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/lit/ - Literature

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6099465 No.6099465 [Reply] [Original]

https://danielmiessler.com/blog/meaning-is-an-illusion/

What does /lit/ think?

>> No.6099550

>>6099465
Damn. Existentialism destroyed.

>> No.6099582

Sounds like a teenager who just read Descartes and/or Russell for the first time and missed all the arguments.

>> No.6099590 [DELETED] 

>>6099465
What? He is spot fucking on.

"Meaning is contrived by humans as an explanation for why we do what we do." What our subjective meaning boils down to is desire.

"Animals have desires, too. They desire to control their territory and kill competitors, to mate, to reproduce, etc. Yet animals don’t have meaning in their lives because they aren’t complex enough to create it as an explanation for what they do. We are, therefore we have it." Or so we think.

>> No.6099598

>>6099582
What? He is spot fucking on.

"Meaning is contrived by humans as an explanation for why we do what we do." What our subjective meaning boils down to is desire.

"Animals have desires, too. They desire to control their territory and kill competitors, to mate, to reproduce, etc. Yet animals don’t have meaning in their lives because they aren’t complex enough to create it as an explanation for what they do. We are, therefore we have it." Or so we think.

>> No.6099621

>>6099465
how old is the author?(you)

>> No.6099626

>>6099621
I'm not the author. And I have no idea how old Daniel Miessler is.

>> No.6099627

>>6099598
The basis of philosophy is arguments not platitudes. This is sophistry at its purest.

>> No.6099632

>Speaking very honestly, here are the primary things I desire in life
>To have love and romance with one woman
lel someone should link this to r9k they might actually think its philosphy

>> No.6099637

>>6099627
No, this is an argument based on science. See? Science and logic can explain "meaning" better than philosophy.

And I have no idea how this article relates to sophistry.

>> No.6099642

>>6099637
>an argument based on science
Please highlight where in the article he makes an argument that relies on empirical scientific data as it's premises.

>> No.6099647

>>6099642
Actually I'll save you the time.
> I believe that all human goals–whether they are base and overtly selfish (to have enough money to be able to have sex whenever a person wants to), or are higher-order such as (I want to help Africa, even if it means my career…)–are fundamentally the same. They are all chemically-based and offer chemical rewards.
Please note the "I believe". This is not a rational philosophical essay. Its a blog post on unqualified opinions.

>> No.6099648

>>6099642
>Meaning << Emotion << Chemistry << Physics

>The “meaning” of life comes purely from emotional experience, which is chemically based. We know that emotion, and even spiritual experiences, are chemical in nature. It is already possible, using current science, to use drugs and/or direct manipulation of the brain in order to induce “spiritual” experiences.

You can't derive these things from philosophy.

>> No.6099688

>>6099465
does this mean nihilists are right?

>> No.6099704

>>6099688
Yes.

>> No.6099709
File: 50 KB, 600x817, LeFaggot.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6099709

>>6099465
>Meaning is an illusion

>> No.6099715

>you cant know nuffin

>> No.6099719
File: 33 KB, 500x500, 22b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6099719

>>6099688
>>6099704

>meaning is an illusion
>"rightness" having any meaning

>> No.6099756
File: 39 KB, 361x500, putin-laughing.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6099756

holy shit you people are all idiots

>> No.6099769

>>6099756
I agree. These people are.

>> No.6099776
File: 208 KB, 821x607, CNN.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6099776

>>6099715
kek

>> No.6099827

That attempts to logically argue that things are meaningless are inherently a thing to disregard because forming arguments involves assigning value and meaning in the first place.

If I wanted to sabotage the field of philosophy it's the exact kind of introspective futility that would make the best weapon.

>> No.6099856

>>6099465
can someone prove him wrong?

doesn't look like it

>> No.6099859

>>6099769
it's just us on the inside anon

>> No.6099890

>>6099856
Exactly. Which is why there is nothing but meme-spouting in this thread.

>> No.6099891

>>6099647
>>6099627
how is this sophistry?
you say unqualified opinions, yet you don't address what he says in the article

>> No.6099909

>>6099856
we could argue that its a overly simplified reduction that explains why we do things but offers no advice on what we should do.
but hes not wrong.

