/lit/ - Literature

File: 122 KB, 1254x1600, kim il sung sol.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 17:00:46 2015 No.6184228 [Reply] [Original]

>read "With the Century"
>read some of his speeches and essays
>mfw he's so misunderstood and was actually a reasonable president with democratic, revolutionary socialist principles and actually called for peace and reunification for Korea.

What would you recommend that presents a different narrative? Is there anything that objectively proves he was wrong? Has he committed any Stalin-like war crimes? Please present proof.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 17:03:15 2015 No.6184235 bump for interest.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:35:18 2015 No.6184612

>>6184228
irrelevent
Juche is utopian drivel
It's central thesis is that the main guiding force of history is the centrality of Man and its Leader
In other words, though the Kims claim lip-service without understanding what historical materialism means, is a complete idealist rejection of the marxist materialist conception of history, the idea that the major guiding force of history is material processes and of class conflict.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:42:49 2015 No.6184633

>By 1949, Kim and the Communists had consolidated totalitarian rule in North Korea and all parties and mass organizations were either eliminated or consolidated into the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland, a popular front but one in which the Workers Party predominated. Around this time, the "cult of personality" was promoted by the Communists, the first statues of Kim appeared, and he began calling himself "Great Leader".
>According to R.J. Rummel, an analyst of politically-charged deaths, Kim's regime had over 1 million democidal deaths through concentration camps, forced labor, and executions
>Archival material suggests that North Korea's decision to invade South Korea was Kim's initiative, not a Soviet one.

Well would you look at what 5 minutes of Wikipedia will get you.
This guy was a cum dumpster.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:45:41 2015 No.6184642 >>6184633 >implying Kim's enemies aren't complete jackasses as well Also, >Wikipedia

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:49:52 2015 No.6184660

>>6184642
Sources from Wikipedia information respectively.

>Jasper Becker (1 May 2005). Rogue Regime : Kim Jong Il and the Looming Threat of North Korea. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-803810-8
>Weathersby, Kathryn, The Soviet Role in the Early Phase of the Korean War, The Journal of American-East Asian Relations 2, no. 4 (Winter 1993): 432
33.^ Jump up to: a b Goncharov, Sergei N., Lewis, John W. and Xue Litai, Uncertain Partners: Stalin, Mao, and the Korean War (1993)
34.^ Jump up to: a b Mansourov, Aleksandr Y., Stalin, Mao, Kim, and China’s Decision to Enter the Korean War, 16 September – 15 October 1950: New Evidence from the Russian Archives, Cold War International History Project Bulletin, Issues 6–7 (Winter 1995/1996): 94–107Rummel, Rudolph J. (1997). Statistics of Democide: Genocide and Murder Since 1900. Chapter 10, Statistics Of North Korean Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources. ISBN 978-3-8258-4010-5.
Also
>Implying it's okay to carry out political killings because the individuals are "complete jackasses."

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:51:38 2015 No.6184668 >>6184660 >implying anti-communists don't carry out political killings because the communists are "complete jackasses"

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:51:54 2015 No.6184673
File: 1.60 MB, 1333x775, camp18.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6184228
This is what a North Korean concentration camp looks like. Now get the fuck out.

That in this day and age people can fall for such totalitarian drivel makes me fear more for the human race more than anything else.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:53:09 2015 No.6184678 >>6184668 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_wrongs_make_a_right That is like the most basic logical fallacy in the book anon.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:55:37 2015 No.6184691
File: 8 KB, 160x152, imagesODJL47IO.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6184668
>Implying I think political killings are ever justified.

Quit trying to be a Kim-il Sung apologist. The man was as cruel and reprehensible as his offspring. This man caused death and suffering for his own personal gain while masquerading as a champion for his people. You sound like someone who's bought into his cult of personality. Have fun kissing the feet of your Glorious Leader.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:55:51 2015 No.6184692 >Hey guys, I just read Mein Kampf, Hitler was so misunderstood, he was actually a great speaker who just wanted what was right for Germany Now we have Israel to deal with, thanks to his policies. Truly the worst dictator of all time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:56:06 2015 No.6184694 >>6184678 >implying communists care about bourgeois morality spineless liberal pls go

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:57:19 2015 No.6184701

>>6184612
It's central thesis is that of self-sufficiency, self-reliance and independence, actually. To me, it seemed like a quasi-nationalistic way of interpreting Marxism-Leninism but it is probably the one of the only (if not THE only) country on Earth that actively stands up against imperialism. This belligerent attitude is central to anti-Revisionist Marxism-Leninism. Elections do happen in the DPRK, so I wouldn't say they're "undemocratic." There's 4 major parties with elections every 6 years. If we're going to accuse them of rigging elections, human rights violations, etc., I think we're going to need evidence, no? I mean, I have plenty of evidence of "evil" things the U.S, (AND former Soviet Union) has done but I have yet to find conclusive evidence about North Korea.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:57:22 2015 No.6184702 >>6184691 I'm actually not a DPRK supporter. I'm just shitposting.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:58:10 2015 No.6184705

>>6184633
>>According to R.J. Rummel, an analyst of politically-charged deaths, Kim's regime had over 1 million democidal deaths through concentration camps, forced labor, and executions
it's the same people who claim 100000000 killed personally by stalin, isnt it

>>	Anonymuos Mon Feb 23 18:58:48 2015 No.6184709 File: 82 KB, 315x475, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] The only book anyone should ever read on the dprk

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:02:55 2015 No.6184723

>>6184633
>"my bourgeois source tells me your proletariat leader was evil."

Let's find something objective, please? I've read the Wikipedia article (an American perspective) and I've read "With the Century" (his own perspective), but I want to see past the subjectivity.

Just the facts. Can we prove he did anything wrong? What exactly do we mean by "wrong"? It was a revolution, after all, and I'm sure OUR revolutionaries did some awful things to the British. (tar and feathering for one thing).

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:03:02 2015 No.6184725 File: 44 KB, 419x371, pleb.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6184702

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:06:56 2015 No.6184741

>>6184701
I never said any of what you just said. I simply stated, as fact that Juche is idealist at it's core. The ideology, while still paying lipservice to ideas initially materialist, de facto, like the reviisionists they are, completely rejects the materialist conception of history in place of "revolutionary ideas" and that "man is the master of everything."\

" The Juche idea is a new philosophical thought which centres on man. It raised the fundamental question of philosophy by regarding man as the main factor, and elucidated the philosophical principle that man is the master of everything and decides everything. The philosophical principle of the Juche idea is the principle of man-centred philosiphy which explains man's position and role in the world. That man is master of everything means that he is the master of world and plays the decisive role in transforming the world and in shaping his destiny"

"The Juche idea represents an invariable guiding idea of the Korean revolution and a revolutionary banner of this time. A progressive idea plays an important role in socio-historical progress. When the people are guided by a progressive idea, they can be a powerful creator of history"

http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/1997/9712/news12/10.htm

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:08:57 2015 No.6184745

>>6184673
they have labor camps for prisoners as opposed to the mass incarceration system of the U.S. (which has about 1/2 its citizens behind bars at some point). Or do you think they're all political prisoners? They also have murderers, rapists, thieves, etc., and have dealt with it in this way.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:09:34 2015 No.6184747 >>6184701 >I mean, I have plenty of evidence of "evil" things the U.S, (AND former Soviet Union) has done but I have yet to find conclusive evidence about North Korea. You realize that Juche is literally pure ideology?

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:09:41 2015 No.6184749

>>6184723
We are not calling into question the integrity of American Revolutionaries, we are calling into question the leadership of Kim-il Sung pre and post-revolution. OP asked for evidence that he was not "a reasonable president with democratic, revolutionary socialist principles and actually called for peace and reunification with Korea." Evidence has been given to the contrary. Unless it's all some elaborate bourgeoisie conspiracy.

Plus he literally stated his goal was to brainwash.

>The most important thing in our war preparations is to teach all our people to hate U.S. imperialism. Otherwise, we will not be able to defeat the U.S. imperialists who boast of their technological superiority. -Pappa Kim

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:12:41 2015 No.6184759

>>6184749
brah, how are you supposed to create a movement opposed to a specific entity (like US imperalism) if you don't convince people to not like that entity. I mean seriously, it's not just dirty commies that do that, and hell, it's not even politicians that fucking do that. Fucking everyone would do that given context.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:14:52 2015 No.6184765

>>6184745
You are beyond despicable. Leftists wet their little pussies for prisioner's human rights when it's locals but don't gove a shit when North Korea tortures and detains them for life with no right to a fair trial.

Despicable hypocrite. Entire families including children are suffering in North Korean concentration camps right now. If you are not trolling I truly wish you the worst.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:15:30 2015 No.6184767

>>6184747
General Secretary Kim Jong Il said.

“The revolutionary movement is a conscious movement, and for this reason one must always hold fast to people’s thinking as the main thing in the revolutionary struggle and construction work. Doing this is an important principle that must be maintained in the revolution and construction.”

Attaching decisive importance to the ideological factor means giving importance to ideological factors among the two factors, ideological and material, in the revolutionary movement. Solving all problems by enhancing ideological consciousness means solving all problems by mobilizing people’s ideology rather than depending on technical or administrative methods.

It is necessary to place the main stress on ideology in the revolution and construction. That is because to do so is the law of the development of the revolutionary movement.

