seriously considering leaving my faith because of this

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:56:38 2015 No.6461112 >>6461105 Still doesn't refute what I already said.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:57:00 2015 No.6461115 >>6461103 >Africa Not even once.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:57:35 2015 No.6461119 >>6461111 >asking for reason/proof when faced with a question of faith Good one Thomas

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:57:38 2015 No.6461121 >>6461111 read Fear and Trembling

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:57:59 2015 No.6461123 >>6461086 It's more like building a beautiful house only for your ignorant children to burn it down and then letting yourself die just so that your children can all live in it again

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:58:20 2015 No.6461126 >use epicurus' problem of evil b-b-but god is beyond our understanding! we can't possibly conceive his omnipotence! >the bible is supposedly the word of the lord doesn't work both ways, friends.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:58:31 2015 No.6461127 >suffering is all part of God's plan :) If your theology makes the Nazis instruments of divine will, you should consider revising your theology.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:58:57 2015 No.6461128 File: 164 KB, 640x885, .jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6461093 Thanks God

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 00:59:13 2015 No.6461130 >>6461127 GOD WIN'S LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:00:03 2015 No.6461134 >>6461112 Don't bother they don't argue, they just repeat canned quotes and phrases like robots.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:00:16 2015 No.6461135 Christfags ITT: GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUSSSSSS WAYYYYYYYS

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:00:18 2015 No.6461136 >>6461127 It honestly took much longer for Nazis to come up than I had anticipated.

>>	ΟΥΤΙΣ Mon Apr 27 01:00:18 2015 No.6461137 >>6461096 Almost 50% of people will cancer in their lifetime, and half of those will die from it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:01:17 2015 No.6461139 >>6461106 Yeah. Well, I am thankful I didn't get penis cancer at least.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:01:56 2015 No.6461140 >>6461137 >25% of all people will die from cancer

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:02:17 2015 No.6461143 >>6461137 You're a good chap, God.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:02:29 2015 No.6461144 >>6460640 nor is your mother

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:02:36 2015 No.6461145

>>6461111
Well, remember God's own words.

"Because you did not withhold from me even your only son..."

God must be the most important thing to a person. Faith must be the most important thing to a person. You must believe God above all, and trust him. His designs always tend towards good, even in the face of evil.

Having such faith, I would say yes, it was okay for God to ask. Abraham trusted God out of faith- and in fact even more than faith, Abraham actually had evidence of God's blessings and power because he had seen evidence of both. So Abraham knew to trust in God, even if the command made no sense to him. He believed in the covenant God made, and believed that God would not forsake his promise, no matter what happened.

That story is about faith. It is about having faith when there is no reason to have faith, for faith is "the revelation of things unlooked for, the belief in things not seen."

Incidentally I think Kierkegaard spergs out WAY too hard over it. It's not nearly as troublesome as he makes it out to be.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:02:45 2015 No.6461146 >>6461135 It's okay to be afraid, anon. We all are sometimes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:03:02 2015 No.6461149 File: 86 KB, 900x900, photo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6460615 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07AWWJiyAU8

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:03:18 2015 No.6461154 >>6461128 that IS FUCKING HORRIFYING

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:04:18 2015 No.6461160 >>6461146 >vague and nonsensical appeal to emotion Are you Merlin?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:04:33 2015 No.6461163 >>6461154 You ain't never seen a botfly before boy?

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:04:38 2015 No.6461164

>>6461111
>>6461023
I'm answering your question because of your sweet quads, I doubt you're of true faith if you refer to God as an "insecure girlfriend"

Most of Genesis is allegorical. as the rest of the Bible is basically the story of the descendants of Abraham the main point you're supposed to draw from it is that Abraham was a man of true faith. but it serves as a nice parallel to God sacrificing his son in the new testament don't you think?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:04:45 2015 No.6461166 >>6461023 >was it okay for Abraham to petition God to spare the few righteous individuals of Sodom rather than destroy the city entirely? Yes. Remember that one supposed etymology for Israel is 'wrestles with God'

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:04:50 2015 No.6461167 >>6461135 It's impossible for an omnipotent being to be wrong

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:05:24 2015 No.6461171 >>6460634 and who wrote that book?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:05:27 2015 No.6461172 >>6460878 i'll never get schizophrenic visions either. it's just strange when it occurs among otherwise sane and intelligent people

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:06:02 2015 No.6461175

>>6461023
The whole point is that Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac. This sums it up.