>> No.6099920

>>6099909
isn't he implying that all meanings are meaningless, that chemical reactions are the root of all feelings, that this invalidates it all. doesn't it invalidate his own views then? or something like that?

>> No.6099962

>>6099465
>To use said knowledge to help improve the lives of others

Haha, as if the selfish cunt wouldn't just use the knowledge to know he's above others and laugh.

That's what we'd all do.

>> No.6099982

>>6099962
Speak for yourself, cunt

>> No.6099984

This pisses me off because it says that animals don't have meaning.

Then why aren't they committing suicide in flocks? He has a fundamental misunderstanding of meaning, it's almost as if he misunderstands in order to create this argument.

>> No.6100000

>>6099984
They don't have near enough cognitive ability to despair in that way

>> No.6100014

>Now, here’s the problem: Emotional Blame is based on perception and knowledge and…well, emotion, and those are poor foundations for establishing responsibility.

Notice the difference between these two: If a drunk driver kills a child in 2014, the fact that it was not (truly) his fault is mostly hidden from all but the most thoughtful (and dispassionate) among us. But if a town gets flooded in 1349 after a newcomer with freckles arrives, the town can be equally convinced that the ginger is the devil.

Neither of these cases is closer to actual responsibility. One feels more solid than the other, so it registers higher on the Emotional Blame scale, but neither actor is truly more deserving of blame because Causal Blame is not available to us.

this guy is fucking retarded, his input is all pulled out of his ass, he states facts, then puts his own retarded thoughts about them

>> No.6100022
File: 41 KB, 590x350, Author-DanielMiessler-590x350.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6100022

>26k followers on twitter

kek...

it sounds like he's never even read plato's republic

>> No.6100027

>>6100014
How is the drunk driver not at fault? he chose to impair himself and operate a machine.

>> No.6100031

"Dominos falling are not able to choose otherwise. And neither are we. So in what sense does it mean anything to call us a cause?

Let's say a cell is dividing, and that, for the sake of argument, there are 9,436 stages of that division at a chemical level. Would you ever be tempted to look at stage 7,344 and call it a cause?

If not, then why would you look at another transitory configuration in the universe, i.e., humans, who also have no option to do otherwise, and call them "causes"?

And worse yet, why would you then attribute blame and responsibility to that particular configuration?"

>> No.6100033

>>6100027
that's what this faggot says

he says people shouldn't be accountable for blame, because he says free will does not exist

>> No.6100039

"My overall feeling is that—like cancer and liver failure—none of this is ok. This entire wicked game of courtship and mating is a disease that comes with our mortal, animal nature, and I look forward to a time when it will no longer be necessary.

Unfortunately this requires some significant changes in humanity, namely:

people not having the drive to reproduce
people not having vastly different capabilities
people not having vastly different beauty

It’ll be a while."

>> No.6100041

>>6100031
Dominos are not sentient, something must act upon them. Use a sentient example.

>> No.6100042

>>6100041
>thinks he isn't acted upon
What formless void in which you spontaneously caused yourself to be created are you posting from?

>> No.6100044

Author here.

Let's do this. Who has questions?

>> No.6100048

>>6100044
How does it feel to both have acne and be balding? Your adolescence and descent into decrepitude are overlapping, there hasn't been a single point in your life where you looked like a young man.

>> No.6100050

>>6100044
How the hell did you find this thread? That article is nearly 7 years old.

>> No.6100051

>>6100033
Free will is free only In a limited sense. The choice to impair oneself or not to is a free choice.

You may have a rough time in life through no fault of your own. One of you personal weaknesses is a desire to chemically dull the pain. That's not your choice, it's a chemical proclivity. Knowing the dangers and choosing to act upon it is a choice.

>> No.6100055

>>6100042
The are deterministic influences but there is no need or excuse to be slaves to them

>> No.6100058
File: 20 KB, 400x400, le fat amateur philosopher.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6100058

>>6100022
That him?

>>6100044
Danny-boy, your Twitter profile pic does not do you justice.

