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/lit/ - Literature

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6363099 No.6363099 [Reply] [Original]

Why is Byzantium/Eastern Rome so unloved and ignored?

>> No.6363101

>>6363099

It was quite a while back

>> No.6363102

Because Gibbon is a fat fuck.

>> No.6363122

>>6363099
There are plenty of Byzboos out there, try /int/ for example

>> No.6363144

>>6363099
I love the history of the Byzantine Empire. I hope to one day write a novel about a Viking that joins the Varangian guard and gets sucked into the palace intrigue/byzantine wars. Is the idea shit?

>> No.6363158

>>6363144

take out the fucking viking part, and sure, sounds like with work it could go somewhere

>> No.6363162

because pay debnts

>> No.6363163

>>6363099
because "muh evil christianity destroyed rome" attitude

thanks Gibbon

>> No.6363178
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6363178

Christianity shit it up. Seriously, look up the 28 priest Byzantine play or whatever it was

>> No.6363181

>>6363158
Why should I take out the Viking part, the Varangians were mostly Scandinavian. I'm from Iceland so I know lots of Viking words and history from school.

>> No.6363183

>>6363099
Byzantine experts tended to be Soviet during the cold war.

The more you know.

>> No.6363188

pure ideology

>> No.6363198

-Too many forgettable emperors
-Cultural output is less appealing to modern readers, compared to drama, historical writings, and poetry of ancient Greece and Rome
-People are generally unaware of the empire's neighbors for most of its history, or its relations with kingdoms in Western Europe. This is especially prevalent for the Early Medieval/Late Antiquity period

>> No.6363199

>>6363183
t. my ass

>> No.6363202

>>6363122
>>6363144
This. There are millions of Byzantineboos out there who bust a nut over the fact their empire is more obscure then the real Roman one.

>> No.6363211

>>6363202
The Byzantine Empire WAS the Roman Empire. Its emperors continued the line unbroken from Constantine on.

It really all comes down to the idiocy of the Enlightenment. They looked down on the Eastern Empire's Christianity.

>muh age of reason

Fucking hell thanks for reminding me that the Enlightenment is my least favorite period of history.

>> No.6363213 [DELETED] 

>>6363099
There wasn't any romantisicm, just religious fucktards. That was around the time the world started degrading to a submission to divinity, i.e. a surrender of free thought. On a mass scale, it's still with us today. :(

>> No.6363223

>>6363211
>Fucking hell thanks for reminding me that the Enlightenment is my least favorite period of history.
u mad coz they started questioning god, i.e. thinking

>> No.6363224
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6363224

>>6363213

>> No.6363227

>>6363224
meme away friend

>> No.6363271

>>6363158
Part of what the makes the Varangians so fascinating was that many were Vikings.

>> No.6363310

>>6363211
Can't be the Roman Empire without Rome.
The fall of Rome and the death of the last Western Roman Emperor in 476 AD was the end of the Roman Empire.

>> No.6363340

>>6363310
Yeah tell that to Constantine

>> No.6363357

>>6363310
The point is that it's the same state and the same political structure going on for another 1000 years.

Sure, the roman empire changed a lot, specially when they went back to greek culture. But if you compare the east roman empire and the western roman empire at 476 Byzantium is more roman that even the west.

>> No.6363404

>>6363357
Do you understand that the people living in Asia Minor, Greece, Thrace, etc. never stopped speaking Greek or having "greek culture"?

If the United States collapsed and a new government of a successor state emerged in Texas, you wouldn't say "Then the Americans all adopted Texan accents and Texan culture and continued their empire for another thousand years." You would easily see that it was simply Texan people who already had Texan accents and Texan culture operating a state much as they always had. This situation isn't much different.

>> No.6363409
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6363409

>>6363310
Roman empire ended in 1922

>> No.6363411

>>6363183
>Soviet Byzantine "experts"
More like "Muh Third Rome" conspiracy theorists who were encouraged by the state to spread propaganda that linked Russia more closely to European history.

>> No.6363433

>>6363409

now that's what i call a Hot Take™

>> No.6363445

>>6363404
Do you understand that we're talking about the Roman Empire and not the demographics of the empire? Romans only existed in Rome, but the leaders of all the provinces and both empires were still romans ruling different culture groups.

The ERE was still roman for a lot of years, even their generals were romans, like Belisarius.

>> No.6363448

People just have a hard time thinking of it as the Roman empire. Seems to be pretty adored on here though

>> No.6363492
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6363492

>>6363099
>There are plebs on /lit/ RIGHT NOW that think that Turkish conquerors renamed Kostantiniyye to Istanbul

>> No.6363549

>>6363404
>Do you understand that the people living in Asia Minor, Greece, Thrace, etc. never stopped speaking Greek or having "greek culture"?
Entirely irrelevant. Greek culture was prevalent in these territories even before the Romans absorbed them; there was no 'Greek assertion of culture' which somehow shrugged off the 'Romaness' of the west.
That anon is correct, it was the direct continuation of the old unified empire, and not only in political/administrative aspects either.