“Without risk there is no faith. Faith is precisely the contradiction between the infinite passion of the individual’s inwardness and the objective uncertainty. …Without risk there is no faith, and the greater the risk the greater the faith; the more objective certainty, the less inwardness (for inwardness is precisely subjectivity), and the less objective certainty the more profound the possible inwardness.”

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:06:26 2015 No.6461177 File: 62 KB, 1600x1067, 9th-wonder.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] u gonna make it, homies be good to each other and keep it pushin

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:06:28 2015 No.6461178 >>6461167 So what? That doesn't excuse him for being a cunt.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:06:59 2015 No.6461182 >>6460615 Are there really genuinely religious people on /lit/? hahahahahhahaha what the actual fuck

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:07:14 2015 No.6461183

>>6461146
“The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear.”
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

“The following of authority is the denial of intelligence. It may help us temporarily to cover up our difficulties and problems; but to avoid a problem is only to intensify it, and in the process, self-knowledge and freedom are abandoned.”
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

“All ideologies are idiotic, whether religious or political, for it is conceptual thinking, the conceptual word, which has so unfortunately divided man.”
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:07:28 2015 No.6461185 >>6461135 fedorafags ITT: Things happen which I consider bad so therefore god doesn't exist and I hate him. >2015 >believing in absolute morality

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:07:34 2015 No.6461186 >>6461160 Nope, I'm God lel Stay mad fat nerds

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:07:35 2015 No.6461187 >>6461178 How can you be a cunt if you never do anything wrong and you love everyone? Unless the speaker is resentful of course.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:08:13 2015 No.6461188 >>6461182 tips fedora

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:08:37 2015 No.6461190

>>6461182
It's essentially a reactionary movement because people want to distance themselves from the 13 years old fedora atheist movement.

Which is fair enough, but what is hilarious is their elementary attempts to spurt vague and incredibly outdated proofs of GOd.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:09:16 2015 No.6461198

>>6461111
Pagan religion is defined by formulaic practice: God is the forces of nature, divided in mind, in conflict and harmony. One can petition the gods for boons, in exchange for sacrifice, though the gods are fickle and will not necessarily offer the boon. Regardless, one must make the exchange, as the gods rarely both with men.

Abrahamic (and, more generally, Atenic/Monotheistic) religion is defined by organic process: God is the singular, unique force that creates not just the aspects of nature but nature itself. It is because of his unity that his primary characteristic is omnipresence, and it is because of his omnipresence that God takes at one and the same time a distance from his creation and a complete immersion in them. In the event that a being can communicate directly with God, he finds himself not the subject of a mere master of fate but an estranged Mother.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:09:22 2015 No.6461200 >>6461149 BASED A R R O N

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:09:51 2015 No.6461201

>>6461178
Doesn't it though? If an all powerful being that existed before any conscious creature existed to impose a framework of morality how would such a being fit into said limited framework? God existed before morals, therefore God is outside morality.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:10:02 2015 No.6461202

Why does everyone assume that an all-knowing all-powerful being would naturally be benevolent?

Has any autocrat in human history ever been benevolent? Has lacking benevolence ever been an impediment to the exercise of power or the pursuit of prosperity?

Fuck off with this shit.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:10:16 2015 No.6461207

>>6461187
We've been over this.

He does things which we consider wrong, intentionally, without any explanation.

Who in their right mind would thank someone for this?

Please read the thread before you reply as I'm sure your reply will have already also been covered.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:10:22 2015 No.6461209 >>6461183 >Jiddu Krishnamurti I get it you are new to reading up on theology cool m8 cool.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:11:11 2015 No.6461212 >>6461183 Nothing exists without concepts. Concepts undergird reality. Try again.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:11:19 2015 No.6461213 The moral man is necessarily narrow in that he knows no other enemy than the 'immoral' man. 'He who is not moral is immoral!' and accordingly reprobate, despicable, etc. Therefore, the moral man can never comprehend the egoist.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:11:28 2015 No.6461214 >>6461185 >fedora boogeyman Never said I didn't think he existed.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:12:16 2015 No.6461219 >>6461202 I don't get why everyone thinks God is an all-knowing all-powerful being. It makes far more sense if he's as inept as any one of us.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:12:33 2015 No.6461221 File: 11 KB, 197x256, oldmaninsorrow.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Mods please delete this thread and make another sticky.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:12:45 2015 No.6461222 >>6460928 you don't want to submit yourself to a god that can save humanity you'd rather submit yourself to the being that causes suffering rather than just allows it

