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/lit/ - Literature

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6393270 No.6393270[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

>get into a philosophical conversation with a hippie
> he says that we have to cooperate as a society, and competition is a terrible way to run things
>pause, and ask if the idea of cooperation would have to outcompete the idea of competition
>his friend laughs while he rethinks his argument
Times you put dirty hippies in their place

>> No.6393271

>>6393270
Hippies aren't even working members of society. They hold little to no value except what their family leaves them.

>> No.6393274

>>6393271
>Hippies aren't even working members of society
Because their the counterculture to society, not a subculture.

>> No.6393278

>>6393274
*they're

>> No.6393279

>>6393274
>their
>thinking hippies are still the counterculture and not just another commodified look

>> No.6393280

>>6393274
Wrong, hippies and the 80's yuppies (for example) are exatly the same kind of person: the narcissist who thinks freedom means to do what they want regardless of everyone else.

>> No.6393281

>>6393279
Yeah, heroin addicts are the counterculture now, there's just some hippie overlap now

>> No.6393285

>>6393281
>meet some hippie seeming people
>hang out with them for like six months
>they've been spiking bongs with heroin
>have no qualms about announcing their heroin addiction to anyone who asks about them
Fuck hippies. Peace and love my foot

>> No.6393288

>>6393270
>competition is a terrible way to run things
Spoken like a real loser

>> No.6393289

>>6393270
blown the fuck out
nice one

>> No.6393299

>>6393280
>80's yuppies and hippies are the same
No.
80's yuppies were employed, played a role in society, and had served a function to the state. Hippies did no such thing.

>> No.6393306

>>6393270
>get into a philosophical conversation with a hippie
>he says that we have to cooperate as a society, and competition is a terrible way to run things
>drop fifty cents in his cup and say "god bless"

>> No.6393320

>>6393299
>muh employment muh state

>>6393285
Not everyone with long hair and tie-dye is a hippie. The term is effectively meaningless anymore

>> No.6393322

But your reply was empty rhetoric and made no sense.

>> No.6393329

>>6393270
No
People who have to want to stop living competitively.

Also capitalism is great at changing things and generating wealth quickly.
While some argue cooperation will get things done faster it probably wont, but that isnt a bad thing.

>> No.6393339

drug abusing music hippies are infinitely superior and understand why cash money is necesarry

>> No.6393343

>>6393322
This. Just because the poor kid was too stoned to see it doesn't mean he got btfo

>> No.6393345

>>6393299
ok Reagan

>> No.6393351

>>6393343
>we should all cooperate
>how would you disincentivize people who would rather compete
>would cooperation ever outcompete competition

>> No.6393355

>>6393280
they were exact opposites

Yuppies = hyper capitalit little douches

Hippies = anti-capitalist shroom-heads

>> No.6393357

>>6393351
I think you're just assuming that people would rather compete, discounting that many don't even think there's another option.

>> No.6393361

>>6393270
>implying competition is a good way of running things

Oh boy

>> No.6393363

>>6393351

Yeah, because the bullshit cockblocking that happens all the time really makes people productive citizens, and it's great for business.

Competition makes litost the norm. People would rather more people have less than to see their neighbours do well.

>> No.6393366

>>6393357
what is the level of cooperation required that the cooperators would outcompete the competitors? How would the anti-competition idea reach that level of penetration in a society? Do you even prisoners dilemma?

>> No.6393369

>>6393361
Competition stimulates growth. Fact.

Or are you arguing in favor of monopolies?

>> No.6393371

>>6393361
STFU HEROIN ADDICT FUCK OFF WITH DADDYS MONEY LEECH I BET YOU DONT EVEN WORK OR HELP THE STATE ITS LIKE YOU DONT LIKE HAVING ROADS AND FOOD FUCKING HIPPIES

>> No.6393375
File: 29 KB, 483x285, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6393375

>>6393363
>>6393357
>>6393343
>>6393322
Behavioral economics plz

>> No.6393376

>>6393270
hippie thread
6 1/2 decades after they existed
or to restate that - well over a half a century ago

and did they do any lasting harm? no
but the guy who put Nixon into office - Roger Ailes - is still fucking up the country with Fox Propaganda "News"

>> No.6393379

>>6393270
“Real learning comes about when the competitive spirit has ceased.” -- Jiddu Krishnamurti

>> No.6393394

>>6393376
>whaa whaa faux news ruining the country
On the other hand I bet you love sucking cock of the leftie propaganda outlets

>> No.6393396

>>6393369
Depends on what vision you have of competition. Competition in a generally Cooperative society? Well, then yes, it can be a stimulant.

>> No.6393397

What about the ones who live on homestead/intentional communities with like a couple dozen other people, are self-sufficient, grow their own food, and share income by making crafts and selling surplus food/meat or whatever (tofu like twin oaks or whatever)

are they okay because they're useful in their own small community?

>> No.6393400

>>6393394
Delirant political comments are to be made on /pol/

>> No.6393403

>>6393400
>>>/pol/
There you go then

>> No.6393410

>>6393396
>Depends on what vision you have of competition
There's only one definition of competition. What the fuck would be cooperative competion?

