This thread is for each and every person on /lit/ who has ever expressed the sentiment that reading makes you superior. I want to know from you superior people what is the virtue of reading.

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Anonymous Sat Mar 28 17:59:29 2015 No.6328880 [Reply] [Original]

This thread is for each and every person on /lit/ who has ever expressed the sentiment that reading makes you superior.

I want to know from you superior people what is the virtue of reading.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:03:02 2015 No.6328890 >/lit/ literature

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:04:17 2015 No.6328894 >>6328890 And what could be a better topic for a literature board than the value of literature itself? That's the most important question that can be asked.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:04:44 2015 No.6328898 You realize how full of shit everyone on /lit/ is Also Revolutionary Road gives Moby Dick a run for its money

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:05:09 2015 No.6328899

Literature as a medium has the most potential to relay experiences, thoughts, ideas, lessons, wisdom, etc. than any other entertainment medium we have. Through literature you can learn from the wisdom and experiences of others in the most effective communication medium possible, where authors can not only relay events to you bit use literary devices to craft the experience before your very eyes, a lifetimes worth of good can be contained in one of these texts, all in a format that is portable and can be approached at any time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:11:42 2015 No.6328921 >>6328899 Then how can a picture be worth a thousand words?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:14:07 2015 No.6328928

>>6328899
Speech is also a medium of communication. But you will grant that there is speech that is useless or harmful, as in the case of mindless insults, for example, which achieve nothing but arousing ire in others.
So my question to you is, how do you distinguish what literature is communication of the good sort, and what literature is useless or harmful?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:17:28 2015 No.6328940

>>6328921
I think Napoleon meant that quote in a far different way IIRC. He means that during campaign having a visual image of his objective or enemy is much better and more expedient than being given long, flushed-out written descriptions of what's going on.

It was only later than everyone added on a supposed deep artistic meaning to it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:19:14 2015 No.6328947 >>6328928 Once you write something down, you don't have to memorize it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:21:34 2015 No.6328953 >>6328947 Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:23:37 2015 No.6328958

It is more difficult yet more rewarding than other popular entertainment ie television. Reading provokes thought. It is also a quiet and relatively un commercialized activity. I guess basically what I'm trying to say is that it takes a certain training and a certain amount of effort to read literature, in contrast to tv, most movies, most music, and especially video games. How many times have you heard someone say "Reading: oh I don't have time for that." before switching on netflix, or "Reading: so pretentious" while thinking about buying a new apple computer to show off in a coffeeshop. Spite born out of envy. Reading doesn't make you a "better" person but it is a very becoming activity. Like I respect people who tie their own flies and fish for steelhead more than people who watch sports on tv.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:23:47 2015 No.6328959

>>6328947
Plato on writing:

>If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:26:30 2015 No.6328966

I don't think that reading causes superiority or anything like that.

I do think that reading requires a higher level of involvement than music or movies. You can "watch" a movie or "listen" to an album with practically no involvement whatsoever. On the other hand, reading has a higher baseline of mental activity, even skimming a book requires more effort than passively watching a movie.

Feel free to argue against me. I haven't talked about this notion much so I'm curious about how much sense it makes.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:26:57 2015 No.6328967

>>6328958
>It is more difficult yet more rewarding than other popular entertainment ie television.

How does reading reward you?

> Reading provokes thought.

Good thoughts? Bad thoughts? Or every kind of thought?

> I guess basically what I'm trying to say is that it takes a certain training and a certain amount of effort to read literature

Granted, but many evil or useless pursuits require effort, so you haven't really told me about the virtue of reading itself, only that it produces a certain kind of discipline. Now, why is the discipline gained in reading better than or as good as any other kind of discipline, like looking after a dog or exercising your body?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:27:13 2015 No.6328968

>>6328928
Speech isn't crafted for long periods of time with care and attention to everything said, text is much better unless you need to say something quickly. Obviously writing can be bad as well, and what makes good writing separate from bad writing is a different question entirely that I don't feel like getting into. But writing is undeniably the best method of communication of ideas we have.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:29:09 2015 No.6328974

>>6328966
Why is mental activity good? You also speak of mental activity as a quantity, something that you can have more or less of. Does that mean that if there were an activity that involved more "mental activity" than reading that it would always be preferable to do that than to read?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:30:22 2015 No.6328976

>>6328958

You honestly could throw literature in there, as well. There's as much pulpy/fast food lit as there is movies/music/whatever. Most other forms of entertainment, outside of what's purely commercial-oriented, provokes thought as well. Maybe except music, I'll grant you that; it's a much more visceral/emotional art form than others.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:33:10 2015 No.6328985