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:12:49 2015 No.6461224 >>6461149 >almost every major theologian, from St. Paul and St. Augustine, all the way to CS Lewis kek

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:12:59 2015 No.6461225 >>6461212 lel you must have skipped about 300 years of philosophy concepts are created and filled with representations of perception. there are no concepts without experience. try again

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:13:03 2015 No.6461226 >>6460984 >Do you have an explanation for why people suffer? Who cares? Does it need one? Suffering is the most senseless of things. So mankind dreamed up a vengeful god to explain why they suffer. Read on the Genealogy of Morals, pleb.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:13:15 2015 No.6461227 >>6461219 Then what possible reason would I have for worshiping one who constantly blunders and causes immense suffering? I can acknowledge his existence, but I will never thank or worship him.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:13:29 2015 No.6461230 >>6461221 >please stop discussing the main character of the most printed book on earth

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:13:59 2015 No.6461235 >>6461219 For the purpose of the argument God has to be all-knowing and all-powerful because he could apparently stop all suffering whenever he felt like it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:14:20 2015 No.6461236 >>6461222 God causes suffering as well as humans. Some suffering is obviously beyond our control, e.g. miscarriages and bone cancer in children, insects that burrow into eyes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:14:29 2015 No.6461239 >>6461213 /thread

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:14:32 2015 No.6461240

>>6460905
>Who said that it's his personal task to save it?

he did

>I'm sure that is exactly as Christ would have you act.

christ would have me act in accordance with his spirit. however that makes me act is not up to me nor my concern, only that i allow it

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:14:45 2015 No.6461241 >>6460799 nice bait faggot

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:15:32 2015 No.6461243 >>6461236 satan causes suffering. god does not. god causes redemption and eternal life

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:15:48 2015 No.6461244 >>6461225 le greatest or most perfect conceivable island meme To think you called that other guy behind the time

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:15:50 2015 No.6461245 File: 59 KB, 456x567, Plato-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6461225 I didn't skip it, I just realize it's incorrect.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:16:17 2015 No.6461247 >>6461243 >satan boogeyman we have already been through this read the fucking thread

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:16:51 2015 No.6461251 >>6461219 Bullshit. God could have done all the things he's known for with a fraction of omnipotence. >muh all knowing all capable deity is just unimaginative barbaric theism

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:17:03 2015 No.6461253 >>6461243 >satan causes suffering 'I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.' -Isaiah 45:7

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:17:13 2015 No.6461255 >>6461243 >eternal life literally the worst thing that could possibly happen

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:17:21 2015 No.6461256 >>6461241 >I can't refute you so I will call your post bait and ingenious tactic. I bet you go to harvard or something. faggot

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:18:03 2015 No.6461257 >>6461247 understand the thread >>6461253 one out of context bible quote?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:18:05 2015 No.6461258 >>6461244 >imagination has to utilize conceptual thinking get a load of this retard

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:18:23 2015 No.6461259 Eh, I would gladly go and engage in the intellectual excercise of disproving Fry's argument, but then again, I sort of do live in the notion that god of this world is a miscreated psychopath, so it probably wouldn't be too genuine.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:19:08 2015 No.6461265 >>6461255 literally the best thing. it's not just "hey i get to exist as myself right now but in some other place, forever"

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:19:22 2015 No.6461268 >>6461240 >christ would have me act in accordance with his spirit. however that makes me act is not up to me nor my concern, only that i allow it So you have a flair for rhetoric. That's nice. You are still damning instead of embracing.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:19:45 2015 No.6461270
File: 196 KB, 858x952, Paradiso_Canto_31.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6461247
If you'd read the thread, you'd realize that the point about suffering in this world has already been answered. The world after this one contains no suffering, and it will last forever. Whatever we suffer in this life will be nothing compared to the joy we know in the next. In fact, the joy of Paradise is so great it makes even the worst sort of suffering one can endure in this world insignificant to a tremendous degree.