>> No.6393413

>>6393397
>implying they don't compete
It only looks rosy from the outside. I spent a month in a community like that, and the competition is brutal and almost invisible. But it hurts

>> No.6393414

>>6393410
sleep on it

>> No.6393426
File: 80 KB, 500x385, soak rates.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6393426

>>6393270
>2415 AS
>being a sophist

>> No.6393435

>>6393414
>>I don't know but I don't want to admit it

>> No.6393437

>>6393274

They have a lot of social endeavours that make them a subculture anon. Counterculture is going full hermit in a jungle alone, and that still includes your cultural 'world' before hand

>> No.6393441

>>6393414
>2+2=5
>err, no it doesn't
>sleep on it xDD

>> No.6393443

>>6393375

>first year microeconomics

pls go

>> No.6393446

>having to jump loops for 25 years to be allowed to try things
>have to kiss ass for another decade before you have any chance of doing anything
>if you do something great while working under someone else that person gets the credit
>if you do something great in a company that company gets the credit
if americans really love competition so much they should allow it

>> No.6393448

>>6393413
How do you mean? Are they like, "I made more bars of organic soap therefore I'm better" or what?

>> No.6393450

>>6393410

>cooperative Competition

>I help you to shit on me

>> No.6393455

>>6393394
>comparing a group with someone acting at the same time
>one gets lasting hate while being functionally non-existant
>the other doesn't gets no attention, except anons defending him, and keeps acting to this day.
>hurr durr you just hate certain party that hasn't been mentioned or compared, you surely want the other party that hasn't been mentioned or defended in anyway

>> No.6393456
File: 195 KB, 799x565, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6393456

>>6393443
>>i'd better keep it simple for the people who think that cooperation can outcompete competition
Here's another. You want to post anything, or just comment on what year I learned it

>> No.6393459

>>6393446
Isn't this the case in most developed nations, though?

>> No.6393467

>>6393446
>having to jump loops for 25 years to be allowed to try things
You can try things right now.

>have to kiss ass for another decade before you have any chance of doing anything
No you don't.

>if you do something great while working under someone else that person gets the credit
Then why are you working under someone else?

>if you do something great in a company that company gets the credit
Because you use the companies resources and they pay you to do it. Do it on your own then, no one is stopping you.

>> No.6393472

>>6393446
Have you ever heard of this thing called "entrepreneurship" ?

>> No.6393488

>>6393413

Just curious on that note: what exactly was the competition over in your situation? If people are sharing everything, what exactly are they competing over? I've never been in a community like this, so forgive my ignorance please! I would like to learn more about what it's like to live in places like this if you have any good resources to share

>> No.6393493

>>6393456
could you explain that pic or link to an explanation at least?

>> No.6393502

>>6393459
But americans are particularly crazy about how good competing is while not allowing anyone to do it.

>>6393467
How do you improve medicine this way? How do you get money to start a company? How do you get access to a laboratory?

>> No.6393503

>>6393355
Hippies became the yuppies.

>> No.6393504

>>6393455
>I know how to greentext

You bitch about "propaganda news" yet focus your bitchiness on a particular (right leaning) one and at the same time bitch about them fucking up the country in a thread that has nothing to do with it in the first place. You also felt the need to mention Nixon along with it.

Get fucked.

>> No.6393506

>>6393488
Just the normal social knife fight turned up to eleven. Very cooperative with the products, but tiny errors would get amplified because of the echo chamber

I was a guest so they didn't "let me in on it" or really rag on me, but it was bad.

>> No.6393516

>>6393493
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk-Dove_game

>> No.6393522

>>6393472
I read Pando occasionally but I never understood the word. Doesn't it mean rich people using their dad's or their friend's money to have a vanity project that they sustain a few years by counting their own money as assets and inventing numbers everywhere until a big company buys them?

>> No.6393535

>>6393488
You still have a social standing if you're more useful, you can also keep some stuff for yourself because no one is regulating your shit.

>> No.6393539

>>6393502
>why am I not handed everything on a silver platter without having to do anything for it
>people should just recognize me for the genius that I am and give me everything I want
Do work in your garage, no one is stopping you from doing it. In the UK there was a hippy dude that slept in an abandoned van, built a wind turbine from scrap, founded a company, and became rich in less than a decade.

You don't actually need a lot of money to start it, depending on the country's laws, it can be as little as a couple hundred dollars.

>> No.6393544
File: 54 KB, 600x398, young-steve-jobs-1-e1317873981447.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6393544

>>6393522
No, it simply means choosing not to work for someone else and creating your own business

Your strawman about rich people using their dad's money is ridiculous. Plenty of entrepreneurs come from working class backgrounds. Your other strawman about entrepreneurs exclusively "inventing numbers" and not creating anything worthwhile is equally ridiculous. I'd like to remind you that the machine you're shitposting on right now is the fruit of entrepreneurship.

In essence, kill yourself.

>> No.6393556

>>6393544
>Plenty of entrepreneurs come from working class backgrounds
The majority of millionaires in the US are self made, something like 1/4 are immigrants.

>> No.6393558

>>6393539
>silver platter
I wasn't aware that kissing ass, socializing and having the right family were merits and that proving your skill in a field was directly related to that. I guess that all the extra work you have to do to get a single chance when you're 40 or 50 is really wanting a free ride.

>one guy did a thing on his own
>all developments should either be tied to corporations or slowed the fuck down (until you get money from corporations)
yeah, really healthy way of evolving medicine, for example.

>> No.6393565

>>6393558
What do you propose? Anyone who wants to get access to a lab, companies resources, or shit like that should get it.

Seems to me like you're an entitled little shit, see >>6393556

>> No.6393572

>>6393558
>>6393565
Just to add on to that, you can do whatever you want, make money, invest that money into your own laboratory, produce medicine or whatever the hell you want to do.

>> No.6393573

>>6393565
>Anyone who wants to get access to a lab, companies resources, or shit like that should get it.

You seem to get it

>> No.6393575

>>6393573
So you are an entitled little shit.