>> No.6363570

>>6363549
>there was no 'Greek assertion of culture' which somehow shrugged off the 'Romaness' of the west.
That's actually exactly what I said, so how is it "entirely irrelevant?"

>> No.6363577

Basil wants to be hardcore but his court eunuch won't let him.

>> No.6363578

>>6363099
I don't think it is.

>> No.6363589
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6363589

It retained the refined culture of their predecessors, but did very little to advance it. (Other than Greek fire of course.)

With the exception of Justinian, it was much less a "rise and fall" of an empire and more of a long, painful decline of a people trying to preserve antiquity against a world that long moved on.

But at least they were rich for a while.

>> No.6363595

>>6363570
Because it doesn't have anything to do with Roman political machinery, identity, cultural and social aspects continuing unchanged.

>> No.6363606

I just read a short essay about how the Byzantines were perceived by Muslims before and during the Crusades.

>traditional enemies of Muslims in the Near East were the Byzantines
>Muslims thought of Constantinople as the greatest city in the world and knew Byzantium to be this fertile place with growing fruit orchards and whatever the fuck Muslims wank over
>thought the Byzantines were sexual degenerates
>Muslim sources say the Byzantines were gorgeous with white skin, blonde-hair and freckles
>sometimes they got their geography wrong and said the Byzantines ruled Europe as far as Spain
>when the Crusaders first arrived the Muslims thought they were Byzantines
>eventually they realized the difference and came to despise the Crusaders more than Byzantines
>the more they hated Crusaders, they less they hated Byzantines, until they only saw the Byzantines in a positive light and stopped accusing them of being sodomites and stuff
>even after Constantinople was sacked by Crusaders, it still had a reputation as a paradise to Muslims

Was pretty interesting. I thought it was funny how Muslim sources talked about how white the Byzantines were, while IIRC sources from the Crusaders would say the opposite

>> No.6363632

>>6363606
Do you have the name and author of the essay?

>> No.6363646

>>6363632

http://www.doaks.org/resources/publications/doaks-online-publications/crusades-from-the-perspective-of-byzantium-and-the-muslim-world/cr05.pdf

>> No.6363664

>>6363646
Champion, thank you.

>> No.6363677

>>6363606
That's very interesting, for a (very scurrilous) Latin view of the Byzantines there's the works of Liutprand of Cremona:

>I was led before Nicephorus-a monstrosity of a man, a pygmy, fat-headed and like a mole as to the smallness of his eyes; disgusting with his short, broad, thick, and half hoary beard; disgraced by a neck an inch long; very bristly through the length and thickness of his hair; in color an Ethiopian; one whom it would not be pleasant to meet in the middle of the night; with extensive belly, lean of loin, very long of hip considering his short stature, small of shank, proportionate as to his heels and feet; clad in a garment costly but too old, and foul-smelling and faded through age; shod with Sicyonian shoes; bold of tongue, a fox by nature, in perjury, and lying a Ulysses.

>The king of the Greeks wears long hair, a tunic, long sleeves, a hood; is lying, crafty, without pity, sly as a fox, proud, falsely humble, miserly, and greedy; lives on garlic, onions, and leeks, and drinks bath-water. The king of the Franks, on the contrary, is beautifully shorn ; wears a garment not at all like a woman's garment, and a hat; is truthful, without guile, merciful enough when it is right, severe when it is necessary, always truly humble, never miserly

>> No.6363684

>>6363677

I think it's fair to assume that the Byzantines had more in common with their neighbors to the East

>> No.6363692

>>6363677
Is this ancient shitposting?

>> No.6363705

>>6363606
>>6363646
>Check amazon for the full book
>Cheapest one is a used for 280 bucks
fucking hell seriously? Is there a full online pdf somewhere?

>> No.6363715
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6363715

>>6363677
Eastern scum, when will they ever learn?

>> No.6363722
File: 22 KB, 200x300, byzantium.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6363722

>>6363144
Check out Byzantium by Stephen Lawhead.

He's basically a b-list fantasy writer, but this one pretty straight historical fiction. Protag is an Irish monk who makes it to Byzantium in the company of the vikings who once enslaved him as he first set out for that city. It's a big, wandering yet engaging story, like James Clavell or Michener.

It's a pretty Christian book, so if that triggers you don't read it. But it's not just for true believers -- I'm an atheist yet I found the Christian elements moving and appropriate in context. Particularly the conversion of the vikings, which is the element that most sticks with me these many years after I read it.

>> No.6363724

>>6363705
I managed to find a copy on scridb, behind the dumb paywall though

https://www.scribd.com/doc/229752057/Angeliki-E-Laiou-The-Crusades-From-the-Perspective-of-Byzantium-the-Muslim-World

>> No.6363730

>>6363606
>sometimes they got their geography wrong and said the Byzantines ruled Europe as far as Spain

One reason for this was that they called both Constantinople and Rome "Rum".