Ideological factor and material factor always act in the revolutionary movement. That is because there should be people and material conditions to make the revolution. Here the decisive factor is the people with ideological consciousness. However enough the material conditions are, the revolution and construction cannot win if the people are not ideologically moved. And the material conditions are prepared and used by the people. Therefore, in order to make the revolution and construction well, it is necessary to place the main stress on ideology.

Another reason for this is that it is the essential method of the people who fight for independence to solve all problems by mobilizing ideology.

The reactionary exploiter class and ruling class depend on cheating and coercion in moving the people whereas the revolutionaries who fight for the people use the method of awakening the people ideologically so that they voluntarily rise in the revolutionary struggle.

The revolutionaries have powerful ideological weapon to make the people conscious. That is the independent revolutionary idea created by the outstanding leader of revolution.

The reactionary exploiter class, the ruling class tries to spread its ideology, but its ideology is opposed to the interests of the working people and thus cannot be ideology of the masses and the ideology of the society.

Only the revolutionaries who are fighting for the independence of the people have revolutionary ideology that can be accepted by the people, and they fight to realize it. Therefore, they solve all problems by the method of enhancing the role of consciousness and mobilizing the people through arming them with revolutionary ideology.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:16:09 2015 No.6184770

>>6184759
brah, I understand where you're coming from, but can we take a step back here. Is anyone really going to try to argue that Kim-Il Sung, the man who started the most oppressive, totalitarian system in history, a system which is responsible for the death of millions of people, is all in all, a guy you'd have a beer with?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:16:33 2015 No.6184771 >>6184765 im pretty sure those underwent some trial, how you can claim it wasn't fair the only fair trial it's usa approved trial :^)

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:17:03 2015 No.6184772

>>6184741
Okay, I think I understand now. And yes, you're right--there are contradictory flaws between Juche and Marxism-Leninism (although one might argue that Juche is the application of Marxism-Leninism to the particular material conditions of Korea). But yes, I see where you're coming from. However, though this is a major flaw in the national ideology, I still think there socialist economy (still very much ingrained into their constitution and Juche philosophical works) has a great potential.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:22:56 2015 No.6184788

>>6184741
>The Juche idea is a new philosophical thought which centres on man. It raised the fundamental question of philosophy by regarding man as the main factor, and elucidated the philosophical principle that man is the master of everything and decides everything. The philosophical principle of the Juche idea is the principle of man-centred philosiphy which explains man's position and role in the world. That man is master of everything

you know it reminds me a soviet joke about a chukchi (a native like american escimo) who visited moscow and told what he heard and saw there to his relatives
'all for the man, all for the benefit of the man, and most importantly, I saw that man!' (:

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:24:26 2015 No.6184792

>>6184765
OP here.

I asked for evidence of this. No propaganda, no testimonials. Solid evidence. I've heard enough propaganda from both sides but it seems it's only the DPRK that wants to provide stats and explanations for things. The U.S and South Korea have so far just given me a blank stare and repeated the same old line about it being an oppressive regime. And some of their claims have actually been disproven.

>all males must have the Kim haircut

disproven by any video of any male North Korean that doesn't have this.

>North Korea threatened to nuke us!

No. After reading the full statement and put it in context, the exact quote was something more along the lines of "we'll defend ourselves with all we can if we have to deal with a U.S-backed invasion."

>North Korea sent a missile

No. That was a satellite.

And so on.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:27:50 2015 No.6184807 >>6184770 >"the facts don't back up any claim of genocide and he seems to be right on most things but C'MON, really?! We've been too brainwashed to think for ourselves. Kim is bad, remember? They told us!"

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:28:23 2015 No.6184812

>>6184792
>>North Korea sent a missile
>No. That was a satellite.
they once launched a couple of things, military rockets which they tested, which fell into the water something like 60-100km from the place where i live -_-
these fools cannot make a decently flying rocket for the life of them

their space rocket is a different story, afaik it wasnt proven that it succeeded

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:28:59 2015 No.6184815

>>6184792

>>6184633
>>6184668

Evidence was given by anon. But whatever, if any of you authoritarian leftists are looking for justification you're going to find it. And anyone who puts forth evidence to the contrary is going to get dismissed as "imperialist" or their claims will be labeled as "propaganda".

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:36:21 2015 No.6184841
File: 22 KB, 600x600, true freedom.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

You know what? I'm done with this thread. I gave evidence that was dismissed as a "bourgeoisie source". I put forth logical arguments and was labeled as someone who doesn't think for myself. To hell with this. All these Pappa Kim apologists probably think I'm some capitalist pig who pledges allegiance before every meal. I'm not. I just can't stand that there are people here who can't listen to reason. As long as there are people willing to make a case for such evil, such evil will always go to bed without worry.
To hell with Kim and his state.
Have a nice thread.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:36:52 2015 No.6184845

>>6184815
that was a Wikipedia article with sources from people who are anti-DPRK and pro-capitalism. I'm not just dismissing the whole thing, I just find it strange that so many people could claim to "know" so many things about a country that is so isolated. I've gone on Google Earth. So far, I've found churches (when I was told that Christians are oppressed), I've found roads (when they told me the infrastructure is practically non-existent outside of Pyongyang), I've found videos and documents proving political activity, elections and disagreements. Totalitarian? So far there's no reason to believe that? Oppressive? Well, according to one source, (of a man who went there on a tour) The Beatles are very popular there. Do they censor things? Probably so. Is the economy perfect? No, but that can be explained with all the sanctions we place against them. I'm split right now. I'm not an authoritative pro-DPRK all the way person. I'm just becoming more skeptical of the narrative I've been taught.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:42:14 2015 No.6184864

>>6184845
I've seen the concentration camps on Google Earth (yodok for example) and Kim's palatial estates that shouldn't even exist on a supossedly "egalitarian" communist society.

You've been provided pictures of said concentration camps in this thread. More of them can be easily googled with numerous sources to back them up including smuggled videos and defector testimonies... so fuck you.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:44:58 2015 No.6184880

>>6184772
Well, don't expect this "socialist economy" to last long. DPRK, because of influence from China, is going the same way Cuba is, and in the next 20-50 years, DPRK may be no different than Vietnam or Laos.

Also, the constitution isn't very marxist. It contains no mention of marxism or leninism in its constitution, and rarely mentions, of course, anything actually written by Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc, and have actually removed the statues of Lenin and Marx from

From the DPRK constitution
>Article 24
>Private property is confirmed to property meeting the simple and individual aims of the citizen.
>Private property consists of socialist distributions of the result of labor and additional benefits of the State and society.
>The products of individual sideline activities including those from the kitchen gardens of cooperative farmers and income from other legal economic activities shall also belong to private property.
>The State shall protect private property and guarantee its legal inheritance.

The State guerrentees Private property rights, and have collaberated with interanational bourgeoisie in the past with the creation of "Economic Development Zones," where foreign capitalists can invest into the NK economy. These zones were modeled after the Deng's (the man who reformed China to what it is today) reforms.

http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/061st_issue/98091708.htm#Chapter 1:Politics
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9608048/Lenin-and-Karl-Marx-statues-removed-from-North-Koreas-Kim-Il-sung-Square.html

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:57:11 2015 No.6184928 >>6184745 The US doesn't incarcerate entire families for three generations. There are literally children in these camps whose grandparents were sent there.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:01:42 2015 No.6184956 >>6184928 how do you know though

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:03:55 2015 No.6184964 >>6184956 Escapees.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:05:39 2015 No.6184971 >>6184964 from the camps?

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:25:17 2015 No.6185052

>>6184928
there's no proof of this. Testimonials from prisoners are highly unreliable and have proven to be inconsistent with that of other defectors from the same region. Trusting a serial killer or a rapist? Wouldn't they be seeking fame and capable of lying? 70% of defectors actually return to the DPRK. How do we explain that? There are impoverished South Koreans illegally entering North Korea. How do we explain that?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:28:20 2015 No.6185063 >>6185052 what there are some north korean gastarbeiters who return but those have families back then and cannot stay indefinitely anyway, they aren't refuges, no wonder they return

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:32:35 2015 No.6185079 >>6184228 Why the fuck would you take any historical document at face value like this? How fucking dense could you be?

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:34:09 2015 No.6185088

>>6185063
they return because South Korea has a crappy safety net and no job security.

they found SLAVES in a South Korean island. Child labor, forced labor, extreme poverty, racism-- it doesn't matter if it's in the South. They have kpop and Americanized culture. They are like us. They must be good.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:36:40 2015 No.6185094 >>6185079 I've read both sides and am now asking for an objective source.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:39:46 2015 No.6185107

>>6185088
i can believe that south korea may have a high unemployment rate and low unemployment benefits, i havent checked but why not, but surely they won't make the refuges starve and it's together with safety already better than what you have in the north where many are malnourished and almost everybody is risking to be imprisoned (afaik nk basically forces its citizens to participate in some kind of illegal activity to support themselves since their old system is almost ruined and the existing elements of the market economy are still illegal)

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 21:07:01 2015 No.6185221 >>6185094 There's no such thing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 21:10:11 2015 No.6185234 >>6185107 any proof?