>> No.6393580

>>6393539
>became rich

Literally who fucking cares

>> No.6393584

>>6393580
Not the point, point is he did it himself, didn't need to work for 25 years, didn't need to kiss ass of someone for 10 years, etc. He went and did it.

>> No.6393601

>>6393575
A different entitled little shit though :^)

And I would consider you a self-righteous possesive douche.

Aren't we having fun?

>> No.6393608

>>6393575
why is entitled to demand a merit system over a "jumped enough loops" one? if you want people to compete leave them to it, don't protect a few because they've been doing it for more time or they have a bigger title.

>> No.6393609

>>6393584
And?

The game is still rigged friend.

>> No.6393611

>>6393609
Nah-ah One guy I heard of sort of went around it for one time before getting into the system. That proves the system always works 1000%

>> No.6393613

>>6393410
Look up the difference between agonism and antagonism.

>> No.6393622

Plato makes the same argument as the hippie somewhere. Someone in a dialogue is talking about the nation of Sparta and how their entire policy is tailored towards making the city ready for war. Plato, or his voice in the dialogue, if I remember correctly, that in order for an army to work there has to co-operation/peace/agreement between its members, so clearly co-operation/peace is a more fundamental principle of human flourishing than competition/war. You can say it like this: in order to win in any competition you need to have agreement in your intellect/will/mind/body, etc. If you had competing desires, for example, you would be able to accomplish very little. Competition is not a desirable thing in itself, it's only something that comes out of the chaos/failure in the world.

It can be hard to contradict the value of competition when people believe in a Darwinian cosmology that glorifies war and death as a good. This is one of the reasons that Darwinian cosmology must be rejected. It is really just a reflection of 19th century Capitalism/Liberalism and has no real grounding in physical fact.

Nietzsche glorified competition and thought that the Greeks as exemplified by Homer, rather than by Plato, glorified competition. Reading Homer, however, I don't get that. Homer ends his Iliad with Achilles and Priam crying together because they regret the war and the loss of their loved ones. In the Odyssey Achilles is in hell and says that he would rather be a living slave than king of the dead. This is not the proud Nietzschean mindset that would be on top at any costs. That is the Lucifer of Milton who says, "better to reign in hell, than serve in heaven." This Nietzscheanism inspired the Nazis and Italian Fascists; they called it the "heroic view of life", which glorifies proud conquerors, as opposed to the Christian view of life which glorifies humble servants. Well, those heroic nations didn't last long, lol.

>> No.6393626

>>6393601
I'm glad you think that way. Also, I want your stuff, according to your logic you should give them to me because I need them. You're not going to force me to jump trough "loops" for me to get them, are you?

>>6393608
There already is a merit system. No one is stopping you from pursuing what you want, you only have yourself to blame.

>>6393609
>>6393613
If you don't have what it takes to cut it, don't complain about it, deal with being mediocre and kiss ass.

Keep complaining about the "game being rigged" if that makes you feel better. Might as well blame the Jews at this point.

>> No.6393638

>>6393622
You can look at Rome, which stands for greatness. But the ancient Roman ethic was not one of proud desire to compete and conquer; they emphasized obedience to authority, which is why they were successful at all.

>> No.6393645

>>6393626
If you think you're at liberty to do anything you want, become successful through any means, you're blind and even worse, a slave.

The Jews are to blame... Partially.

>> No.6393654

>>6393645
>If you think you're at liberty to do anything you want, become successful through any means, you're blind
Really? In what ways are you not free to create your own company?

>> No.6393663

>>6393645
But you literally can do anything you want. Not saying there won't be consequences.

>> No.6393666

>>6393622
Cooperation born out of competition. War in itself is a competition which forced them to cooperate in order to better compete with others in the first place.

Just like a company cooperates within, but competes with other companies.

>>6393638
>But the ancient Roman ethic was not one of proud desire to compete and conquer
Rome was born out of competing, competing with other Italian states, competing with Carthage, competing with Gaul, etc, out of this competition came the Roman empire.

>> No.6393676

>>6393663
you have a really dumb definition of liberty if you only count immediate retentions. in that sense every single country ever was just as free.

>> No.6393678

>>6393645
But you can, or is there an invisible force stopping you?

>> No.6393679

Reminder that in the Middle Ages it was considered immoral to outcompete your fellow craftsmen and that the modern innovation in economics is really the removal of all ethics from economics and its reduction to a mechanical science; just as Newtonian cosmology takes telos out of the cosmos reducing to a mechanical science. Also, the promotion of usury, which in the Middle Ages was considered to be one of the most heinous sins.

>> No.6393686

>>6393678
His own stupidity

>>6393679
Yeah, and look how high the standards of living were in the middle ages.

>> No.6393689

>>6393666
>Rome was born out of competing, competing with other Italian states, competing with Carthage, competing with Gaul, etc, out of this competition came the Roman empire.

No, it was born out of co-operation. Co-operation between the farmers and statesman, co-operation between the centurions and soldiers, co-operation between the various provinces and cities of the empire.

>> No.6393690

>>6393679
>Reminder that in the Middle Ages it was considered immoral to outcompete your fellow craftsmen
Within the guild, but not among other guilds, neither was this universal. There was nothing immoral about out competing an Arab or a city state across the border.

>> No.6393695

>>6393686
>Yeah, and look how high the standards of living were in the middle ages.

They were much higher. Only materialists think otherwise.

>> No.6393700

>>6393695
The only valid measure for standard of living is material standard of living.

