/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6104614]

Have video games surpassed books in terms of story telling and character development?

[Anonymous No.6104619]

Nope.

[Anonymous No.6104629]

>>6104614
No, fuck off.

And this is comes from someone that enjoys vidya just as much as literature.
shit games

[Anonymous No.6104634]

they haven't even surpassed romantic comedies

[Anonymous No.6104635]

>Says that
>But uses trashy AAA games as an example

AAA games are the YA fiction of Video games you dork. They're always shit, no matter what.

They can't afford to not be shit so the mainstream normies will buy them and they can make back their over-inflated budgets.

[Anonymous No.6104643]

far from it. they're about the same level as mass appeal hollywood movies.

[Anonymous No.6104657]

not even close yet. it will happen though, when it stops being nerd wish fulfillment

[Anonymous No.6104661]

I have a lot of hope for the future of games as a storytelling medium but right now they're terrible. Imagine if every single book released by a major publisher was in the thriller/action or every movie from a studio was an action movie. That's the current state of videogames.

They haven't even broken out of the aesthetic ghetto yet, never mind break ground as character or narrative art.

[Anonymous No.6104700]

>>6104614
No. And because of the way the industry functions (requiring money in order to create a successful game 99.9% of the time), it will never have the breadth and intelligence that literature has to offer.

[Anonymous No.6104709]

>>6104614
The shit you play, sure haven't.

[Anonymous No.6104731]

Video games haven't even surpassed comics yet.

[Anonymous No.6104734]

>>6104731
>says the fedora wearing fellow

[Anonymous No.6104735]

>>6104734
But he is right. ;_;

[Anonymous No.6104737]

>>6104635
Non-AAA games are just as bad. Even classics like Planescape: Torment and Vampire: The Masquerade have ridiculously bad writing.

[Anonymous No.6104744]

>>6104614
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDo_k69bdxw

Relevant.

[Anonymous No.6104751]

>>6104614
No.

But the potential is real.

[Anonymous No.6104760]

>>6104751
even that isn't an example that excels within its own medium. pathologic is dialogue boxes and cutscenes, with some neat context in between

the dialogue and characters are too enigmatic for their own good, even if there is an overarching 'message'

[Anonymous No.6104764]

>>6104614

why don't they release the Last of Us for pc so adults can play it ffs

OP in answer to your question I think no, not right now, but maybe someday who knows.

[Anonymous No.6104767]

>>6104744
>vidjergaems are all about violence!
>ignorant Japanese plebs unaware of the glory of Western adventure games

[Anonymous No.6104772]

Of course. World of Warcraft is everything Nabokov wanted to achieve; it's extremely valuable aesthetically.

[Anonymous No.6104775]

>>6104767
u w8 m8

[Anonymous No.6104777]

>>6104775
Did you watch his shit nigga

[Anonymous No.6104779]

>>6104772

pretty sure Nabakov never wrote about wizards and elves

[Anonymous No.6104782]

>>6104779
you dont get lolita then

[Anonymous No.6104783]

>>6104782

what is the magic system in Lolita?
how is the pvp?

[Anonymous No.6104791]

>>6104614
No.

[Anonymous No.6104794]

>>6104614
telltale games are kinda ok.
but still, nope.

[Anonymous No.6104801]

>>6104767
its more like this.

[Anonymous No.6104802]

>>6104614
Planescape Torment.
Inquisitor.
Arguably Mass Effect.

And Morrowind, by means of immersion and potential for free story telling through the immense content in terms of lore and level design.

[Anonymous No.6104804]

>>6104802

embarrassing
back to k-mart

[Anonymous No.6104808]

>>6104802
>Mass effect
>Morrowind

Sure smells like pleb spirit.

[Anonymous No.6104819]

>>6104808
>smells like pleb spirit.
This nigga

[Anonymous No.6104832]

>>6104808
ME2 was great.

[Anonymous No.6104837]

>>6104760
The game mechanics themselves serve a great narrative function.

Though I guess it's more of a good proof of concept, with The Void representing a more refined claim to video game art.

[Anonymous No.6104839]

>>6104794
>telltale games
Consider what capabilities the medium is supposed to offer.

[Anonymous No.6104854]

>>6104802
don't get me wrong, I pee on all this Morrowind bullshit. But since we're on /lit/, I wanted to say, that The 36 Lessons of Vivec book series is actually pretty good. It has a great number of fine religious symbolism and numerology, overall worth reading.

[Anonymous No.6104860]

>>6104819
I wish kurt cobain killed himself before he made all that shitty music

[Anonymous No.6104864]

>>6104614
There is nothing more tiresome than gaming cultural cringe. All these insufferable faggots and commentators trying so hard to dissociate from "hardcore gaming" and prove that games can be just as profound as any other medium "maybe if i'm brutally reductive enough about the current state of gaming, someone will make a groundbreaking game next year that I can latch onto while it's still a novelty", all these academics, identity politicians and bureaucrats who want to mould gaming to their designs so it's full of serious vehicles for social change. All these retarded English Majors writing their theses on "storytelling in gaming!!!" thinking they are forward-thinking rebels for upsetting their perplexed professors, and shitting out thousands of pages of ink fawning over the games they like.