I think the flaw in agnostic/atheist conceptions of suffering and evil is this forgetfulness of the afterlife.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:20:41 2015 No.6461273 >>6460634 Wait, do people on /lit/ actually buy these circular non-answers?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:20:44 2015 No.6461274 >>6461270 JESUS HIMSELF SAID PARADISE IS ON THIS EARTH

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:20:48 2015 No.6461275 >>6461268 i am embracing christ, because he is the truth and reality. only christ saves. i do not damn humanity, only ask that they too embrace christ and end suffering

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:21:07 2015 No.6461277 >>6461256 4/10, you're losing me

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:22:07 2015 No.6461279

>>6461257
Here's context in my preferred translation

45 Thus said Jehovah, To His anointed, to Cyrus, Whose right hand I have laid hold on, To subdue nations before him, Yea, loins of kings I loose, To open before him two-leaved doors, Yea, gates are not shut:
2 `I go before thee, and crooked places make straight, Two-leaved doors of brass I shiver, And bars of iron I cut asunder,
3 And have given to thee treasures of darkness, Even treasures of secret places, So that thou knowest that I, Jehovah, Who am calling on thy name -- [am] the God of Israel.
4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, And of Israel My chosen, I call also thee by thy name, I surname thee, And thou hast not known Me.
5 I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else, Except Me there is no God, I gird thee, and thou hast not known Me.
6 So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else,
7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'
8 Drop, ye heavens, from above, And clouds do cause righteousness to flow, Earth openeth, and they are fruitful, Salvation and righteousness spring up together, I, Jehovah, have prepared it.
9 Wo [to] him who is striving with his Former, (A potsherd with potsherds of the ground!) Doth clay say to its Framer, `What dost thou?' And thy work, `He hath no hands?'
10 Wo [to] him who is saying to a father, `What dost thou beget?' Or to a wife, `What dost thou bring forth?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:22:07 2015 No.6461280 >>6461265 non-existence is preferable to any possible form of existence

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:22:12 2015 No.6461281 >>6461259 Here's your (you), but please try to not be an adolescent attention-seeker on a Simian Samba chatgroup

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:22:14 2015 No.6461282 >>6461274 He also said "My Kingdom is not of this world."

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:23:40 2015 No.6461283 >>6461185 >believes in god >doesn't believe in objective morality hahahahaha, ahhh christfags. never change, my darlings

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:23:53 2015 No.6461284 >>6461258 >God isn't a concept Ok

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:24:00 2015 No.6461285 >48 posters So I reckon there are 30 people who are ambivalent and 9 christfags and 9 fedorafags ITT

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:25:52 2015 No.6461292

>>6461230
In every medium the most widely printed/sold/produced is usually the shittiest. Same applies here. I wouldn't encourage call of duty discussion on /v/, or shit pop on /mu/ and so on. Too bad all the devoted Christfags don't discuss all of the good and complex christian works and instead like to spend all day posturing over a large collection of parables.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:25:54 2015 No.6461293

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHHHAHAHHAH

TWENTY FIFTEEN

USING THE SAME ARGUMENT FOR GOD'S MONSTROSITY OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN ONE THREAD, AND EXPECTING PEOPLE TO NOT SEE IT

HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA

CHRISTFAGS HAVE LITERALLY NO ANSWER TO WHY GOD LET'S SUFFERING THAT IS NOT OUR FAULT HAPPEN

LITERALLY NOTHING, EXCEPT OF COURSE

"U CANNOT NO NUFFIN BOYS!"

FUCKING KILL YOURSELVES

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:26:04 2015 No.6461294

>>6461279
>7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

how does this contradict what i said? god creates all, all is god, satan becomes corrupt, causes evil, corrupts humanity, causes sin to enter the world, god allows it as it is in accordance with his plan, when his plan is fulfilled, evil is destroyed along with sin/suffering

what i don't understand is not wanting to worship a god who can end suffering and instead drifting towards the being who causes it, rather than allows it to happen

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:26:07 2015 No.6461295 >>6461283 God doesn't imply morality moron.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:26:09 2015 No.6461296 >>6461281 Thank you for being such a considerate person to remind me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:26:54 2015 No.6461300 >>6461282 HE ALSO SAID THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:27:26 2015 No.6461303 >>6461293 >IS NOT OUR FAULT in being sinners it is our fault and so it remains our fault until the son of man comes

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:27:27 2015 No.6461304

>>6461275

>i do not damn humanity

You're nearing delusion if you think that this is truly the case. You have been doing this continually throughout the thread.

