[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 17 KB, 425x633, socrates.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
618499 No.618499 [Reply] [Original]

How do you interpret the death of Socrates?

Crazy man gets his due?
A vengeful populace punishes the teacher for the deeds of his students?
Old man is tired of living and antagonizes prominent citizens till they put him to death?

>> No.618507

He died because OP touches himself at night.

The second one is obvious, durr.

>> No.618510

2 is the closest but doesn't tell the whole story..he basically died to make a point.

>> No.618522

Old man gets bold and pushes government farther than ever before

resigned to his fate, martyrs himself instead of fleeing to a menial existance where he will be forgotten.

/thread

>> No.618529

Socrates offered himself up as scapegoat.
Hatred was festering in the hearts of the Athenians after the Peloponnesian War. The oligarchs had sided with the Spartans, and the perceived betrayal was fresh in the minds of the masses. Socrates' sacrifice purged this evil. He gave them someone to punish,and they were more than willing to do so. Alcabiades had been his student after all. His brave deed assuaged all immediate ill-will, and his wise words to the jury, later remembered by cooler heads, made them feel so guilty that further evil was unthinkable.

And as a nice side-bonus democracy was forever given a black eye. Socrates was no friend of democracy as you will remember.

>> No.618536

It's like a tour de france cyclist getting mad at a physicist who follows him in a car and shouts "YOU CANNOT PARTICIPATE IN THIS RACE UNTIL YOU HAVE FUCKING LEARNED ALL THE PHYSICAL LAWS THAT ENABLE YOU TO RIDE A BICYCLE!"

>> No.618537

>>618529
no. That is the melodramatic romantic version fostered by historians who would late come after.

nothing honorable, only death.

>> No.618543

>>618537

I disagree.
He saved Athens by willingly sacrificing himself.

>> No.618553
File: 14 KB, 402x389, combo1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
618553

>>618543
>he saved Athens

and that is the fundamental lie. We might create romantic visions of a lone man saving an entire population of thousands, but realistically this never happens. a single person among many.

>> No.618556

Socrates prophesied the death of Jesus by his self-sacrifice. An amazing hint of things to come.

>> No.618559
File: 12 KB, 287x474, combo2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
618559

>>618553
and what is the value of Athens? A single culture among many

>> No.618566
File: 10 KB, 416x244, combo3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
618566

>>618559
and what is the value of man?

a single entity among many.

No, there is nothing honorable or memorable or even particularly important about this single, ancient, man. He died and has been remade into some kind of fantasy individual who probably only bears passing relationship to the real thing. Do not think that text based off of him several hundred years ago and subject to hundreds of historical perceptions will really represent him. Begone.

>> No.618568

>>618559

>and what is the value of Athens?
Athens was to later become the heart of a resurgent Platonism. This Platonism infused Christianity with the eternal truths which the Pagans had discovered before finally exhausting itself. It was a passing of the torch. By this, Christianity was confirmed as the rightful heir of Paganism. None of this would have happened had Socrates not valiantly offered himself up.

>> No.618574

>>618566

>has been remade into some kind of fantasy individual who probably only bears passing relationship to the real thing
This may be true, but please remember that it was the fantasy which influenced people, not the "real" event.

>> No.618579
File: 25 KB, 413x600, doublepalm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
618579

>>618568
>resurgent Platonism
>eternal truths

I lol'd. Nothing is eternal you close-minded hack Platonism is a single insignificant progression among many. Modern society is itself a relatively insignificant progression.

>> No.618586

>>618574
>This may be true, but please remember that it was the fantasy which influenced people

ah, I grow to hate postmodern theory. It's influence was limited, a minor footnote.

>> No.618591

>>618579

>insignificant progression
Can you clarify what you mean by this?
Modernity seems significantly different than what came before to me. Perhaps you mean to say that the important things never change?

>> No.618608

>>618591
>Perhaps you mean to say that the important things never change?
>Implying eternal truths

What I just said.
man is tiny and miniscule in the big picture of anything. Prehaps in a thousand years there will be something to speak of

but for now, it is petty and close-minded to revere a single individual as being responsable for society. No, the act is easy. Athens can easily be replaced. There is no eternal anything, the notion of progression, good, or evil is a construct

threrfore, argument is invalid

>> No.618617

>>618608

>the notion of progression, good, or evil is a construct
How progressive of you.