Even as folks appreciate that it's unfair to misrepresent and generalise about games and the people who play games, they go about perpetuating those exact negative stereotypes about some subset of "hardcore" "nerdy" "autistic" etc. gamers, so they can look good by comparison and have a high connoisseur status.

There's nothing to prove, though. Just politics to play, high/low patrician/plebian respectable/laughable, etc... to delineate, and status to acquire and lose. That's what people care about, and that's what will determine when some video game(s) stories and characters "surpass" some other medium's (a hopelessly general question that was only ever going to incite retards to prove how retarded they are).

[Anonymous No.6104867]

>>6104860
>salty hair metal fan detected

[Anonymous No.6104881]

>>6104864
give this man a medal.

[Anonymous No.6104891]

>>6104864
>All these retarded English Majors writing their theses on "storytelling in gaming!!!" thinking they are forward-thinking rebels for upsetting their perplexed professors, and shitting out thousands of pages of ink fawning over the games they like.
Fuck you man, my application of Bakhtinian theory to Bioshock was fucking flawless.

[Anonymous No.6104896]

>>6104867
I'm quoting my buddy who likes hardcore punk and whatever the fuck The Ghost Inside and NOFX are

[Anonymous No.6104908]

>>6104881
send this faggot to back to reddit

[Anonymous No.6104909]

>>6104614

[Anonymous No.6104912]

>>6104896
>NOFX, the ultimate chubby white boy with red cheeks music
>some shit metalcore band that flat out says they're "similar to As I Lay Dying"

lol tell your friend to go get some taste before shittalking Nirvana.

pic rel8d, it's ur m8

[Anonymous No.6104920]

>>6104614
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

No.

And they never will. I like video games; they're good, dumb fun. One thing they don't do well and never, ever do well, though is tell stories.

[Anonymous No.6104924]

>>6104864
>muhh sekrit club ruined by normals

is this fucking /jp/?
games are mainstream now, get over it. anyone with a percentage of interest in various art would be stoked by the potential of games as an art medium.

as I see it there are a few hinders to unique artful experiences within games:

1. The incredibly tight relationship between commerce and the creators. It's the same problem film suffers from, but at an even deeper level. That being said, if film can have both a vivid art scene and a massive commercial sector it should be possible for games as well. With Unity independent game dev has never been easier.

2. The false dichotomy of narrative vs. ludeology - it's getting better but we still have A. hardcore gamers who feel that any attempt of narrative depth is cultural imperialism (see quoted post about English majors and whatnot)
B. traditional aesthetic discourse that cannot account for narrative as a function of game rather than a polar opposite of it.

3. the aesthetic baggage due to gaming's origins. a combination of tropes from typical escapism subculture and the inherited engineering discourse due to games developing out of computer science (focus on graphics and complex mechanics as a means in itself).

[Anonymous No.6104926]

>>6104614
>games without gameplay

Pure IDEOLOGY. Fuck off game-ruining scum.

[Anonymous No.6104927]

>>6104924
>>6104864

[Anonymous No.6104932]

>>6104927
>Tumblr
:^)

[Anonymous No.6104938]

>>6104614
Sometimes.

The best games definitely have better plots than the worst books, and an average game is also better than an average book today (mainly because a lot of shit get published).

But overall, no game comes closer to good books. Videogames are relatively new and it is absurd to expect to surpass literature, which has been around for thousands of years. It may be possible in the future, but not yet.

[Anonymous No.6104939]

>>6104839
what do you mean?

[Anonymous No.6104941]

>>6104939
Telltale don't make games buddy.

[Anonymous No.6104944]

>>6104941
OP asked about story telling and character development
ttg does them well.

games are not played because of their plot and/or characters imo, therefore its a shit thread in general.

[Anonymous No.6104945]

>>6104614
A few games might've, but the last of us doesn't even come close.

Games excel in atmosphere, and often they are better than most books and films when it comes to that element, but they are hopelessly lacking when it comes to character development and, usually, storytelling. In my opinion, The Last of Us would've been a better movie in almost every way. The atmosphere of it was pretty meh, but the story was actually really compelling. Honestly, it gained almost nothing by being a video game.

[Anonymous No.6104946]

>>6104944
iyo

[Anonymous No.6104950]

>>6104946
gameplay > rest
any game designer will agree.

[Anonymous No.6104953]

>>6104950
HAHAHAHA

Bet you think dark souls is the best game.

[Anonymous No.6104956]

>>6104953
>only able to express opinion in superlatives
nvm

[Anonymous No.6104959]

>>6104950
that doesn't mean they're not played for plot or character

[Anonymous No.6104960]

>>6104950
see
>>6104744

[Anonymous No.6104961]

>>6104956
Sorry, some of us have sensibilities that go beyond tic-tac-toe in pretty colors.

[Anonymous No.6104967]

>>6104960
>some dweeb game
aight.
>>6104961
Nah you just want a escapism simulator, a game is something else.

[Anonymous No.6104970]

>>6104961
Your sensibilities are irrelevant. Video games are ultimately, well, games, and whatever artistry they have needs to be expressed through gameplay in order for them to have artistic merit as video games. Every other artistic element in the game is complementary to that.

[Anonymous No.6104978]

>>6104970
A book consists of words, yes, but it's not reducible to words. What's so hard to understand about that? Gameplay > everything else else is a nonsensical statement. Maybe you meant it occurs prior to everything else chronologically? I'm not sure how you derived a normative statement from that.