>> No.6393706

>>6393626
>If you don't have what it takes to cut it, don't complain about it, deal with being mediocre and kiss ass.
I just asked you to look something up to give you more understanding, not sharing an opinion about the unfairness of anything.

There are different kinds of competition. Some can be benevolent to a society and some can be destructive. For example, two guys competing at basketball both hone their skills that way. Two guys competing at machete fighting will destroy each other.

For a society, competition is useful within certain limits that doesn't disrupt the social structure. When you cross those limits, you get real unrest and conflict. Competition among companies is nice when two bakers both try to make the most delicious bread. But when competition goes the direction of multinationals ruining peoples lives in search of ever cheaper wages, followed by unemployment, crime, violence and stuff like that, then nobody really benefits.

Of course you may very well go all le might is right if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen, and that's fine, but in that case you also shouldn't fine if poor people take your things, rape your family and kill you. It's all in the game, then.

>> No.6393708

>>6393700
So who has a higher standard of living; a murderer, rapist, thief, adulterer millionaire; or a saintly beggar?

>> No.6393709

>>6393689
This co-operation was born out of competition, you idiot.

They centurion and soldier had to co-operate to out-compete the Carthaginians, etc. Stay blinded by your ideology though. Co-operation born out of competition.

>>6393695
>says while using a computer and living in a first world country and not being one of 6 siblings that actually reached adulthood

>> No.6393712

>>6393695
kek
>stuck in rigid class system
>work like a dog if you aren't an elite
>shit yourself to death at age 20
truly the golden years

>> No.6393714

>>6393626
>Also, I want your stuff, according to your logic you should give them to me because I need them.

according to my logic neither of us should have them, which means that I can't give them to you either. :^)
Assuming that that was the framework of society, I would happily share my stuff with you, since you seem like such a lovely guy.

>> No.6393715
File: 507 KB, 800x1890, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6393715

>>6393695

>> No.6393719

>>6393709
>They centurion and soldier had to co-operate to out-compete the Carthaginians, etc. Stay blinded by your ideology though. Co-operation born out of competition.

If the Romans desired to compete then why did they wipe out their enemies? Why didn't they give their enemies weapons and money? Why did they level Carthage instead of letting it recuperate and attack them again?

>> No.6393742

>>6393695
>tfw medieval peasants only worked 150 days a year

They were half-NEETs.

>> No.6393754

>>6393708
the murderer, rapist, thief, adulterer etc..., obviously.

Heck, I'm sure that the prison inmates in the first world have higher standards of living than the nobility during the middle ages.

I think you don't understand what "standard of living" means, and I heartily encourage you to read the dictionary.

>> No.6393760

>>6393437
what about communes anon (circa when they were popular)

>> No.6393769

>>6393706
>When you cross those limits, you get real unrest and conflict.
Yet one of the most destructive period in our history, world war 2, and the competition involved gave born, or expanded, technologies to an unprecedented extent. Just looking at rocketry and aeronautics is enough to conclude this. When one-upping your opponent is a matter of life and death, you'll be very productive at it.

>>6393714
So, in your society there's no medicine and no laboratories to begin with, thus your point is moot.

>>6393719
>If the Romans desired to compete then why did they wipe out their enemies?
Who said they desired to compete? Competition was the natural result, and cause of their success. No one really wants competition, they want to be the top dog, but this gives birth to competition, not everyone can be the top dog.

Because that's the point of the competition, to win, not to the competition itself, the most capable, strongest, most deserving remains, thus the one that made the most progress. Would Romans ever had developed their winning military tactics if there were not opponents to use them against? Would they ever conquered anyone if there was nothing to conquer?

>Why did they level Carthage instead of letting it recuperate and attack them again?
They left Carthage to recuperate before, it was called the 1st punic and 2nd punic wars, pleb.

>> No.6393779

>>6393712
>>stuck in rigid class system
>work like a dog if you aren't an elite

I'm confused are you talking about 2015 or the medieval era?

>> No.6393842

>>6393779

>Sixty-seven percent of high-net-worth Americans are self-made millionaires, according to the survey. Only 8 percent inherited their wealth. One third of the millionaires surveyed were women and half of them made their own fortunes.
>One third of the wealthy respondents were born outside the U.S. or were first-generation U.S. citizens.

http://www.fa-mag.com/news/most-millionaires-self-made--study-says-14565.html

>Some 32 percent of the Forbes 400 in 2011 belonged to very rich families, down from 60 percent in 1982. On the other hand, the share of those in the Forbes 400 who didn't grow up wealthy but had some money in the family—the equivalent of the upper middle class—rose by the about same amount. The proportion of those in the list who grew up poor or had little wealth remained constant at roughly 20 percent throughout the same period.

>Most individuals on the Forbes 400 list did not inherit the family business but rather made their own fortune. Kaplan and Rauh found that 69 percent of those on the list in 2011 started their own business, compared with only 40 percent in 1982.
>In other words, there are fewer people on the Forbes 400 list who came from an affluent background and eventually took over the family business
http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/magazine/summer-2013/billionaires-self-made


Wait, who's the president of the US again? Oh, yeah...

>> No.6393858

>>6393842
b-but why am I not a billionaire? L-Life is n-not fair!

>> No.6393868

>>6393622
Plato was also a feminazi SJW.

>> No.6393903

>>6393842
>20% out of a highly representative group of 400 managed to escape poverty

Poverty is just lazyness you guys! Really!

>>6393769
>So, in your society there's no medicine and no laboratories to begin with

No no, we've got lots. Why shouldn't we?