>>6328968
There are people that beg to differ. For example, Plato thought that writing was a sterile form of communication because you could never ask the text a question and receive an answer, like you can in a regular kind of conversation. He also thought that truths could be more readily impressed on someone through verbal speech than through writing, and that a direct display of virtue inspires people more than a written account of virtue. Orators also seem to have a great impact on their listeners. Do you think that you could teach a child how important it is to look both ways before crossing the road better by standing next to him and gesturing and admonishing him with gravely spoken words, or by a formally written text?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:34:51 2015 No.6328995 >>6328953 >>6328959 Both. There's long term memory and short term memory.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:36:02 2015 No.6328999
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>>6328967

>how does reading reward you

It's ineffable. If it didn't would you be here?

>Reading provokes thought

Yes. Books get you to think about the world in new ways or even make sense of your own thoughts, or give voice to feelings you were barely aware of.

>better than or as good as any other kind of discipline, like looking after a dog or exercising your body?

It's not. There are plenty of worthy activities. Our society tends to value discipline over instant gratification. Getting to high levels in WoW and building a scale replica of the Vatican out of match sticks are both useless activities but I know which one I'd rather do.

IDK Anon just accept what I say as fact.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:40:59 2015 No.6329009

>>6328999
You are making out like reading is some kind of transcendent mystery. Do you really think that the virtue of reading is that undefinable?

You say that reading gets you to "think in new ways", but I don't see how that is always a good thing. For example, I wouldn't want my sister to read something and "think in a new way" if "thinking in a new way" meant thinking that promiscuity is a virtue, and yet I know there are books that say exactly that, even books by so-called intellectuals.

This is what I am afraid of when it comes to reading. What if instead of teaching you something it instead fosters delusion, misinformation and vice?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:41:11 2015 No.6329011

>>6328985
>Do you think that you could teach a child how important it is to look both ways before crossing the road better by standing next to him and gesturing and admonishing him with gravely spoken words, or by a formally written text?

Use the best tool for the job.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:42:16 2015 No.6329014 >>6329011 So when is writing and reading the best tool for the job?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:42:41 2015 No.6329017

>>6328974
>Why is mental activity good? You also speak of mental activity as a quantity, something that you can have more or less of. Does that mean that if there were an activity that involved more "mental activity" than reading that it would always be preferable to do that than to read?

Health-wise, mental activity is good for staving off the effects of old age on the mind (Alzheimer's, dementia, etc.). Also, I didn't mean to imply that reading has *more* mental activity; I meant that the bar is set higher for reading than it is for music or movies. Obviously you can reach equal levels of mental activity through music or movies, but there are fewer barriers to entry with music or movies because you can experience them (relatively) passively.

And no, I wouldn't say that the activity involving more mental stimulation would always be preferable (unless you were looking for higher levels of mental stimulation). This theoretical activity involving more mental activity would probably not be able to offer all of the things that movies, music, and literature have to offer so it won't always be preferable.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:43:40 2015 No.6329020 >>6328880 Out of all the mediums it's the most personal. It's the most direct access you can get into the head of an artist without actually needing to talk with him in person.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:43:51 2015 No.6329021 File: 49 KB, 640x480, dfgfdgsg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6328880 Reading is a skill useful to your brain when making symbolic conceptual relationships intelligible.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:49:57 2015 No.6329044 >>6329014 It depends. I'd rather read and write about topics like this on a forum like 4chan instead of talking about with 10 other people on Skype.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:50:05 2015 No.6329045

>>6329020
Do you think that you a reader of Aristotle would know more about the person of Aristotle than a close friend of his that never read his works?
Or what about a more personal writer like St. Augustine or Nietzsche? Do you think that readers of these writers know them better than those who knew them directly?

And what is the virtue of knowing someone's person? Are you saying that your reason for reading is because you are interested in making the acquaintance of men from different eras? For what purpose?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:51:58 2015 No.6329050 >>6328880 >virtue

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:55:16 2015 No.6329059

>>6329045

Friends would have knew more about the appearance that the person has, his desires and uncouncious body language

The words in the other hand speak about how the person thinks, which reveals the nature of his life and worldview.

You can see a person as extremely sensitive (aka faggot) because of their body language and such (which could be related to the bodylanguage of their family or something), but he can be extremely strong in his way to view the world and himself and how he uses his will

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:55:21 2015 No.6329060 I find there to be correlation between reading and intelligence.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:57:57 2015 No.6329068 >>6329060 It could be that intelligence relates to non-real entities like ideas and symbolism, and reading/language is largely based on that

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:58:15 2015 No.6329069 >>6329009 >fosters delusion, misinformation, and vice. just don't let your sis on /pol/ /r9k/ or /b/ lol

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:00:28 2015 No.6329074

>>6329017
So you view reading fundamentally as being a form of exercise for your brain?

