Are there any novels that don't romanticise higher education? With the exception of the Gambler, the Mark Wahlberg movie, I've never come across any media that has come close to reflecting my complete dislike of university.

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Anonymous Mon Feb 23 11:31:55 2015 No.6183080 [Reply] [Original]

Are there any novels that don't romanticise higher education? With the exception of the Gambler, the Mark Wahlberg movie, I've never come across any media that has come close to reflecting my complete dislike of university.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 11:37:20 2015 No.6183098 >>6183080 nah.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 11:39:12 2015 No.6183104

>>6183080
>I've never come across any media that has come close to reflecting my complete dislike of university.
Way to confirm your biases, OP.

Instead of trying to justify your irrational dislike of an entire system of learning, could you give us reasons?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 11:39:13 2015 No.6183105 Stoner? In that novel, university is mostly useless politics

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 11:40:22 2015 No.6183108 Pnin. Basically this >>6183105

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 11:40:44 2015 No.6183114 People either find college effective and use their education to write well, or haven't had the experience, and won't bother writing about it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 11:42:14 2015 No.6183120 >>6183105 Except for Stoners actual love for education/teaching. He represents what a professor should be I suppose

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 11:45:18 2015 No.6183127

>>6183080
>Are there any novels that don't romanticise higher education?
Millions, most of the novels you've read. But I assume you mean are there any novels that de-romanticise or critique higher education. In which case I don't know any.

Why do you dislike university? Have you been there? What country did you go to university in? Because so far, I think it's pretty sweet. You get to talk to people who read the same as you have, and your teachers are actually knowledgeable in their field for once.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 11:49:43 2015 No.6183145 >>6183127 >You get to talk to people who read the same as you have OP didn't specify what kind of university >your teachers are actually knowledgeable in their field for once Only usually, but they aren't necessarily interested in teaching it

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 11:57:10 2015 No.6183165

>>6183080

Lucky Jim by Kingsly Amis is actually about somebody actively hating the university they're employed by.

Pnin, which depicts the university as sort of charmingly insipid, and Nabokov in general. You can even see Lolita as a kind of indictment of humanist education - Humbert Humbert, in total command of the classics, of French, and even of some criticism, who is also a teacher, still does what he does and just uses his education to justify it. It doesn't give him perspective.

Muriel Spark satirizes a lots of educated and arts types. The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie is about a figure in lower education and her students, but is easily applied. Momento Mori is all about age-ed belles lettres types and writers.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:06:35 2015 No.6183181 >>6183080 Are you Dutch, or German?

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:12:33 2015 No.6183196

OP here.

>>6183104

Maybe I phrased myself wrong. I've seen a lot of movies and read a lot of books that treat university as some kind of magical place - Boyhood, Good Will Hunting, Wonder Boys, that sort of thing - and I'm not asking for something to confirm my negative opinion, I'd just like to see something with an opposite opinion, particularly one that matches my own.

>>6183127

I'm in my final year and it's basically been three years of lecturers who would rather be doing research and stuff than teaching and students who are there just because that's what you do coming out of school. There's been a real sense of obligation to the whole thing and, this year in particular, there's been a big push to get people to do a masters because the students don't know what to do next with their lives (not like I do) and the university wants to rinse more money out of us.

I've never read or seen anything where university has been described like this - it's always some magical place, and I'm sure it can be for a lot of students, but I feel very ripped off by the whole thing.

>>6183165

Thanks. I'll look into them. Nabokov especially.

>>6183181

English.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:14:29 2015 No.6183205 >>6183104 >irrational dislike of an entire system of learning his reason against higher education is likely more compelling than the majority who are for higher education

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:18:17 2015 No.6183215

>>6183196
>There's been a real sense of obligation to the whole thing and, this year in particular, there's been a big push to get people to do a masters because the students don't know what to do next with their lives (not like I do) and the university wants to rinse more money out of us.

