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/lit/ - Literature

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6271023 No.6271023 [Reply] [Original]

>Show my father, an accomplished author, a draft of a novel I'm writing
>It's heavily absurdist
>He gives me a 2 hour lecture on why subjects like absurdism and existentialism are poor concepts (Saying absurdism in particular is designed by insecure people to laugh and mock others and is essentially intellectual, cynical self masturbation)
>Tells me to write something positive and universal that "everyone can connect to"

Is he right? He had a similar reaction when I showed him my favorite record (Trout Mask Replica)

>> No.6271028

>>6271023
hes probably right i guess

im gay

>> No.6271036

>>6271023
your father's not the kind of writer we like around here. basically, he's wrong

>> No.6271037

>>6271028
also, he HATES Joyce

with a passion

>> No.6271042

>he still lives with his father

>> No.6271056

>>6271042
He's rich and owns an estate.

>> No.6271059

>>6271037
well i can see why if he doesnt like experimental methods and stream of consciousness and stuff

i think hes wrong on that one though, that kind of thing does have its place, but it's a very different place than the kind of thing he's appealing to, and i would argue muchj hardder to do well

>> No.6271060

>>6271023
Sounds like he's apart of a different era.
Do what you wish, or consider your fathers advice, what feels right to you.

Who's your father (hint?)

>> No.6271067

>>6271023

Step out of your Father's shadow and do your own thing. You really think that he's going to respect you any more if you just blindly follow his creative lead instead of your own instincts?

Grow some balls and disregard him completely the next time he tries to grief you over it. Either that or allow yourself to be kept in line by his will to dominate you. Your call.

>> No.6271068

lol your dad is nicholas sparks

>> No.6271073

>>6271023
If that's the novel you want to write, then write it. Don't let your dad dictate what you do.

>> No.6271084
File: 533 KB, 367x206, 1426173281328.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6271084

>>6271023
So you wrote a genre piece and he's telling you to to try for a wider audience. He's just looking out for you.

You can still try to find that insecure audience with your early phase stuff.

Stupid frog posters

>> No.6271089

>>6271068
no

>>6271060
He's white, won a famous award, 50+ years old and he owns an estate

>> No.6271100

>>6271084
I just feel nervous and ashamed because that's sort of accurate with sections of my work

I'm also sort of meek / sensitive, so if someone close tells me something in a assertive and confident tone I sometimes believe it

I'll also add this: I'm heavily catholic (I know, >absurdism but it's just an interesting concept for me) and he's not. He frequently tells me the New Testament worked because it follows the underdog betrayed narrative that has appeared since the beginning of storytelling.

>> No.6271101

>>6271089
Palahniuk

>> No.6271105

>>6271023
But Jackson, Mr. Pynchon loves absurdism!

>> No.6271116

>>6271101
No. I'd refuse to live with him if he was that guy. Plus I think Chuck is a nihilist

>> No.6271124

>>6271023
I'm not saying your father is necessarily right, plenty of absurdest and existentialist works are widely considered classics, and any story can be engaging or beautiful, regardless of the subject matter, but your book probably does suck because (1) it's a draft, (2) it's probably your first attempt at writing something, (3) just because you have a lofty concept doesn't mean it can't have a shitload of structural problems or bore the reader to death because you lack a literary eye and probably focus on stupid shit. I know that's a generalization, but I've seen the crap that gets posted here on /lit/, and that's what I see here all the time.

>> No.6271129

>>6271124
Well, he wasn't talking about my work specifically. It was a general deconstruction

>> No.6271136

>>6271100

If you are so meek that you are going to let your own Father dictate what should and shouldn't artistically resonate to you then don't make art. Seriously. If you cannot even take the smallest of creative risks in that regard then you should just do something else.

You have stated how much this interests you. So pursue it. Grow some balls, ignore him, and pursue it. It's really that simple.

>> No.6271137

>>6271100
He's *not* Catholic, and you are?
Ugh
Well toughen up with the criticism from loved ones, especially professional loved one. He's just pointed out a weakness in that story. Just take the lesson.

>> No.6271139

Sounds like John Gardner.

You don't always need "positive," but I think he's right when he says you want something universal.

The point is it is so easy to get into absurdism for its own sake, for the sake of cleverness or gimmick or novelty rather than humanity. See all those people imitating Joyce and DFW, both of whom also did have a kind of irritating show-off cleverness as their main flaw whenever they get going.