>> No.6100067

>>6100051
how is the choice up to you? if all that you've been subjected to has fixed your brain to make the decision you made

maybe you were raised without parents, and don't know any other way to cope. it's not your fault, your brain just chose to numb yourself because one choice outweighed the other by something you have no power over

>> No.6100069

I'll take the points in order:

1. I started balding at age 22, but was in the Airborne Infantry and felt and looked pretty damn young. Still feel quite young, but don't look it. Well done on the insults though. Good stuff.

2. I saw traffic coming into my site from here.

3. Here's a demonstration of why free will is a silly idea, in 25 lines of Ruby: https://danielmiessler.com/blog/25-lines-ruby-show-free-will-impossible/

>> No.6100070

>>6100044
You should comment on this. >>6099827

>> No.6100076

>>6099920
nah, he replaces meaning with justification for a primitive motivation.
so medicine is just a preemptive survival tactic in his model.
he might struggle with arts and some edge cases, but i guess he will cast it away with psychological evolution of sex.

>> No.6100080

>>6100069

I don't think you get the idea of free will.

Let's put it this way, I'm curious. What is your opinion on the concept of sentience? Why and how are we self-aware? Is it on a degree scale or is it a boolean variable?

Free will is not absolute. It's relative. So it may as well don't exist for you, while I view the concept on a different scale.

>> No.6100083

>>6100067
You know the consequences of choices you know what happens when you drink. You can choose not to. It may be harder for you than others, but that is just your lot in life. No one has the right to visit pain upon others while running from theirs.

>> No.6100095

> That attempts to logically argue that things are meaningless are inherently a thing to disregard because forming arguments involves assigning value and meaning in the first place.

This is a great point. It's basically pointing out that there's a contradiction between saying things are meaningless, and then trying to put forth some sort of life view.

It's true. It is a contradiction.

But I'm not smart enough to do otherwise. The world and perspective I'm trapped within is all I have to see from.

So if I have to live within this context, I have a couple of options (not really Ha!). I can pretend I have free will and feel better about the whole thing, or I can do like Camus did and NEVER reject the truth.

It's basically embracing the illusion in order to enjoy life, but never forgetting that it is an illusion.

This does a couple of things. It allows us to keep our intellectual integrity (I'm not going to deny something because it sucks), and it also makes you more compassionate.

If you know that those doing shitty in life didn't have an option then it makes people (me at least, and many others) more inclined to try to help them.

Basically, hate and apathy largely requires the belief that the person you're ignoring or hating could have done better with themselves. And once that's dispelled you're just left with suffering creatures that we should try to help.

>> No.6100097

do you guys think he'll realize how retarded he is once he lurks /lit/ for a few days?


i hope he doesn't kill himself.

>> No.6100100
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6100100

>>6100097
I hope he does.

God, his article is so fucking pretentious. It's sickening.

>> No.6100103

Anon, what would convince me I'm retarded? Realizing that nobody cares about this, and that I'm actually just being trolled?

>> No.6100109
File: 28 KB, 333x209, Ruseman.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6100109

>>6100103
>trolled

Twolled, guys! We're twolling him!

>> No.6100110

>>6100103
can you just, trip post here from now on?

the quality of the board has gone down in recent times, but please lurk for a while

with a trip add a # after DM with a number, it gives you a unique poster identification

>> No.6100116
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6100116

>>6100109
>>6100110
>implying its not a another rusemaster namefagging for the lulz

>> No.6100118

I don't think this is the real Daniel Miessler.

>> No.6100120

>>6100110
Yes, okay. I'll try to lurk, but I have other obligations too.

>> No.6100121

>>6100118
>>6100116
guys this answer looks very legit.

i'm 95% sure it's him.>>6100095

>> No.6100122

No, it really is.

Give me a text string and I'll host it on the domain. Sleep is silly anyway.

>> No.6100124

>>6100120
can you post a pic with /lit/ written on it and timestamped for absolute confirmation of identity?

>> No.6100125

>>6100122
Stop pretending to be me.

>> No.6100126

>>6100122
Can't you just tweet about your little encounter here?

>> No.6100127

>>6100124
Don't listen to him. I'm the real Daniel Miessler (\mē’slûr\).

>> No.6100132

http://drop.danielmiessler.com/AnzJ/aKexR1Hk

>> No.6100135

>>6100132
It's cool your site finally got some hits.