Definitely read Lucky Jim.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:20:44 2015 No.6183216

>>6183205
>petitio principii
>baseless argument
>loaded with bias

The fuck? Are you anti-intellectual in that glib right-wing way (used as a means to oppress the poor more), just dumb and proud, or are you a slightly-educated narcissist who thinks he could have taught himself everything?

Maybe in the US where your education system is pathetically for-profit, could I see an argument against everyone going to college to do irrelevant or unimportant things, but even at the most basic level, college should teach a form of critical thinking which benefits society at learge -- what doesn't benefit society is student debt and anti-intellectualism born out of distatse for a commodifiation of education.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:41:35 2015 No.6183257

>>6183080

>I'm in my final year and it's basically been three years of lecturers who would rather be doing research and stuff than teaching and students who are there just because that's what you do coming out of school. There's been a real sense of obligation to the whole thing and, this year in particular, there's been a big push to get people to do a masters because the students don't know what to do next with their lives (not like I do) and the university wants to rinse more money out of us.

I've never read or seen anything where university has been described like this - it's always some magical place, and I'm sure it can be for a lot of students, but I feel very ripped off by the whole thing.

This can be partly explained by the fact that most of these are relatively recent developments in higher education. The generation that experiences University like this isn't writing their good books yet.

I wouldn't be suprised if we see a huge amount of this kind of literature being released in the coming two decades.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:44:17 2015 No.6183266 >>6183216 jesus christ, this is pure ideology

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:47:13 2015 No.6183274 >>6183266 Great refutation. If you don't think you live within ideology you're just hopelessly deluded.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:49:31 2015 No.6183287

>>6183216
>or are you a slightly-educated narcissist who thinks he could have taught himself everything?

Well, I kinda did so. I wasn't attending lectures, I learned everything from books and scripts. Maybe it's different if you study humanities, since you need someone to judge you writing and so. In STEM literally the only worthwile thing were laboratory exercises.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:52:47 2015 No.6183301 File: 91 KB, 640x640, 1424382849909.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6183274 If you don't X you're Y That's what the NAZIS did anon. The NAZIS.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 12:59:33 2015 No.6183331

>>6183196
>I'm in my final year and it's basically been three years of lecturers who would rather be doing research and stuff than teaching and students who are there just because that's what you do coming out of school. There's been a real sense of obligation to the whole thing and, this year in particular, there's been a big push to get people to do a masters because the students don't know what to do next with their lives (not like I do) and the university wants to rinse more money out of us.

I do agree that it feels rather arbitrary and forced sometimes, and in the end, it does come down to the cliche that you're there for the paper to show to a future employer you're not a moron, but I haven't had the impression that my lecturers don't care about lecturing, or my teachers about teaching, luckily.

I'm not from the states, where uni money grabbing is huge, but sometimes I do wonder why I pay 400 euros per term after I've had a shite compulsory course. Still, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I can't talk to most of my (I guess former, nowadays) friends about anything that actually interests me, and at uni I can. In fact, it's almost all we do, so the social part is what I like best about it.

But once again, I agree that it feels a bit forced, but you gotta do what you gotta do. I actually want to be a college/uni teacher in a few years, so that should be interesting.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:01:54 2015 No.6183341

>>6183331
Most people also like to ignore that university is there for networking - you are in the same room as a ton of your future colleagues, if you're not using the clubs etc. you're putting obstacles into your own path.

I've met many people at university I've later written scientific publications with.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:02:07 2015 No.6183342 >>6183301 >That's what the NAZIS did Tussing giant pizzas to sleep ? Those guys were more fucked up that I ever imagined.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:03:03 2015 No.6183345

>>6183301
Reductio ad Hitlerum.

You're being absolutist. "If you don't X you're Y" equations work in a lot of instances -- e.g. if you don't want black people to have the same rights as whites, you're racist.

