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/lit/ - Literature

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6189829 No.6189829 [Reply] [Original]

What David Graeber, the anarchist, is suggesting is that all personal debt, debt for normal people, is canceled.
Think about it.
That means you. All your debt canceled.
When David said it I felt excited, like it was naughty, like it shouldn’t be allowed.

So we are not discussing whether or not debt cancellation is a possibility; we know it is, we’ve seen it, they’ve done it. All we are discussing is who it is possible for. Them or us.
I’ve just typed myself into a revolutionary fervor again. Every so often the fury at injustice rises up in me and makes me want to smash something or burn something, but nothing in my immediate environment belongs to me so I have to refrain.
Unless of course we consider that the concept of property is preposterous, like a Native American chief, Great Elk or one of them, who when us lot (By “us” I suppose I mean white Europeans. You might not be one; I hope you’re not, actually. Sorry for unconsciously addressing this book to imperialists) turned up in their country with contracts, were confounded.
“How can you ‘own’ a river? The river is our brother.”
“Yeah, alright, mate. Sign this, will ya? Here’re some blankets for yer trouble.”

>> No.6189857

>like it was naughty, like it shouldn’t be allowed

Thats because its theft and dishonorable. Its immoral and even when you try to rationalize it some part of you will always know its immoral.

>> No.6189861
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6189861

>>6189829
>like a Native American chief, Great Elk or one of them, who when us lot (By “us” I suppose I mean white Europeans. You might not be one; I hope you’re not, actually. Sorry for unconsciously addressing this book to imperialists) turned up in their country with contracts, were confounded.

shitty paternalism and bad history

>> No.6189862 [DELETED] 

>>6189829

>glorifying native american savages

See they had no sense of ownership so we had every right to come claim this land. It never belonged to them. The just lived on it.

>> No.6189865

>>6189829
I don't have that much debt, and I personally don't feel like contributing to the tanking of an economy. Or theft, for that matter.

>> No.6189869

>(By “us” I suppose I mean white Europeans. You might not be one; I hope you’re not, actually. Sorry for unconsciously addressing this book to imperialists

>> No.6189875

>>6189857
Yeah fuck the third world, they deserve it the cunts

>> No.6189887

>>6189875

They do deserve to be poor though. I certainly dont see how they deserve wealth that was created across an ocean that they had nothing to do with.

>> No.6189910

Why are Americans still bothered by the Natives' land rights? They were a conquered people, could you imagine historically if every time a people were conquered there oppressors had to give them designated land and no taxation? Western civilization would be a mess.

>> No.6189924

When will the plebs realize money is just a symbolic representation of power and having a lot of money doesn't make me better than you? just more powerful. Likewise having little money just means you're weaker than me. Deserve has nothing to do with it. Everyone who ever got rich took what they wanted at some point or another.

>> No.6189947

>>6189857
To be honest many religions have rules against debt and interest, and i think they were really on to something.

Like, in America you can't get rid of student debt even if you file for bankruptcy.
You sign this contract at 18, and you cant get out of it period.

And the education is not even worth what you paid.

>theft and dishonorable
Rofl.

I'm honestly a capitalist, but even I think this shit is fucked up beyond belief.
We can't just forgive all debt without a plan, certainly. And it makes a weird precedent, especially when not during wartime or some great occurrence where most exceptions occur.

But that does not mean the debt, and they way we get people into debt, isn't fucked up.

>> No.6189957

>>6189829
>By “us” I suppose I mean white Europeans. You might not be one; I hope you’re not, actually. Sorry for unconsciously addressing this book to imperialists
Fuck him, and anyone who buys his shit book.

>> No.6189960

Is that an excerpt from the book in your picture?

Man, if Katy Perry is attracted to pseudo intellectuals then boy have I got a dick for her.

>> No.6189987

>>6189947

>rofl

When you borrow something from someone and you give your word to pay them back plus interest, then you go back on your word without making every effort to pay your debt, you're a piece of shit. Even if the terms are unfair you agreed to them.

>> No.6189988

>>6189857
You should read Graeber's book. It's basically about how people got to think the way you think; i.e. how the concept of debt and sin became equated to the point where it's considered a universal law above any international law.

(Relevant link: http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/merchants-of-europe/))

>> No.6189995

>>6189988

Its not a big conspiracy, its about doing what you say you are going to do. One of the most basic things that makes someone a good person.

>> No.6190000

>>6189857
>HURR not paying off your usurer makes you a criminal

>> No.6190010

>>6189987
Can you read?
I said you cant just forgive debt, but that maybe we should not allow people to make unfair deals that keep people perpetually in debt.