There is no point in replying to this because I can tell that yours is a position so militant that it's almost impossible for you to see the huge amounts of egotism that are inherent within it.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:27:40 2015 No.6461306

>>6461270
That's still suffering. It has not been established why any of that is necessary, the entire thing is dependent on a lot of different assumptions that all depend on each other. When you distill it down there's no reason why a god needs to allow any suffering in the first place, to even imply that may be an argument against him power in the first place.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:28:18 2015 No.6461308 >>6461303 SOME MYTHICAL MAN AND WOMAN ATE AN APPLE WE ALL DESERVE TO SUFFER IMMENSE PAIN AND TRAGEDY THANKS GOD AHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHA

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:28:38 2015 No.6461310 >>6461304 >You're nearing delusion if you think that this is truly the case. i cannot damn humanity. only god can damn humanity. humanity damns itself if it does not open towards christ

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:29:56 2015 No.6461314 >>6461308 we all deserve to live an eternal life with god >>6461310 rather: humanity allows its own damnation

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:30:15 2015 No.6461315 DAILY REMINDER JESUS WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:30:57 2015 No.6461318 >>6461308 >APPLE Plen.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:31:08 2015 No.6461319

>>6461306
Suffering is a consequence of the misuse of free will. Original Sin, which is where all suffering ultimately comes from (even insects that burrow into children's eyes) came about because humans had free will. Original Sin didn't just change human nature, it altered the natural order of the cosmos.

This of course leads us to wonder why God would even give someone free will in the first place, which is an entirely different question.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:32:03 2015 No.6461321 >>6461314 GOD DESERVES TO LIVE AN ETERNAL LIFE ON EARTH FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:32:18 2015 No.6461322 >>6461295 he doesn't imply it, no- he creates it

>>	ΟΥΤΙΣ Mon Apr 27 01:32:43 2015 No.6461323 >>6461140 That's about right, at least in the U.S. >>6461143 Yeah, dying sucks

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:33:05 2015 No.6461325 >>6461293 >a wall of caps and nervous laughter It's very telling how defensive anon like this get when confronted with that which they cannot know. Speaks volumes about their own inflated sense of self, really.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:33:07 2015 No.6461326 >>6461321 >HE HAS DONE sacrifice his only son so that the living god may live within us?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:33:08 2015 No.6461327 >>6461294 The notion that everyone who doesn't worship god must be of satan is a "with us or against us" mentality typical of extremism

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:33:19 2015 No.6461329 Does /lit/ seriously think they're smarter than Stephen Fry?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:34:33 2015 No.6461332 >>6461326 SACRIFICE MANY HUMAN BEINGS WITH IMMENSE INJUSTICES AND PAIN SO THAT OTHER HUMAN BEINGS MAY BOW DOWN TO HIS INCOMPETENCE WHAT ABOUT GOD SACRIFICING OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS? JUST SO WE KNOW THAT WE ARE ALL INHERENTLY FLAWED

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:34:41 2015 No.6461334 >>6461327 that's literally the case though. god created humanity in his image, but we need to be restored to that image. there is nothing else other than god

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:34:48 2015 No.6461336 >>6461308 >more nervous laughter

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:35:33 2015 No.6461337 >>6461325 HAAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHH LITERALLY U CANNOT KNOW NUFFIN AGAIN AND AGAIN

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:35:44 2015 No.6461339 >>6461329 Fry is an amusing fellow and a fairly good poet, but he's no philosopher, and he's certainly no theologian.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:36:34 2015 No.6461342 >>6461336 YES BECAUSE IM NERVOUS OF 4CHAN CHRISTPOSTERS CIRCULAR REASONING GIVE ME KIERKEGAARD AND MAYBE GIVE ME NIETZSCHE AND MAYBE YOUR STUPID ASS? HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:36:38 2015 No.6461343 >>6461337 [laughing nervously]

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:36:40 2015 No.6461344

>>6461332
he didn't sacrifice them he just cleansed the earth of sin. he sacrificed his son, literally spilled his blood for the purpose of redemption. that is sacrifice

in any case, the soul lives on and waits for judgment, so the death of the flesh on earth is nothing to hate god about, considering he allowed for us to live as a soul in the afterlife

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:37:34 2015 No.6461348 >>6461339 HE DOESN'T NEED TO BE YOU DO REALISE SOME PEOPLE READ BOOKS AND GET THEIR IDEAS FROM THESE BOOKS? THEY DIDNT JUST FALL ONTO THEIR LAPS