[Anonymous No.6104983]

>>6104970
Man, you have excellent opinions. Keep it up.

>>6104978
Comparing games to books is actually a good analogy for that point. Book aren't reducible to words, but the words matter. If a book has horrible prose, then the story and characters can be amazing and the end result can still be meaningless. Games are the same. The story and characters should be communicated through the gameplay, the gameplay is as much a vehicle in a game as words are in a book.

[Anonymous No.6104988]

>>6104967
>some dweeb game

[Anonymous No.6104992]

>>6104983
Did anyone anywhere in this thread argue that gameplay is irrelevant? You're strawmanning my point. Gameplay > x is a nonsensical statement because the game as a whole is an emergent property. Words only matter as far as they are part of the book in itself. In the same analogy it's not words > everything else, but rather words + everything else that is the aesthetic experience. Prose/story is false, prose IS story.

[Anonymous No.6105003]

>>6104978
The equivalent of "words" in video games would probably be game mechanics, not the entirety of gameplay.

>Gameplay > everything else else is a nonsensical statement
Though I don't agree completely with that statement either, I think I made myself clear on what I think the role of gameplay is in video games.

[Anonymous No.6105005]

>>6104614
EAGHEAHHEHEAHEAHAEHHAEHAEHAEheaHAEHEAHAEHEAHEHHEAHEAHAEHEAHEAHEAHEAHAEHEHEAHEHAEHHAEHEHEAHEHEAHEAHEAHEAHAEHEAHEAHEAHAEEAHHEA
no
>>>/v/

[Anonymous No.6105008]

>>6104938
A medium can only be good when it's still new and unconcious. When it gets into the claws of capitalism and consumerism it goes to shit under the pressure of rational instrumentality..

[Anonymous No.6105011]

>>6104992
I'm not trying to say they (gameplay and words) aren't irrelevant, but that they are key. Gameplay isn't "greater" than any other element, but it is the "vehicle" by which those elements should be developed. Games are unique in that you can develop a plot almost entirely separately from the game you are making, for example the many, many games which tell the plot purely through cutscenes.

[Anonymous No.6105012]

>>6105008
so basically you're writing off all media.

[Anonymous No.6105021]

>>6105012
Nothing will get to the level of oral tradition, so if we go at it in a hierarchial way, then YES. Most mediums are only good when even the shit that is bad is contributing. Even shovewhere was a benefit to the industry before it went too mainstream.

[Anonymous No.6105022]

>>6105011
Well it's greater simply because you can have a good video game without good music, story, characters etc. but you can't have a good video game without good gameplay (see for example countless horror games that, despite having a perfectly good horror atmosphere, completely fail at making the player afraid thanks to gameplay that makes them feel like war gods).

>Games are unique in that you can develop a plot almost entirely separately from the game you are making, for example the many, many games which tell the plot purely through cutscenes.
Yeah and those games are very often decried as expensive movies that fail to take advantage of the medium's strengths.

[Anonymous No.6105034]

>>6104970
>whatever artistry they have needs to be expressed through gameplay in order for them to have artistic merit

not really it just needs gameplay in it

[Anonymous No.6105035]

>>6104961
if your apm is under 300 you should stop talking my sluggish friend.

[Anonymous No.6105036]

>>6105008
i doubt it

[Anonymous No.6105038]

No, and they never will, since video games and traditional stories are intrinsically opposed. Video games promote interactivity. Stories are set in stone. Making a set-in-stone story is anti-interaction.

[Anonymous No.6105040]

>>6105022
>you can't have a good video game without good gameplay

untrue

[Anonymous No.6105042]

>>6104614
Haha Jesus lord, literally how? A book is inherently linear. Any video game that tries to emmulate books (which means tries to emmulate story telling in the traditional sense), is a bad video game.

[Anonymous No.6105046]

>>6105034
You missed the "as video games" at the end of that sentence.
Good gameplay makes good video games, and if it's complemented by good music, story, characters etc. then those can push the game into excellence, but those alone can't make a game good if the gameplay is lacking.

[Anonymous No.6105047]

Why are videogamers constantly trying to get everyone to take their games seriously? Is it some kind of ongoing joke?

[Anonymous No.6105049]

>>6105042
>a book is inherently linear

guess you haven't read many books

[Anonymous No.6105051]

>>6105049
"Choose your own adventure" doesn't count, champ.

[Anonymous No.6105055]

>>6105046
it wasn't necessary to add

>Good gameplay makes good video games

not at all

>but those alone can't make a game good if the gameplay is lacking.

says who?

[Anonymous No.6105057]

>>6104614
suda 51 and his earlier stuff, but nobody takes him seriously most of the time because of the occasional immature joke.

[Anonymous No.6105059]

>games
>artistic merit
Inherently oxymoronic.
Aspects of games can have artistic merit.
Soundtracks, narratives, designs, etc.
But if it's a game and the goal is for you to win, then it's cheap, utility entertainment.
Regardless of the parts of it that, in themselves, have artistic merit.

[Anonymous No.6105060]

>>6105047
If video games were accepted as art, game journalists, critics, developers and hipsters believe that it would make their job/hobby more prestigious and socially acceptable, while companies simply think they could make more money.