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 21:13:30 2015 No.6185248

>>6185234
The only reliable way to get goods is through the black market, and NK's most intimidating soldiers being 5'6'' (indicating under-nutrition, therefore bad food distribution) are both very well-known facts collaborated by both NK and non-NK sources.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 21:18:51 2015 No.6185263 >>6185234 andrey lankov wrote a lot of nk new underground economy, others wrote too but he is one of the most popular sources

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 21:20:38 2015 No.6185272

>>6185248
But is this because of sanctions placed against them (and the natural famine of the 1990s) or is this because of some evil government policy? If so, can anyone care to explain which? Or what exactly is done? I mean, I've read Kim Il Sung's perspective. Knowing how benign (albeit a bit naive) he can sound, I think these would be his justifications. No one wants anyone else to starve. But economic sanctions have hurt them deeply. Coupled with the famine, even their enemies had to send food aide. Their poverty does not explain their supposed malignancy.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 21:37:52 2015 No.6185333

>>6185272
It's because the govt. is notoriously corrupt. We sent more than enough food in the nineties to feed all of NK, but most of it ended up in the stockpiles of higher officials.
If NK's economy weren't shit they'd be able to trade for the food they can't make. They were self-sufficient in food before 1994. In the seventeen years since the end of the Arduous March they have yet to regain that self-sufficiency. That's a sign of extreme economic inflexibility.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 21:40:01 2015 No.6185338 >>6184633 >wikipedia >history lmfao

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 21:41:38 2015 No.6185345 >>6184660 >implying it's not okay to kill people who are a detriment to the human race take your shitty moralism back to /mu/, pleb. it has no place in politics

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 22:31:49 2015 No.6185495

>>6185333
>I've heard this before
>still no proof

What evidence is there of this corruption? Do we know how much we sent in aide and how much the people's health and nutrition improved? If not, then lacking in evidence, we should take a neutral position, shouldn't we? And after all, it was economic sanctions we placed against them which caused them to suffer. We made sure they'd lack in resources and then blamed their socialist economy for not having enough resources. Tie someone to a chair and tell them to "try and get up." If they can't get up, they're obviously weaker than you are. Hawhawhaw! >:D

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 22:51:12 2015 No.6185554 >>6184633 >Wikipedia >about DPRK lad...

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:02:08 2015 No.6185584 >>6184709 Martin and Myers are amateurish mouthpieces. >North Korea are actually secretly Japanese style fascists and racists even though everything about their ideology and practice is contrary to this! I heard a Korean say "impure" once! Garbage.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:11:51 2015 No.6185603

>>6184792
>I asked for evidence of this.
You'll never get it, and the people insisting all anti-DPRK prop is ipso facto true will never put together that pretty much everything said about the place falls into the categories of anecdote without evidence or patently false. The DPRK could be even worse then they say it is but we pretty much won't know until the territory opens up more (ie: when the US backs off or invades and takes over). The most likely truth is that the prison camps exist and they're presumably not great to live in but they're not these, almost always anonymous, nightmare stories either.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:14:40 2015 No.6185609 >being the equivalent of a 1930s pro-Soviet apologist who argues "it's all capitalistic propaganda, don't believe those lies" >in 2015 Sometimes I am filled with fedoric euphoria at just how many people in this world are more deluded than I am.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:20:32 2015 No.6185629 >>6185609 >Even though most of the sensationalist information about this place has been proven wrong time and time again you should just believe everything you hear and read without needing evidence! Are you ascending?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:30:14 2015 No.6185668 >>6185107 instagram.com/everydaydprk/ instagram.com/krahun/

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:30:58 2015 No.6185672

>>6185629
Even as late as the 80s, there were some people who argued that the Soviet Union was actually a thriving place and you shouldn't listen to degenerate American lies not backed by evidence. Because those sensationalist lies were proven wrong time and time again, and you shouldn't believe everything you hear and read without some objective evidence, you know? Bless their souls, it's simply incredible that there were so few people willing to speak the truth about the glory of the USSR in the West in the face of massive capitalist dogma. They sure showed everyone.

Keep on fighting the good fight, comrade. Let me know when there's a space open in the DPRKIDF.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Mon Feb 23 23:31:18 2015 No.6185675 >>6185554 >Wikipedia >for anything You are delusional if you don't think that Wikipedia has been completely coopted by government social engineers and psyops.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:33:34 2015 No.6185679 Wow, he's so misunderstood! It's not like you've been getting biased information or anything, I mean speeches and biographies are obviously a great place to get objective information!

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:40:14 2015 No.6185697

>>6185672
The majority of people that lived in the USSR claim it was better than the capitalism the current states have.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/12/19/most-residents-ofexsovietstatessayussrbreakupharmful.html
And most people that live in the USSR were around in the 80s when it was more like welfare capitalism than socialism.
>Still insisting people just believe just clap your hands and say I believe!
This isn't even a defense, it's just the standard mode of behavior for rational people. Enjoy being taken in by every amazing rumor, though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:43:32 2015 No.6185706 >>6185675 Wikipedia is okay for some things, though. For example, the article on horses is fine. ... right?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:49:23 2015 No.6185722 >>6185697 >post-USSR economies transitioned poorly from loss of subsidies and Russian oligarchs who stayed in control, so that means the USSR was totally sustainable and misunderstood Posner pls

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Mon Feb 23 23:51:50 2015 No.6185732 File: 872 KB, 1352x901, Pferdeauge.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6185706 >For example, the article on horses is fine.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:54:32 2015 No.6185744 >>6185732 R-right?? D:

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:57:47 2015 No.6185753 >>6185722 >My masters know better than the people that experienced both! Kill yourselfskiy

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:59:40 2015 No.6185764 >>6185722 bear with me here...what if it was revisionism infiltration that caused the USSR to fall? Special interests had a lot to gain once the USSR opened its markets to the West.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:59:40 2015 No.6185765

>>6184228
Why do leftists attempt to deify their leaders just like the right? Don't you see your argument could be so much better if you just admit he was a bastard but that his ideas and some actions are moral and justifiable? Why do you want to pin the debate on personal glorification?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:02:11 2015 No.6185776 >>6185753 >I know better about North Korea than North Korean refugees because their accounts are biased propaganda from evil capitalists! You first, pinko.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Feb 24 00:04:08 2015 No.6185783 ussr failed due to the growing inefficiency of its planned economy but yeah, in the breznev's times it seems it was an easy life, albeit boring, so some people miss it

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:06:12 2015 No.6185793

>>6185495
Why don't you just admit that you are enamored with North Korea and won't believe anything but being dropped in the middle of the country to find your own proof?

Yes, all the evidence is unreliable, but all the evidence also points in roughly the same direction: North Korea is a hellhole.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:06:52 2015 No.6185798

>>6185765
I never personally met the guy. I don't wuv him but Jesus, man! He seemed like a nice guy.

>"For a free and peaceful new world"

Such an evil speech. Just like Hitler! **rolls eyes**

His ideas were in line with Marxist-Leninism, his personality seemed reasonable and sane. I honestly can't find much faults here. Kim Il Sung shouldn't be worshipped, but he was pretty ideal as a leader.

>other examples of great socialist leaders = Salvador Allende, Vladimir Lenin, Ho Chih Minh,

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:13:22 2015 No.6185823

>>6185697
>be Communist country for decades and have your economy come off at the wheels because of it
>expect to become prosperous in a matter of 20 years while being lead by oligarchs

Of course the USSR break up was harmful, it was a retarded action brought on by even stupider actions. Black market bootleggers became multimillionaires because of how the government handled privatization of the industries. Currently, Russia is ranked 143 on the Economic Freedom Index, right next to Liberia. Capitalism is not all good, of course. Its produced mixed results, but that is a cut above communism. We either aren't ready for the transition or the system is deeply flawed.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:14:58 2015 No.6185830

>>6185793
...did you not read anything I put?

>I admit NK is poor & imperfect
>I say this is because of economic sanctions and a famine

>response = "you just love North Korea, why don't u just marry it? Our propaganda is better than yours! :p"

Um...ok.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:15:33 2015 No.6185832 >>6185798 Is this b8?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:20:01 2015 No.6185849 >>6185832 You find it unbelievable that anyone could disagree with you or your imperialist leaders. If you don't want to respond to this disagreement with an open mind and the facts laid out on the table, fine, then yeah this is "bait." Now go away.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:22:41 2015 No.6185858

>>6185798
>Kim Il Sung shouldn't be worshipped, but he was pretty ideal as a leader.
Please.
>>other examples of great socialist leaders = Salvador Allende, Vladimir Lenin, Ho Chih Minh
PLEASE!

>>6185830
>Our propaganda is better than yours

What exactly do you consider propaganda? Is the modern field of economics just propaganda? Is Democracy just a conspiracy theory?

I'm not even going to argue against you, its just very rare you get this big of a Communism peddler.

>>6185849
Are Soviet plots to take over Middle Eastern countries and destabilize Europe not Imperialistic to you?

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:32:14 2015 No.6185894

>>6185849
No it's more that you express yourself like a retard and they are obviously a militaristic oppressive regime regardless of the sensationalist particulars. Go back to whatever retarded hellhole accepts your idiotic communication standards, newfriend.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:34:52 2015 No.6185902

>>6185858
Kim Il Sung was the George Washington of North Korea. Both Washington and Kim IL Sung were fallible, mortal men. This doesn't mean they shouldn't be admired for the good they did.

These leaders were admirable. Unless you're not a socialist...

>Salvador Allende (an ELECTED Marxist) was murdered by U.S-backed fascists who put in Pinochet's dictatorial regime.