If you're going to try and weasle out of an argument with a weak attempt to point out a logical fallacy, try harder.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:06:13 2015 No.6183356

>>6183287
You and OP are conflating the negatives and positives of higher education -- negatives like the for-profit model.

Higher education is guided learning -- Plato guided Aristotle and thereby saved him many wasted hours reading lesser works -- of course someone can go visit those lesser works later, but guided learning gives focus.

You cannot brand all guided learning as didacticism -- to do so is myopic. It shows that you have a chip on your shoulder and that you think you're a special snowflake.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:08:29 2015 No.6183365 File: 105 KB, 640x640, ayyy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6183342 AND I HAVE PROOF also goebbels had tits

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:09:03 2015 No.6183367 >>6183080 Don't worry OP, the average person including the educated ones do enough for anti-intellectualism. Guess this is the fate of democracy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:10:46 2015 No.6183377 >>6183356 Would I be correct in assuming students go out of their way not to speak to you?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:11:08 2015 No.6183378 >>6183205 >his reason against higher education is likely more compelling than the majority who are for higher education Don't worry, I am sure yours isn't with that punctuation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:12:31 2015 No.6183385 >>6183377 Ah, ad hominem to make himself feel better. Over-defensiveness and smugness speaks for itself, mate.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:14:37 2015 No.6183394 >>6183377 Only insufferable know-it-alls, like you and OP, would dismiss all higher education.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:25:31 2015 No.6183434 >>6183385 >>6183394 O, but I am not one of those anons. Just the impression I got from your posts. (hey, here's a tip: when their eyes start to twitch? they're falling asleep. Yes, even standing right in front of you)

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:33:41 2015 No.6183465 >>6183080 The Secret Glory by Arthur Machen is quite critical of the whole English college system, as far as I remember. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/35637/35637-h/35637-h.htm

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:39:04 2015 No.6183482

>>6183331

I feel like this is the dumbest thing I could possibly ask but do you ever actually show an employer your degree? With graduation coming up, there have been a lot of emails selling us stuff and a few have been frames for a degree (between £7.99 and £29.99) and surely, once you've got it framed, you can't take that to an interview.

As for the social aspect, none of my fellow students have ever shown any interest in the subject. In conversation, several have mentioned that they're just there to have fun for three years and get out with a 2:2 or something and move on. Being there to enjoy yourself is fine to a degree but when a lot of people show no interest in the course, I don't see the point and it's a detriment to the experience.

>>6183356

Comparing Plato and Aristotle to my experience seems absolutely insane. To apply a teacher/student relationship to the lecturer of my main subject and myself, they read powerpoint to me for two hours per week and only have an hour of office time, which I haven't had the ability to use at all this year because he's always already booked.

>>6183394

I didn't dismiss all higher education. You shouldn't call others know-it-alls if you aren't going to read the thread.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:50:34 2015 No.6183513

>>6183482
>To apply a teacher/student relationship to the lecturer of my main subject and myself, they read powerpoint to me for two hours per week and only have an hour of office time, which I haven't had the ability to use at all this year because he's always already booked.
Don't you have student advisors, junior professors, or anyone else?

If your criticism of higher education is down to clerical issues, then just fuck off. You're making anti-intellectual arguments because your college is badly run.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:51:57 2015 No.6183515

>>6183434
>hey, here's a tip: when their eyes start to twitch? they're falling asleep. Yes, even standing right in front of you
A tip from personal experience, I'm sure.
Your write so well on it as you're projecting. How childish to argue in the way you are -- people like you conflate arrogance and know-it-allism with confidence.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 13:55:05 2015 No.6183522

>>6183513
>student advisors
Not that I'm aware of.

>junior professors
They take tutorials, which is an hour per week and have no office hours.