[Anonymous No.6105061]

>>6105059
>But if it's a game and the goal is for you to win
Very few games are like that.

[Anonymous No.6105062]

>>6105061
>Very few games are like that.
Almost every single game is like that.

[Anonymous No.6105063]

>>6105061
the name 'game' says otherwise, retard

[Anonymous No.6105064]

>>6105062
if you 'win' a novel by reaching the end of it sure yeah a lot of games are like that

[Anonymous No.6105067]

>>6105062
No. There hardly is game that people play just to win. In fact I can't think of any. The word game implies that the acitivity is enjoyable, so people play games to play games, not to win them.

[Anonymous No.6105068]

>>6105061

literally every game is like that
that's what a game is

[Anonymous No.6105069]

>>6105059
can you qualify this with like... anything? instead of just being like 'because i say so'?

[Anonymous No.6105070]

>>6105067
Huh, last time I checked the highest selling, most popular, and most developed games, saturating the entire market, were made as cheap, utility, entertainment specifically to be 'won'.

But I guess that's just me.

[Anonymous No.6105071]

>>6105069
because the very defintion of a game is about interacting with a system with a specific set of rules and trying to manipulate the system to a certain specified goal.
see: chess, football, counterstrike

[Anonymous No.6105073]

>>6105067
>In fact I can't think of any.
that's because you're severely mentally lacking or don't play games

[Anonymous No.6105074]

>>6105070
yeah that's just your dumbass interpretation of what video games are

[Anonymous No.6105076]

>>6105069
>can you qualify this with like... anything?
It's literally the definition of a 'game' belying it being an artform in and of itself.
As I said, parts of a game can have artistic merit, but not the game in itself.
Because it's a game.

[Anonymous No.6105077]

>>6105071
so? keep going

[Anonymous No.6105078]

>>6104614
No. And videogames are not art.

[Anonymous No.6105079]

>>6105076
>Because it's a game.

meaningless

it's a presentation, hence the 'video' part of 'video game' which is often overlooked in favour of the 'game' part.

[Anonymous No.6105080]

>>6105077
just stfu if you dont have any meaningful counterargument.

[Anonymous No.6105081]

>>6105077
He doesn't need to.
If your dumbass doesn't get it based on that, it's because you're too dogmatic and obsessive about your precious games being considered art to see otherwise.

[Anonymous No.6105082]

>>6105070
Saying the point of games is to be "won", is saying the point of books is to get to the last page.
Sure it's somewhat inherent in the process, just as most media have some start and finishing line, but it's not the _point_.

Really only the example I can think of where the "winning" is an explicite goal is the competetive-level of E-sports, and then you're back at the sports<=>arts debate.

Besides "winning" really is an outdated concept for video games aside for maybe multiplayer matches.

[Anonymous No.6105083]

>>6105080
i'm still waiting for your meaningful argument before i can tell what you're trying to say. maybe you haven't thought your point out enough

[Anonymous No.6105085]

>>6105083
try not to cry when you go to sleep, faggot.

[Anonymous No.6105086]

>>6105081
projection alert woop woop

[Anonymous No.6105087]

>>6105082
>Saying the point of games is to be "won", is saying the point of books is to get to the last page.
You're missing the point.
Nowhere in the definition or etymology of 'book' or 'literature' is it stated or implied that the point is to overcome or accomplish that medium.

A game is literally and objectively made for that specific purpose.

And if it's not made to be won, then it's usually some other cheap form of utility entertainment to keep the customer happy for as long as possible.

[Anonymous No.6105088]

>>6105085
NO ONE CALLS ME A FAGGOT AND GETS AWAY WITH IT

[Anonymous No.6105089]

>>6105087
>A game is literally and objectively made for that specific purpose.

stop conflating game with video game

[Anonymous No.6105090]

>>6105087
>A game is literally and objectively made for that specific purpose.
'No'.

[Anonymous No.6105091]

>>6105089
name a video game where the goal is NOT to interact with the system/solve a problem/play

i'll wait.
bonus points: avoid stanley parable

[Anonymous No.6105092]

>>6105091
that wasn't your argument

[Anonymous No.6105093]

>>6105055
>it wasn't necessary to add
Yes it was, since video games are compromised of various artistic mediums which can be good within their category independently from the quality of the rest of the components.

>says who?
I do. I' already said why.

Let me ask you and anyone who disagrees with me ITT something, would you call a movie good if the only thing you enjoyed when watching it was the music? Would you call a board game good if you liked it's art but disliked the game itself?

[Anonymous No.6105094]

>>6105091
Come on, decide on what you're arguing for
>A game is literally and objectively made for [overcoming or accomplishing that medium]
or
>interacting/solving a problem/play
You can't have it all.

[Anonymous No.6105095]

>>6105092
im not him.

still waiting.