>Lenin revolutionized Marx's theory and put it into practice, leading the end to centuries of autocratic Czar rule. (which capitalists never complained against).

>Ho Chih Minh helped lead the end of French colonialism and had to deal with his nation being invaded by the U.S in a pointless war. He also actively opposed and went to war with the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia.

Propaganda is the communication of a perspective to convince or persuade.

Democracy is impossible without socialism.

The Soviet Union was imperialistic in its later years. I don't support it without question. (I mean, we had the Sino-Soviet split).

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:38:21 2015 No.6185922

>>6185894
>ad hominem. As expected. Childish.

nothing is "obviously" anything if you have no proof or logic to back it up. You're telling me the most powerful country on earth and the western world (which controls all media sources you watch or listen to) would NEVER lie to you about their #1 enemy?

Alright then. Carry on.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:41:38 2015 No.6185939 >>6185858 Not that guy, but if the only rebuttal you can offer is "PLEASE!", you don't seem to have real concrete reasons or facts to back up your beliefs. I have no stake in the argument; I'm just telling you your side looks weak.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:45:24 2015 No.6185962 >>6184228 >Please present proof. Wages existed and exist in the DPRK.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:49:24 2015 No.6185975

>>6185922
You don't get to call others childish when you try to seriously go around saying shit like "wuc" and *action*. They are a militaristic dynasty and 12 year old's on xbox can confirm they have no electrical infrastructure. Is it even possible for you to post without that pissant attempt to sign off and end the conversation as if your word is law by virtue of how demeaningly cold you can be? Pull your head out of your pseudo-intellectual, incessantly smarmy ass.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:52:31 2015 No.6185979 >Heredity leadership is leftist because they say so and must be rabidly defended! Awful. Learn to pick your battles red menace. >CAPTCHA: unork Kek

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:00:48 2015 No.6186007 >>6185962 your statement is cool and all but it isn't proof. Also: wages and capital don't end in socialist countries. The DPRK is socialist, not communist yet.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:03:12 2015 No.6186015 >>6185979 >mfw Kim Jong Un was dually elected in a national election, as was his father and his family is just extremely popular (akin to the American Kennedy's or the Bush family).

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:06:07 2015 No.6186026 Looks like SOMEONE hasn't read Barbara Demick's Nothing to Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:06:46 2015 No.6186030 >>6186007 They're more like a military monarchy. Or I guess just a modern monarchy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:07:47 2015 No.6186033 >>6186015 What I want all of you idiots to do is go through this thread, and realize that you look EXACTLY like how /pol/ looks w/r/t 3rd reich.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:09:40 2015 No.6186040

>>6185975
what do 12 year olds on their Xbox know about an entire country's politics and economy? What do YOU know about this entire country's politics and economy? The truth is actually "not very much." But you can't handle uncertainty, you must pick a side. You see that they're militaristic, you associate that with "bad" "fascism" and "dictatorship" and given all the misinformation that floats around, it's no wonder you believe what you believe.

Your argument is basically "ignore the facts; you're stupid; OF COURSE North Korea is oppressive! Duh! EVERYONE knows that!

But you still have not provided evidence.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:14:55 2015 No.6186059

>>6186033
/pol/ is largely racist, reactionary and provides fraudulent evidence to back up their claims.

I'm here with an open mind ready to denounce the DPRK but no one will provide any credible non-Wikipedia something source against them.

And you haven't responded to my statement! They DO have elections and I can prove that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:17:30 2015 No.6186070 >>6186030 saying it doesn't make it true. What's so hard about providing evidence before you mouth off a nation of millions of people?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:17:54 2015 No.6186073 >>6186040 You and I both know you are anti-military in virtually every aspect. It is also indisputable they have no electronic infrasturcture and that children can see this. Calm down, you must be hyperventilating.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:22:01 2015 No.6186085 >>6186059 >>6186070 This is pathetic.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 01:39:47 2015 No.6186137 >>6186073 how am I anti-military? I'm not some liberal. Hyperventilating? Not at all. But you still haven't provided any evidence.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 02:21:48 2015 No.6186269

>>6186007
Read Marx on what the lower stage of communism might look like, and interrogate the history of workers' "spontaneous" revolutions. Their social institutions do not look like a bourgeois bureaucratic state apparatus, and the first fucking thing they abolish is wages.

The wage relation is a sine qua non of capitalism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 02:37:22 2015 No.6186310 >>6186059 /pol/ is just as shit as every other board but they do provide citations for all their sources so no it's not "fraudulent evidence"

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 02:46:50 2015 No.6186335

>>6186310
>but they do provide citations for all their sources so no it's not "fraudulent evidence"

>>6186310
>cats rule the world using the magic of puppetry

Wow, I never knew that about cats, what a citation, it must be true because the post that claim comes from was cited, and because Anonymous is a politics of cats expert.

…

Fucknuck

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 04:32:49 2015 No.6186516

You should check out Andrei Lankov's stuff, he doesn't love communism or capitalism so has no interest in fitting DPRK into a specific narrative and tries to talk about actual facts.
http://www.koreaandtheworld.org/andrei-lankow/

In this podcast he basically says that DPRK is a normal and impoverished country, making a slow and bizarre transition to non-liberal capitalism, and is ruled by authoritarians. The people don't spend their time thinking about the system or the Leader. The political machine doesn't spend its time actively oppressing the people (though it does do it when it's benefical for the rulers). People do not live in complete absence of electricity or technology, a very large part of citizens have seen pirated South Korean dramas. The government doesn't actually believe that it can destroy its enemies with armed force and won't nuke anyone, but it practices blackmail politics and successfuly makes use of its international image of irrationality and danger for maximum benefit. The government cadre do live in luxury, but it's far from what a Westerner would imagine around the word "luxury".
This sounds pretty sensible to me.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 10:57:40 2015 No.6187327 >>6185345 How about you take your shitty politics to /pol/?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 11:58:44 2015 No.6187569 http://www.korea-dpr.com/e_library.html >For anyone who wants to read this. I came asking evidence. No evidence was found. I tried.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 12:05:33 2015 No.6187600 >>6186335 >This is how tumblr actually thinks You're super random, katie

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 12:07:14 2015 No.6187605 >>6187327 This thread was about a book ("With the Century") and about any books with opposing narratives and evidence to support this opposing perspective. Politics was secondary yet it lead to this thread getting derailed.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 12:15:01 2015 No.6187627 http://www.korea-dpr.com/lib/202.pdf completely free

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 12:46:33 2015 No.6187724 >>6187569 wow and there's tourism in the DPRK too? hmmm...

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 12:47:44 2015 No.6187729 >>6184228 >Has he committed any Stalin-like war crimes? Stalin hasn't committed any war crimes. (Well, except for Katyn, I guess, but who cares about that anyways.)

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 12:52:12 2015 No.6187748 >>6187729 Good point, though I do hear a lot about a Holodomor and other such things. I should research more on Stalin. Then there's also the question of whether or not these actions can be justified given the circumstances (often, they can).

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 13:43:48 2015 No.6187945 Lol he looks like a Korean version of that Colonel Sanders guy XD such a cute old man ^-^

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 13:45:51 2015 No.6187957 >>6187748 >>6187724 yeah, tours are actually very common. And they take you anywhere in the country, not "just certain areas" as you've probably been told.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 13:47:10 2015 No.6187961 >>6184807 democide, not genocide

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 13:50:00 2015 No.6187972

>>6187748
>Good point, though I do hear a lot about a Holodomor and other such things.
a) Holodomor is not really a real thing, it's mostly a forced meme invented by far-right types who were jealous that only Jews had a proper genocide
b) Wasn't a war crime, it happened at peacetime and no troops were invovled
c) Wasn't linked to Stalin in any credible way.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 13:58:32 2015 No.6188007 >>6187961 democide? Any evidence? I've been having trouble finding any sources.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:02:12 2015 No.6188017 >>6187972 Ah, interesting points! I'll try researching it. Thanks for the info!

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:04:21 2015 No.6188024 >>6187972 /lit/ truely is the far left version of /pol/

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:11:04 2015 No.6188052

>>6188024
you say that like it's a bad thing.
moderation is not necessarily objective. By far, the far left has proven to be reasonable and rational while the far right has been reactionary and sentimental. They have no theoretical or philosophical basis, really. It's just

>muh feels

this is why they hate blacks and Jews. They're own personal discomfort and nothing else. This is how they justify the suffering of others.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:14:00 2015 No.6188060 >People actually defending North Korea This is worst tha Stalin psting or Milton Friendman advocates.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:16:23 2015 No.6188068

>>6188052
Phenomenal how you people manage to convince people to write off the right win as "reactionary" when your entire movement is a giant bitch against the prevailing social order. Communist redefinition and revisionism is just mind-blowing and it even works. Fuck this gay earth.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:19:25 2015 No.6188082 >>6184928 we don't incarcerate families for three generations, huh? http://futureofchildren.org/futureofchildren/publications/docs/20_02_08.pdf http://www.ipr.northwestern.edu/events/briefing/after-prison.html

>>	trumancapote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Tue Feb 24 14:20:34 2015 No.6188087 >>6188060 This is one dude shitposting, he's made a few threads now.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:20:52 2015 No.6188089 >>6188060 care to provide some evidence of any wrongdoing? I'd honestly love to hear it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:23:21 2015 No.6188097 >>6188068 Communists and anarchists are revolutionary. There is thought and theory behind their actions. Fascists and Nazis are reactionary. There is hatred and bigotry behind their actions. Ok?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:29:06 2015 No.6188112 >>6188097 Pure ideology

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:32:09 2015 No.6188120

>>6188052
I didn't mean it in a bad way, I was just comparing.