In what way am I making anti-intellectual arguments? Everything I've said has been strictly from my point of view alone. It sounds like you have greatly misconstrued this thread.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:00:31 2015 No.6183534 >>6183080 >Posting an NWR trainwreck >Mentioning a shitty mark Wahlberg movie >>>/tv/

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:01:09 2015 No.6183536
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http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_chicago/2015/02/university_speech_codes_students_are_children_who_must_be_protected.single.html

>Most liberals celebrate these developments, yet with a certain uneasiness. Few of them want to apply these protections to society at large. Conservatives and libertarians are up in arms. They see these rules as an assault on free speech and individual liberty. They think universities are treating students like children. And they are right. But they have also not considered that the justification for these policies may lie hidden in plain sight: that students are children. Not in terms of age, but in terms of maturity. Even in college, they must be protected like children while being prepared to be adults.

When did you realize the universities must be destroyed?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:01:22 2015 No.6183537 File: 59 KB, 652x335, 1224652075487.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6183378 what punctuation is there not counting from the space between words i type as i speak though not phonetically i dont believe in your silly symbols begone

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:02:25 2015 No.6183540 >>6183080 Bukowski.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:04:36 2015 No.6183547 File: 25 KB, 544x400, 1350765859893.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6183080 Harry Potter

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:04:40 2015 No.6183548 File: 25 KB, 300x300, 5968872.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6183536 >americucks paying $60,000 a year to be treated like children psyche, I'm in that very position and it's a horrible horrible feel

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:12:33 2015 No.6183575 File: 118 KB, 680x907, Fedora'd Master.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >I WENT TO THE SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS AND THE UNIVERSITY OF LIFE, MAN!! >I TRANSCEND YOUR INSITUTIONS -- WIKIPEDIA TELLS ME ALL I NEED, ALONG WITH JOE ROGAN PODCASTS.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:14:59 2015 No.6183589 File: 322 KB, 416x431, 1416545075143.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6183575 >I spent 6 figures for a worthless degree in dinduology and now I can't find a job that pays above minium wage!

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:17:17 2015 No.6183604 File: 127 KB, 331x337, Classy Paulie Blassie.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6183589 >In America In proper countries, higher education is free. Get on our level.

Douchebag cunt faggot asshole !JbFxwYeP2o Mon Feb 23 14:19:26 2015 No.6183616

>>6183536
The first commenter makes a good point. My grandmother went to ASU in the 40's. She lived in a one-sex dorm and students were barred from fucking. Of course it happened, but this idea of "freedom!" is burger-in-mouth retarded

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:22:29 2015 No.6183624 >>6183616 It was probably all the college could do to keep her from riding every cock on the third floor

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:26:12 2015 No.6183644 >>6183604 Only higher education? I don't understand why anyone should be charged for education at any point in their life. A nation should be investing in its citizens, for fuck's sake.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:28:26 2015 No.6183656 >>6183644 I guess that other anon said "higher education" because public schools are still free in the US still

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:29:06 2015 No.6183658 >>6183196 boo hoo do you feel betrayed by the Hollywood movies? are you going to cry because life isn't Ferris Bueller's Day Off?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:35:24 2015 No.6183676 >>6183080 What the Gambler are you talking about? I don't remember anything negative about education in the Dostoyevsky novel.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:36:28 2015 No.6183684

>>6183341
Maybe, but although I like academia and most of the people there, I'm not a fan of the clubs. Mostly because they're filled with ''dude, I drank so many beers last night'' people, and that's not even counting the fraternities. I don't have the money nor the desire to get wasted every weekend and live that part of ''the student's life'', which is not to say that if I had money and friends that did, I wouldn't enjoy it, but I've already done my share of clubbing before uni anyways (started uni at 21)
>>6183482
Ah, yes, the UK is incredibly different. UK uni is a social thing from what I've heard, it's a drink and do drugs while dodging STD's thing, because it's essentially accessible for everyone, or at least a large part of the population. (I've looked it up, it's like 40-50%)

Where I'm from (Netherlands), only 20% of people are even eligible for university, the rest are simply not smart enough by our high school standards. So simply being at uni is an achievment of sorts, which means that people are a lot more careful about their choices when it comes to courses. There are no 2:1 or 2:2 1:1, whatever you have over there either. You pass or you don't. You can get some honorary titles for defending your thesis (cum laude and the likes) but that's about it. Because Dutch uni students are on average smarter than most other countries (simply by accessibility) the people are often actually interested in what they're studying. Which is great, because I, for instance, study history, and you can have endless fun discussions on any topic in history to get to know eachother's prejudices, personalites and the likes.