[Anonymous No.6105096]

>mfw gaymers cherrypick their handful of 'art' games
>always the same few
>shadow of the colossus, ico, pathologic, silent hill, interactive movies, and so on
>they've spent so many hours dedicated to games they forget that all of their 'art' games boil down to
>hit the weak spot
>solve the puzzle
>kill the bad things and don't get killed yourself
>press the buttons when prompted
>that they're all just games and nothing more in the end
and then they come to cry on /lit/ with the notion that 'games' can be 'art'
why is it so hard to see why those two words do not and never will go together

[Anonymous No.6105097]

>>6105093
>Yes it was
it wasn't. it didn't alter my point in any way

>Let me ask you and anyone who disagrees with me ITT something

none of your examples have that critical aspect of the medium that video games (supposedly) have in gameplay.

you can have a good video game if the presentation, music, animations, etc are all good and the gameplay (what do you even mean by this?) is bad like you're literally just jumping over platforms the entire game

[Anonymous No.6105098]

>>6105094
>unable to answer the question

[Anonymous No.6105099]

>>6105095
keep waiting then because i don't disagree

it just doesn't have anything to do with whether it can be art because it involves interacting with a system or whatever

[Anonymous No.6105100]

>>6104635
>They're always shit, no matter what.
this really is a intelligent and mature opinion

[Anonymous No.6105102]

>>6105096
Even The Void boils down to nothing but a game.
Pretty environments and enemy design, and symbolism in the narrative, things that serve as context to a petty GAME, do not somehow make that GAME art.

[Anonymous No.6105104]

>>6105096
keep saying that maybe it will come true ;)

[Anonymous No.6105106]

>>6105102
we're talking about video games, not just the game aspects of video games

[Anonymous No.6105107]

>not all games are about winning
>some are about being glorified, digital toys, and winning in ways I use other words to describe
epic arguments, guys
epic for the win

[Anonymous No.6105109]

>>6105104
>keep saying that maybe it will come true ;)
it already is, brudda
gaymers are the ones wetting their pants over trying to get artistic credibility

[Anonymous No.6105110]

>>6105107
can't remember anyone winning tetris

[Anonymous No.6105111]

>>6105051
>he has never read a book written to be read in more than one set way or order

laughinggirls.bmp

[Anonymous No.6105112]

>>6105097
>it wasn't. it didn't alter my point in any way
You didn't have one to begin with.
>not at all
>says who?
These are not points.

>you can have a good video game if the presentation, music, animations, etc are all good and the gameplay is bad
No you can't.

>what do you even mean by this?
Why are you arguing about video games if you don't even know what gameplay means?

[Anonymous No.6105113]

>>6105110
>glorified, digital toys

[Anonymous No.6105114]

>>6105106
video games are games
adding a music track does not change the essence of it.
considering the history of video games, namely gaming halls, video games are nothing more than timekillers.
adding and attaching other artforms to it doesnt change anything.

[Anonymous No.6105115]

>>6105109
>flashback 15th c italy
>painters are the ones wetting their pants over trying to get artistic credibility

[Anonymous No.6105119]

>>6105112
ok mr autist it didn't alter my 'response' in any way. the point is that it wasn't necessary to add 'as video games' to the end of what i was quoting because we both knew what you were talking about

>No you can't.

good point. i concede

>Why are you arguing about video games if you don't even know what gameplay means?

i specifically said i don't know what -you- mean. i don't know what your interpretation of it is and it really just seems like you're arguing about principles of some vague abstraction

[Anonymous No.6105120]

>>6105113
so glorification doesn't elevate their status?

[Anonymous No.6105121]

>>6105120
>appearing more elevated or special than is the case
>appearing
>than is the case
keywords

[Anonymous No.6105122]

>>6105114
>adding a music track does not change the essence of it.

how does it not? it's not just 'a game and some music' -- they're both now a part of the same experience

[Anonymous No.6105125]

>>6105122
>they're both now a part of the same experience
They're both experienced at the same time.
One affects your perception of the other; doesn't change the other in themselves.
They're both separate because they're separate media.

Just like illustrations aren't written text, no matter how much they enhance your perception of that text.

[Anonymous No.6105126]

>>6105059
>implying all art isn't entertainment
>implying that art shouldn't be entertainment

[Anonymous No.6105127]

>>6105121
appearance is subjective.

anyway not sure how your 'winning' thing relates to how video games can't be art

[Anonymous No.6105128]

>>6105127
nigger youre talking about interactive media.
atleast learn your own terminology.

[Anonymous No.6105130]

>>6105125
music affects your mood, which in turn affects how you play the game. if specific music is chosen to have you consider the game and how you play it in a different way then it can't be said to be separate. the choice of the music and how it affects the playing of the game is something that supports the argument of video games (as a whole, not separate innumerable aspects) as an art form

[Anonymous No.6105131]

>>6105128
what are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.6105132]

>>6105130
i mute ingame music since super mario land on gameboy

[Anonymous No.6105133]

>>6105130
>music affects your mood, which in turn affects how you play the game.

Important part.
Affects YOU; not the game.
It isn't the game. It's music played alongside the game.
And it affects your perception of it

[Anonymous No.6105135]

>>6105133
the person, affected by the music, affects the game

[Anonymous No.6105136]

>>6105135
>affects the game
Varies. As much as the player can affect the game.

[Anonymous No.6105137]

>>6105114
Video games CONTAIN games you ignorant fuckwit, just as they contain sound and image. Video games are vastly different from games, which you should have realized if you looked at the games produced before 1962 and the games produced after 1962, especially around and after the year 2000. Compare Chess and Croquet to Grand Theft Auto and Silent Hill.

[Anonymous No.6105139]

>>6104614

lolno

Most plot based games are maximum good films. Has film made reading obsolete?
I also don't get this comparison either. Games are only as good as there mechanic, aka set of rules. And honestly: The Mechanics in this games is far from overwhelming.