As for your statement on how the far right is just muh feels while the far left is rational, I completely disagree.

First of all what are you comparing? Because killing jews and niggers is not an economic system, which is what we're comparing. Fascism was a leftist movement first and foremost. And leftism is completely, entirely based on "muh feels".

"Right-wing" economic systems, i.e. capitalist systems, are on the other hand empirical.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:32:46 2015 No.6188124 >>6188089 I have no "reliable" source, like you classify a lot of them, so I'm not going to bother. But they don't even allow Amnesty International to enter the country. That smells bad. Unless you consider Amnesty International a non reliable source.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:34:25 2015 No.6188129 File: 16 KB, 277x269, 1418833701388.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >this entire thread

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:35:05 2015 No.6188135 >>6188097 Stalin genocided entire ethnic groups : the cossacks, the balts, the tatars, the russian koreans, etc.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 14:48:50 2015 No.6188189 >>6187748 The kulaks were massive pricks anyways. If they hadn't been expropriating everyone's grains for centuries, they would've been fine.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:02:14 2015 No.6188235 >>6188124 They let ordinary Americans enter on tours though. And every anti-DPRK documentary shot there? Amnesty International isn't reliable. Amnesty International cites The Guardian. And who does The Guardian cite? Amnesty International!

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:04:07 2015 No.6188242

>>6188235
>They let ordinary Americans enter on tours though. And every anti-DPRK documentary shot there?
I know about this. I'm not talking about that.

>Amnesty International isn't reliable.
You are going to say this about every source that gets posted here. Not even going to bother with you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:06:32 2015 No.6188249 File: 35 KB, 550x581, http%3A%2F%2F36.media.tumblr.com%2Ff9e8f911a065257f33c405a4167ea29e%2Ftumblr_n1xfx6uxNV1qaihw2o1_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Post yfw the NKIDF exists

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:09:35 2015 No.6188268

>>6188120
Fascism claimed to be neither left nor right wing (although for the most part, they did adhere to right wing ideology). Leftists are generally collectivists and the end goal (communism/anarchism) is an end to authoritarianism. Fascism is purely "muh feels" because it creates a subjective "degeneracy" and an artificial patriotism/nationalism that seeks for the eternal, infallible State control. The end state of far leftism is the end of the state and bourgeois ownership.

This is why you're wrong.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:15:20 2015 No.6188288

>>6188242
>1 particular source is unreliable because it self-cites.
>not even going to bother

Ok then, keep looking.

Here's what you will find: The DPRK does have a malnutrition problem, they have low electric power, a good medical system, a strong military (I believe last time I checked it was 2nd place only to the U.S), and a fine education system, with no homelessness or unemployment to speak of.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:16:29 2015 No.6188290 >>6188288 Source?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:19:17 2015 No.6188298 >>6188112 everything is pure ideology. You're adhering to the principles of John Locke as much as I follow the ideas of Karl Marx.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:25:52 2015 No.6188322 >>6188290 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3677063/ Here's one. Stay tuned for more.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:28:52 2015 No.6188332

>>6188268
>Fascism claimed to be neither left nor right wing
I don't care what they claim. I care what they are. And fascism is, for the most part, a left-wing ideology. Heck, the nazi is short for national-socialist. Socialist.

> Leftists are generally collectivists and the end goal (communism/anarchism) is an end to authoritarianism.
That's incredibly ironic, considering that the only way to enforce collectivism is through force.

>Fascism is purely "muh feels" because it creates a subjective "degeneracy" and an artificial patriotism/nationalism that seeks for the eternal, infallible State control.
The same could be said about the imaginary "workers of the world unite" and "muh evil bourgeois" of left wing ideologies.

>The end state of far leftism is the end of the state and bourgeois ownership.
Yeah right, the track record of communist countries says otherwise.

>This is why you're wrong.
Spoken like a true ideologue.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:29:53 2015 No.6188339 >>6188288 >a strong military (I believe last time I checked it was 2nd place only to the U.S) Lol ok.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:32:12 2015 No.6188350 >>6188322 What a unreliable source.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:40:46 2015 No.6188394

>>6188332
Nazism claimed to be "National Socialist." Socialist, right. Ergo, leftist, right? Wrong. I don't care what they consider themselves, I care what they are. Their rhetoric was social-democratic and their policy was corporatism and capitalism, not socialism. They donned the name because "socialism" was a popular buzzword in Germany at the time. Communists, socialists and anarchists were persecuted under the 3rd Reich.

Collectivism isn't through force if it's the people themselves (and a majority at that!) who initiate the revolution.

No because under fascism the State is good just because it is. Under socialism, the state is a temporary vanguard for the people. Capitalism and colonialism's negative effects on people are well-noted. It isn't emotions that determine the decision to have a revolution. It's a logical will to survive and to establish a new, better system.

>"communist countries" No. All of these so far have been Marxist Socialist States. Communism is stateless as well as classless. Read some Marxist literature before you criticize the theory.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:44:35 2015 No.6188416 >>6188350 it doesn't cite itself and presents an international approach to the facts. I can show you sources of statements from Kim Jong Il himself if you want a non-bourgeois perspective that proves there was a malnutrition problem.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:46:03 2015 No.6188426 >>6188416 >I can show you sources of statements from Kim Jong Il Now that's a really unreliable source.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:47:45 2015 No.6188438

>>6188332
>And fascism is, for the most part, a left-wing ideology

Which is why fascism has universally expanded the reproduction of capital, murdered trade unionists, and instituted reactionary social policies.

>the only way to enforce…is through force
Yes, that's a tautology. The only way to eat shit is to eat. The only way to sleep lightly is to sleep.

>The same could be said
I can take you 25m east of me and show you surplus value being extracted.

>the track record of communist countries
state states gonna state, you're pretty good at trying to ineffectively conceal tautologies.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:48:06 2015 No.6188441

>>6188394
>Nazism claimed to be "National Socialist." Socialist, right. Ergo, leftist, right? Wrong. I don't care what they consider themselves, I care what they are. Their rhetoric was social-democratic and their policy was corporatism and capitalism, not socialism
Social-democracy is a variant of socialism.

>They donned the name because "socialism" was a popular buzzword in Germany at the time. Communists, socialists and anarchists were persecuted under the 3rd Reich.
Plenty of communists, anarchists and socialists were persecuted in the USSR. Makhnovists comes to mind. This doesn't mean that the USSR wasn't a leftist state. Otherwise, there has never been a leftist state in history and you might as well post the "communism has never been tried" meme.

>Under socialism, the state is a temporary vanguard for the people.
Funny, fascism claims the same thing.

>Capitalism and colonialism's negative effects on people are well-noted.
What negative effects capitalism and colonialism might have had are dwarfed by the massive amount of positive effects capitalism and colonialism have had. You can thank capitalism for the material comforts you enjoy today and, if you're non-white, you can thank colonialism for having included you in western civilization.

>It isn't emotions that determine the decision to have a revolution.
Are you serious? It's always emotions.

>It's a logical will to survive and to establish a new, better system.
Give me a break. Killing the rich in an orgy of violence is not rational but impulsive and savage, and never leads to a new, better system.

The past hundred years have shown capitalism to be the best economic system. Deal with it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:52:36 2015 No.6188462 >>6188438 Literally what? Try not speaking like an incoherent buffoon. Your post is indecipherable.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:52:39 2015 No.6188463

>>6188426
well I can show you a bourgeois source, a DPRK source and a source that tries to be objective. If they all agree (and they do), then we can safely make the assumption that there is truth to the statement "North Korea has a malnutrition problem because of sanctions placed against it and because of a famine they had in the mid to late 1990s." I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat if I want facts.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:54:30 2015 No.6188474

>>6188463
>well I can show you a bourgeois source, a DPRK source and a source that tries to be objective. If they all agree (and they do), then we can safely make the assumption that there is truth to the statement
That's not how how statements and sources work, but ok.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:54:56 2015 No.6188477 >>6188462 he makes sense. You're stupid for not understanding.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 15:56:59 2015 No.6188483 >>6188477 >he makes sense What he said is : >The only way to eat shit is to eat. The only way to sleep lightly is to sleep. >state states gonna state, I know you want to defend a fellow lefty, but come on.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:00:08 2015 No.6188493 >>6188474 It is a hell of a lot closer than previous attempts at dealing with sources here, and it at least deals with the tendency for political bias regarding the DPRK. It shows a solid theorisation of bias, but not a theorisation of antecedencey.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:01:08 2015 No.6188497 >>6188483 >the only way to enforce collectivism is through force. the only way to enforce collectivism is through force.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:03:11 2015 No.6188506 >>6188497 Oh all right. The only way to have/to obtain collectivism is through force. Happy?

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:05:13 2015 No.6188514

>>6188506
No, because it is a bald assertion and has the same reasoning as your tautological reasoning. Try, "The only way to obtain collectivism is through force ***because*** I believe [social process] to be true." That's an argument. Then people can question your argument based on the validity of [social process] or the causative link between it and your assertion.

