/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6139756]

The Trojans are defending their homeland and the Greeks are invading for some perceived dishonor. All of the Trojans want is to keep their city safe and then we have Agamemnon saying "no baby boy still in his mother's belly, not even he escape--All Ilium blotted out." The Greeks want to commit genocide because Paris stole Menelaus's wife.

Then it seems like whenever a Greek actually kills a Trojan Homer launches into saying how their parents/wife/kids will wallow in sorrow because their kid/husband/father died on the battlefield.

Paris is at fault but the whole situation could have been handled by Menelaus either going over there to challenge him himself or just letting it go. And then there's the scene where Hector tries to comfort his wife and baby, and it's the first time we see anyone express an emotion that isn't anger or derision.

I find myself consistently hoping that the Trojans repel the Greeks off of their shores. Am I supposed to actually support the Achaeans?

[Anonymous No.6139765]

The Greeks are just using the Helen thing as an excuse to rid themselves of a rival.Who gives a fuck about some royal slut, there's power to be had.

[Anonymous No.6139877]

>>6139756
>Am I supposed to actually support the Achaeans?

Yes, because you're reading the founding myth turned poem of a warrior culture who created an identity out of a mass of conquered city-states. Is this just an elaborate "yfw persia actually existed" thread?

[Anonymous No.6139887]

>>6139756
>The Trojans are defending their homeland and the Greeks are invading for some perceived dishonor
Your first assumption: necessity is more important/admirable than honour.
>Paris is at fault but the whole situation could have been handled by Menelaus either going over there to challenge him himself or just letting it go
Many alternatives exist. But the war happened.
>And then there's the scene where Hector tries to comfort his wife and baby, and it's the first time we see anyone express an emotion that isn't anger or derision.
More doesn't necessarily mean better

[Anonymous No.6140056]

It's hilarious that they didn't find the site of Troy until recent times because the greeks blew their achievement out of proportion. Troy is way smaller than my city.

Also shows how far liberal dogma has threatened our traditional values, that youths these days consider the stories of those barbaric peoples to be more valuable than the great courageous fights of our recent ancestors in both world wars.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.6140074]

I hate to reference Nietzsche, but the Iliad is not about good vs. evil. It's about noble vs. noble. Paris is not noble, but people like Priam and Hector certainly are.

[Anonymous No.6140117]

If you're interested OP the intro to the Fagles is a good read and Knox talks about Homer's balanced view of war, both on the individual level in his action scenes and the broader level of the plot. The Iliad is of course chock-full or warrior's honor but it displays violence in relatively matter-of-fact fashion, the same way it balances the glory of the Achaeans with the tragedy of Troy. It is neither distinctly pro-war or anti-war, it is "just" a war story.

[Anonymous No.6140123]

>>6139756
>the whole situation could have been handled by Menelaus either going over there to challenge him himself
Menelaus does challenge Paris to single combat, but when Menelaus is about to win Aphrodite intervenes.

[Anonymous No.6140139]

>>6140123
Which is basically the major undercurrent of the entire story: things wouldn't be nearly as bad as they got if the gods weren't responsible.

All of the Olympians are massive dicks, even the normally level-headed ones like Athena. The only gods that are even slightly sympathetic are Apollo and Zeus. I honestly felt bad for Zeus the way Homer presents him; Homer makes you feel that even Zeus, the king of the gods and lord of the universe, must answer to Fate, and that he's just trying to make the best outcome he can out of a host of unenviable options.

[Anonymous No.6140199]

>>6140074
Are you the trip gag formerly known as omnisexual tyrannosaur

[porn addict No.6140244]

>>6140074
dude what happened to your greek course? are you still a faggot?
pls respond

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.6140251]

>>6140244
I got a three-day ban for it, so I stopped.

[Anonymous No.6140294]

>>6139756
It's a story about war without any bias.

[Anonymous No.6140299]

>>6140251
God damn even on /lit/ the mods are total faggots.