>> No.6393907

>>6393868
Plato was literally a patriarch

Patriarchs can be "sjws" insofar that they have your best interests at heart. But not in the sense of equality because people don't know how to live their owns lives.

>> No.6393944

>>6393907
Point is, he was an egalitarian where men and women's abilities were concerned. And we can see the effects of believing that on the Western world these days. Women literally get state sanctioned privileges, just because they have tits and a vagina, even though they claim they are for "equality".

Plato's policies would suffer the same fate.

>> No.6393965

The system's rigged but it's not nearly as rigged as people believe.

I'm starting a business right now. I actually have a fucking Kickstarter project open in another tab. My family isn't ultra-rich, but they're pretty middle class.

I know I've had advantages due to my class. I got to talk with CPAs and other business professionals for advice.

The problem is, my core product was made on a $200 laptop with skills I taught myself through a book I purchased at the library. So while it would have been much, much harder for me to create this company if I was poor, I still would have been able to do it.

The best way to create more equality is to fund the shit out of education. My school's a fucking joke and I live in a very high-income area. I can't imagine what it would be like in a poor one.

Even worse, poor parents tend to not encourage learning as much as rich ones. So we need some way to counter-act that.

>> No.6393974

>>6393903
>gets proven wrong
>has no retort and resorts to sarcasm
Great

>>6393903
Not in your society we don't. We have in our present one, you know, the one you complain and bitch about.

>>6393944
They are for equality, equality of outcome, not equal opportunity, that's the problem.

>> No.6393988

>>6393974
>They are for equality, equality of outcome, not equal opportunity, that's the problem.

I think the ideology is the problem. Not it's specifics.

>> No.6393995

Western Society Has No Problems None At All Everything Is Good We Are Not On A Sinking Ship Money Is True Freedom: The Argument

>> No.6394023

>>6393988
Yeah, I agree, however I was talking in that specific case, such as affirmative action and quotas. They enforce inequalities in order to achieve what they believe is "true equality"

>> No.6394028
File: 506 KB, 640x480, gagging bandana.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394028

>hippies
>mfw /pol/ literally thinks it's still 1968
dem pinkos man

>> No.6394031

>>6394023
>They enforce inequalities in order to achieve what they believe is "true equality"

Which is ironic, considering the content of the word "equality" is really subjective.

>> No.6394040

>>6393995
As Winston Churchill once said "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

>> No.6394045

>>6393995
Guy, again, I agree with you, so don't take this the wrong way. You make socialists look retarded because all you ever do is spout vague bullshit and insult people. Just stop posting, please.

>> No.6394060

>>6394031
It's pretty clear what equality is in the context of rights, duties and laws. Shit tasting bad is subjective too. Everything can be reduced to be "subjective".

There is no way you can justify affirmative action or quotas in the name of equality unless you do some mental gymnastics.

>> No.6394071
File: 405 KB, 990x488, haiku.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394071

>>6393299
>yuppies
>served a function

>> No.6394082

>>6393903
20% is enormous. Do you believe that if you take a group of 100 random people, more than 20 of them would have the drive and intelligence to escape poverty? I honestly expected a number far lower.

>> No.6394090

>>6394082
Point being, this isn't a random selection of people

>> No.6394091

>>6393965
>The best way to create more equality is to fund the shit out of education. My school's a fucking joke and I live in a very high-income area. I can't imagine what it would be like in a poor one.
This is the biggest problem. Many people that say they are for equal opportunity seriously undervalue good education.

I grew up in a suburb outside of Detroit. Relatively wealthy, mostly white, upper-middle class suburb. My public high school was quite nice because of this, with the quality of teachers and facilities significantly higher than the state average. Needless to say graduation rate was very high. In Detroit however, schools are decrepit and in desperate need of renovation. Teachers are paid much less than in wealthy areas and as a result the best teachers don't want to work there. Everyone from students to staff to parents to everyone in the state knows how atrocious these schools are. There is a sense of dignity, or maybe just importance, that you get from attending high quality private schools, and even my high quality public school. Students in the Detroit Public School system are awarded no such dignity, and people wonder why graduation rates in Detroit are ~60%.

I don't think that capitalism is a terrible thing, but people should really rethink what makes a "fair playing field".

>> No.6394092

>>6394040

Winston also starved India. Winston was not exactly the brightest man on Earth.

>>6394045

I'm not a Socialist. It's only vague if you don't know what you're looking at. Mutualism is key, not Socialism.

>> No.6394098

>>6393769
>Yet one of the most destructive period in our history, world war 2, and the competition involved gave born, or expanded, technologies to an unprecedented extent. Just looking at rocketry and aeronautics is enough to conclude this. When one-upping your opponent is a matter of life and death, you'll be very productive at it.
You might as easily say that this is an example of unprecedented cooperation and that when working together is a matter of life and death you'll be very productive at it. Unprecedented cooperation is more defining for WW2 than unprecedented competition.

>> No.6394101

>>6394060
>There is no way you can justify affirmative action or quotas in the name of equality unless you do some mental gymnastics.

It's pretty easy for some people to justify, if your axioms are tied to the idea that equality should be a goal for the State achieve.

>> No.6394115

>>6394090
Of course, it's a selection of 400 very successful people, and they have found that 20% come from a poor background, and most of the rest are middle/upper-middle class.

This completely destroys the "rich people stay rich poor people stay poor" argument of the left.

>> No.6394123

>>6394091
In the case of detroit there are other elements at play here...

>>6394092
Winston caused less people to starve in wartime Bengal than Stalin caused in peacetime Ukraine.

>> No.6394133

>>6394123
Every other major city in the Midwest is the same way and you could say "there are other elements at play" for them too.