>> No.6100136

The sad part is that I'm so noob with 4chan that I don't know how to tell the difference between the other DM who's posting.

I suppose that's the nature of the anonymous board game, though. *shrugs*

>> No.6100140

>>6100132
Okay, so you're the real DM. Good.

Now what does the human race do at this point? It's all meaningless. Should we just stop reproducing? I'm leaning towards anti-natalism after reading your article.

>> No.6100141

This is low traffic time. Standard is around 6000 sessions a day. But thanks for noticing.

>> No.6100142

>>6100136
Stop roleplaying as me, identity thief!

>> No.6100144

>>6100136
in your name "DM"
you add # with a number following it

like "DM#123" and #123 will assign a unique code

so instead of appearing as just DM to us

it'll be like "DM!Sb5TslBh"

identification

>> No.6100146

>>6100140
Well, anal sex is quite enjoyable. So, no, it's not meaningless. Just enjoy life. Enjoy anal, specifically.

>> No.6100149

The guy who said anal is pretending to be me, but I actually agree with him. Hm.

>> No.6100150
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6100150

>>6100146
Shut the hell up, you little queer.

>> No.6100151

>>6100140
Just follow your genetic programming.
Do whatever you feel like.

>> No.6100152

Mic check.

Ok, so great question again.

No, you don't have to go the nihilism route.

We are alive. We still experience all the good things that were true before you read the article. In fact, the fact that these good things are temporary kind of makes them more special.

>> No.6100155
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6100155

>>6100151
>>6100152
This is getting ridiculous.

>> No.6100157

Testing.

I hope this name thing works out.

>> No.6100158

>>6100152
do you believe a drunk driver killing a child is unaccountable for his murder?

>> No.6100163

Alright.

I think I'm getting the hang of this.

>> No.6100164

Your article gave me another existential crisis, Dan. If I ever see you on the streets of SF I'm knocking your ass out.

>> No.6100165

Hey, other DM. Imma let you answer that guy's question. Let's see you authenticate via a good answer.

>> No.6100169

He had no choice in getting drunk nor in driving where he did.

There is no accountability possible in this scenario.

>> No.6100170

If you're in SF we're going to get coffee. Like tomorrow. We'll sort it all out. No crisis needed.

>> No.6100171

This is the real DM. Standby for real answers.

>> No.6100172

Other DM, not bad. But he'll need more than that. Continue?

>> No.6100175
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6100175

I regret making this thread.

>> No.6100176

Are all threads here like this?
I came to seriously discuss the article, but considering your tomfoolery i might abstain.

>> No.6100178
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6100178

Trying an image.

>> No.6100179

I'm going back to my website.

>> No.6100181

Guys, anyone wanting to actually comment can do so on my site. I can start a whole new thread for it. No need to do this.

>> No.6100182

>>6100172
https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/2510784-daniel-miessler?shelf=read

your reading history seems to indicate highly biased choice in what you read

have you read the bible or any real religious philosophy?

>> No.6100186

Here's the escape hatch.

https://danielmiessler.com/blog/4chan-free-will-discussion/


Other DM, you're welcome too!

>> No.6100189
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6100189

>>6100186
Well I'll be damned.

>> No.6100200

I have read a decent amount of religion, yes. I was a Christian until around age 20.

>> No.6100202
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6100202

>this thread

>> No.6100209

ITT: /lit/ berates and "trolls" an amateur philosopher.

>> No.6100211

True story.

>> No.6100215

>>6100200
>>6100211
what are your thoughts on 4chan in general?

what's your gyst of it?

>> No.6100223

Well, I'm an avid reddit user, so I'm pretty familiar with people anonymously trying to hurt other peoples' feelings.

But the structure of the thread development is fascinating.

>> No.6100227
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6100227

>>6100223
>I'm an avid reddit user

>> No.6100235

Out of curiosity, is this the same Anon that I was just talking to, or someone different now trying to insult me?

It's fine either way, just wondering.

>> No.6100236

>>6100069
I personally would never equate free will with the type of power necessary to change or control something that happened in the past and I've never met anyone who does. That's more of a godlike power than something one would predicate of a human.

>> No.6100237

>>6099465
Is the author advocating for nihilism? I can't tell. He paints a bleak picture.