Basically, is there a deeper, novel, and more human point under the absurdism? Is the absurdism central to what you want to communicate, or can most of it be trashed?

>> No.6271144

I mostly agree with your father. Write something universal, but I don't think it need be positive. Rather than positivity, focus on what's true and beautiful, especially if the truth is harsh.

>> No.6271148

>>6271023
Ok Martin Amis, stopping posting about how your daddy hates your writing.

>> No.6271156

Ignore everything your dad says to make him mad


fuck you dad.jpg

>> No.6271158

>>6271148
lollllll

>> No.6271160

>>6271089
Come on, just tell us

>> No.6271162

>>6271139
Gardner is dead.

>> No.6271166

>>6271162
I know, I meant the advice sounded like Gardner.

>> No.6271177

maybe you should write something that does have value to many people, instead of copying 2deep4u stuff your friends on a maltese marionette social club told you to like

>> No.6271191

>>6271148
I think this is it.

>> No.6271199

>>6271148
>His wife Isabel Fonseca released her debut novel Attachment in 2009 and two of Amis's children, his son Louis and his daughter Fernanda, have also been published in their own right in Standpoint magazine and The Guardian, respectively.

maybe ops feeling the pressure because two of his siblings and his step mom are already writers

>> No.6271200

>something positive and universal that "everyone can connect to"

Lowest common denominator thrash.

>> No.6271215

>>6271137
He's a closet scientologist and critic of other religions. I can't drop his name now.

>> No.6271220

No one has a wrote a book on existential anger, true existential anger and irritation

>> No.6271222

>>6271215
>He's a closet scientologist
Jesus, just ignore him.

>> No.6271226

>>6271023
The fact that you tried to earn his respect and weren't a mocking, cynical asshole proves his point. It's much better to write the same novel where the character knows he is fraudulent

>> No.6271227

>>6271215
>He's a closet scientologist
opinion_disregarded.png

>> No.6271230

>>6271222
despite being a bit reclusive, he was friends with Freemasons in his past and never shows his wrist / arm so I think he might have done something once

>> No.6271239
File: 136 KB, 700x749, hahah.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6271239

>>6271215
>closet scientologist

>> No.6271243

>>6271227
>>6271222
He constantly (ie inside of our house) goes on about how Hubbard was a misunderstood genius, specifically in regard to his psychology

>> No.6271245

>>6271215
Look just accept you have "daddy issues" and work hard to rebel against him to prove him wrong while simultaneously trying to gain his approval. It's a formula that has generated many a successful writer.

>> No.6271255

>>6271215
>closet Scientology

Thats when you look him in the eye and say "aaand dropped."

>> No.6271256

>>6271023
I know this sounds run of the mill plebby be yourself advice but
Its your art do what you feel is true to yourself
Your dad sounds like a pleb

>> No.6271259

>>6271243
And my parents are crazy religious protestants. Just go in your room and read the stuff you like and write what you think is good. I know it can be hard, but many authors have to be their own critics. It has been that way forever. Not many are privy to mentors they can look up to to properly give them constructive criticism.

>> No.6271362

Maybe there's some merit to his arguments. I personally enjoy absurdism a lot.

Can you show me the draft?

Dropbox link it or something??

I can give my email?

>> No.6271413

>self-masturbation
Redundant

>> No.6271591

>>6271037
But Joyce is universal and everyone can connect to his work. I'm afraid you father is just a pleb who is mad he didn't get joyce. Not that it matter if he is rich and a published author. He's living the life I guess.

>> No.6271595

>>6271243
hubbards psychology is fucking absurd, read it yourself

>> No.6271596

Yes. Absurdism and existentialism in general (yes, the former is a predicate of the latter) are for plebs. You've been conned by the Frenchmen that killed philosophy.

>> No.6271600

>>6271037
pleb dad OP

>> No.6271611

>>6271600

>hates joyce
>loves hubbard

op your dad is seriously is a pleb now is the time to come to terms with this painful fact and start to distance yourself from his normie pleb ways.

>> No.6271620

>>6271596
>implying Germans didn't say the best about it

>> No.6271693

>>6271023
>Is he right
not universally

a disconnect from the commonly accepted reality can be because you won't get acceptance or because you don't want it. if you think you're better than everyone else on some level you can make a case.

>> No.6271736

There's two separate things here. 1. Absurdism is made by insecure people to mock others and is intellectual masturbation 2. You should write something positive and universal.

