/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6042067]

What themes caused French literature to earn its place in the Western canon? Which writers and works have been the most influential?

Why should I appreciate the French?

[Anonymous No.6042073]

Flaubert

[Anonymous No.6042078]

>>6042073
This. And Hugo. And Balzac.

[Anonymous No.6042089]

Don't forget this nigga.

[Anonymous No.6042131]

Le Livre du Graal
Chrétien de Troyes
François Villon

Montaigne
Rabelais
La Pléiade (7 poets)

Descartes
La Bruyère
La Fontaine
La Rochefoucault
Molière
le Comité de Port-Royal (Pascal, de Sacy and others)
Racine
De Sévigné

Beaumarchais
les Libertins
Diderot
de Laclos
Marivaux
Montesqieu
Rousseau
Sade
Voltaire

Balzac
Barbey d'Aurevilly
Baudelaire
Chateaubriand
Daudet
Dumas
Flaubert
Gautier
Hugo
Lautréamont
Mallarmé
Maupassant
Mérimée
de Musset
de Nerval
Rimbaud
Stendhal
Verlaine
Verne
de Villiers de l'Isle-Adam
Zola

may I continue ?

[Anonymous No.6042136]

>What themes caused French literature to earn its place in the Western canon?

Not themes. From the Middle Ages to the late 19th century France was the most populous country in Europe and the dominant economic and political power. This gave the French language an immense prestige as the language of culture and international diplomacy for about 500 years. Therefore its literature was incredibly influential. Goethe had to build a German literary tradition virtually from scratch, such was the dominance of French amongst the cultured class in Germany around 1800.

[Anonymous No.6042205]

>>6042136
This brings much more clarity.

[Anonymous No.6042236]

Tip top stuff.

[Anonymous No.6042410]

>>6042205

Pleb for not knowing that.

>>6042236

Stendhal is pretty mediocre in my opinion, he's right there, transitioning from romantic to realism. Balzac is better, although he wrote a lot of mediocre stuff (most of his short fiction), he also wrote some of the greatest shit ever.

Flaubert, Badelaire, Latremont, Zola. Those are my favorites.

French and Russian lit > all other euro lit.

[Anonymous No.6042421]

>>6042067
Examine the French Revolution. Napoleon. The Restoration.

It was all highly romanticized and serves as inspiration to writers even today.

[Anonymous No.6042432]

>>6042131
Did u just say ballsack on the internet??

[Anonymous No.6042437]

>>6042432

Dude I bet you're the first person to ever make that joke

[Tallis !!y+12CeFwYOo No.6042454]

>>6042067
Read more. Come back later.

and see >>6042131

[Anonymous No.6042464]

>>6042131
>tfw youve only read decartes fontaine rochefoucault rousseau voltaire balzac baudelaire flaubert and rimbaud
>feelsplebman

[Anonymous No.6044184]

>>6042410
>French and Russian lit > all other euro lit
Oui
Да

[Anonymous No.6044214]

>>6042067
>Which writers and works have been the most influential?
It started with Montaigne & Rabelais, but the time where French lit became the most influent was during the XVIIth because of authors like Racine, Corneille, Quinault, Voiture, Malherbe,La Fontaine, Pascal etc

[Anonymous No.6044238]

>>6042067
French Absolutism was extremely powerful and influental. Shortly after the high-day of the french came to an endq the anglos and germans overclassed them in the 19th century. Honesly who is the Goethe of the post-revolution France?

[Anonymous No.6044282]

>>6044238
>who is the Goethe of the post-revolution France?
It's obviously Hugo. All his 13 collections of poems are just incredibly majestic

[Anonymous No.6044286]

>>6042464
I'm French and I have read only 8 of those 10 authors. Don't feel bad anon.

[Anonymous No.6044291]

>>6044238
>Shortly after the high-day of the french came to an endq the anglos and germans overclassed them in the 19th century.

>anglos and germans

That's a weird way of spelling "Americans", bro

> 19th century

That's a weird way of writing "20th century" pal

[Anonymous No.6044294]

>>6044291
>America
>Cultured

[Anonymous No.6044296]

>>6042067
>Why should I appreciate the French?
Beats me. Never seen a French author that wasn't juvenile and full of facile banality.

(Si, je parle francais, va te faire foutre.)

[Anonymous No.6044297]

>>6042410
>Badelaire, Latremont
>Badelaire, Latremont
>Badelaire, Latremont
>Badelaire, Latremont
>Badelaire, Latremont

[Anonymous No.6044300]

>>6044296

La cédille

[Anonymous No.6044308]

>>6044294
Perhaps not as far as literature is concerned, but if there's a big civilisation shift that demoted the French from the top position and replaced them with another Western people it's probably the two world wars and the ensuin American hegemony (it would be unfair to not include the Russians in the new hegemony, though, so make it "Americans and Russian").

As far as literature is concerned, the French were top-notch at least until the interwar period included. After that...well I'm not sure of what is left of European literature (including in England) after that.

[Anonymous No.6044309]

>>6044296
What a powerful and non-peremptory statement.

[Anonymous No.6044310]

>>6044296
Perhaps you should read French author instead of trying to see them.

(Non tu ne parles pas français là, connard, tu l'écris)

[Anonymous No.6044313]

>>6044297
I know, they are way overrated. I prefer Ago and Guttier. And Pascl. Always Pascl.

[Anonymous No.6044314]

>>6044308

Do you mean that 20th European literature is shit

[Anonymous No.6044316]

>>6044308
>the French were top-notch at least until the interwar period included
Maybe then? From our perspective, only thanks to Beckett

[Anonymous No.6044322]

>>6044313
>not Rmbud or Rcine
>not even Molir
wut

[Anonymous No.6044341]

>>6044310
>Perhaps you should read French author instead of trying to see them.
I tried, it didn't help, they're still shit.