But at the moment you're reasoning by assertion like an erect penis saying "look at me, I've just discovered adolescence, somebody wank me."

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:05:44 2015 No.6188516

>>6188483
>>the only way to enforce…is through force. Yes, that's a tautology. The only way to eat shit is to eat. The only way to sleep lightly is to sleep.

Basically, you saying that "collectivism can only be enforced by force" is a redundant statement. It can only be enforced through force. We adhere to our current system by "force" also. Elections happen by force. The system is enforced using force (the military).

>note: read up on the difference between the dictatorship of the proletariat and the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:06:39 2015 No.6188523 >>6184841 I would seriously rather entertain a brainwashed N.Korean over anarchist trash any day. At least they have some grounding in reality

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:09:54 2015 No.6188541 File: 45 KB, 341x500, 1363739175571.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >mfw commies on /lit/ are just as delusional as holocaust deniers on /pol/

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:10:53 2015 No.6188546 >>6188514 All right, do you have any examples of collectivization where millions of people didn't die? That would be a good start if you wished to refute me. Because frankly, the evidence favors me. >>6188516 Prove me wrong then.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:11:53 2015 No.6188554 >>6188541 holocaust deniers at least have funny memes

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:16:53 2015 No.6188577 >>6188493 >It is a hell of a lot closer than previous attempts at dealing with sources here, and it at least deals with the tendency for political bias regarding the DPRK. But it isn't and it doesn't.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:16:57 2015 No.6188578

>>6188441
Social-democracy is a revisionist, non-Marxist variant of socialism. Yes, social-Democrats were persecuted in the USSR. Socialism isn't a monolithic thing. Counterrevolutionary variants of socialism (utopian, social-democratic, Trotskyist, Frankfurt school, etc.) are liberal and thus should not be lumped together with Marxism, which opposes these.

Socialism was tried. Socialism is the transition stage towards communism. Communism has only been tried in small communes that were quickly ransacked by capitalist states.

Fascism has an eternal state. It does not claim the state to be a temporary apparatus. You're just plain wrong on that.

>"you descendants of slaves should be happy we enslaved your great-great-great-great-great grandpappy! If not you wouldn't have such a peaceful life in this here ghetto! Be happy we did this to you and you. Be happy we colonized your country and extracted a lot of its valuable resources. If not, how could've you ever progressed?"

Um...ok. >>>/pol/

revolutions aren't spontaneous. There's a plan and a theory. This is why it's different than fascism, which is reactionary and based on the wants of the few (the elite), not of the masses.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:20:11 2015 No.6188591

>>6188546
>All right, do you have any examples of collectivization where millions of people didn't die? That would be a good start if you wished to refute me.

This is a tu quoque, another argumentative fallacy, in internet english you're sitting in the street shouting, "ASUKA IS BEST WAIFU PROVE ME WRONG FAGGOT." Don't do that.

The Vietnamese collectivisation didn't kill millions of people, it only killed hundreds of thousands.

The Hungarian collectivisation killed barely anyone, it only involved mass incarcerations.

The English collectivisation, called the enclosures, only killed a few million Irish.

As you'd know, in your advanced readings of contemporary genocide theory, waving around a stack of numbers as if it means anything has been officially declared buffoonish and anti-methodological. As you'd also know from your deep reading into the Holodomor, the Soviet Party attempted famine aid, but this failed because of the distribution networks being urban centre based and because the reserves of local communities had been so thoroughly plundered in previous rounds. (Which is a damn sight better than the 1943/4 Bengal famine).

The specific and historical actions of single incidents are worth dealing with. Unlike the Bengali famine, the Soviet Union made a decision to try to ameliorate the 1933 famine in the Ukraine—does this make Churchill a worse governor than Stalin?

The answer is: it is irrelevant, both economic systems relied on periodic mass starvations until the 1950s when Soviet mass starvation ended.

The next question is: did solving mass famine in the Soviet Union's colonies make it more desirable to live in than Western Capitalism and its colonies? Again, the answer is irrelevant.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:27:59 2015 No.6188631

>>6188541
OP here. (still)

>"What would you recommend that presents a different narrative? Is there anything that objectively proves he was wrong? Has he committed any Stalin-like war crimes? Please present proof."

--part of I originally posted

Yeah, I guess /lit/ is just like an opposite version of /pol/ :D

EXCEPT ITS NOT. I asked for a different perspective and I got it (albeit with no credible source except the one I provided). /pol/ is an echo-chamber. If you go in, they'll scream and cover their ears. /lit/ is a cliff where some jump off and some stay atop it, in fear.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:34:11 2015 No.6188666

>>6188578
>Social-democracy is a revisionist, non-Marxist variant of socialism. Yes, social-Democrats were persecuted in the USSR. Socialism isn't a monolithic thing. Counterrevolutionary variants of socialism (utopian, social-democratic, Trotskyist, Frankfurt school, etc.) are liberal and thus should not be lumped together with Marxism, which opposes these.
All right. Although I hope you realize that some people consider trotskyism to be "real marxism". It's all very subjective.

>Socialism was tried.
And it failed

>Communism has only been tried in small communes that were quickly ransacked by capitalist states.
They failed too, then.

>Fascism has an eternal state. It does not claim the state to be a temporary apparatus. You're just plain wrong on that.
I wasn't clear. I said that Fascism was the same as communism for claiming to be "a vanguard for the people". In communism, it's the working class, in Fascism it's specific ethnic groups.

>"you descendants of slaves should be happy we enslaved your great-great-great-great-great grandpappy! If not you wouldn't have such a peaceful life in this here ghetto! Be happy we did this to you and you. Be happy we colonized your country and extracted a lot of its valuable resources. If not, how could've you ever progressed?"
What a childish appeal to emotion. The fact remains that colonialism helped integrate the colonized countries into the world economy and brought european technology and institutions into the colonized lands.

>revolutions aren't spontaneous. There's a plan and a theory. This is why it's different than fascism, which is reactionary and based on the wants of the few (the elite), not of the masses.
How can you claim that with a straight face when the commies took power after a crippling civil war while the nazis were voted into power!! The reality is the exact opposite of which you claim!!

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:37:23 2015 No.6188684

>>6188591
>This is a tu quoque, another argumentative fallacy, in internet english you're sitting in the street shouting, "ASUKA IS BEST WAIFU PROVE ME WRONG FAGGOT." Don't do that.
That's not what a tu quoque fallacy is.

As for your post, it's a lot of words to basically say "no, I don't have any examples".

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:39:52 2015 No.6188702 >>6188631 >only MY sources and those of communist sympathisers and dictators are what I consider "reliable" How are you not as deluded as the random stormfag who cries that every evidence that the holocaust happened was made up by "DE JOOZ!" again?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:39:54 2015 No.6188703 >>6188684 I provided concrete examples where collectivisation killed fewer than millions. If you have a problem with reading comprehension remedial literacy classes are widely available.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:41:46 2015 No.6188716 >>6188703 I didn't mean "millions" literally you fucking moron. If it's only 999 999 that doesn't make it "okay". And mass incarcerations are not a valid method either.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:58:09 2015 No.6188808

>>6188716
>valid methods
By your reasoning capitalism is equivalent to communism due to the mass starvations forced by enclosures in Ireland, First Nations, French Belgian and German africa, British india, South America, etc.

Stop playing in filth. "Validity" has no place in inquiring into the nature of past societies.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 16:58:16 2015 No.6188809

>>6188666
Trial and error is an important part in empiricist, materialist Marxist thought. But what happens when the trial didn't happen correctly? It's like testing the theory of gravity by launching a bunch of rockets into space. "Oh would you look at that! Gravity isn't so certain after all!" says the casual, uninformed observer. But they don't know what rockets are or what gravity is.
What happened when the Black Panther Party (Maoists) rose up and started feeding children and defending people from police brutality? The CIA went in, infiltrated the organization and murdered/arrested its leaders. What happened when the Soviet Union overthrew the Czarist regime? (which, by the way, no one opposed and which was much more autocratic than Stalin) We sent spies and convinced people to give up the whole socialism thing. We placed sanctions, started wars, bombed peasants, spread disease, killed world leaders and put in the ones we liked (this would later backfire), we armed jihadists and stopped protestors.

"Socialism failed?" That's a very disingenuous statement. It didn't fail of its own merits. We pulled it down, fought against it hard, and they, being the weaker, poorer countries (as it is the feudal, colonized countries which rose up in revolution) failed for the time being. But Marxism isn't short-sighted. History will go on and we will see.

Small communes didn't fail because they were unsustainable. They failed because the State marched in and told people to pack their stuff.

This was the case in Germany. But the USSR did have a majority who were peasants. Whether they sided with the Bolsheviks or the Mensheviks more is irrelevant. The Bolsheviks were had a platform which would help the peasantry more

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 17:04:07 2015 No.6188845

>>6188702
I cited nih.us.gov.

You didn't even read what I cited and you automatically assume I cited something biased in my favor. It was a report on malnutrition, which I don't deny. Man, you reactionary capitalists sure are difficult to discuss with.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 17:20:51 2015 No.6188919

>>6188808
None of the famines you cited were due to capitalism though.