>> No.618620
File: 14 KB, 350x272, RiddlerTV.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
618620

>>618617
>implying troll

>> No.618680

I drank what?

>> No.618682

Question is, how do you interpret the death of Aeschylus?

>> No.618691

Socrates looks like old & fat Orson Welles with a niggers nose

>> No.618726

>>618682

Nobody even wants to have a go?

>> No.618744

>>618726
you already interpreted it.

>death of Aeschylus

>> No.618748

Aeschyl-who?

>> No.618753

>>618748

Ancient Greek playwright. He died when an eagle dropped a tortoise on his head. No joke.

What do we make of it, /lit/?

>> No.618757

Old man is tired of living and antagonizes prominent citizens till they put him to death.

They gave him chance after chance to walk away during the trial, and even in prison. The guards literally offered to help him escape. It's hard to feel bad for someone who's that adamant about dying.

>> No.618770

>>618753

We have no way of knowing if that's true or not.

But I choose to believe it anyway.

>> No.618772
File: 71 KB, 320x240, local man ruins everything.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
618772

Super troll single handledly ruins the reputation of an entire city. An inspiration for us all.

>> No.618805

Man was pissing the populace off with his obnoxious, pretentious speakings
Some dude got fed up and tried to frame him.
Man is framed and executed.
Good end.

>> No.618821

>>618805

>Man is framed
Implying that he wasn't a bad influence on kids, and that he didn't have strange religious beliefs?

>> No.618836

>>618821
>implying without greentext

>> No.618861

mediocrity overwhelms excellence. oldest story in the book.

>> No.618942

>>618821
>Implying I didn't imply the quite opposite

>> No.618954

>>618942

I'm confused.
Do you think he was guilty of the charges laid against him, or not?

>> No.618961

>>618954
Probably not... I can't exactly precisely how the story goes. Brb, wiki'ing.

>> No.618966

>>618961
can't exactly REMEMBER precisely how the story goes*

>> No.618981 [DELETED] 

>>618966

The two charges against Socrates are

1. corrupting the youth
2. Athens and impiety

He doesn't exactly refute these charges in his apology....

>> No.618980

>>618961

Shit..did you exactly the whole thing?

>> No.618984

>>618966

The two charges against Socrates are

1. corrupting the youth
2. impiety

He doesn't exactly refute these charges in his apology....

>> No.619005

brb Hemlock

>> No.619008

Corrupting the youth? He hated democracy and encouraged the same in others. Check.

Impiety? He blatantly says the gods are nothing like they are portrayed by everyone else. Also, he claimed a daemon spoke to him. Check.

>> No.619031
File: 36 KB, 300x366, plato.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
619031

>My name is Plato and I invented the courtroom drama.

>> No.619033

It's impossible to tell really, because the circumstances of his death were obviously embellished and fictionalized by not only Plato but tons of authors and biased historians afterward. Ancient stories about Socrates can be important because they can show that certain ideas existed back then, but we should never believe for a moment that we know anything definite about the actual man and his death.

>> No.619045

>>619033

>we should never believe for a moment that we know anything definite about the actual man

An historian would claim that we "know" that his name was Socrates.

Also, is there anything definite about ancient history?

>> No.619047
File: 35 KB, 517x373, facepalm2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
619047

>>619008
>He hated democracy

>> No.619053

>>619047

>The denigration of democracy and of common men is a recurrent theme of both the Xenophontic and the Platonic Socrates.

>> No.619054

>>619047

It's pretty clear from The Republic that he really abhorred democracy..

>> No.619063
File: 4 KB, 164x164, 1272066932002.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
619063

>>619054
>The Republic
>Socrates

>> No.619064

Socrates was a rude asshole who flagrantly violated the standards of a community in a manner for which the proscribed punishment was death. And he knew this while he was doing it.

>> No.619067

>>619063
This. Plato is known for putting words in Socrates's mouth.

I don't really know, but I'd still say that Socrates was probably an aristocrat though.

