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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

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6229682 No.6229682 [Reply] [Original]

Is prioritizing aesthetic beauty shallow? What virtuous value does it offer? Is it in conflict with asceticism?

Moral relativists pls keep your discussion in >>6227580

>> No.6229711

>>6229682
>Is prioritizing aesthetic beauty shallow?
>aesthetic beauty

WHAT OTHER KIND OF BEAUTY IS THERE?

BEAUTY IS INHERENTLY AESTHETIC; IT IS AN ASPECT OF AESTHETICS.

I DO NOT THINK THAT YOU KNOW WHAT "AESTHETIC" MEANS.

>What virtuous value does it offer?

DEFINE "VIRTUOUS VALUE".

>Is it in conflict with asceticism?

NO.

>> No.6229714
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6229714

>>6229682
>What virtuous value does it offer?

It reminds us of the Divine.

>Is it in conflict with asceticism?

No but it can become a distraction.

>> No.6229887

>>6229711
>WHAT OTHER KIND OF BEAUTY IS THERE?
I just felt the need to differentiate it from whatever you'd call attraction derived from cosmetics. Maybe I can't totally justify it as being lesser, but I'm just fundamentally disgusted by the concept of makeup. I know I'm being vague as fuck with my terms; I was hoping that you guys would use your own conception of what it is and why or why not it agrees with my questions.

>DEFINE "VIRTUOUS VALUE".
Cardinal virtues? That's the best I got. Yeah, Plato spoke highly about beauty, and coined the virtues, but I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Platonic aesthetics.

>NO.
Can you elaborate?

>>6229714
Interesting, but can you be more specific on both of your points?

>> No.6229918

>>6229887
>can you be more specific on both of your points

Aesthetic beauty reminds us that God is good and is the source of all beautiful things.

Those who walk the ascetic path can appreciate beauty but must be wary that it doesn't seduce them away from their austere project.

>> No.6230074

beauty is hedonism

>> No.6230258

bump for interest

>> No.6230266

>>6229682
"beauty is the splendor of truth."

>> No.6230275

>>6229711
autists can't into higher order abstract principles

>> No.6230297

>>6230266
So a woman cannot be beautiful? Otherwise, can you explain how a woman can be "the truth"? Or am I missing the point entirely, can you explain what that means more?

>> No.6230307

>>6229682
Aestheticism is the *only* goal.

>> No.6230309

Aestheticism is a virtue all its own. There's no further meaning required.

>> No.6230322

>>6230297
a woman's beauty is evident because of the truth that engendered it, not because a woman is the truth in her own right.

>> No.6230387

>>6230275

1. THAT IS NOT TRUE.

2. YOUR REPLY IS NONSEQUITEURIAL.

>> No.6230469

Beauty is a transcendental, like being, the true and the good, and ultimately inseparable from them. This is because beauty is perfection as predicated of form, and form is the principle by which things have their intrinsic intelligibility. So the love of beauty is the love of a thing utterly for its own sake- to appreciate it as itself and for itself, precisely in its intelligibility. This love is a virtue, because the virtues are those traits of character which perfect us as what we are, and whatever else we are, we are intellectual creatures capable of grasping the intelligible.

>> No.6230485

>>6230387
yes it is.

>> No.6230488

>>6230387
>proving the point

WHAT WILL YOU DO NOW? REPLY AGAIN?

>> No.6231531

good thread

>> No.6231720
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6231720

I can understand how you may think that, we often encounter a notion of beauty and aesthetics linked with appearences and not the "virtuous values" underneath the thing. We read more about it on magazine covers, than in books.

That is not to say beauty is an intrisic value in itself, but that it blurs the relationship between the form and its content, appearances of a thing and its interior. Those dualities cease to make sense. Like the Christian posts says, it can link you to the divine, and is also synonymous with truth, not that it speaks the truth about something else, but that the relationship between you and the thing that is beautiful to you is the thing that you can be sure to be true. It is evidence of your subjectivity, your link to the external world, the best object for understanding your values, your action and speech. Aesthetic means sensation, contrary to anaesthetics, and so it is an appeal to the senses, but not only to our physical senses, but to our rational, spiritual, even ideological eyes.

Aesthetics in art comes with different problems. You want to send a message, to communicate and how are you to do it? Through beauty? Beauty has this dual effect as it is the best way to share a certain view of the world, but it is also hypnotizing and thus it can also distract you from the thing into other realms. Religion is the best example of this struggle, I think. There are various resistances but also attempts to engage with beauty. The iconoclasts know that to live for the image of a thing is not to live for the thing. The first buddhist images were the footprints of Buddha, that is, just a sign that he was there. Arabic geometry is beautiful without being figurative so as to make you understand that beauty is not found in the mimesis of the world, but in these abstract structures that precede it.

Asceticism may deny beauty or images all together due to an understanding of its hypnotic powers, but it can also be used as a tool to get where the ascetic wants. Afterall, it's a reduction, not an exclusion. It's not that the ascetic doesn't eat, he eats the largest portion that he can to feel the food (that is: almost nothing). It's not that he doesn't engage with people, but that he realizes dealing with himself is enough of a struggle. In the same way, there can be a reduction of images in search for an appropriate way to deal with them.