>Trial and error is an important part in empiricist, materialist Marxist thought. But what happens when the trial didn't happen correctly? It's like testing the theory of gravity by launching a bunch of rockets into space. "Oh would you look at that! Gravity isn't so certain after all!" says the casual, uninformed observer. But they don't know what rockets are or what gravity is.
What? That's the worst example I've ever heard. Why would gravity not be certain if you launched rockets? You do know that the trajectory of rockets is calculated very precisely thanks to the laws of physics?

>What happened when the Black Panther Party (Maoists) rose up and started feeding children and defending people from police brutality? The CIA went in, infiltrated the organization and murdered/arrested its leaders.
The black panthers were a terrorist organization who were monitored by the CIA, like any terrorist organization.

>What happened when the Soviet Union overthrew the Czarist regime?
The russian empire became an even bigger shithole.
>(which, by the way, no one opposed and which was much more autocratic than Stalin)
You cannot be serious. The tsarist secret police was very small, so small in fact that it was very easy to escape from the gulag.
There's a statistic that I like to cite : in the 19th century, roughly 3000 people were killed in the Russian Empire for political crimes. During Stalin's great purge, the death rate was 1000 executions every day (and this lasted for two years)

>We sent spies and convinced people to give up the whole socialism thing. We placed sanctions, started wars, bombed peasants, spread disease, killed world leaders and put in the ones we liked (this would later backfire), we armed jihadists and stopped protestors.
You're going into "rabid lunatic" territory here, my friend. Be careful, if you want to be taken seriously.

>"Socialism failed?" That's a very disingenuous statement. It didn't fail of its own merits. We pulled it down, fought against it hard, and they, being the weaker, poorer countries (as it is the feudal, colonized countries which rose up in revolution) failed for the time being. But Marxism isn't short-sighted. History will go on and we will see.
Yeah, we'll see North Korea rise and become the world's greatest country. Lmao, get a grip on reality. Socialism failed because it's a shitty system, not because of imaginary saboteurs.

>Small communes didn't fail because they were unsustainable. They failed because the State marched in and told people to pack their stuff.
They haven't lasted long enough for us to be able to draw conclusions. All they did in their short lives was execute people.

cont.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 17:21:52 2015 No.6188926

>>6188809
>>6188919
>This was the case in Germany. But the USSR did have a majority who were peasants. Whether they sided with the Bolsheviks or the Mensheviks more is irrelevant. The Bolsheviks were had a platform which would help the peasantry more
Yeah, that's why the Bolsheviks led a war against the peasantry and led to the deaths of millions of peasants.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 18:25:52 2015 No.6189261 File: 24 KB, 502x391, 1282330194765.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6188919 >None of the famines you cited were due to capitalism though.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 18:27:07 2015 No.6189271

>>6188919
You missed my point about rockets and gravity. Of course the laws of physics comes into play, and of course rockets don't disprove gravity. But say you're completely ignorant of both gravity and rockets and you see one taking off while someone tells you "everything that goes up must come down. There is a force you can't feel which keeps things in place and draws them together."

You are the person ignorant of rockets and gravity (socialism and historical materialism) and I'm here trying to explain that gravity (Marxism) is real and we need to only test it again and explain exactly what a rocket (the USSR) is.

The Black Panther Party was a political party which did more feeding and educating than self-defense. The U.S government feared it because it was socialist.

>Russia industrialized and began space travel when before it was an agricultural imperial, dump. It seriously didn't get better in any way? Hmm...

There was less government control of people, but more government control of resources, which lead many to starve.

>All of these things can be proven. Did we not use Agent Orange? Did we not carpet bomb Cambodia? Did we not send troops to Vietnam unnecessarily? Did we not place sanctions on the DPRK and Cuba, hoping they would become so impoverished that their governments would fall? (we caused many to starve but their governments did not fall) Did we not kill the Marxist democratically elected man by the name of Salvador Allende and in his place put in the fascist Augusto Pinochet? Did we not fund the Taliban and other jihadist groups to fight off the Soviets in Afghanistan? Did we not support the dictatorial regime of Fulgencio Batista but as soon as a socialist "dictator" like Castro stepped up, we cried foul, pointed our fingers and declared it a threat? Did we not arrest protesters here in the U.S, for the simple act of protesting? This wasn't just blacks in the Jim Crow South, this was also whites in the Yankee North during the disco era;this was in the west in Los Angeles and San Francisco and many, many other places where protesters tried to peacefully speak out against war and political corruption (Vietnam, Watergate, Reagan's complete disregard for the spread of AIDS, etc.)

>Me, a rabid lunatic? These are the facts, and unlike you, I can back these up.

North Korea won't rise up and dominate the world because we place sanctions on it, we make sure they have every disadvantage possible so they can fail and we can say "See? Socialism doesn't work!" but it's a disingenuous claim. We made sure it wouldn't work.

Most communes didn't execute people. They were largely successful (with the exception of Jonestown).

The Bolsheviks lead a war against the peasants? No, no, that's the complete opposite of what they did. They murdered the Royal family and the bourgeois and landlords of their country. They were around 90% peasants. Murdering all the peasants wouldn't of worked for the Bolshevik Party, ok?

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 18:39:39 2015 No.6189331

>>6189261
>Potato famine :
due to blight (and exacerbated by poor governmental policies)

>First nations?
You mean native americans? Smallpox killed them, not famine.

>French africa
What famines?

>Belgian Africa
Lots of chopped hands but full bellies

>German Africa
There weren't any famines in German Africa. The herero were a war casualty.

>British India
India was hampered by british mercantilist policies (i.e. anti-free market). Capitalism didn't cause indian famines, mercantilism did.

>South America
What famines?

So yeah, none of these examples compare with the famines which happened in the various communist countries during the 20th century. The charasteristic of the famines you cited is that they were due to a natural catastrophe (such as blight in Ireland).

Communists are the only people capable of creating an artificial famine out of a prosperous countryside (see : holodomor)

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 18:44:47 2015 No.6189357

>>6189271
>You missed my point about rockets and gravity. Of course the laws of physics comes into play, and of course rockets don't disprove gravity. But say you're completely ignorant of both gravity and rockets and you see one taking off while someone tells you "everything that goes up must come down. There is a force you can't feel which keeps things in place and draws them together."
>You are the person ignorant of rockets and gravity (socialism and historical materialism) and I'm here trying to explain that gravity (Marxism) is real and we need to only test it again and explain exactly what a rocket (the USSR) is.
I still don't understand the comparison.

>The Black Panther Party was a political party which did more feeding and educating than self-defense. The U.S government feared it because it was socialist.
The black panther party was a joke. A violent joke.

>There was less government control of people, but more government control of resources, which lead many to starve.
There was far more control of the people. Russia went from being around 20% serfs to 100% serfs. In the USSR, you couldn't choose your job, choose the city where you wanted to live, choose your appartment. You couldn't even choose your food. The state controlled your entire life.

>All of these things can be proven. Did we not use Agent Orange? Did we not carpet bomb Cambodia? Did we not send troops to Vietnam unnecessarily? Did we not place sanctions on the DPRK and Cuba, hoping they would become so impoverished that their governments would fall? (we caused many to starve but their governments did not fall) Did we not kill the Marxist democratically elected man by the name of Salvador Allende and in his place put in the fascist Augusto Pinochet? Did we not fund the Taliban and other jihadist groups to fight off the Soviets in Afghanistan? Did we not support the dictatorial regime of Fulgencio Batista but as soon as a socialist "dictator" like Castro stepped up, we cried foul, pointed our fingers and declared it a threat? Did we not arrest protesters here in the U.S, for the simple act of protesting? This wasn't just blacks in the Jim Crow South, this was also whites in the Yankee North during the disco era;this was in the west in Los Angeles and San Francisco and many, many other places where protesters tried to peacefully speak out against war and political corruption (Vietnam, Watergate, Reagan's complete disregard for the spread of AIDS, etc.)
I don't see what America's imperialist policies have to do with capitalism. And the Soviet Union mirrored America in that respect.

>North Korea won't rise up and dominate the world because we place sanctions on it, we make sure they have every disadvantage possible so they can fail and we can say "See? Socialism doesn't work!" but it's a disingenuous claim. We made sure it wouldn't work.
They mostly won't rise up because it's a repressive totalitarian state headed by a lunatic manchild.

cont.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Feb 24 18:45:01 2015 No.6189359

>>6189331
famines are almost always due to a natural disaster, an intentionally poor management and/or a war, i don't know any which was intentionally directed except those during the sieges of cities. holodomor wasn't more intentional than the ireland famine

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Feb 24 18:46:36 2015 No.6189366 >>6189357 >In the USSR, you couldn't choose your job, choose the city where you wanted to live, choose your appartment. You couldn't even choose your food. The state controlled your entire life. lolwhat

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 18:47:07 2015 No.6189369

>>6189271
>>6189357
>The Bolsheviks lead a war against the peasants? No, no, that's the complete opposite of what they did. They murdered the Royal family and the bourgeois and landlords of their country. They were around 90% peasants. Murdering all the peasants wouldn't of worked for the Bolshevik Party, ok?
Are you serious? The countryside was in a state of constant rebellion during Stalin's attempt of collectivization. Stalin created a punitive famine in retaliation.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Feb 24 18:47:36 2015 No.6189374 btw the serfdom was abolished somewhere in 1860s

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 18:48:32 2015 No.6189381 >>6189359 The holodomor is a textbook example of an intentional and man-made famine. You guys are worse than holocaust deniers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 18:55:12 2015 No.6189417 >>6189381 Stalin himself ordered that aid be sent to the Ukraine and other Soviet Republics. The British blockaded aid to Ireland during the famine and continued to take from the farmers well after the famine was in effect. So, no.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Feb 24 18:57:20 2015 No.6189430

>>6189369
i hope it's no what they teach you in the school

there were several peasant rebellions during ~the civil war and for a some time after it ended in the early 20s (way before stalin became the leader of the state) where peasants were against the bolsheviks, actually a few of them were against everybody and especially jews, nestor makhno is one of the most famous such peasant anarchist leaders, antonov is one of the most known anti-bolshevik peasant leaders, but there was barely any rebellion during the collectivization which was in 30s, also most of peasants supported the bolsheviks in the civil war and later due to their good propaganda

stalin creating 'a punitive famine' is an utter bullshit

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 19:00:27 2015 No.6189447

>>6189357
>rocket = USSR
>gravity = dialectical materialism/Marxism
>observer = you
>"it's going up, not coming down. Therefore x is wrong because of y." BUT IT ISN'T. It's 1 exception and it can be explained.