>> No.6100242

I'm absolutely not advocating nihilism.

https://danielmiessler.com/blog/difference-existentialism-nihilism-absurdism/

>> No.6100246

>>6100242
Yes you are. Absurdism is sexed-up nihilism lying to itself about its essence.

>> No.6100248

>>6100242
You said it yourself. Meaning is an illusion; it's not real.

Why should one work so hard to create something that isn't real? Why not just end it all now? It's pointless.

>> No.6100251

>>6100223
>>>/reddit/
We don't want your kind here.

>> No.6100252

The whole point of Absurdism is NOT lying to yourself.

>> No.6100255

>>6100246
Brilliant.

>> No.6100258

If you enjoy friendship and ice cream, then it's not pointless. Just because something ends doesn't make it worthless.

>> No.6100260

>>6100252
>All this ideology
So you're 100% objective 100% of the time?

>> No.6100261

>>6100258
But you wrote an entire article claiming that meaning is an illusion!

When you say that meaning is an illusion, does that mean all value judgements are illusory too?

>> No.6100269

Absolutely not.

I spend a lot of time inside the illusion. I simply keep in the back of my mind, for when I need it, the facts of our existence.

It helps with compassion for others to realize that they could not have done otherwise.

>> No.6100276

>>6100269
Define "meaning".

>> No.6100278

What I'm advocating is much like what Camus did.

Keep one foot in each world. Never deny the truth of our existence, but embrace what is good in this life to the fullest.

>> No.6100283

Meaning is an illusory framework that humans construct to increase their happiness and reduce their suffering.

(that's off the cuff, so apologies if it's not great)

>> No.6100288

>>6100278
Seems like a cop-out.

Why continue bring more into this world knowing that it is cruel, unfair and meaningless?

>We couldn't have done otherwise
I beg to fucking differ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS0-T6fAZHI

>> No.6100289

>>6100258
>If you enjoy friendship and ice cream, then it's not pointless
Let's discuss telos. Without an end toward which something is directed, that thing has no purpose. If people have no reason to live, other than simply to defy the lack of a reason to live, it seems that their enjoyment of a thing would fail to give that thing a purpose, since people have no purpose and there seems to be no purpose anywhere at all in your picture of the world. It seems that you think people can produce meaning, in which case, you may as well believe in free will, since what that belief means will inevitably be produced. In other words, if I apply your reasoning about ice cream to free will, I find that there seems to be a contradiction between what you say about free will and what you say about ice cream. Why lie to myself about the meaning and purpose of ice cream if lying to myself about free will is stupid?
>>6100269
So you can't empathize with people who made honest mistakes when they could have done otherwise? Are you incapable of forgiveness?

>> No.6100297

>>6100283
Okay. So how is it illusory? Because you have explained how it works in an excessively reductionistic fashion?

>> No.6100300

>tfw this thread is dialectical as fuck

>> No.6100302

>>6100283
https://danielmiessler.com/books/

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Dude are you serious. That list is like 80% self help books. There's even more books on willpower than there are serious literature and philosophy. Do you read a new one every time you fail no fap on the first day?

And that article. Jesus Christ. It was so pretentious and petty.

>there are two types of people: those who conform to my reality and those who don’t

Do you ever listen to yourself? It seems you have no sense of self awereness. Why should anyone give a shit about you. You are not intelligent. And most of all you will NEVER do anything noteworthy.

It's time to stop posting. Dear God.

>> No.6100307

>>6100300
A debate? Dialectical? Incredible!

>> No.6100311
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6100311

>>6100302
fuck off faggot

>> No.6100314

Your last comments confuse me.

I think I have maximum empathy and maximum forgiveness precisely because I think people doing bad things are ultimately not their fault.

Now, if someone punches me in the face, I'm still going to react as if they did have free will.

That's where the contradiction is. Like I said. I live within the illusion most of the time. But when I'm pensive, and trying to figure out how to maximize happiness and reduce suffering, I pivot back to the truth, which is that we're a bunch of atoms bumping into each other.

This is not sad to me.

Knowing a great movie or play is ending, doesn't make the experience any worse. Experiences are fleeting, and that's ok. It's not much different than believing in free will but not an afterlife, right?