[Anonymous No.6140778]

History is normally written by the victors, telling the tale their way. But here is an epic by a Greek that allows you to wonder whether the Greeks were all that right. Pretty clever, that Homer. Maybe that's why the work has lived so long.

[Anonymous No.6140795]

>>6140056
>recent times

You what? People knew where it was for centuries if not millenia. And it still had impressive fortifications.

Also its an epic poem based on a lost time of glory, of course its 'blown up'. You have to remember, Greece at the time of Homer was pretty shitty compared to Greece at the time of the Trojan War.

[Anonymous No.6140826]

>>6140056
"The stories of these barbaric peoples" are what helped form the traditional values you're moaning on about you fucking troglodyte.

[Anonymous No.6141339]

>>6140056
8/10, had me going for a second there.

[Anonymous No.6141361]

>>6139756
>Am I supposed to actually support the Achaeans?
You are supposed to admire each individual soldier for how they choose to lead their life, while simultaneously lamenting the tragic consequences of their actions. It's about the glory of the individual, including the high costs of glory.

[Anonymous No.6143777]

The Iliad is about the wrath of Achilles. For American readers, it would be better to publish this story not under the name, Iliad, rather publish it as Wrath of Achilles: Homer's Iliad

Achilles is the greatest warrior. The gods' have given him awesome power. And he destroys those around him like a hurricane or an earthquake. His wrath is an unfortunate event which destroys the city of Troy.

Remember, without Achilles, the Achaeans would have lost the war and Troy would have survived. Achilles is the tipping point.

[Anonymous No.6144167]

>>6139756
>I find myself consistently hoping that the Trojans repel the Greeks off of their shores. Am I supposed to actually support the Achaeans?
I feel like you're not supposed to support either side. Odysseus is bro as fuck and Hector is 10/10 honorable hero would bang, but all the other major players are shitheads, even the Gods save for Athena.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.6144190]

>>6143777
I notice a lot of people fail observe that Achilles' wrath is not just destructive to the Trojans, it also is destructive to the Greeks. His wrath is set off by Agamemnon in the beginning, and the poems starts by talking about all the ACHAEANS who die because of Achilles, not the Trojans. Achilles prays for the Greeks to get slaughtered. When Patroclus dies, his wrath is simply redirected, and is extremely destructive; but how he treats the body of Hector keeps a very negative spin on his wrath, there is nothing glorious about being that petty and "rude". His anger is resolved when Priam comes to his tent, and thus the plot is concluded. But the point is that anger is extremely destructive for everyone involved, the Greeks, the Trojans, and Achilles himself.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.6144207]

>>6144167
Odysseus flees while Diomedes is desperately calling for help as he's being overwhelmed. I would say Ajax and Diomedes are more faithful to Greek values. Although in "Ajax", by Sophocles, Odysseus is shown to be extremely likable despite being self-interested, manipulative coward in contrast with the impractically brave and honorable Ajax. Euripides and Pindar, however, give very little slack to Odysseus for being so disregardful of heroic virtues like forthrightness.

[Anonymous No.6144265]

>>6144207
Right I forgot about those guys, and I wasn't saying Odysseus was heroic but he's a likeable anti-hero in most versions. My point was just that there were plenty of assholes and some good guys on both sides so it doesn't seem like the reader is supposed to cheer for either team.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.6144302]

>>6144265
Yeah, I think Odysseus was almost a "villain" (or as close as you could be to the Greeks, which is to say having base qualities), but Homer does make him extremely likable, which Pindar chides him for. Odysseus was more of an Iago, or Jack Vance's Cugel at best, in most conceptions, but Homer makes him into a likable scoundrel, even Athena herself, as much a deity of justice as Zeus, is charmed rather than angry when Odysseus makes up a bullshit story to tell her (although it might have helped that he didn't know who she was).

[Anonymous No.6144316]

>>6140056
I wonder who could be behind this post?

[Anonymous No.6145057]

>>6139756
>fagles
heh

[Anonymous No.6145070]

>>6139756
Goddamn.