I think the first point is totally wrong. Writing is the act of an insecure person and it is nearly always intellectual masturbation. Anything good that is. To make something universal and personal is to be able to pick apart your own insecurities and turn them into drama.

I don't think absurdism is negative. I think it is often very fun and funny. It is often silly. It's not something fans of it usually take that seriously. Is it cynical? I'm not sure. Kafka probably is but Gogol wrote an entire story about a fucking sentient nose. But is it really saying - life is ridiculous and miserable and pointless. Or is it saying, life is ridiculous so don't let it get you down? It's kind of beautiful in its strangeness and others are allowing you to see how strange it is. I also think there is plenty moving and touching and universal in abursurdist and existential fiction.

So for point 2. Yes, it should probably be "universal" but that's something only slightly autistic people think is possible from a novel. If "universal" means the kinds of people that would read literary fiction then yes, try to be universal.

As for positive. Fuck that. People will take what they want from something. You can't trick them into being positive.

>> No.6271737

is your dad pincone?

>> No.6271738

>>6271056
>is a trust fund babby

>> No.6271756

>>6271023
>Tells me to write something positive and universal that "everyone can connect to"
your daddy is officially pleb tier

>> No.6271758

>>6271738
Yep

>> No.6271760

>>6271737
Not saying who he is.

>> No.6271772

>>6271756
He says art is communication rather than expression. Once he told me Dada was the worst art movement of all time when I brought it up

>> No.6271777

>>6271591
>most cryptic writer
>everyone can connect to him

Of coursh

>> No.6271790

>>6271162
>implying that's relevant

Haven't you ever seen Hitchcock's Psycho?

>> No.6271824

>>6271023
martin amis' son is on /lit/
i guess that's interesting

>> No.6271873

>>6271777
Did you even read Dubliners, Portrait or Ulysses? I'll give you Finnegans but these other three are pretty much universal.

>> No.6272093

Your father is right about captain beefhart and absurdism but he's wrong about Joyce.

>> No.6272114

>>6271023
be all meta and shit and write about you and your dad

>> No.6272134 [DELETED] 

>>6271023
Is your dad Paulo Coelho?

>> No.6272143 [DELETED] 

>>6272093
You are tasteless faggot.

>> No.6272153

>>6271413
underr8ed

>> No.6272156

>>6271620
who?
>>6271736
god damn why doesn't anyone ever get existentialism and absurdism? are people generally handicapped IN THE BRAIN?

>> No.6272157

>>6271023
>and is essentially intellectual, cynical self masturbation

Spot on, isn't it?

>> No.6272181

OP, your dad needs to keep up with le times.

>> No.6272222

>>6271089
stephen king

>> No.6272272

>>6272222
>implying stephen king knows what absurdism and existentialism are

>> No.6272317
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6272317

I had a passion for working on a small game and I loved working on the music for it. My favorite part of the game was working on the music for scenes, and in turn I had to write the scenes so I got better at writing, and then I had to do art to better set the mood for the scene and compliment the music so I got better at art.

A few months ago I got to personally meet Christophe Beck, the composer for the movie Frozen. He's a friend of my Dad.
When I told him I was working heavily on a game and aspiring to perfect my music he asked me if I ever wanted to make money with my music. I said yes to just continue to conversation along and he told me that I should never work on games, that I should throw that out and never get involved with that industry if I ever wanted to make money. He said I should focus only in areas which appeal to the widest possible audience because even if it's crap it'll be crap that the majority of Earth's population interested in that area of entertainment will see.
He told me well known crap is better than obscure gems.

If your work is that of passion then you should ignore your father's advice. He's looking at it from a publishing and money-making point of view, possibly because he wants you to feel successful at what you do and that's how he feels successful.

If you're indeed doing it primarily for money and not art then I'd say follow his advice.

>> No.6272328

>>6272317
>old guy in hollywood bubble doesn't realize games make more money than movies these days

don't listen to that fucking retard from a dying industry

>> No.6272336

>>6271100
OP is your dad John Irving

>> No.6272338

>>6272328
Developers makes shit money and it's a pending failure for long-term investment because it's the most incompetent branch of the entertainment industry.
The entertainment industry isn't known for its high efficiency or competency in any situation as it is.

>> No.6272802

>>6271758
Hahahahhahaha

I knew 4chan was full of faggots, but I didn't think it was this bad.

>> No.6272841

>>6271023

who does he think he is to reject don van vliet? tell that plebeian sack of shit to gtfo

>> No.6274271
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6274271

>>6271084
>Literary fiction reaches a wider audience than genre fiction

>> No.6274316

>>6272802
Not the guy you're responding to, but why does that bother you? Are you envious? I'm not a trust fund baby, but I'd be happy to have been born into that kind of affluence. OP is lucky.