>> No.6394137

>>6394123

They're both starvation.

>> No.6394138

>>6394133
What's the demographic breakdown of these midwestern cities?

>> No.6394141

Gee, it's a sure lot of people that think that there's a contradiction between cooperation and competition.

Young Republicans, much?

>> No.6394144

>>6394137
...but are due to different reasons.

One was due to crop failure during wartime.

The other was due to komissars stealing all the crops.

>> No.6394151
File: 216 KB, 634x422, article-urn_publicid_ap.org_2f58234480e04996bc3e9389a236a0db-6UM1z2Ub6HSK2-299_634x42.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394151

>>6394138

>> No.6394156

>>6394151
what's that supposed to mean?

>> No.6394168

>>6394092
>Winston also starved India. Winston was not exactly the brightest man on Earth.
Even if he did, that does not make his words less true. All you can do is resort to personal attacks and claim some mental superiority while being the worst tripfag shitposter on this board.


>>6394101
>It's pretty easy for some people to justify, if your axioms are tied to the idea that equality should be a goal for the State achieve.
Note I added "mental gymnastics" there. The basis of affirmative action is to treat people unequally based on nothing more than their ethnicity, race or sex rather than merit or capability.

>> No.6394171

>>6394144

Winston Churchill is arguably partly responsible for the one million deaths that occurred due to Famine. He certainly didn't make the situation any better.

At the time the Bengal Crisis was happening, Churchill sent Leo Amery a letter, contained within it was "I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion."

He could have sent food, but Churchill made it known that he believed India was a savage nation and giving them food would have caused them to breed out of control.

Churchill was an idiot, he was totally incompetent.

>> No.6394188

>>6394156
You want me to look up demographic information on every major city in the midwest? Why does it even matter?

>> No.6394190

>>6394168
>Even if he did, that does not make his words less true

But even if you disagree with me, his words aren't true at all. It's only true if you're hideously uneducated on how many forms of "government" there are.

>> No.6394192

>>6394171
Regardless of Churchill's opinions about Indians, I don't think it's his hate of Indian which led him to starve them to death. It was the priority of feeding the indian troops on the battlefronts over feeding the local bengalis.

Tough decision to take, really.

Now Stalin, on the other hand, did a miracle : he managed to cause millions to starve to death in peacetime and when there was no crop failure.

>> No.6394198
File: 36 KB, 550x365, 1409904546142.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394198

>>6394168
>words are truth-apt

>> No.6394200

>>6394192

I not a big fan of Stalin or Churchill. Both weren't great.

>> No.6394219

>>6394190
Show me a form of government that is better.

Nice way of making a point about your mental superiority complex.

>>6394198
>greentext
Well, that was easy.

>> No.6394233

>>6393584
>he did it himself
didn't he steal everything from the other guys

>> No.6394253

>>6394219

>Show me a form of government that is better.

No State. Won't happen for a long time, though.

Even if you still disagree, again, there are so many forms of Government that haven't even been attempted and remain hypothetical. To say "Oh we've tried everything and we settled on Democracy" is an argument from the point of view of ignorance to what you speak, which isn't surprising coming from Churchill.

>> No.6394257

>>6394219
I made a valid point with that green text though.

>> No.6394268

>>6394233
Dale Vince?

>Dale Vince, OBE, is a "green energy" tycoon,[4] former New Age traveller,[5] and British industrialist who has become noteworthy as the outspoken[6] owner of the green electricity company Ecotricity.[7] He is a vegan.
>Vince was born in Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, leaving school at 15. He spent time as a New Age traveller.[8][9] In 1991 he saw his first windfarm ("I thought, either I can carry on by myself with the windmill on my van, or I can get into the big stuff"[10]) and in 1995 he founded the Renewable Energy Company.[8] In 1996 he launched his first wind turbine supplying “green electricity”.[11]
>Ecotricity was started by Dale Vince in 1995, with a single wind turbine he had used to power an old army truck he called home on a hill near Stroud in Gloucestershire, England.[5]
>From this Dale went on to commercially build Wind monitoring equipment (which the company still does today using the name Nexgen [6]) from there they went on to having their own Wind turbines, starting with a 40 metre turbine in the early 1990s which at the time was the largest in the country.[7]

The only reason I used him as an example is because I saw an article about his wife suing him for money despite divorcing him 20 years prior to him becoming rich and demanding several millions.

>After Vince had made his fortune, Wyatt, who had lived what was later described in court as "16 years of real hardship", lodged a financial claim of £1.9 million against Vince in 2011, nearly 20 years after their divorce.
Top kek

>>6394253
You're a retard, read the quote again.
>"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
>except all the others that have been tried

And all you have is your assertion, no proof of it actually being better. Do us all a favour and kill yourself already.

>>6394257
No, you actually did not. But thanks for trying.

>> No.6394273

>>6394268
>No, you actually did not. But thanks for trying.
Demonstrate to me how words are truth-apt.

>> No.6394283

>>6394268

>telling people to kill themselves on 4chan

How stagnant.

>> No.6394304

>>6393686
>muh dark ages
study more

>> No.6394317

>>6393742
it's actually reported that many times they asked to be able to work more because the holidays were mandatory and, of course, not paid

>> No.6394321

>>6393270
>hurr durr i communicate with fuckin interdimenshunal gods n shit with lsd and dmt
>hurr durr cannabis is an entheogen. you know i'm really smart cuz ah call it "cannabis", not weed, witch means i use it for like... spiritual shit man

>> No.6394322
File: 13 KB, 500x500, 1410134595873.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394322

>>6394283
Yet appropriate.