Because of the eligibillity demands, a university degree here means a lot to employers, because by simply having one you can show that you're (statistically!) ''smarter'' than a vast majority of the population.

I don't think you ever really show your diploma while looking for jobs, but I think they do need a copy or something if it's a proper requirement for the job, but then I don't actually own one, so I wouldn't know.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:41:04 2015 No.6183704

>>6183684
After rereading that, I kind of sound like a knob who is awefully full of himself, and to be sure, I do pride myself on getting to uni, because I started at the lowest level of education (for Dutchfags: vmbo-tl), but I didn't mean to sound cocky or arrogant.

(fun fact: when we started our first year, the first speech by the rector of the humanities started with ''You are the elite of this country, the future leaders yadayadayada'' It's quite an elitist bunch.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:42:54 2015 No.6183708 >>6183515 >-- >know-it-allism >>>/[spolier]out[/spoiler]

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:43:25 2015 No.6183709 >>6183684 What do the other 80% do? Do the Netherlands have a super tiny upper and middle class and huge lower class then?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:44:15 2015 No.6183713 >>6183708 >tfw I fucked up >>>/out/ for me I'm making this board so much better

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:44:48 2015 No.6183716 >>6183644 No, all education is free in most European countries, except the backwards ones -- ahem the UK.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:46:46 2015 No.6183729

>>>6183604

>In proper countries, higher education is free.

Dumbest statement in the thread so far.
If its free, then who payed for the buildings?
who is paying the lecturer and where did that money come from? Who bought your textbooks?
Ever heard of something called a 'free lunch'?

People like you are the reason socialism and communism keep failing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:48:51 2015 No.6183741 >>6183536 What a horrifying piece of trash that article is.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:49:21 2015 No.6183744 >>6183365 fukken saved

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:55:53 2015 No.6183777

>>6183684

Holy shit are you deluded or what?

I hate to burst your bubble here but nobody gives a shit about a bachelor in history man. 33.6% of all adults in working age have enjoyed higher education in the Netherlands, and the number is rising fast.
We also DO in fact have a scale just like the Americans. Where they have a GPA we have our 10 point scale, and I promise you there is a difference between a 6/10 and a 9/10 average. Your future employer will care about this. Well yours wont but that's because there are no jobs for people who studied history.

Sadly, in the Netherlands higher education has become as much of a joke as it has anywhere else.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 14:58:23 2015 No.6183786

>>6183716

Well I'm pretty sure I'm paying €1600+ a year to go to University. Besides that I also purchase books and have to provide for my living costs.
Oh and in case you didn't realise, somebody is paying taxes to fund your education.
Guess who's gonna be paying for the education of kids 20 years from now?

Nowhere in the world is education free, at best your payments are deferred to a point in life where you are more affluent.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:01:20 2015 No.6183801

>>6183786
>Guess who's gonna be paying for the education of kids 20 years from now?
Somebody else is paying for (the bulk of) your education right now, and once you start working, you'll be giving others the opportunity to get an education. Don't you think that's a good system?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:01:22 2015 No.6183802 >>6183786 >Guess who's gonna be paying for the education of kids 20 years from now? It won't be me because in 20 years I'll live under a bridge

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:02:20 2015 No.6183806 mfw in england and have to pay £9000 a term (or is it a year) for fucking university and if you don't go to oxford or cambridge you might as well give up on law

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:05:12 2015 No.6183828

>>6183801

>Somebody else is paying for (the bulk of) your education right now, and once you start working, you'll be giving others the opportunity to get an education.

yes that's exactly what I am saying

>Don't you think that's a good system?