For me it boils down to the question: is interactive media art, which can be further reduced to: can a interplay of rules be art?
IMHO yes

[Anonymous No.6105140]

>>6105136
ok?

also it's not played 'alongside the game' -- it is a part of the game (by which i mean the video game itself, not the game aspects of the video game)

[Anonymous No.6105142]

>>6105127
One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a [sic] immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them.

[Anonymous No.6105144]

>>6105133
>Affects YOU; not the game.
The point of games and all other art is to affect you.

[Anonymous No.6105145]

I don't understand why people want something that isn't art to be called art so badly.
Like if it's suddenly acknowledged as something it's not, that will validate it. So god damn hollow and insecure.
If they had any comprehension of art, they'd realize it's not an elevation to be considered art it's just a different categorization for certain things.

[Anonymous No.6105146]

>>6105137
chess and GTA is exactly the same.

[Anonymous No.6105147]

>>6105139
gameplay is only important in that the person isn't removed from the experience by realising they've been holding down the 'up' d-button for the past three hours to advance the game

[Anonymous No.6105148]

>>6105146
With enemies like this, who needs allies?

[Anonymous No.6105150]

>>6105148
damn you tipped my fedora before I could even raise my hand

[Anonymous No.6105154]

>>6105142
video games are distinct from games

>One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game.

that doesn't stop video games from becoming an art

[Anonymous No.6105155]

>>6105150
Concession accepted.

[Anonymous No.6105156]

>>6105155
well done, good sir, you've done it again
cheerio

[Anonymous No.6105157]

>>6105145
it is art though and it's not about validation

[Anonymous No.6105158]

>>6105157
>it is art
Prove it :)

[Anonymous No.6105160]

>>6105142
This line of reasoning is blatantly wrong. Consider SimCity. Impossible to win not counting Magna Santi, still a game and not a representation of a story, novel, play, dance or film.

[Anonymous No.6105162]

>>6105157
>and it's not about validation
so by association, you admit it's about it being acknowledged as art, even though you apparently already know that

I guess that's why you didn't say it's not an insecurity

[Anonymous No.6105164]

>>6105119
>good point. i concede
I already said why, but to reiterate, it's because it's a game. You cannot judge it's quality by any criteria other than how good of a game it is, that is, gameplay, which refers to it's rules and mechanics.

Also forgot to address this in your previous post:
>none of your examples have that critical aspect of the medium that video games (supposedly) have in gameplay.
They don't? Is the way the snakes are drawn in snakes and ladders more important to it's quality as a game than the rules of the game itself?

[Anonymous No.6105167]

>>6105160
sandbox games have no win conditions
they are still about winning

[Anonymous No.6105168]

>>6105158
video games are comprised of representational choices as are the traditional visual arts

[Anonymous No.6105170]

>>6105167
>sandbox games have no win conditions
>they are still about winning
If they don't have a win condition, how can they be about winning?

[Anonymous No.6105171]

>>6105168
>press X to jason
>art
try again, hombre

[Anonymous No.6105172]

>>6105162
no it's about explaining how it is art to people who don't think it is

and i didn't read your post that far

[Anonymous No.6105174]

>>6105172
>no it's about explaining how it is art to people who don't think it is
It objectively isn't.
You're only explaining your delusions.

[Anonymous No.6105175]

>>6105164
>it's because it's a game

it's a 'video' game. it's not just a game

>You cannot judge it's quality by any criteria other than how good of a game it is

yes you can. you judge it based on how good a 'video game' it is, because it's not just a 'game'

and gameplay is only important in that video games contain it. anything else is just as valid in terms of judging its worth as art

> Is the way the snakes are drawn in snakes and ladders more important to it's quality as a game than the rules of the game itself?

i'm not talking about things being 'more important' except that gameplay is not 'more important'

[Anonymous No.6105177]

>>6105170
are you legit retarded or just pretending to be?
placing a block in tetris and surviving another second is a win.
collecting resources and crafting an item in minecraft is a win.

you cant finish these games, doesnt mean you cant win them.

[Anonymous No.6105179]

>>6105171
>press meme arrow to shitpost
>argument

[Anonymous No.6105180]

>>6105164
>You cannot judge it's quality by any criteria other than how good of a game it is, that is, gameplay, which refers to it's rules and mechanics.
Blatantly false, if modern games(i.e aesthetically advanced games) had their sound entirely removed and all the graphics replaced with the least number of untextured polygons then they would be garbage, which shows that there are other criteria other than mechanics. Can everyone please just stop constructing these ridiculous theoretical theories for one second and step back and think a little? Do you even play games before spouting this goofy bullshit?

[Anonymous No.6105181]

>>6105174
Art has an objective definition now besides maybe self expression?

[Anonymous No.6105182]

>>6105174
it objectively is

[Anonymous No.6105184]

>>6105175
a video game is as much a game as techno is music

[Anonymous No.6105185]

>>6105177
>reading one word and moving onto the next is a win

novels confirmed for games

[Anonymous No.6105189]

>>6105180
No, that simply shows that they are bad games.

[Anonymous No.6105191]

>>6105180
transistor is still a good game even when you remove the plot, music and visuals.