>> No.6394326
File: 41 KB, 341x512, 10299544_539649852830986_7338635425333796112_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394326

>>6394322

Not really

>> No.6394329

>>6394304
>implying standards of living were not poor during the middle ages
He never mentioned the dark ages

>> No.6394331

>>6394321
>ima buddist xD

>> No.6394333

>>6394326
Will you at any point face your own retardation or just start ignoring the subject?

>> No.6394338
File: 76 KB, 640x710, SlimeFull.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394338

>>6394333

Is this you?

>> No.6394346

>>6394040
>this quote
>over and over again
assuming this is true and assuming we even need "government" what is that supposed to prove? That's just pandering.

>> No.6394351

>>6394188
Because you'd be ignoring the racial component of the problem.

Am I correct to think that the cities which are most struggling are akin to Detroit demographically speaking?

>> No.6394356

>>6394338
Apparently not.

What a waste of perfectly good oxygen...


>>6394346
Proves nothing, it's just stating a fact. You can assume all you want for all I care.

>> No.6394361

>>6393903
I am from a third world country, my mother used to live in the country side. No electricity, no education at all, you have no idea what it is to be in a place like that. When she was a teenager, she said fuck it, ditched the country side, moved to the city, graduated highschool, got her major in physics and a master degree in mathematics. Saying that poor people can't move forward is just plain out bullshit.

>> No.6394362

>>6393965
>fund the shit
before throwing money at things we should understand how to make things more effective
the reason the educations system doesn't work is not just that nobody invests in it

>> No.6394366

>>6394361
Who and how many did she have to fuck?

>> No.6394371

>>6394366
We're not talking about your mother.

>> No.6394375

>>6394326
wtf is this meme?

>> No.6394401

>>6394371
pwnd.

>> No.6394411

>>6394366
She did fuck my father, but you can't get out of poverty by fucking everyone. Is that how it works at the land of the free?

>> No.6394489

>>6394361
saying none of them can: bullshit
saying most or all of them can: also bullshit

>> No.6394494

>>6393974
>Not in your society we don't.

So you keep saying. Even though I thought my mastery of sarcasm would've pointed you to a demand of clarification, it obviously did not, so here, in plain word: Why wouldn't it?

>>6394082
see >>6394090

If what you are saying should match the numbers presented you should show a social mobility percentage. Oddly, there's only an increase in poverty, not the other way around.

The fact that 80 people managed to become wealthy, starting out poor, is pretty irrelevant in a country of some 300+ million.
Nobody ever said the game was impossible to win, just that it was rigged.

>>6394115

No, not at all.

>>6394361
I'm very happy for you and your mother. How did she afford her high school and College education?

But never the less, I would never claim that it's impossible to succeed, coming from a disadvantaged position. Just a lot harder.

>> No.6394518

>>6394494
>Why wouldn't it?
Why do you want me to prove a negative?

Unicorns exist, prove that they do not

>> No.6394559

>>6394494
>How did she afford her high school and College education?

Public education, you don't have to pay for it. You do need to wear an uniform in highschool though, I believe she had one for the whole week.

>Just a lot harder.
Yes, it is hard. While I had a better position than her, I still had to deal with the struggle of moving forward, having to work in the construction of my house as a kid, working in the "family business". Shit wasn't fun, but you learn a thing or two.

>>6394489
I agree with you, but there is way too many that won't even try to do it because they are not willing to struggle. I have seen it enough times to be sure about it.

>> No.6394569

>>6394356
>Proves nothing
things need to be proven in order to be facts

>> No.6394580

>>6394559

Some people are unable to meet the ideal set. They shouldn't just be ignored as "Too Lazy" or "Not Good Enough", categorizing a certain amount of people as the good cost for compeition isn't a good idea. I mean I am totally proud of your mother and her achievments, but some people cannot meet the standards set to work so often.

Often times the case for this is "invisible" restrictions set, such as mental illnesses like severe anxiety, depression, perhaps even psychotic illnesses that can be controlled but can play havoc on the ideal "Good Model Citizen" who has a stable job, stable career, so on and so forth.

We have to confront these issues rather than telling people they are a kind of morally wrong for being unable to meet others labor/education/financial satisfaction.

>> No.6394581

>>6394518
Your claim was that there would be no medicine or laboratories in a a society ordered through coorporation rather than competition.

Just because "no" is part of the sentence doesn't make it a negative. You state it as fact. I want to know your reasons, to see if there's any logic to them, that can qualify your claim.

As of now, I have to assume that your reasons are something like; There can be no progress or invention, without competition, because noone would have any incentiment to invent, because we only do so to get more wealth.

I claim, that a cooperative society would work together to combat sickness, through the invention of medicine and use of laboratories, just as any other society, basen on the idea that wealth is not the only driver of action in human life.

I'm not asking you to prove a negative, rather I'm asking you to prove positive claim of the inevitability of a lack of medicine and laboratories in a cooparative society.

:^)

>> No.6394583
File: 75 KB, 600x771, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394583

>>6394569
Only if you're retarded and also demand proof of the sky being blue.

>> No.6394597

>>6394583
>scientific method is retarded
>having a discussion is retarded
>accepting things as truth "BCAUS WINSTN SAID EET N IN DA MIDDLE AGES PPL WER SAD" is intelligent
k

>> No.6394604

>>6394581
>Your claim...
are you trying to explain burden of proof to someone who hasn't figured it out by himself?

>> No.6394605

>>6394559
>Public education

That's the reason I asked.

