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/lit/ - Literature

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File: 64 KB, 700x668, blue curtains.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6358355 No.6358355 [Reply] [Original]

What are some books that are so meticulously planned and written to the extent that very precise analysis such as in the "curtains are blue" pic is actually feasible? Whether it's actually stated by the author or just strongly hinted does not matter. I'm not looking for an argument based on this picture - I'm just interested in any books with many intended subtleties to pick up on.

>> No.6358429

>>6358355
Catcher in the Rye.

>> No.6358432

>>6358355
Da Great Gatsby

>> No.6358440

every book

>> No.6358444

My Twisted World

>> No.6358445

>>6358355
Pale Fire
Large amounts of Shakespeare

>> No.6358483

Most books. Why would the author take the time to mention something like that? Do you think every author is some 14 year old trying to write out a movie in book form?

>> No.6358487

While most decent books are like that, some people could force meaning in minor remarks. That pic is probably an example made by someone who couldn't even think of a single case in which he had heard someone doing a free interpretation so he had to push it that far. Exaggeration is a tool mostly used by those without actual arguments.

>> No.6358488

>>6358483
Of course this applies to a good degree in almost all books, but I'm looking for those that go almost over-the-top in the meticulous amount of subtlety they put in details and actions.

>> No.6358500

>>6358483
A polish noblist Szymborska once took a highshool finishing test about her own poem. She got 70% - her interpretation was too shallow for exams stadards. After that she forbid to use her works at any kind of exams.

>> No.6358516

>>6358500
>Szymborska is dead.

>> No.6358528

>>6358355
Pleb post. Every book and all its chosen words represent something conscious or unconscious.
A writer specifically decides about each and every word(if he is writing alone). Look at every word and ask why this and not another? Why indeed. There must be a reason but we will most likely never know it because the author didn't fully know it either.

>> No.6358538

>>6358500
[citation needed]

>> No.6358542

>>6358355
Ulysses
The Sound and the Fury
Gravity's Rainbow

>> No.6358543

>>6358355
Possibly Ulysses. Because he made it like that with purpose.

But in general no books, not even shakespeare or milton.

>> No.6358544

>>6358528
>>6358487
>>6358483
>>6358440
Kill yourself, my man.

>> No.6358547

>>6358544
>my teachers are so dumb

Sorry to shatter your bubble and make you realize that knowing less does not put you on equal footing with those that know more.

>> No.6358548

>>6358500
Another problem of author and critic is that a work of art can know things the maker of it doesn't. When I wrote an iconographic study of Grant Wood's American Gothic, I had several complaints--one in print from Hugh Kenner--that I was assigning to Grant Wood knowledge he didn't have. I replied that the painting knew these things for him. Of a study I wrote of Eudora Welty, Miss Welty replied, with great kindness and friendliness, that she did not intend any of the symbolism I saw in her work. This is, let us say, daunting, but again I think MIss Welty, seeing her stories in her way, which is always perforce inside outwards, does not realize the extent she has kept the contours and symbols of Ovid's Metamorphoses (which is what I was writing about) that we can see from the outside looking in.

>> No.6358556

>>6358548
Its fine though. We can both analyze a work without thinking about the artists intentions and after knowing their exact intentions.
We can have multiple analysis in our head and like them all.

>> No.6358559

>>6358543

pleb detected

>> No.6358561

>>6358516
So? How is that relevant?

>>6358538
"It was exactly like that" - Joseph Stalin

>> No.6358568

>>6358547
Teachers are mostly dumb though. There is a negative selection for this job. It may be not so visible in humanities cause muh interpretation, but in science it's just painful, in highshool I was better at physics than my teacher.

>> No.6358572

>>6358568
dont live in the US.

>> No.6358574

>>6358561
>So? How is that relevant?
Szymborska the elephant is dead.

>> No.6358580

>>6358355
Paradise Lost

I know it's a book not a poem thank you anon

>> No.6358590

>>6358574
As much as I love those magnificent creatures I don't see a connection

>> No.6358595

>>6358572
I'm eurofag. It's not any better here, nobody wants to teach in highschool unless they have to.

>> No.6358596

>>6358547
>>6358568

It's not even just that teachers are dumb, it's the shit they're required to teach. My high school english teachers were plenty smart in terms of just discussing shit, but when it came to what we needed to write to get points in exams, they just told us point blank that we need to tick certain boxes and say what the markers want to hear - which is all bullshit. They don't give a fuck about your analysis of the story and themes, they just wanted to see you recite that a low angle shot is imposing, that blue symbolises depression, and that you know how to abuse a thesaurus.

>> No.6358606

>>6358547
"those who can do, those who can't teach"

Tao Lin

>> No.6358618

>>6358590
Become acquainted with the mahabharata and the elephant in this room.

>> No.6358648

>>6358355
The author's intent is meaningless

>> No.6358653

>>6358606
Do people actually say this ?
This must be american

>> No.6358765

>>6358561
>So? How is that relevant
It's a play on the Death of the Author school of thought. It has nothing to do with her literal death.

>> No.6358770

>>6358648
This, the book is an end in itself.

>> No.6358787

>>6358548
>I was assigning to Grant Wood knowledge he didn't have. I replied that the painting knew these things for him.
This shit really rubs me the wrong way.

>> No.6358808

>>6358765
>It's a play on the Death of the Author school of thought.
>school of thoght
It's a fucking minimal part of deconstruction, it's not even an absolute thing and you should take it as a consideration when authors say things like "I'm not projecting anything in those four pages of first person monologue about fucking his mom, I wrote that just because, you guys!"