And no, you are probably not a piece of shit for not paying your shit back if you cant. That's why bankruptcy exists.
If you think the banks giving these loans would not file bankruptcy if they needed to, even to save a single fucking penny more, then L OH FUCKING L

stop projecting some moral code on money. You sound like someone defending a casino if someone says one of the games is rigged.

>> No.6190011

>>6189995
Go fuck yourself, investment banking is one of the most despicable forms of e.oloyment.

>> No.6190012

>>6189995
Right. The book is basically about how this is great both in principle and in practice when communities are small and your debt is to your neighbors, but it causes huge problems when you scale it up, so your interactions with disinterested (and profit-driven) strangers are governed by supposedly universal moral laws.

It's a good book. It's about sociology, not conspiracy.

>> No.6190023

>>6190000

Well im glad socialists are finally admitting they are all about stealing.

>> No.6190038

>>6190023
Socialists have always admitted that they want to seize control of the means of production.
Usury is thievery to a greater degree than not paying off debt that you're incapable of paying off a particularly unfair loan.

>> No.6190039

>>6190010

youre the one who isnt reading, I said "without making every effort to pay your debts".

Anyways, the only reason you cant bankrupt out of your student loans is because lawyers used to all get loans and then declare bankruptcy the day they graduated college. Its probably a poor way to deal with the issue but something had to be done. Otherwise they would have just increased the risk on the loans and everyone else would be stuck with higher interest rates.

>> No.6190176

>>6190023
Socialists don't even acknowledge the right to private property, so for them it is a agreement made on unfair terms. To put it in liberal terms, it would be like double-crossing someone whom you agreed to pay a ransom to.

>> No.6191053

Gandhi, an extremely efficient revolutionary, is perhaps most admired for his excellent deployment of “nonviolent protest.” The ingenuity of nonviolence is not immediately obvious to us, the inheritors of a world built upon martial means, but the principle is almost like mathematics. Authorities are trained to deal with a particular kind of conflict, violent conflict, so by using violent means you are entering the territory that they are best qualified to control. Also, by becoming violent you are tuning in to the frequency that you are trying to overcome, the frequency of violation, violence FM.

“Be the change you wish to see in the world,” said Gandhi. If you want a nonviolent world, you cannot use violence to achieve it.

Human beings, who want the best for their families. David Cameron said, in a rare foray into compassion, “Hug a hoodie.” He was right—we should. We should also cuddle a copper. Was that a bit “Yeah, man,” a bit reductive? It will be: The solution will not be rarefied, the Revolution will be televised, and it will be easy and based on simple things, like interconnectivity and union. Or love.

In fact, I must mention that I was interviewed by the police during the writing of this book, and the WPC who questioned me was so resolutely lovely, judicious, and kind, I nearly gave up on the whole revolutionary caper. There were cups of tea and codes of conduct and tales of public marches in her former life. In fact, though, this just confirms my thesis that people are beautiful and Revolution inevitable. We don’t need to grow compassion in a petri dish; everyone’s fine—we just have to scrape away a few repellent systems.

>> No.6191086

>>6189829
Fucking Christ it will never cease to amaze me, this mental picture people have of the Indians. Those fuckers were murdering each other over those rivers generations before the white man came and afterwards tried to use them as WMDs, setting the settlers loose on rival tribes to get rid of them.

>> No.6191226

>>6189829
please tell me that you typed this and it isn't really in the book.

Fucking hell.

>> No.6191244

>>6191226
It's in the book, I swear on moot's dick. If you don't believe me, download the book from libgen

>> No.6191276

>>6189887
kill yourself

>> No.6191300

>>6189887
Truth. If people want to help them by committing a portion of their wealth to their aid, they may do so, and and it would be really nice if they did. But it is THEIR wealth; the project of THEIR labour and ingenuity, which evidently isn't something that people have in to whatever degree) in poorer countries

>> No.6191328

>>6189887
>>6191300
Fuck, have you ever even tried to understand world economics?

>> No.6192146

>>6190038
Who holds a gun to your head and demands you agree to the terms of the loan?

What about personal agency?