Read On Beauty by Umberto Eco. It gives examples of several perspectives on it throughout the ages.

>> No.6231732

>>6229714
That's why a church should be stark and austere. You're there to worship God, not some painted windows.

>> No.6231799

>>6229714
>>6229918
Aestheticism, and therefore aesthetic beauty, was created in response to a lack of the divine. Aestheticism is an appreciation for art and nature in its own terms, rather than a reference to God. It's a rejection of God.

>> No.6231806

>>6229887
>I'm just fundamentally disgusted by the concept of makeup

Are you also fundamentally disgusted by the concept of taking a shower, wearing beautiful clothing and having a nice haircut? Whats the difference?

>> No.6231812

>>6229714
>>6231799
>reproducing a byzantine debate

Just in case you are not aware of it. Read on it.

The icons have won, the reproduction of images were accepted as the ideal form to spread the word.Whether the result of that was good is another thing

>> No.6233128

>>6231806
Showering is necessary hygiene, required for physical health, not sure why you'd group it with the others. Clothing is the in the same category as cosmetics. Haircuts... I'm not sure. That's where I'm confused on the subject of beauty. Makeup is trying to deceive the viewer into thinking the face is naturally beautiful (you can say it's "complementing features" but that can be stretched so far as to render it meaningless). Hair isn't necessarily trying to make the body appear beautiful by making up for aesthetic imperfections, so I think it's in the category of beauty I'm asking about.

>> No.6233207

>>6231732

Following the logic of the narrative, that god created the glass, the colors, the sun that radiates through them, the mind that created them and the mind that perceives them.

Only someone shallow and trivial would paint all that over to worship their own emptiness.

>> No.6233385

>>6231720
>and so it is an appeal to the senses, but not only to our physical senses, but to our rational, spiritual, even ideological eyes.
Beautiful. Thanks, this post is what I was looking for.
I'll check out the book.

>> No.6233401

>>6233128
Showering is NOT necessary for hygiene and nor is it required for physical health. Marketers gave terms like "body odor" bad connotations so that people would buy so-called hygiene products. You know what else? Shampoo and conditioner don't make your hair shinier or healthier. They ruin it. I take cold showers to wake up in the morning, but I don't use soap or shampoo. Haven't for years.

>> No.6233454

>>6233401
i bet you smell like balls

>> No.6234762

>>6231720
This is actually a pretty interesting way of thinking about it.

An aesthetic lifestyle doesn't necessarily imply an indulgence of the senses. The appreciation of beauty stems from even the most minute event, one which is profoundly relevant to your subjective consciousness; yet it also appears to be so ingeniously, artistically crafted, so well-executed in regards to its form that it couldn't have occurred anywhere else other than the realm of art.

>> No.6234768

>>6233401
>tfw couldn't ever achieve such an effay lifestyle

>> No.6234823

>>6233401
>>>6233454 # >>6234768 #

How's the dandruff treating you?

>> No.6235120

>>6230469
plato pls

>> No.6235123

>>6229682

read the birth of tragedy. i think prioritizing the ascetic is kind of innocent.

>> No.6235125

>there are people on /lit/ RIGHT NOW who unironically shampoo and condition their hair more than once a month

enjoy your flaxseed locks, comrades

>> No.6235144

why are white americans so obsessed with showering daily, shaving and other useless crap? is the marketing there that good?

>> No.6235161

>>6235144

black people are so much more obsessed with cleanliness than white people. I've seen white people mocked for showering every other day on social media.

>> No.6235164

>>6235144

YES AND SOMETIMES I SHOWER AND SHAVE THE HAIR FROM MY BUTTHOLE AND JUNXTAJUNCTIONED AREA (MY PENIS, MY LOWER MIDRIFF, MY PART WHERE NEITHER HAND MIGHT GO NOR SHIT MIGHT FLOW) AND THEN PUT ON A SPAGHETTI STRAP AMERICAN EAGLE GOWN THAT GOES DOWN TO MY UMBILICAL DOT AND THEN THERE IS A BEIGE DESERT OF SKIN AND THEN THERE IS A TRIANGLE OF PINK AND LACE AND I TOUCH MYSELF WITH A FINGER UP MY HOLE (SOMETIMES MORE) AND A HAND DOWN THE FRONT OF MY THONG AND I STOKE MYSELF UNTIL PINK LACE IS SOAKED DISGRACE AND I TAKE PICTURE AND MASTURBATE TO MY PICTURES OF MY SELF

THE MARKETING IS GOOD

>> No.6235166
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6235166

>>6235161
>black people are so much more obsessed with cleanliness than white people

>white people mocked for showering every other day on social media.

>> No.6235179

>>6235161
well it's understandable with black people because they're stereotyped as dirty and unclean. black people have an obsession with washrags and thinking how unclean it is to use somebody else's soap as if you can't simply wash off the top layer.