[Anonymous No.6105193]

>>6105189
We're talking about video games here buddy

[Anonymous No.6105194]

>>6105185
there is no interaction between reader and novel.
read: the text doesnt change when you reflect on/read it

thanks for confirming your stupidity

[Anonymous No.6105195]

>>6105181
>Art has an objective definition now
It always has.
>besides maybe self expression?
That is the definition.

Art is a form of communication.
A game, regardless of all of the fluff contextualizing why you play it, 'enhancing the essence' of that game, is still a game.
A game is not expression.
There may be expressive aspects to it, but at its core, the game isn't.
>but why not
>no it isn't
There are no more answers/refutations to these non-arguments and non-questions, it's like asking why 2+2 isn't 3, because it's an incorrect defiance of an established system of categorization.

[Anonymous No.6105197]

>>6105177
lmfao what are you even talking about

[Anonymous No.6105198]

>>6104614
i would argure that final fantasy 7 is a better fantasy story than most

[Anonymous No.6105199]

>>6105177
Jesus christ, I'm winning every second!

[Anonymous No.6105204]

>>6105194
>you win real life when you live a second

real life confirmed for games

[Anonymous No.6105205]

>>6104635
>mainstream normies
>hurr durr look at me i'm special
imbecile

[Anonymous No.6105209]

>>6105195
>That is the definition.

rofl pick up an art history textbook sometime pleb

>A game
>A game
>the game

we're talking about video games, not games

[Anonymous No.6105213]

>>6104764
maybe adults do not play video games on their computer?

[Anonymous No.6105214]

>>6105177
tetris is a glorified digital toy that has you win every second

toys confirmed for games

[Anonymous No.6105215]

>>6105175
>it's a 'video' game. it's not just a game
No, it's just a game, the 'video' refers to the fact that it's a game played through electronic devices.

>and gameplay is only important in that video games contain it. anything else is just as valid in terms of judging its worth as art
If it doesn't contain gameplay then it's not a video game, it's a visual novel.

>i'm not talking about things being 'more important' except that gameplay is not 'more important'
In snakes and ladders? Anyway I don't think there's a point in talking about this analogy if you think video games aren't necessarily games.

[Anonymous No.6105217]

This thread used to be common on /tv/. Never thought it'd end up here. The video games that gamers hold up as the pinnacle of storytelling would be mediocre Hollywood genre pictures. They couldn't even surpass the best of film, let alone the best of literature (a more conducive medium to story and character).

[Anonymous No.6105218]

>>6105195
David is self-expression now? What was Michelangelo expressing about himself? Unless you mean self-expression as it must come from the self, but then that's the same for video games. Face it, art as self-expression is a scam by bohemian hipsters trying to increase their own value by putting the focus on the artist instead of their work and their craft.

[Anonymous No.6105220]

>>6105218
>David is self-expression now? What was Michelangelo expressing about himself?
nigga, no one ever said 'self' expression
it's expression
communication
of an aesthetic, ideal, a thing
it's not a game ;)

[Anonymous No.6105221]

>>6105199
>>6105204
>>6105214
nice try.
if you dont place blocks strategically correct, you lose.
losing is the opposite of winning.
the process of extending the period of gameplay classifies as a win.

stay mad, kiddo.

[Anonymous No.6105222]

>>6105193
Which are games played through electronic devices.

[Anonymous No.6105224]

>>6105215
>it's a game played through electronic devices.

and represented on screen; those representations being chosen specifically to enhance the game and capture its 'essence'. how can you have gameplay in a video game if it's not represented by the art chosen for its representation on screen? it's crucial for the player to actually be able to play the game

>If it doesn't contain gameplay then it's not a video game, it's a visual novel.

yes that's why i literally said "gameplay is only important in that video games contain it"

>In snakes and ladders?

the game or the video game?

[Anonymous No.6105225]

>>6104744
Bunch of rubbish.

[Anonymous No.6105226]

>>6105220
video games are:

>it's expression
of a game

>communication
of a game

>of an aesthetic, ideal, a thing
game's aesthetic, its ideal gameplay, a thing (game)

games confirmed for david

[Anonymous No.6105227]

>>6104764
Why play it? Its got boring gameplay...Just watch it on youtube. There are 3 hour compilations of cutscenes and important story elements.
It really is like watching a movie.

[Anonymous No.6105228]

>>6105209
>rofl pick up an art history textbook sometime pleb
art has literally been a form of communication since cave paintings
might want to try that book thing yourself

[Anonymous No.6105230]

>>6105220
>no one ever said 'self' expression
:^)

>>6105195
>besides maybe self expression?
>That is the definition.

[Anonymous No.6105231]

>>6105221
if you hit the other cars on the highway you lose

driving confirmed for game. winning every second

[Anonymous No.6105233]

>>6105230
guess that definition was wrong :^)
at any rate, it's a form of communication

[Anonymous No.6105235]

>>6105228
>besides maybe self expression?
>That is the definition

>self expression?
>self expression?
>self expression?