>> No.6274322

>>6274316
Not the guy you were responding to, but I think that's the point. Luck isn't earned, and many people feel that money should represent actual productive/creative input instead of dumb luck. Not exactly the way the world works, but you can't blame them for being a little bit resentful.

>> No.6274395

>>6271023

r u Martin Amis m8?

>> No.6274455

>>6274395
I already said in this thread Im not going to say who he is

>> No.6274466

>>6271873
>Ulysses
No.

>> No.6274533

>hating on Joyce, Beefheart, Dadaism and absurdism
>closet scientologist
Martin Amis can suck a cock

>> No.6274583

>>6271148
Kingsley was fuck-awesome though tbf

>> No.6274588

>>6272802
bitter proletarian detected

>> No.6274592

>>6274316
>>6274322
Trust fund babbies input no value into society. They are basically NEETs

>> No.6274619

>>6274592
>implying you're putting value into society by sitting there and fuming on a mongolian pictograph board

>> No.6274642

>>6271116
He's also a real-deal homosexual.

>> No.6274644

>>6274619
Not fuming at all, I had a nice Sunday

>> No.6274659
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6274659

There is a good thought about criticism from Charles Bukowski in Factotum but I can't remember it. But basically it is about a writer being the only critic that should matter, never anyone else's because the minute that happens, you aren't writing in your own voice anymore. At the same time just keep in mind what your dad is doing.
Your dad is trying to protect you. Most new writers wont have any attention paid to them when they submit their first pieces but since your father has already established connections and made a reputation, your first writings will be read and the criticism that goes along with them will be magnified x10 good or bad. If you want real criticism us a pen-name or someone besides family. Absurdism isn't shit but it definitely can be and you can definitely connect with people through it.

>> No.6274761
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6274761

YOU ARE BATMAN SON FUCK YOU DAMINEN.

>> No.6274762

>>6271089
ROTH

>> No.6274767

b u

>> No.6274769

>>6271023
>absurdism and existentialism are poor concepts

He's wrong.

>absurdism in particular is designed by insecure people to laugh and mock others and is essentially intellectual, cynical self masturbation

He's right. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Also, Trout Mask Replica is awful.

>> No.6274859

>>6274769
>Trout mask replica is awful

great argument fagtron you sure convinced me with those hot opinions

>> No.6274862

He's right. Why do you think absurdism and associated ideas are so popular nowadays?

>> No.6274942
File: 69 KB, 915x711, 1423629301037.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6274942

>>6271042
>He points out other people's flaws while posting on the shittiest website on the internet

>> No.6274953

>>6274942
This could be a hub of intellectual progress if people like you didn't keep calling it the shittiest website of all time.

For a literature board so obsessed with philosophy and Freud I thought you would understand how perceptions work.

>> No.6274956

>>6274953
perceive these nuts, faggot

>> No.6274966

>>6274953
Freud is reddit incarnate

>> No.6274979

>>6274953
Shit posting about the same four authors that you haven't read while calling anyone and everyone who doesn't enjoy the same things you enjoy "plebians" and "faggots" all day does not make for intellectual discussion.

>> No.6274996

>>6274966
Freud was an influential genius, who correctly perceived the sociological trend of humanity in addition to the general state of the psychical energies of mankind.

Nothing to do with Reddit.

>> No.6275058

>>6274996
Exactly what a redditor would say. He's an inauthentic meme

>> No.6275068

>>6274996
>>6274953
This has to be bait. 5/10 for making me reply.

>> No.6275100

>>6274966
Have you even read Interpretation of Dreams? Or just read about it like every fag who says shit about freud on the internet?

>> No.6275121

>>6271023
>Is he right?
Yes

>> No.6275261

>>6275068
Hate?! There's hate on the internet?! I'll hate even more to get back at them!!! Hah! I bet when he sees this he will be mad! Somehow I've contributed well to the community right?

>> No.6275298
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6275298

>>6271023
>trying to bond with your parents

>> No.6275670

>>6274592
Most neets drain resources through autismbux.
trust fund babies only drain their parents money

>> No.6275682

>>6275298
like this if u h8 ur parents 2 :(((

>> No.6276227

>>6275298
;^)

>> No.6277403

>>6274466
>Ulysses
Yes

>> No.6278323

lol

>> No.6278577

Trout Mask Replica is a fucking fantastic album, otherwise OP is a faggot

>> No.6278658

>>6272802

He might be a faggot, but being mad at someone just because he was born that way is pretty shitty.