If you believe in free will, but you don't believe in an afterlife, then it'd still be all for nothing. Why not freak out about that as well?

The answer is that neither is a problem. We can embrace our experiences within the illusion while still knowing the truth and live better for it.

>> No.6100315

>>6100302
>Sartre and Dennett
You picked some shit philosophers to influence your shit philosophy.

>> No.6100319

>>6100069
>2. I saw traffic coming into my site from here.
But there are no direct links from here to the site. The OP link is plain text not hypertext, so there can't have been any click-throughs.

>> No.6100321
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6100321

I take it back. I'm glad I made this thread.

>> No.6100324

Insulting guy:

List your accomplishments, and I'll list mine. We'll take a poll afterwards on which one of us should talk less. : )

>> No.6100330

>>6100276
kek

>> No.6100331

>>6100314
>I think I have maximum empathy and maximum forgiveness precisely because I think people
But you seem to think that people who aren't responsible for their problems deserve more empathy than people who are responsible for them.
>If you believe in free will, but you don't believe in an afterlife, then it'd still be all for nothing. Why not freak out about that as well?
Why wouldn't you believe in an afterlife? The existence of God is self-evident.
>The answer is that neither is a problem. We can embrace our experiences within the illusion while still knowing the truth and live better for it.
Why did you write this article, then? Wouldn't you have been better served by just not shouting into the nothing? You seem to care quite a bit about this problem that isn't a problem.

>> No.6100332
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6100332

>>6100324
But your accomplishments are illusory. Thus, they do not mean anything.

Not the anon who insulted you, btw.

>> No.6100335

>>6100324
>Implying accomplishments mean anything
Stop contradicting yourself

>> No.6100345

> In other words, if I apply your reasoning about ice cream to free will, I find that there seems to be a contradiction between what you say about free will and what you say about ice cream. Why lie to myself about the meaning and purpose of ice cream if lying to myself about free will is stupid?

Because one is positive and one is negative.

Hatred requires the belief that people could have done otherwise. Compassion and love do not.

So I can just enjoy ice cream and friendship and romance and all those things without thinking about the ultimate causes of those things.

Hatred, and blame, and retribution--those all require the belief that the perpetrator could have done differently.

>> No.6100357

>>6100345
>Hatred, and blame, and retribution--those all require the belief that the perpetrator could have done differently.

What? No it doesn't. I hate my environment, and most products of it.

I do things based on how the universe is arranged and the laws of physics.

>> No.6100361

>Hatred
What does this have to do with ice cream and free will?
>So I can just enjoy ice cream and friendship and romance and all those things without thinking about the ultimate causes of those things.
I thought the point of your philosophy was eliminating illusions. Why bother with it if you're going to reconstruct those same illusions whenever you get scared?
>Hatred, and blame, and retribution--those all require the belief that the perpetrator could have done differently.
What is inherently wrong with blame and retribution, and why do you class them with hatred? Classing them with justice instead would make more sense, IMO.

>> No.6100369

You guys are focusing on the right thing: the contradiction between believing meaning is an illusion and also, simultaneously, caring about things.

Let me try to explain.

1. I believe meaning is an illusion, that free will is an illusion, and that this is fact
2. I am stuck being a human and I cannot walk around day-to-day in the mindset of #1. It's just not possible for me
3. So I HAVE to embrace the illusion. The alternatives are what Camus talked about: suicide or delusion.
4. I will NOT sacrifice my intellectual integrity by pretending I didn't notice free will and meaning are illusions
5. I will not give up and embrace religion or suicide
6. Therefore my only option is to live in both worlds and pivot back and forth. I'm never creating anything in the illusion that is real, but I behave as if it is because that's all we can do as humans stuck in this context.

>> No.6100374

>>6100369
I still have yet to see a sound argument as to why meaning is an illusion.

>> No.6100385

What would a sound argument look like?

I think not having free will in a world with no afterlife pretty much does it.