>>6329021
And what is your purpose in seeking out the true relationships between symbols? And does reading do this better than reading the Elements of Euclid, or algebra, or computer programming, or forms of meditation that do not involve reading?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:01:34 2015 No.6329078

>>6329009

You are putting your virtue like something that trascends language and reading. But your virtue is just a product of your morality, which was teached to you in the same way you see promiscuity as a sin

Like this african tribe where you can rape and the woman don't feel ashamed of being raped in public

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:04:34 2015 No.6329088

>>6329078
>Like this african tribe where you can rape and the woman don't feel ashamed of being raped in public

So rape isn't shameful because some women somewhere aren't ashamed of it? Does this mean that murder isn't shameful because there are gangs that approve of it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:08:13 2015 No.6329105 File: 905 KB, 245x225, 1984432247.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >this thread

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:08:37 2015 No.6329110

>>6329045
It's hard to say but since Aristotle's close friends are all dead his written works are the closest we can get to knowing him.

Same reasons for making the acquaintance of anyone regardless of era or medium. With books though, you can be more choosey instead of being limited to the people who are close by to you in real life.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:09:14 2015 No.6329113

>>6328880

Think of it as a movie that doesn't need a budget, so it can follow more esoteric, bizarre and otherwise non-commercial artistic values. Yes, in the end it's just entertainment like anything else, but you underrate exactly how hard it is to entertain smart people. They (we) tend to be unsatisfied with experiencing the same thing twice. It's one of the hardest things an artist can do. You have to be a genius to entertain someone who's seen it all and didn't like most of it.

But no, there's no demonstrable or quantifiable benefit to reading, besides improving base level literacy skills. Why people would represent that reading is so important is anyone's guess, but it's half industry hype and half nerds looking for a source of esteem.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:10:17 2015 No.6329115

You are putting the effect (*feeling shameful*, *feeling guilty*) as an ahistorical evidence of the cause of why something is wrong, but this is a misunderstanding.

But feeling guilty, shameful, etc, is a product of a historical evolution of the morality of your society, you can't use as evidence the last stage of it and put it as the first cause.

You see the morality as something static, without boundaries on your reality, but it's actually something really temporal.

Do you really find that when those aztecs sacrificed souls for the eternal goddess they found themselves guilt in their internal dialogue? They would have said that you were a coward and selfish for not doing so. And a civilian in those times who neglected doing it would have felt the same shame that you feel about some stuff now in modernity.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:11:08 2015 No.6329119 >>6329074 My personal purpose is not relevant, but I can imagine someone wanting to identify doxic misreadings, or to translate a text for an unfamiliar reader.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:14:43 2015 No.6329127

>>6329115
>You are putting the effect (*feeling shameful*, *feeling guilty*) as an ahistorical evidence of the cause of why something is wrong, but this is a misunderstanding.

By shameful I meant morally reprehensible.

>You see the morality as something static, without boundaries on your reality, but it's actually something really temporal.

Perhaps the view that morality is relative is just a boundary on your reality that is only temporal.

>Do you really find that when those aztecs sacrificed souls for the eternal goddess they found themselves guilt in their internal dialogue?

Wait, you accused me of judging morality according to feelings of guilt, but that's what you are doing. You are saying that morality is based on feelings. I am saying that human sacrifice is immoral even if the aztecs did not feel shame about their immoral acts.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:16:23 2015 No.6329133 Plain and simple, reading allows us to learn from others, so that we can then expand on what they have already learned. Reading gives us the wheel, so that we may then invent the carriage.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:16:54 2015 No.6329137 >>6329110 So, why is reading a book by some old genius better than having a conversation on some internet chatroom where the person really "opens up" and reveals their person to you?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:18:24 2015 No.6329142

>>6329133
But the possibility of learning is not itself an ultimate good, is it?
I asked originally what reading is good for, what its virtue is. Your response is, "it gives me the possibility of learning something". Well, so what? Going to a museum gives you the possibility of learning something, but what if that museum is a museum of propaganda and lies?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:24:37 2015 No.6329167

>>6328880
The benefits of reading regularly are pretty well studied. It's good for your brain, it's good for your emotional and mental health. It helps you become more relatable and empathetic as well. Plus, when you go on a date and you've read books he or she has read it usually makes them more interested in you.