>> No.6358827

What does it symbolize when the narrator talks about there being lots of new and renovated buildings, many with exorbitant decoration?

>> No.6358833

>>6358808
You should actually discard it entirely, because it's pure nonsense. The author may not publicly reveal their intention, but that is the meaning of the work. Making the work into a magical unwritten thing full of any meaning you insert results in garbage like >>6358548.

>> No.6358835
File: 376 KB, 1145x1536, 1422195734862.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6358835

>>6358355
The blue circle should say "What the creator of this image thinks the author meant"

>> No.6358848

>>6358833
The point is that authors cn lie to themselves as much as anyone who wants to be an author does. It doesn't mean that you should ignore the context of the work or intended play on words. The author can also know more than you do.
It's just to say that the author isn't the end all of interpretation, which is right, but americans get hooked just with that shitty concept.

>> No.6358859

>>6358355
Learn to post-structuralism. It doesn't matter what the author meant or not (intention) because meaning is separate from that. That's what's special about literature.

>> No.6358983

http://www.en.utexas.edu/Classes/Bremen/e316k/316kprivate/scans/mccarthy.html

>> No.6359086
File: 9 KB, 615x159, 1364760406695.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6359086

daily reminder, faggots

>> No.6359095

>>6359086
>shit written by critics place the critic above the artist
Wow, what an insight.

>> No.6359103

>>6359086
Scaruffi is an egocentric madman.

>> No.6359119 [DELETED] 

>>6359086
Wow, great read, thanks for sharing. I like the point on disregarding symbolism just to have it, and the idea that life is greater than thought is something I'll have to think about when writing. An idea of realism probably gives a good opposite mindset to look at with possibilities of metaphor and symbolism.

>> No.6359125 [DELETED] 

>>6359086
Wow, great read, thanks for sharing. I like the point on disregarding symbolism just to have it, and the idea that life is greater than thought is something I'll have to think about when writing. An idea of realism probably gives a good opposite mindset to look at with possibilities of metaphor and symbolism.

>> No.6359131

>>6358983
Wow, great read, thanks for sharing. I like the point on disregarding symbolism just to have it, and the idea that life is greater than thought is something I'll have to think about when writing. An idea of realism probably gives a good opposite mindset to look at with possibilities of metaphor and symbolism.

>> No.6359157
File: 166 KB, 600x401, @ (6).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6359157

>>6359103
with a good taste of music from the 50s up until the 90s

>> No.6360091

>>6359086
scaruffi a bitch nigga

>> No.6360098

Nabokov usually has a shitload of allusions and etymological puns in his work.

>> No.6360174

>>6358355
>le blue symbolizes depression

This seems like something a fantasy reader would share on Facebook.

>> No.6360206

>>6359086
Holy shit is this real?

>> No.6360244

>>6358355
Anything Hemingway.

>> No.6360246

maybe a dan brown level writes shit like "the curtains were blue" and "the important man walked through the large doors" but a reasonable writer shouldn't include adjectives for no reason.

it probably happens more with poetry.

i do remember a poem we read in english when we were 13/14 about some cats being drowned, and our teacher pointed out the frequent use of the letter O represented the bubbles emanating from the cat's mouth. cue intense skepticism from the class. the teacher admitted it was bullshit but it was something to write down. yay standardised education.

>> No.6360302
File: 7 KB, 249x249, 1421719339840.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6360302

>>6360246
Almost every writing tip my English teachers gave me turned out to be horrible fanfiction tier shit when I got older.

>"It was a hot day". Come on, anon, grab a thesaurus and use longer words
>Can't this character be female?
>Never start a story In Media Res, people want long introductions about your characters' daily lives and minor idiosyncrasies
>Use adjectives before every noun
>Don't use dialogue longer than two or three sentences
>True art can't have uplifting themes

>> No.6360311

>>6360302
you obviously had shitty english teachers. if you think that means that all english teachers are like that then you also had shitty logic teachers.

>> No.6360319

>>6360311
It seems like the mentality of /pol/ has made you oversensitive to anti-intellectualism. I clearly stated that they were my teachers, it wasn't intended to be some generalized small town folsky wisdom 'bout them teachin' ladies.

>> No.6360492

>>6359086
always thought this scaruffi piece was fake

>> No.6360530

>>6358355
Majority if not all of the literature canon

>> No.6360565
File: 373 KB, 974x1000, the certains were blue.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6360565

>>6358355
Most books, really. Atleast those that I have read.

>> No.6361323

>>6358596
>they just wanted to see you recite that a low angle shot is imposing
This so much. It's so incredibly mundane and i want to kill myself everytime i have to say it.

>> No.6363598

>>6358556
Underrated post. Stop trying to be so dogmatic, for Christ's sake. If the author's intent and meaning are known, they should be given respect, but not end all discussion. Obviously the meaning and public role of the work doesn't end with intent (and in many cases, authorial intent is a complete speculation, as in most older works), but one can at least get a sense of whether you are reading an author who is likely to have attached significance to curtains. Are you reading Flaubert, Tolstoy, Bulgakov, Nabokov--authors who endlessly revised and polished each word? Then yes, the curtains show authorial intent--you can argue over what they mean, but it's silly to pretend the author didn't consider it. Of course the curtains may give each reader their own special snowflake personal insights and unique interpretation, but often we can apply research and probability to our musings and come to vague consensuses.

>> No.6363819

>>6358483
Sometimes authors like to make the book enjoyable to even novice readers, not everyone is a patrician masterrace, buddy. Sometimes immersion and little details really do add to the enjoyment, granted yeah most of the time little details that have some re-occurring similarity are intended to have an underlying meaning
>>6358596
This