Fucking Leftists

>> No.6193178
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6193178

>>6192146
To be fair, I'd make it an acorn gathering contest: whoever brings me the most acorns over the next hour gets the flute. Whenever one child brought me some acorns, I'd tell him that the other had actually just dropped off a little more than that a minute ago, so he'd better hurry and gather more acorns. Eventually they'd all start to get concerned that one has more acorns than the other on deposit with me, so about 15 minutes in I'd offer to start issuing them paper acorn certificates, for five acorns, ten acorns, etc, just based on what they'd already given me to hold onto. They'd probably agree to that because it makes it easier to tell who has the most and monitor the competition. At the thirty minute mark, I'd begin to offer paper acorn certificates in exchange for actual goods and services (candy, shoe shine, lemonade, weeding my garden, whatever it is that kids do). By forty five minutes they will have most likely picked the area clean and it will become less profitable to gather acorns than it would be to just do things for me in exchange for paper acorn certificates. At the hour mark I'd ask if they really want to stop the competition right now or keep going, and of course the two losers will outvote the one winner so the game keeps going. If one of them wants to opt out, I'll just remind them why they deserve the flute the most (you're the only one who knows how to play/you don't have any other toys/you made the flute) to stoke the flames of competition. Meanwhile I keep all the acorns and the flute.

Best thing for everyone.

>> No.6193205

>>6189829

I don't have debt because I'm not a retard who can't manage his money.

>spend recklessly like a retard
>I DON'T DESERVE MY DEBT!

end yourself.

>> No.6193211

>>6193205
You realize going to certain schools will plunge you into dept, right?

>> No.6193213

>>6193205
>I don't own a house
>I never went to school

>> No.6193217

>>6193211
yeah, if you're poor.

>> No.6193224

>>6193211
Then don't go to those schools.

>> No.6193242

>>6193217
More like if you're not upper-class. University programs are expensive even at the upper-middle class range.

>>6193224
Regardless of school there will always be expensive programs.
also
>don't go to good school
>don't get a job
>can't pay off debt

>> No.6193247

>>6190176
I want you to spank my bum.

>> No.6193510

I used to agree with some other anon that this guy seems psychopathic but then i read he divorced katy perry and turned down half her money so now im inclined to believe he is actually serious about this crap

>> No.6193515

>>6193510
to be fair the guy has a $15 million dollar net worth, he wasn't strapped for cash

>> No.6193568

people who want 'hope and change' just want the system to work for them

they are fine with the system as it is so long as everything is redistributed to benefit them

instead of, "end debt slavery" they say, "cancel my debt so i can try better next time"

instead of, "end consumerism" they say, "give me more money for jordans"

you can see how broken people are. even when there are riots on the streets all they can think to do is hoard the material goods that they covet. occupy wall street was a bunch of aimless people demanding the right to have a cut of the bankers ill-gotten gains. it all exists within the same framework of mcdonalds and democratic capitalism

>> No.6193574

>>6193568
>"cancel my debt so i can try better next time"
There was no first time. We were born into it.

>> No.6193599

>>6190010
>maybe we should not allow people to make unfair deals
But they keep agreeing to the conditions! They want this kind of lifestyle!

>> No.6193799
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6193799

Asking to cancel all personal debt is like asking your master to spare you the whip. That isn't freedom. That's something you are *given* and can be taken away any time.

The answer is to reject the debt-holders right to repayment. But of course, the modern would never do something so "extreme", because they're pussies who beg the government to do everyhting for them, even give them their own freedom! Be like Stirner, just ignore your creditors. That takes real balls.

>> No.6193808

>>6189829
did you guys notice that there's the word love backwards in revolution?

>> No.6193837

There are some real callous cunts in this world, and on this board. "Life's not fair!"

I wonder how many times I'll have to hear that. I swear, if I had one wish, it'd be that every high and mighty fucker, the kind that looks down on others and says, "well they deserve it!", I wish that they'd be cast down into the depths of poverty.

I fucking guarantee you that their "principles" would go right out the fucking window when it was their lives on the line. And all of these "well if they didn't want debt they shouldn't have signed the contract!" so-called easy decisions wouldn't be so fucking easy when you actually have to deal with the shit and when you're actually having to deal with life and make tough calls.

It's so easy to sit on your thrones and look down at others and scoff. That's what this entire fucking site is. and yeah I mad and no there probably isn't an easy solution if a solution even exists but come the fuck on. Empathy, anyone?

>> No.6193842

>>6193808
>>6191053

>> No.6193864

>>6191300
>every formerly dominant region descended into poverty because people suddenly started being lazy
>at this point in history all the hardworking people are in the West and all the lazy people are in the third world

>> No.6193884

>>6192146
>personal agency?
>Implying the IMF is 'personal' in any way
>Implying international trade policies don't unfairly favor 1st-world nations

>> No.6194933

>>6189857
Usury is immoral according to Jesus