That has nothing to do with my post. I'm just refuting the idea that in Europe education is somehow free and that them stupid Muricans came up with the idea of making university cost money.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:05:30 2015 No.6183831 >>6183786 >Oh and in case you didn't realise, somebody is paying taxes to fund your education. Government spending is not funded by taxes for nations with sovereign currencies.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:11:39 2015 No.6183867 >>6183831 L O L Literally the only country in the world that is potentially true for, is the USA. What do you think pays for it then?

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:28:41 2015 No.6183924

>>6183709
No, we have three main levels of education after high school.
MBO (about 40-50% of people)
This is just your regular work, hairdressers, car-mechanics, lower tier business managers, etc.

HBO (about 30-40%)
Basically university light, in which you don't get as much of the theoretic, but you actually get trained to be able to do something, contains a lot of internships and those things. This should get you a fine job, I'm pretty sure.

WO/University (same thing, different name)
This is where you can basically get anything you need to know on your field of study, but (at least for history) you don't actually get specifically trained to do a certain job, you just study. You can do internships and such, if you want, though, but this is basically the highest level you can get in our system (there are honours programs, which are a lot harder than regular studies, but it's still the university education + your extra stuff)

>>6183777
Oh, don't worry, I know a history degree is pointless. I study it because I like it, I was simply talking about the eligibillity for university.
(Although I'm studying to become an HBO teacher, so in that case it is actually pretty useful)
Higher education can also mean HBO, right? I just googled this a while back and it said 20%, plus my rector said it was 20% as well, or ''the elite of the country'' etc. Don't worry, I don't hold any superiority complexes or pretentions of following a ''useful'' education (though I wish everyone could, and would want to study it)

>Sadly, in the Netherlands higher education has become as much of a joke as it has anywhere else.
I wouldn't know, because I haven't been in there for 20 years, but as long as we maintain the VWO/HBO propedeuse requirement for uni, it won't be like America or Britain.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:30:04 2015 No.6183935 >>6183165 came here to say Lucky Jim. It is hilarious as well.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:44:37 2015 No.6183990 >>6183080 Unseen University.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:47:44 2015 No.6184004 >>6183080 the obvious problem with this is that the people who review books are firmly part of the academic circle, and would respond poorly to a criticism of their culture

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 15:54:38 2015 No.6184027 >>6183990 not fat enough sorry

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 16:05:22 2015 No.6184056

>>6183729
Fucking typical Yank who has been cuckholded into accepting the fact that your University fees are arbitarily high.

Also, because of your for-profit model, you have Universities pumping out neoliberals in the economic sector, as they have taken over the economic faculties of most of the top colleges. It has had a direct affect on the trajectory of the US today, just as PPE has in the UK.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 16:11:23 2015 No.6184087 >>6184056 Nice try, except that I'm Dutch. Now try refuting my points with actual arguments or facts, instead of an attack on my percieved nationality.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 16:21:34 2015 No.6184116

>>6184087
Christ. Focus on the country -- you didn't address my points.

My argument still stands -- if you open Universities up to the rules of the private sector and you allow them to inflate thier costs (and do so within an unacknowledged price cartel) then you'll end up with a wasteful system, just like the US healthcare system.

People pay an order of magnitude more for education in the US and while the US has good Universities, they're not as good as they should be relating to the price.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 16:27:00 2015 No.6184130

>>6184116

>Christ. Focus on the country -- you didn't address my points.

What the fuck is wrong with you? This is what YOU did with my post, not the other way around. Seriously, what the fuck man..