>ctrl + f 'communication'
>0 results

rofl pick up a 4chan post sometime pleb

[Anonymous No.6105236]

>>6104924
>>6105147
>>6105142
>>6105160

I think the point is made that both, film and game can tell a story, both are consumed for enjoyment.
Also as pointed out several times games need a minimum amount of interaction. This is the unique characteristic of any game (be it chess or real time strategy)
The line isn't very clear, though. Thinking of interactive films in the late 90ties.
The question at which point is a game mechanic art?
First of all it shouldn't break the immersion, but this is trivial, because when watching a film I don't want to recognize cheap CGI or greenboxes as well.

Going from here I'd even go a bit further and say the medium in question is the mechanic itself and not the game, which is merely a question of style, technique and form.
Can a game mechanic - this is: how the computer computes the input, and how is the response calculated - transport an idea?

I think it can. You can for example make it extremely tedious to achieve something in the game the one way, considered the good way.
You can make the same outcome extremely easy to achieved by acting bad.
Though this brings many practical problems. If both is equally easy it is just a mere decision. In most cases the easy way is also favoured because it is faster (s Black and White 1).
This are the real problems of gaming as art

[Anonymous No.6105238]

>>6105220
>nigga, no one ever said 'self' expression

earlier:
>>besides maybe self expression?
>That is the definition.
lol

>communication
>of an aesthetic, ideal, a thing
yeah GTA totally doesn't communicate the aesthetic of a criminal
civilization totally doesn't communicate the aesthetic of world domination
the new metal gear totally doesn't communicate the aesthetic of PMC or whatever
>>6105221
you're ignoring your own example here, there is nothing in minecraft which can cause you to lose, just die and respawn, and even if dying was losing minecraft would be "won" by constructing a 25-block dirt prison and placing yourself there forever, which shows that you've basically ruined the concept of winning by stretching it too hard

[Anonymous No.6105239]

>>6105231
i dont disagree.

video games will never be art tho.

[Anonymous No.6105240]

Fucking narratologists ruined gaming. There's a reason the only games worth talking about nowadays are sports games.

[Anonymous No.6105241]

>>6105238
it doesn't communicate those things at all though
same reason why genre fiction isn't considered literature
they communicate ham-fisted delusions of those things

[Anonymous No.6105242]

>>6105145
Because with "games as art" the liberal douchebags can try to "chaaaaaange the world". Gamergate is essentialy a clash between those liberals, redpilled people and some good delusional ones.

[Anonymous No.6105243]

>mfw video game kiddies this mad about not being art

[Anonymous No.6105245]

>>6105236
>The question at which point is a game mechanic art?

i think with a successful (maybe even creative) abstraction and representation of something in real life. a translation. communication, essentially, of an interpretation (real life + imagination), which is what art is (according to probably all people in the thread)

also art: the progression of game mechanics, including their introduction and evolution throughout the game

[Anonymous No.6105247]

>ITT: /lit/ argues with 14yos

[Anonymous No.6105248]

>>6105239
because you don't win every second with art?

i'm not even sure what your point is now

[Anonymous No.6105250]

>>6105241
>they communicate ham-fisted delusions of those things
No, they glorify them. Everyone knows that thug life is mostly hanging out and doing cheap drugs and delivering packages to other bums and not cool shootouts and shit, just as war really mostly is sitting around in base and then being blown up by a improvised explosive, doesn't make The Godfather a delusion.

[Anonymous No.6105252]

>>6105243
say that to my face not online and see what happens

[Anonymous No.6105253]

>>6104950
who gives a fuck about game designers?
No seriously, gamedesigners =! gamers for fucks sakes.
people like you make me sick

[Anonymous No.6105256]

>>6105239
driving is so game that they made games of a game

so you can drive while you drive

[Anonymous No.6105258]

>>6105256
>implying life aint a game
babby plz

[Anonymous No.6105259]

>>6105258
#winningeverysecond

[Anonymous No.6105261]

>this shameful understanding of vidya
y'all niggas need some icycalm

[Anonymous No.6105266]

>>6105191
semiconductor devices dont have plots you dimwit

[Anonymous No.6105267]

>>6104614
Vidya has a lot of potential for great storytelling, and occasionally it really succeeds. For instance, Silent Hill 2 and 3 both told emotional, gripping stories both through exposition, but also the game world itself and how the characters interacted with it.

[Anonymous No.6105280]

>>6105224
>and represented on screen; those representations being chosen specifically to enhance the game and capture its 'essence'. how can you have gameplay in a video game if it's not represented by the art chosen for its representation on screen? it's crucial for the player to actually be able to play the game
Depends on how you define art here obviously. You can have the game represented by the bare minimum pixels or high quality graphics. And that's no different from playing chess with rocks or high quality carved pieces. But that doesn't change my point, I already said that non gameplay elements can be used to complement and enhance the game.

>yes that's why i literally said "gameplay is only important in that video games contain it"
I wasn't disagreeing.

>the game or the video game?
I was asking about the board game, but I'm curisous if you would have a different answer for a video game version.

[Anonymous No.6105302]

There is something wrong with you if haven't grown out of video games past 15 years old

[Anonymous No.6105303]

it's like you fuckers want to deny post modernism, but guess what? you can't and it's here to stay. a text is interactive as well, any kind. a text has rules, as well. it's all a game. authorial intent and Kantian definitions is as relevant as alchemy and astrology.

[Anonymous No.6105320]

>>6105008
How about artists paid by the government or some charities to simply create art?

[Anonymous No.6105329]

>>6105320
a benefactor always has an agenda
dont be foolish