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:38:02 2015 No.6461352 >>6461329 >Stephen John Fry is an English comedian, actor, writer, presenter, and activist and has a BA in English Literature

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:38:06 2015 No.6461353 >>6461326 You mean sacrifice himself to himself in order to pay a debt to Satan

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:38:34 2015 No.6461358 >>6461353 in order to defeat satan

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:39:46 2015 No.6461363 >>6461342 >all this desperate egotism Okay.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:40:26 2015 No.6461366 >>6461344 HE TORMENTS SOULS BY THE SUFFERING OF THE FLESH HE ALSO TORMENTS SOULS WITH BIOLOGICAL, INNATE MENTAL ILLNESS

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:42:02 2015 No.6461372 >>6461363 >implying religion is not the ultimate egotism

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:42:23 2015 No.6461373

>>6461366
>HE TORMENTS SOULS BY THE SUFFERING OF THE FLESH

no that is sin that torments us and turns us away from him. our soul drifts further from the tree of life towards the tree of knowledge. it was from the tree of life that god intended us to eat, so he placed it in the centre of the garden of eden. our purpose is to eat of that fruit. jesus is the new tree of life

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:43:59 2015 No.6461377 >>6461373 BECAUSE CREATING INSECTS THAT BURROW INTO THE EYES OF CHILDREN IS ALL A PART OF GOD'S GREAT AND JUST PLAN BUT NO EXPLANATION NEEDED, BECAUSE EVEN IF HE DID HAVE AN ANSWER: YOU CANNOT NO NUFFIN!

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:49:25 2015 No.6461395 >>6461377 You know I hate to be a pedant, but in the end what CAN you know? Socrates is right.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:51:43 2015 No.6461405 CERTAIN LINGUISTIC ANTHROPOLOGISTS THINK THAT RELIGION IS A LANGUAGE VIRUS, RE-WRITES PATHWAYS IN THE BRAIN, DULLS CRITICAL THINKING

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:52:50 2015 No.6461410

>>6461377
i'm sure those insects burrow into anyone's eyes. i don't know why you keep bringing children into it like some moral bargaining chip

like i said before (that you keep ignoring) the suffering is the action of satan. he has dominion over the earth. but what have you done to stop the eye insects?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:53:41 2015 No.6461416 >>6461410 prove satan exists

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:53:46 2015 No.6461417 >>6461395 SO YOU MAY AS WELL WORSHIP A GOD WHO CAUSES IMMENSE SUFFERING BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHY?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:54:11 2015 No.6461419 >>6461377 Insects burrowing into the eyes of kids saved my life

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:54:53 2015 No.6461423 >>6461410 IMPLYING I CAN STOP GOD'S TERRIBLE ACTIONS

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:57:08 2015 No.6461433 >>6461416 suffering >>6461423 > the suffering is the action of satan.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:57:27 2015 No.6461435

>>6461417
Because I have faith. I believe in revelation and the conclusions that can be drawn from that revelation.

If you don't, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope, in time, that you'll come around. I want everyone to believe in Christ, because I want everyone to have eternal life.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:58:27 2015 No.6461439 >>6461433 SATAN EXISTS AS A RESULT OF GOD BEING TERRIBLE >>6461435 I DON'T WANT REVELATION FROM SUCH A TERRIBLE GOD

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:59:07 2015 No.6461441 >>6461435 Salvation is only for the elect.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 01:59:17 2015 No.6461443 >>6461433 >suffering exists, therefore satan non-sequitur, try again

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 02:02:18 2015 No.6461449 >>6461439 satan exists as a result of satan being terrible >>6461443 i don't know what the result of this exercise is supposed to do

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 02:06:36 2015 No.6461471 >>6461449 just stop

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 02:07:36 2015 No.6461477 >>6461449 http://au.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/top-10-signs-the-devil-exists.html

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 02:11:03 2015 No.6461492
File: 120 KB, 679x560, 1391648185441.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6461149
I subscribed to hear from him, but you're still a quack if you follow the "god's ways are mysterious, therefore the religious are not to be scrutinised and questioned" argument. Admitting that from Aquinas to C. S. Lewis, theologians have battled this problem and therefore we're done with it doesn't help either.
The priest seems a bit smug and condescending to me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 02:15:17 2015 No.6461518 >>6461449 >i don't know what the result of this exercise is supposed to do expose fallacies in your thought processes. ill ask once more: try again

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/lit/ - Literature