>> No.6100396

>>6100369
So you 'believe' it because you 'noticed' it? It seems like you're betraying your intellectual integrity by giving in so easily to the proposition that free will is false.
>suicide or delusion
As we've already determined with the ice cream example, you enjoy being delusional when it suits you because you're too scared to off yourself.
>I will not give up and embrace religion or suicide
So you're a huge bitch?
>Therefore my only option is to live in both worlds and pivot back and forth.
You believe in multiple worlds now? Which worlds are you talking about? How do you pivot?

>> No.6100402

>>6100385
>I think not having free will in a world with no afterlife pretty much does it.
You think the premises follow from the conclusion makes the argument true?

>> No.6100406

>>6100369
Free will is not an illusion, it is simply limited.

>> No.6100415

Suicide is not hard when you own a handgun. So staying around isn't being a bitch, giving up and pulling the trigger is.

Multiple worlds? I assumed you were keeping up. I'm talking about the distinction between realizing that there is no objective meaning, and embracing the illusion of our regular lives where meaning seems to exist.

Those are the two "worlds".

Hey, I've got an idea. Tell us what you think. You've obviously got it figured out.

Let's hear it.

>> No.6100424

>>6100415
Catholicism is the one true faith, free will exists, and Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind.

>> No.6100428

> You think the premises follow from the conclusion makes the argument true?

I can't argue the free will point and the afterlife point all here in this thread. What part of meaning not existing are you objecting to?

In other words, what objective meaning do you think exists in the universe?

>> No.6100433

>>6100324
Oh God. I can't believe you reduce yourself to this.
Can't you comprehend what you're doing.

>asking an anonymous poster to compare his accomplishment with yours

It would not even be a fair comparison, considering that I'm 18 and still in high school. But I guess intellectually developing after the age of 14 is a start.

>> No.6100435

>>6100428
God exists and all meaning is derived from His being.

>> No.6100436

> Catholicism is the one true faith, free will exists, and Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind.

Is this the smart guy I've been arguing with above who had good counterpoints about my argument?

Or someone else?

Tell me it's not him.

>> No.6100439

>>6100436
It is. The fact that you respect Camus more than the Christian tradition is a sign that you're a fool.

>> No.6100441

>>6100428
>In other words, what objective meaning do you think exists in the universe?

None. Meaning is inherently subjective.

>> No.6100446

>>6100436
You're getting trolled, dude.

>> No.6100463

> You're getting trolled, dude.

I don't know. I think he might be a legitimate Catholic picking a fight, which is ok.

>> No.6100467

>>6100446
No, he isn't. The only possible source of meaning and existence is God. There are meaning and existence. Therefore, God must exist.

>> No.6100470

>>6100467
M8, enough with the fucking satire.

>> No.6100471

>>6100470
It isn't satire.

>> No.6100476

>>6100471
You're actually Catholic?

>> No.6100477

> M8, enough with the fucking satire.

I feel you. But have you considered the possibility that he's serious? He might actually believe it.

>> No.6100478

>>6100467

>the only possible source
dropped

>> No.6100479

>>6100477
God damn communist heathen.

>> No.6100480

This is going to take us off of free will, but I'm going to offer something to you that might help you.

It's going to be offensive, so I apologize for that.

Would you like to hear it?

>> No.6100486

>>6100480
Shoot.

>> No.6100491

>>6100467
But God's existence doesn't prove that there's a meaning to anything. Because there is literally no meaning to there being a meaning to life.

>> No.6100501

I only tell you this because you seem quite smart. Smart enough to find the most interesting part of the free will debate very quickly.

If you can turn that light inward I think you'll be in good shape.

Now, answer me this:

The Christian faith is based on Jesus' sacrifice, right? Well how does that work if he isn't dead?

He was immortal before he came to earth. He's still immortal now. He didn't die. He actually couldn't die, since he is part of the trinity.

And yet the entire doctrine is based on his sacrifice.

Does that make any sense to you?

>> No.6100505

>>6100476
Yes. There are lots of us here. It shouldn't be surprising. I'm a bit lapsed, but I think the doctrine is correct and I am by all means a theist who believes in the truth of the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds. I went to a Catholic high school and went to Mass with my family every Sunday growing up.
>>6100478
Why? Many philosophers agree, including Aquinas, Leibniz, Descartes, Hegel, Spinoza, Plato, and Aristotle. This isn't a controversial opinion.
>>6100491
If God exists, how could there not be meaning? I don't think you grasp the concept of God. Besides, my argument is drawn also from the fact that we exist, not only that God exists.