The rest of your post shows a shocking lack of understanding of basic economics. You also still seem to be under the impression that European universities are significantly cheaper than US ones. Let me repeat: the ONLY signficant difference is between WHO pays and WHEN they pay.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 16:34:33 2015 No.6184152

>>6184130
>The rest of your post shows a shocking lack of understanding of basic economics.
How is an understanding of economics relevant to pointing out how neoliberals have taken over economic higher education, you fucking imbecile? That's political economy, at most.

>You also still seem to be under the impression that European universities are significantly cheaper than US ones.
Uh, yes they are, you fucking dolt.

Oxford University
Students: 22,000
Endowment: £4.03 billion

Harvard University
Students: 21,000
Endowment: $36.4 billion

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oxford
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University

Tell me again how you're ostensibly correct?

The reason Harvard has such a high operating cost is because they operate in a free market and have decided to screw the students and pay the lecturers a fortune -- guest lecturers make a King's ransom.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 16:36:10 2015 No.6184158 >>6184152 More to add to this: http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/15/universities-are-chasing-endowments-students-expense-263140.html

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 16:38:04 2015 No.6184171 >>6184130 Dude you are loosing this one so hard. This other guy is killing you. Cmon man get back in the ring you got this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 16:41:32 2015 No.6184187 >>6184171 >>6184158 Just to prove this isn't me. Screencap incoming.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 16:46:02 2015 No.6184191 >>6184171 kek'd for the imagery.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 16:46:41 2015 No.6184195 File: 88 KB, 530x472, Screen Shot 2015-02-23 at 22.46.21.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6184187

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 17:42:42 2015 No.6184343 I've worked for two colleges in my life. They're all just businesses. Educate yourself. College is a joke.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 18:14:12 2015 No.6184507

>>6184152

You don't seem to get the point do you? Tuiton is just a fraction of what pays for Universities to operate. My point is that European universities aren't significantly cheaper, they are just mostly funded by tax income instead of direct tuition fees.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:04:40 2015 No.6184730

>>6184507
>My point is that European universities aren't significantly cheaper, they are just mostly funded by tax income instead of direct tuition fees.
And yet you've shown no data to corroborate this, and I have for the contrary.

There are no tuition fees in Germany.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:06:30 2015 No.6184739 >>6184730 >you've shown no data to corroborate this, and I have for the contrary. No you haven't. You've only shown a difference in tuition fees, something nobody is contending. And again you show you miss the fucking point.

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:14:27 2015 No.6184762

>>6184739
Ignorance is bliss

>With a sprawling $4.2 billion annual budget, $34 million in overspending may appear relatively insignificant. But Harvard has been under the microscope of US debt-rating agencies since the financial crisis. To keep its AAA ratings, the university pledged not to borrow any more money after its debts peaked at $6.3 billion in June 2011. Total borrowing has since declined to $5.7 billion.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/11/09/harvard-operating-deficit-rises-million/Ek9Usxk19Ih9bZ3znXV3EI/story.html

>University of Oxford total annual expenditure: £1.1bn ($1.6bn)

http://www.ox.ac.uk/about/organisation/finance-and-funding

Care to dig your hole any deeper?

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:17:39 2015 No.6184774

>>6184762
And, they have nearly the exact same amount of students and are neck-and-neck in the global university rankings.

The problem, just like the US healthcare system, is due to the application of laissez-faire capitalism.

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings-articles/world-university-rankings/top-universities-world-201415

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:24:05 2015 No.6184789

>>6183616
I agree, and I think we should extend this idea to employment too. Really, what are employees but children? They don't know much about the company they work for, much less their field as a whole. Only managers need to be able to make decisions. All this talk about worker rights and pay gap needs to be dropped at the entryway.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:46:55 2015 No.6184888 File: 283 KB, 640x946, the-catcher-in-the-rye-cover-56ad87b65e91ecee30641f4d60fda347.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6183080

Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:54:10 2015 No.6184915

>>6184774
Once in a red moon there comes an idiot; so packed full of nothing but himself - a neat, equally strung, ribbon tying him altogether. He'd be reading and yapping about oh, this and that. Some'll be listening others, well...you get the picture. And if there's something our leader, Joseph, didn't like, it were a tall tail riding his feathers - least that's the way he saw it.
So we strung that crimson bow round his pretty revolutionary little neck. He kicked and he screamed; like a baby he bawled and sobbed to his last moments. 'Comrades, comrades' you'd hear him choking 'why are you doing this, comrades please stop you're hurting me'.