>> No.6278673

>>6271023
>implying people can't connect to cynical self masturbation

"The sound of loneliness, makes me happier....."

>> No.6278694
File: 632 KB, 1464x1986, Nietzsche187a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6278694

>When one has not had a good father, one must create one

>> No.6278705 [DELETED] 

>>6271023
i couldnt disagree with your dad more but it's cool he cares about such things. absurdism is a coping mechanism

>> No.6278724 [DELETED] 

>>6271023
>your dad will never be a patrician writer

mine only got a philosophy degree when he was 40 from the worst university in the country the filthy fucking pleb

>> No.6278741

>>6278694
>Daddy, can you read me the rest of your Zarathustra story tonight? :3

>> No.6278747

>>6278724

The apple didn't fall far from the tree.

>> No.6278752

OP is not Martin Amis' son, Martin Amis was likes Joyce. Does somebody have a better guess?

>> No.6278769

>>6271023
>>6271089
Is your dad Jonathan Franzen? He sounds like Franzen

>> No.6278771

>>6278752
OP said "famous award" but that could apply to many different awards, some merely country specific etc. Don't think he said his dad is top tier fame novelist.

>> No.6278772

>>6274322

>valuing money.

Do you even read?

>> No.6278779

>>6274271

This.

>>6271084

I hate you so fucking much.
>calls out frog posters
>uses a trip code butterfly shit.

You're the pot calling the kettles black.

>> No.6278786

>>6272272

C'mon. He can't just NOT know. Someone would have told hi by now if he hadn't read it for himself. Just because he doesn't include it or a discussion of it in his major works doesn't mean he doesn't understand or even that he doesn't like the notions. Magic Treehouse books didn't include nihilism either. The audience is different.

>>6274762
>>6278769

He didn't reply, could be.

>> No.6278794

>>6271023
>>6271037
sorry dude, but your dad sounds dumb and old.

>> No.6278796

>>6278786
Roth is way too smart to say something like that

>> No.6278797

>>6271100
>>6271215

Into Kierkegaard nigger.
Catholicism is best religion, rub you roser in the hack's face. Also, work out more. Working out will increase your subconscious understanding of the utility and agency of your body. You won't back down as much, won't flinch as much. Try some yelling on your own, motivationally for a sport or something, just to see how it feels. Desensitize yourself to the strong word.

>>6271245
this

>> No.6278800

>>6271243
lol, his opinion officially doesnt fucking matter

>> No.6278808

>>6272317
>He told me well known crap is better than obscure gems.

yowza

>> No.6278818

I dont understand, whats wrong with intellectual, cynical self masturbation? I'd rather read, watch, listen to an artist pleasing himself through his art than an artist doing something he hates. how can anyone argue otherwise?

>> No.6278837

>>6278818
Who ever said that the artist has to be happy for the work to be good or even genius?

Hemingway killed himself, Authors retract entire novels once they edit them a bit.

>> No.6278845

Well, what you showed him was probably complete shit (though this should not be particularly upsetting), but he sounds like a moron if he thinks TMR is "intellectual, cynical masturbation." It is like the opposite that; it's just goofy and crazy. It is the opposite of pretension.

>> No.6278918

>>6272317
Frozen's music is trash, so this doesn't surprise me.

>> No.6278937

>>6278771
Thats SIR Kingsley Amis to you

>> No.6278978

>>6271023
I also had a worthless father. Besides his $, his input is beyond useless. Tell your dad how much you hated being molested while he was off making money so your mom could look like a clown in Gucci.

>> No.6279497

>>6275670
>trust fund babies only drain their parents money
Just like NEETs

>> No.6279794

>>6271023
Just quote some dosto at him and tell him to simmer down

>Let me tell you, novice, that the absurd is only too necessary on earth. The world stands on absurdities, and perhaps nothing have come to pass without them.

>> No.6280071

>>6275298
>>6276227
>>6275682
I dont want to let go, but I have to...

>> No.6280090

>>6272317
this is bullshit my brother is a composer and got his start working in games, he has now ditched the 9 to 5 to work on whatever he wants but it was a big help to have consistent work starting out

>> No.6280834

>>6274762
Roth loves Joyce

>> No.6280860

>>6271023
>>6271037
I like your dad.