Poverty should not be a pillow, allowing you to just give up. But obviously you've had a good role model and some proper values handed to you. That's not always the case for everybody.

>> No.6394619

>>6393270
I've written my high school final essay exactly about this. the lead was to discuss a fyodor capra statement about how cooperation is better than comptetition.
fucking hippies

>> No.6394622

>>6394604
It seems. Should I just save my breath?

I'm just procrastinating anyway.

>> No.6394628

>>6394581
>Your claim was that there would be no medicine or laboratories in a a society ordered through coorporation rather than competition.
Yes, since your society doesn't exist thus neither medicine or laboratories in such a society exist.

Go ahead and prove they would though.

>I claim, that a cooperative society would work together to combat sickness, through the invention of medicine and use of laboratories, just as any other society, basen on the idea that wealth is not the only driver of action in human life.
And have nothing to back it up.

:^^^^^)

>>6394597
I just provided you the Human Development Index of the top 25 countries in the world.

All democracies. But, hey. point me to a better system of government. You have nothing to argue with, which is the only reason you have to demand for "proof" (which you will dismiss either way). It's the same as asking for proof of a blue sky. You only need to not be blind to see it.

>> No.6394631

>>6394628

You're such a liberal bitch.

>> No.6394647

>>6394192
>he managed to cause millions to starve to death in peacetime and when there was no crop failure

>peacetime
No.

>there was no crop failure
There is always a crop failure in Russia. It comes down to rule of law and logistics (two things that did not exist in Russia at the time), not weather.

>> No.6394650
File: 90 KB, 1280x1024, Social_mobility_is_lower_in_more_unequal_countries.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394650

>>6393842
This is an example of 'survivorship bias'. We're missing the number of entrepreneurs who tried to become millionaires but failed. That is, we are missing the success/failure rate of individuals starting out with nothing. Then we need to compare that to the success/failure rate of individuals starting out with a lot.

>Wait, who's the president of the US again? Oh, yeah...
Wealthy individuals bankrolled him and they are getting their moneys worth ...

>> No.6394651

>>6394628
- Technocracy.
- Anarchism.
>YFW neither has been tried.

>> No.6394662
File: 572 KB, 501x486, laughingclarke.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394662

>>6394628
>(which you will dismiss either way).
i mean, the nerve!

>> No.6394672

>>6394651
Then you can't claim they are better.

>communism is better it just was never tried
>said Lenin in 1917
:)

And again, the Churchills quote relies on the forms of governments that were tried. Stop being a retard like Foucault and actually read the fucking sentence we're arguing about

>>6394662
>doesn't capitalize the 'i' on a board about literature
Confirmed for retarded.

I'm not even a native English speaker but I put in the effort to do so.

>> No.6394682
File: 102 KB, 1280x720, the_ride_never_ends.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394682

>>6394631
>get absolutely raped in nearly every thread he posts
>calls others "bitches"

>> No.6394715
File: 343 KB, 600x1000, gold-medal[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394715

>>6394672
>but I put in the effort to do so.
here's a medal for ye
no worries, i did take it away from someone. they lost. you won

>> No.6394721

>>6394682

How?

>> No.6394730
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6394730

>>6394715
It's funny, you have no argument and you have to resort to reaction images.

My work here is done :)

>> No.6394742
File: 44 KB, 600x424, Poor-Grads-Rich-Dropouts.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6394742

Follow up to >>6394650

On the topic of education and opportunity:
>Even poor kids who do everything right don't do much better than rich kids who do everything wrong. Advantages and disadvantages, in other words, tend to perpetuate themselves. You can see that in the above chart [pic related], based on a new paper from Richard Reeves and Isabel Sawhill, presented at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston's annual conference, which is underway.

>Specifically, rich high school dropouts remain in the top about as much as poor college grads stay stuck in the bottom — 14 versus 16 percent, respectively. Not only that, but these low-income strivers are just as likely to end up in the bottom as these wealthy ne'er-do-wells. Some meritocracy.

>What's going on? Well, it's all about glass floors and glass ceilings. Rich kids who can go work for the family business — and, in Canada at least, 70 percent of the sons of the top 1 percent do just that — or inherit the family estate don't need a high school diploma to get ahead. It's an extreme example of what economists call "opportunity hoarding." That includes everything from legacy college admissions to unpaid internships that let affluent parents rig the game a little more in their children's favor.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/10/18/poor-kids-who-do-everything-right-dont-do-better-than-rich-kids-who-do-everything-wrong/

>> No.6394743

>>6394730
bye!
>>6394721
dunno but it certainly isn't the member-inside-orifice variety

>> No.6394831

>>6394628
>Yes, since your society doesn't exist thus neither medicine or laboratories in such a society exist.

I see you're feeling clever. Extend your logic: You can now argue that there will be no kind of technology in any (even slightly) different society from the one you're living in right now, because there is, in fact, no such society.

:^)

>You can't have a social democratic welfare state. They can't have coal plants.

Said Napoleon


>You can't have the scientific method. They can't have Litteracy

Said whoever

>You can't have democracy. They can't have Fire

Said some Oboogu.

I like it!

Status quo everyone! !

:^)

>> No.6394836

>>6394831
Admitted, Napoleon felt a little ahead of his time that particular evening.

>> No.6394921

>>6393270
Nice straw man.

The problem is thinking of a change in thinking as a competition. The way you phrased the question just shows how steeped you are in ideology and doesn't validate your position at all. His problem was that he was too foolish to realize that.

>> No.6394945

>>6394921
>The problem is thinking of a change in thinking as a competition.
The hippie did not specify what kind of competition.