>> No.619072

>>619064
Socrates - The hipster of Athens

>> No.619073

...be sure to give Asclepius a cock for me....

...socrates has been sick for a long time....


The pug nosed douche gets the cure-all dosage for ennui for being a troublesome douche.

>> No.619076

>>619067
>>619063

1. That was mostly in the later works, of which the republic is not one.
2. Xenophon who is the only other source on Socrates agrees with Plato on this.
3. You can't completely ignore Plato's accounts because he put words into Socrates mouth.

>> No.619084

>>619076

The Republic is considered a work from Plato's 'middle period'. I'd take care not to extrapolate too much about Socrates from it.

That said, it's clear that Socrates doesn't sympathize with the Democrats.

>> No.619102

>Plato is known for putting words in Socrates's mouth.

Socrates was known for putting his dick in Plato's mouth, so I'd say they're about even.

>> No.619138

>>619072

What exactly do hipsters do that's a capital crime?

>> No.619150

>>619138
Nothing. But if laws were as strict as back in Athens, they could probably be charged for a lot of things.

>> No.619246

>>619150

/facepalm

Please learn to not take one situation out of its context and place it into another.

>> No.619793

>>618680
lol

xza

>> No.619821

I don't think the Athenians were exactly right in sentencing Socrates to death.

However, when they found him guilty, he had the chance to pick his punishment. The punishment he picked was to be on a state subsidy and eat in the hall with all the Olympic champions.

Of course, according to Plato, he said this to enrage the Athenians, and THEN he said "Oh, or I can pay a fine."

They sentenced him to death.


It's interesting to look at the two accounts. Plato makes him out to be a man dying for the sake of wisdom and philosophy (he quite clearly says "If I cannot philosophize than I will not live." or something like that), and Plato makes him out to be angry at Athens, who has become more concerned with material success than with actual virtue.

Xenophon, on the other hand, says the reason Socrates chose death was that because his mind and his sight were starting to go bad with age, and he figured that if he couldn't think clearly, he might as well be dead. Of course, he still sermons the jury, but its less philosophical and more moralistic in tone.

My personal opinion: This guy would have pissed you off if you talked to him. No doubt about it. Did he break a law? I don't think so. But did he put everyone in the right mood to judge carefully? Hell no, and he knew it.

>> No.619829

Crazy man gets his due

Seriously. Some people are making lots of money educating the sons of rich guys ready to pay wise men to do it. Then some jerk comes and ruins their business.

Socrates was a pain in the ass for the sophists.

>> No.619847

As a man entitled to the concept of justice.

I really do like Socrates.

>> No.619852

The same way I interpret any generic execution for opinions: at once people taking things too seriously and not seriously enough.

>> No.619882

I consider his death an ethical martyrdom. He honestly stated the torment of any genius, especially one who is humble and truly wants to find someone or something beyond his "level" and finds nothing. He didn't know all of the answers, he searched for the truth, and that stepped on toes. Truth and encouraging others to find it are things that politicians aren't fans of.

>> No.620289

haughty elitist intellectual with nothing but contempt for the materialistic bourgeoisie herd?

SOCRATES WAS THE FIRST HIPSTER!!!!

>> No.620303

Very moral. He held his beliefs up in a pedestal even if they costed him his life. But I think the old man was smart. He knew death wasnt the end. Look at us, 3,000 yrs later and still talking about it

>> No.620307

I FEEL AS THOUGH NOONE HERE HAS ACTUALLY READ THE CRITO

>> No.620308

>>620303
Yeah, he's probably psyched that teenagers thousands of years later are talking about him on the intern...wait, he's dead. He doesn't give a shit about anything.

>> No.620310

Socrates was a philosopher.
He was a rudimentary sort of logician too.
To put it in a few words (though it's not really fair to), he was a teacher, a preacher, a thinker. He was a nuisance to the rulers, who didn't appreciate questions and being questioned.
He was put to death.

>> No.620312

>>620307
I've read all of Plato's dialogues actually. Plato's dialogues aren't historical works, however, and I doubt it would have been as simple as 'say the word and we'll escape, Socrates'.
Plato is thinking about justice in Crito.