Reading text is still the fastest and more reliable way of receiving information.

So I don't think anyone is inherently superior for reading, but those who read will have a higher capacity for self-improvement and development that a non-reader will miss out on.

>>6328940
Interesting

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:31:33 2015 No.6329197

>>6329127

>Perhaps the view that morality is relative is just a boundary on your reality that is only temporal.

So what? It still makes it a belief so my statements still holds. If something is relative and in it's relativeness it's believed as something objective, it's still a belief based on that relativeness, it only depends on who says it.

>Wait, you accused me of judging morality according to feelings of guilt, but that's what you are doing. You are saying that morality is based on feelings. I am saying that human sacrifice is immoral even if the aztecs did not feel shame about their immoral acts.

And why it's immoral for you? we can start from there.

For example, in Gorgias Socrates leaves really clear that doing injustice is bad only if you have a soul. That's a large big assumption.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:33:09 2015 No.6329203 >>6329137 I'd say that reading and conversation are equally good things. Why not do both?

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:33:52 2015 No.6329204

It's not the act of reading itself; it's the wisdom gained from the material. So reading is only "virtuous" to the extent that the content of what you're reading is good.

All you anti-intellectual fucks need to realize this and stop dismissing it altogether.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:40:40 2015 No.6329226
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>>6328899
>Literature as a medium has the most potential to relay experiences, thoughts, ideas, lessons, wisdom, etc. than any other entertainment medium we have.
Nah, that would be kinography.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:43:10 2015 No.6329237

>>6329137
You answered your own question. Having conversations with people in chat-rooms or just looking through forum posts can be worthwhile. You can learn a lot from it and really get to know people.

It's only one form of reading though. You can only have certain kinds of conversations in chat-rooms with certain kinds of people for a certain length of time about certain topics in a certain way.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:57:42 2015 No.6329292

Literature mobilizes and stores information; information is all that there is. It, like anything else, is the medium and the message; and in reading books, you are effectively expanding who you are by increasing what you know.

Memes (not in the strict internet sense) are the new genes; they are subject, like everything, to natural selection.

Go forth: select and propagate–!

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 20:01:16 2015 No.6329305

>>6328880

Simple.

If we are going to take the statement "knowledge is power" as an axiom, then reading is a means for one to become more powerful. And I hope I needn't explain why power makes one superior.

Information is wealth in its highest form; wealth is influence.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 20:03:50 2015 No.6329312 >>6329074 >So you view reading fundamentally as being a form of exercise for your brain? Yeah, I'd say so. I like reading too; I don't just read for long-term benefits.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 22:24:26 2015 No.6329833 >>6328880 The virtue of reading is that it makes you superior.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 22:25:26 2015 No.6329839 >>6329305 >Information is wealth in its highest form; wealth is influence. No, time is wealth in its highest form.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 23:00:12 2015 No.6329946 >>6329839 Lol, for you the individual. Try thinking bigger picture. Anyway, what is time but an interchange of information.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 23:02:48 2015 No.6329958 >>6328880 The aquisition of experience outside of your immediate sphere.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 29 02:58:19 2015 No.6330609 File: 10 KB, 200x318, 1409853892641.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6329068 >non-real entities like ideas and symbolism >this whole thread

Anonymous Sun Mar 29 07:34:44 2015 No.6331202
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>>6329142
You do not "directly" accept what you read, listen, even see. Books, not solely learning. There's tons of shit one could say from analytic thinking to emphaty, points of view to whatever...

In case of museum of propoganda and lies, you have to find the truth by yourself. You either understand the lies by your own, with your former experiences and knowledge; or you will find it later through your future-premises. In my opinion, there's no objective truth, so even if I were to go to that museum and find out they're not my truth, I'd be acknowledging the existence of such lies, propoganda and for all, other truths.

Don't you have your "own"?

Also pic related in addition: Ecce Homo, Nietzsche

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 29 08:38:17 2015 No.6331330 >>6328880 Bigger covacolabry captcha forsp

Anonymous Sun Mar 29 12:51:27 2015 No.6331974

>>6328880
It doesn't make you superior; it makes you aware of the relations of power between man and experience. If you are able to apply that knowledge, to turn yourself into an authoritative discourse, even within the limits of post-modern thought which tries to displace discourse as a tool of oppression, then one has truly felt the virtues of reading.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 29 16:09:04 2015 No.6332661 >>6328967 studies have shown that people who read fiction are more empathetic than people who do not. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/novel-finding-reading-literary-fiction-improves-empathy/

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/lit/ - Literature