>> No.6363757

What makes you say that? Byzantium isn't studied any less (maybe even more) than High Medieval France or Germany. There's a shitton of Byzantine historiography, just go to a university library and look at the hundreds of journals of Byzantine journals.

>> No.6363765

>>6363692
I honestly think the answer is yes. I think this fucker is talking out his ass to get a rise out of people.

>> No.6363768

>>6363724
You can find almost anything on bookzz

>> No.6363775

>>6363730
Was it ever used in Muslim sources to refer to the city specifically? I was under the impression 'Rum' was used mainly to refer to the Byzantine Greeks or their territories, and Arabic sources refer to Constantinople as 'al-Qustantiniyya'

>> No.6363826

>>6363181
Russian would be better, because the Byzantines "civilized" the Slavs. In the early days of Russia, the towns would often elect officials, and that egalitarian mindset would be a nice foil to the intrigues of the Byzantine court

>> No.6364555

>>6363102
This actually may be the best answer in this thread.

>> No.6364631

>>6363310
This is Plutarchian-level simplification.

When the empire shifted eastwards, guess what the inhabitants therein, the rulers of, and outsiders dealing with, referred to it as.

A. Byzantium (or variant) Babby's first AP World History class?
B. The Eastern Empire We have a geographical savant, here!
C. The [insert name of ruling emperor here]-ian Empire And Body of Civil Law was named the Justinian Code, save for its first component.
D. Roman (and variants) "Process of elimination? Luck? Grateful Gods at Google?

>> No.6364634

>>6364631
Well fuck, egg on my face and my attempted autism.

>> No.6364687
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6364687

What were the consequences of calling the emperor a faggot to his face?

Do you think there was a such as palace banter? Like the emperor and his courtiers would start tossing around a football, and they have a good laugh about that one time the emperor blinded the wrong guy.

>> No.6365031

>>6363099
Gibbon and Hegel. It was Toynbee being a bulgariaboo and a greekboo, that popularized it again.

>> No.6365082

>>6365031
Gibbon wrote half of his major work about Byzantium, that hardly seems like he ignored it. This same shit comes up regularly "Gibbon hated Christianity, Gibbon hated Byzantium" no he didn't. He attempted to analyse history objectively and report what happened not just repeat the hagiographic traditional readings. He saw the Byzantine empire as a slow decline, despite how long it took, and he didn't just blame barbarian Arabs but was willing to acknowledge the problems of internal politics. People apparently want one-dimensional history, and one-dimensional readings of historians rather than nuance.

>> No.6365102

>>6363158
What, the early varangians were vikings, that is where the names comes from. Väringar, vikings that travalled east.

>> No.6365106

>>6363677
>in color an Ethiopian; one whom it would not be pleasant to meet in the middle of the night
Oh lawdy

>> No.6365109

>>6363677
It's /pol/

>> No.6365113

>>6365082
>barbarian Arabs

Why would he had blamed the arabs? It was the turks who took the city.

>> No.6365126

>>6363549
Common coinage, pan-hellenic councils, joined cultural games and drama competition, common center of divine worship (oracle at delphi)... etc all after the conquest of alexander. Such fucking bullshit.

There are countless of 1st hand sources that talk about not "greeks" but hellenic culture.

>> No.6365138

>>6365113
But it was the Arabs who bit into the Byzantium territories before the Turks arrived.

>> No.6365208

>>6363646
Cheers for this.

>> No.6365224

>>6365208
>Another continuity with the earlier image of the Byzantines is connected with their
physical beauty.The cosmographer al-Qazwı¯nı¯ (d.682/1285) states that the Byzantines
are mostly white, with blond hair and sturdy bodies.20 Similarly, the geographer Ibn
Sa‘ı¯d (d.678 or 685/1274 or 1286) stresses the whiteness and blondness of the Byzantines,
stating that the inhabitants of the sixth climate are characterized by extreme whiteness,
blue eyes, and blond hair and they often have freckles on their faces.21 These physical
attributes were highly valued, as can be deduced from various adab works and special
manuals, which delineate the prevalent Arab typology of beauty.

Well shit.

>> No.6365283

>>6363144
Look up sidebottom

>> No.6365286

Because they contributed nothing to history. Greeks contributed democracy, philosophy and science. Romans improved bureaucracy, laws, government, military strategy. Byzantines just rode the glory of the former Roman empire.

Their #1 achievement is to survive many more centuries than they norumally would have. And there is merit in that but not enough to make you remembered.

>> No.6365301

>>6365286
But they're bitchin in age of empires 2

>> No.6365303

>>6365286
/thread

>> No.6365317

>>6365286
Thousand years isn't enough for you? If western rome fell at 476 AD, Byzantine fell 1453 AD. How many thousands years are needed? Because there isn't a single empire in history that lasted longer.

>> No.6366934

>>6365286
>whig theory of history
It is the "human nature" of historiography.

>> No.6367067

>>6363722
> protagonist named Protag
> triggers
That book sound like a hack and you need to get back to tumblr.