>> No.6100508

You're a bright guy.

I implore you to read some Russell and Hitchens.

>> No.6100512

>>6100501
It's based on His Resurrection as much as it's based on His sacrifice. You're entirely correct. If He did not come back to life, it would all be pointless. He did die, outrageously enough, and then He returned to life. Christ is the Logos; he is the up down, the left right, the live dead. How this is possible is a mystery of the Trinity.

>> No.6100514

>>6100501
You're like a child trying to disprove santa claus to his parents. Except your metaphorical parents are trolling you. And you aren't cute.

>> No.6100519

>>6100508
I have. I find Russell boring and Hitchens obnoxious. I had my atheist phase in high school.

>> No.6100520

> And you aren't cute.

Ha! True story.

But I don't think he's trolling. I think he's for real.

>> No.6100524

>>6100508
This isn't /r/ atheism you retarded faggot.

>> No.6100530

> I have. I find Russell boring and Hitchens obnoxious. I had my atheist phase in high school.

And I ended my Christian phase right after high school, after a trip to the holy land.

https://danielmiessler.com/writing/how_i_became_an_atheist/

Well, it appears we may be at an impasse. I wish you good luck, man.

>> No.6100542

> This isn't /r/ atheism you retarded faggot.

I wasn't the one who brought up religion. He did when he said his worldview was Catholicism. We were just having a civil discussion after that.

P.S. Sorry about your penis.

>> No.6100558

Well, this has been fun. Had some good discussion between the trolling and the vitriol.

Thanks for starting the thread, and let me know if you want to have any serious conversation on the topic again.

Best,

DM

>> No.6100573

>>6100558
You're nice.

But you're very green on 4chan. Keep lurkin for the next month and I promise you, your views will be challenged significantly.

>> No.6100599

amazing thread guys

>> No.6101129

>>6099465
boring thoughts

>> No.6101245

>>6099984
Because meaning isn't even that relevant. You can live without a meaning, only stupid people believe it's necessary. Actually, nobody commits suicide just because their life has no meaning.

>> No.6101396

>>6101245
You're right in thinking that people don't commit suicide because their life has no meaning...but i think they do it cause they find too many meanings in their subjective point of view.

Killing yourself is a statement, it is a meaningful act, you don't do it out of boredom. Some plebs wannabee philosophers here could say that a suicide has not any relevance in the whole universe blah blah...yet we're here to live this life amongst humans and not wondering what it could look like from Pluto or an alternate dimension.

>> No.6101514

>>6100069
How do you feel about Neal Grafter the commenter on your blog post who ripped you a new asshole and tore your theory apart?

>> No.6101525

>>6101245

why did you write this post then? Clearly nothing has meaning.. WHY THE FUCK DID YOU TRY TO PROVE SOMETHING WITH THIS POST IF THERE IS NO MEANING IN ANYTHING YOU FUCKING MORON

ARGUMENT WITH BURDEN OF PROOF = SEARCH FOR MEANING

>> No.6101588

>>6099465
>Meaning is an illusion.
Who gives a fuck, it still exists regardless, because meaning is.

>> No.6101618

>>6099465
Saying meaning is an illusion does not erase meaning. It's basically saying that it only exists in a certain reality, but the reality of illusion exists...because we give it meaning.
Meaning is part of humanity. If animals could put memes in here, they'd put a face of a human and put on it "human. meaning. lol"

>> No.6101789
File: 10 KB, 300x300, 1367371655537.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6101789

>>6100406
>I'm a rational agent capable of transcending the universe around me

>> No.6102249

>>6099465
I agree that meaning is an illusion, but attempting to undermine meaning by alluding to physicalism and reductionism is like attempting to do away with the existence of the meter by alluding to the centimeter; these are merely distinct perspectives in which you may interpret the world. Likewise goes for psychology and neurology - an object/node of phenomena as seen from different angles. You can even say the same about different languages, like English or French.
Besides, if you're going to use scientific indications as premises for your arguments, they will remain fundamentally limited to the status, "beyond a reasonable doubt".
I'm unimpressed.