>The Black Panther Party for Self-Defense
>"For Self-Defense"
>mfw protecting themselves against lynch mobs and racist cops during the 1960s makes them "violent."

>it was like The Hunger Games? Dude, please, this is just plain wrong. There are legitimate things to criticize, but it isn't this.

>The USSR didn't go as far as we did. But even then, Soviets aren't the only socialists/communists there are. What if I'm a Maoist post-Sino-Soviet Split? I can admit the error of both imperialist states against the 3rd world. Now what? (**note: I said "what if")

>once again, I ask for evidence of this totalitarianism. As far as I know, they have 4 major parties and elections every 6 years.

ΟΥΤΙΣ Tue Feb 24 19:03:52 2015 No.6189463

>>6189430
>stalin creating 'a punitive famine' is an utter bullshit
Yeah, but the lie that he did is partially his own fault for fudging the numbers on how much grain was harvested (or at least putting so much pressure on the people below him that they fudged the numbers), which of course made it look like he could have stopped the famine by just distributing the grain.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 19:06:03 2015 No.6189469 >>6189463 >fudged you're a conservative, aren't you? e.e

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Feb 24 19:08:58 2015 No.6189488 >>6189463 it definitely can be blamed on the bad management on his and his government part, the whole collectivization was done poorly too

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 19:10:41 2015 No.6189499

>>6189447
>mfw protecting themselves against lynch mobs and racist cops during the 1960s makes them "violent."
White Americans are literally retarded; they deny any and all responsibility for their group's history but start talking about negros/non-whites with guns feeding poor kindergarten kids and they start screaming about "violence".

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 19:19:35 2015 No.6189546

>>6189463
There's pretty good evidence they could have stopped the famine by distributing the grain. The grain that reached the Ukraine should have stopped the famine.

Their capacity to distribute grain was far below their desire, probably culpably so due to the late NEP and early 5YP's destruction of rural distribution networks.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 19:21:02 2015 No.6189553

>>6189499
**some** white Americans. I can see it coming. Some white American is going to say "stop with the white guilt" or something along those lines. And I can understand. But they should too.

And they should look at the circumstances of the era before declaring the Black Panthers were "terrorists."

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 19:22:33 2015 No.6189567 >>6189499 >>6189553 I'm not even american, kek.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 19:23:44 2015 No.6189573 >>6189567 But in fact I do support the goals of the black panthers. I wish blacks could have their own country, and whites theirs. Even better would be for blacks to go back to Africa.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 19:27:49 2015 No.6189589 >>6184745 >the US does it too so that makes it OK when other police state shitholes follow suit I will never understand this "thinking."

>>	ΟΥΤΙΣ Tue Feb 24 19:28:07 2015 No.6189591 >>6189546 I think they tried, that grain exports suddenly dropped to below 1% in the year of the famine makes it look like there was serious effort.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 19:58:29 2015 No.6189770

>>6189589
I said that they have labor camps as an alternative to what we have, which is worse. Labor camps actually punish prisoners, they don't give them a little clubhouse to hang out with other inmates at the taxpayer's expense. I never said "it's ok because we do it too." I meant "it's ok because nothing is wrong with forced labor camps for prisoners who legitimately did something wrong."

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 25 00:26:06 2015 No.6190763 Bumping this for science (scientific socialism :3)

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 25 00:27:10 2015 No.6190767 >>6189573 This was already tried and failed, it's called Liberia.

Anonymous Wed Feb 25 00:38:14 2015 No.6190801

>>6186007
>The DPRK is socialist, not communist yet.
No true scotsman. You insects really are incapable of any wrong, aren't you?

>>6188332
The left are internationalist. The Nazis were in favour of redistributing the planet's total resources among Aryans. I think the usual word for this is "imperialism," or maybe just "robbery."

Not that socialists have a problem with robbery, so long as the people doing it are poor, dirty, or ethnic.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 25 00:42:59 2015 No.6190822 File: 17 KB, 250x330, chembarassing.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6190801 >>The DPRK is socialist, not communist yet. >No true scotsman. bruh

Anonymous Wed Feb 25 01:21:15 2015 No.6190914

>>6190822
Fluh.
Muh.
Guh.
Sounding more intelligent than usual, pinko.
Every time a communist regime collapses into ruin, it apparently doesn't count because they weren't the utopia they were planning to be. Obviously we should give them another country to destroy.

Anonymous Wed Feb 25 01:21:15 2015 No.6190915

>>6190801
Define your terms. What is socialism, what is communism, what is social-democratic reform, and what is capitalism? Before we play chess, we must know what pieces we are using.

By definition, The USSR, Cuba, China, The DPRK, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, East Germany, etc., were all socialist, not communist.

Communism = stateless + classless society; no capital is used

Marxist-Leninist Socialism = centralized state with a vanguard worker's party, capital is used, class is almost completely eliminated and it is in the process, the transition phase towards communism. Communism was never achieved because we need to have a global majority of socialist states. If a country gave up its statehood right now, it'd get invaded by some capitalist or socialist force.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 25 01:23:15 2015 No.6190923 >>6190915 Yes, yes, and even though several apocalyptic cults have not predicted the apocalypse accurately, so we should just give the next one the benefit of the doubt. Just in case, because the end times and the utopia to come are serious business.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 25 01:26:37 2015 No.6190930 >>6190915 >Communism = stateless + classless society; no capital is used A.k.a. "post-scarcity society". 'Communism' is a swear word in the USA, use the rebranded politically-correct version of that word: "post-scarcity society".

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 25 01:33:23 2015 No.6190938 >>6190930 The only cure for scarcity of supply is scarcity of demand, AKA culling. I would be OK with this in the form of making the third world infertile.

Anonymous Wed Feb 25 01:39:35 2015 No.6190957

>>6190930
>A.k.a. "post-scarcity society".
there is a difference though, the post-scarcity society is deemed to be possible only when the means of production will be improved so much that there will literally be almost no scarcity, hence it's named so, while communism claims that it can create the fair distribution of goods earlier that this post-scarcity society becomes possible

Anonymous Wed Feb 25 01:39:52 2015 No.6190958

>>6190923
but this isn't religious dogma that can be tossed aside. Marxism is not a dogma, it's a science. There IS a crisis inherent in capitalism that needs to be solved if you don't want the world to go down the "evil path of socialism" you so fear.

>1. Overproduction

Under capitalism, we have overproduction, thus less workers are needed, thus unemployment, outsourcing, etc. Products go to waste, they have an artificial price, etc. What happens when we find ways where everything is free? What if someday someone builds a Tesla tower and we no longer need to pay our light bill if it could be free? GMO foods are also providing an excess in food production. AND YET THERE'S STARVATION.

>2. Concentration of Capital

Under capitalism (as with any competition), you end up with someone winning. If capitalism is a race, the crisis of capitalism is the finish line. Capitalism has the tendency to have money eventually concentrate itself into smaller and smaller hands, until you're left with a small elite, a 0.00001% that controls almost everything. This leads to money getting into government, an oligarchy (what we have right now), and then eventually corporatism/fascism, and then a revolution against that oppression (when it becomes too great).

You talk about the failure of socialism, but what about the failure of capitalism for millions of poor, starving people? Of hard workers who don't get what they deserve? Does capitalism work for them? Does it trickle down?
There's a crisis happening. What will be done?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 25 02:47:17 2015 No.6191125 >>6190957 We have been post-scarcity since agriculture. Scarcity is the result of class society.

Advanced search
Text to find
Subject [?]Search by post subject. Leave empty for any.
Username [?]Search for user name. Leave empty for any user name.
Tripcode [?]Search for tripcode. Leave empty for any.
Email [?]Search by email. Leave empty for any.
Filename [?]Search by image filename. Leave empty for any.
From Date [?]Enter what date to start searching from. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
To Date [?]Enter what date to start searching until. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
Image hash
Search in	All Posts OPs Only
Deleted posts	Show all posts Show only deleted posts Only show non-deleted posts
Internal posts	Show all posts Show only internal posts Show only archived posts
Order	New posts first Old posts first
Capcode	All Posts Only by Users Only by Mods Only by Admins Only by Developers
Results	Posts Threads
Action	[ Simple ]