We don't get none no more; the good word purges more than blood in our party: so long as you sit still, smile and don't stop clapping.

Down with the scum .
Burn their freedom.
Stupid capitalist pigs.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:55:58 2015 No.6184919 >>6184915 Is this a meme? You got REKT, son.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:57:49 2015 No.6184931 >>6184919 Is this a meme? You got REKT, son.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 19:58:51 2015 No.6184934 >>6184931 Wow, so when you lose an argument you just resort to childishness? I've seen a lot of pathetic shit on 4chan, but this takes it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:00:37 2015 No.6184948 >>6184934 Wow, so when you lose an argument you just resort to childishness? I've seen a lot of pathetic shit on 4chan, but this takes it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:02:41 2015 No.6184961 File: 77 KB, 680x1020, Internet Loser Kid.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:03:58 2015 No.6184965 >>6184948 Your ego must be very dented to stoop this low.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:04:28 2015 No.6184967 >>6184948 (You) Your ego must be very dented to stoop this low

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:06:20 2015 No.6184974 >>6184967 You replied to the wrong comment. You can't even troll correctly. Just give up at critical thinking, anon. Go flip burgers.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:10:05 2015 No.6184989 File: 257 KB, 425x528, No son.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6184967 >>6184948 >>6184931 It makes me sad to see a man lose all self-respect like this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 20:27:00 2015 No.6185056 >>6184989 >>6184974 tips

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 23 23:59:01 2015 No.6185759 >>6183080 Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up To Me

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 00:49:15 2015 No.6185974 File: 469 KB, 480x228, 85305efdd72a102c6f368bc0627b695c.jpg.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6183624

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 02:47:25 2015 No.6186336 >tfw my class if full of 'lol random' normalfags Honestly I just want to leave, it certainly doesn't help that the first person I saw at my new university was reading the god delusion. Should have gone into law...

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 07:57:41 2015 No.6186862

>>6184762

Could you stop using such a flawed way of debating me?
Nice anecdotal evidence though. Really, showing that Harvard, the most expensive and arguably most elite university in the world, is more expensive than Cambridge you have totally proven your point.

Do you really believe you are supplying relevant data this way?

I do like that you're so desperate to win an argument on the internet. While I was having a good night's sleep, you were here geting trolled by some random dude.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 08:23:38 2015 No.6186922 >>6183624 Not cool harry, not cool.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 24 08:25:30 2015 No.6186926 >>6183624 Screwby, dawg.

Anonymous Tue Feb 24 08:46:13 2015 No.6186979

>>6183080
OP I completely understand, where I'm from distinctions and bonuses are good accreditation but they show no experience and therefore anyone who can get %50 or more are able to get a degree which is good for business because it caters to the stupid. I see university as more a tool of motivation for plebs who won't use there own time to study or advance instead.

It's ridiculous paying copious amounts of money to a system that does essentially teach you, but more so is a tool that says some interpreter said I was worthy of wasting my time with something I hate to say I'm qualified. All this for a ridiculous price and an increased but still smaller chance at a job. I'm all for people who need direction, socializing and general learning of others but it seems to me a selfish fee for socializing.

I see it as a product that might not help me where I'm wasting time/money. I'd rather gain essential experience and earn my keep in a non-corporate business or start my own business.

I see it almost as paying money to socialize and end up in a corporate political ant-scheme that you will end up hating as you discover half the stuff you learn is irrelevant and you spend most your day kissing an ass or being shitted on.

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/lit/ - Literature