> (Non tu ne parles pas français là, connard, tu l'écris)
J'peux faire le deux.

[Anonymous No.6044353]

>>6044341
>le deux
On va dire que c'est une faute de frappe..même si tu pues le mensonge

[Anonymous No.6044360]

>>6044314
No, I mean that post-1950 European literature is hard to assess, and seems to have lost some of its influence as an area of culture. People like Charles de Gaulle used to assess the quality of their hosts by looking at their library (and yes, CdG was in charge after 1950, but he was pretty raised in a spirit that was already dying at the time). Where are the biggests European literary talent of the past 50 years ? They exist, but they are not nearly as influential, or visible, as their counterparts of 80 or 100 years ago.

>>6044316
I'm not sure of what you're saying here.

>>6044322
Every educated person knows that LRochfouculd is the best. Although Crneille is not bad.

[Anonymous No.6044392]

Where to start with De Musset ? Is he worth it ?

[Anonymous No.6044411]

>>6044392
Les Nuits > Les Filles de Loth > One ne badine pas avec l'amour > Lorenzaccio > La Confession d'un enfant du siècle > His Correspondances with George Sand

His poetry is, in my opinion, inferior to other romantic writers like Nerval, Vigny, Hugo, Lamartine or Banville, but it's still worth it.

[Anonymous No.6044417]

>>6044353
> On va dire que c'est une faute de frappe
Beuf, alors je n'ecris pas de bon francais, quel horreur, topkek.

[Anonymous No.6044421]

>>6044417
T'écris surtout de la merde, en fait. Je pense même que tes posts seraient moins merdique si tu écrivais avec ton anus. Essaye pour voir.

[Anonymous No.6044427]

>>6044421
Wowowo du calme c'est vraiment pas la peine d'avoir si mal aux fesses parce qu'un démoulé-chaud écrit des conneries sur internet. Ses opinions ne regardent que lui après tout.

[Anonymous No.6044431]

>>6044417
>(Si, je parle francais, va te faire foutre.)
>Beuf, alors je n'ecris pas de bon francais, quel horreur, topkek.
You are just a liar, you don't speak French, you just use Google translate, that's pathetic. You lie just to shit on authors that you have never read, it's ridiculously pathetic..

[Anonymous No.6044437]

>>6044238
>Honesly who is the Goethe of the post-revolution France?

Zola probably.

French literature dominated the 19th century as well, there'd have been no Wilde or symbolism without the frogs (Gide in particular).

The French have more Nobel prizes for literature than any other country, fwiw.

Existentialism and Nouvelle Roman were incredibly influential in the 50s/60s.

A large number of anglophone writers (especially in the USA) have basically been influenced by/copied and stolen from French writers because they know they'll get away with it because nobody reads french.

French literature is incredibly important in the evolution of European (and by extension American) literature.

Proust wrote a very long book.

[Anonymous No.6044439]

>>6044427
>démoulé-chaud

C'est une expression picarde, ça ?

En fait j'avais juste envie de cracher sur quelqu'un en français, ça me manquait. On n'insulte pas les gens en français autant qu'on devrait, c'est dommage, c'est une langue très efficace pour ça.

[Anonymous No.6044443]

>>6044353

This is why 4chan isn't popular in France. There memes are all the same.

[Anonymous No.6044449]

>>6044437
>Zola probably
No, it has to be Hugo, we are talking about poetry mate

[Anonymous No.6044450]

>>6044437
As important as Zola is, it's probably Hugo >>6044282. The guy was the defining French playwright of his century, and so influential in poetry that pretty much every French poet after him was an attempt to exist besides him. He also wrote a buttload of essays and some novels.

But perhaps Zola is more important to American than Hugo, then it would fit in the context of your post.

I find your description of American writers a bit unfair, it's not like "borrowing" and "stealing" aren't staples of all literary traditions (plus French is probably the most read foreign language among American academics and critics, so it's not too safe a bet to simply plagiarize a French writer).

[Anonymous No.6044456]

>>6044439
Je sais pas si c'est picard, c'est juste une expression qui m'a fait exploser de rire la première fois que je l'ai entendue ; du coup j'essaie de la propager.

Mais par ailleurs, je suis d'accord, on a vraiment un trésor d'insultes imagées beaucoup trop sous-exploité dont il faudrait profiter.

[Anonymous No.6044458]

>>6044450
Hugo is probably the Shakespeare of France, but no-one in anglophone countries reads anything by him except Les Misérables (which is to be fair probably the most popular French novel in the English-speaking world). Zola's Rougon-Macquart cycle is very well-studied though.

[Anonymous No.6044459]

>>6044449
>we are talking about poetry mate

OP said literature in general, but fair enough, Hugo's massive, even though he's better known as a novelist than a poet.

If it's poetry we're talking then I'd say de Nerval or Baudelaire are more important, but it depends on how you're describing "post-revolutionary"..

[Anonymous No.6044465]

>>6044431
>You are just a liar, you don't speak French, you just use Google translate, that's pathetic.
Certainement pas, le traducteur Google ne fait pas des fautes orthographiques.

>You lie just to shit on authors that you have never read, it's ridiculously pathetic..
I dare you to name one French author who wasn't a tryhard fedora-tipping faggot. I double dare you.

[Anonymous No.6044472]

>>6044450
>I find your description of American writers a bit unfair

I said anglophone, not specifically American, so back off Hank. I like america and I think that the USA is one of the most important literary loci of the last 200 years. I ain't got nothing against the yanks.

I was actually thinking of the 19th century British (isles) people like Wilde who are viewed as amazing, sensitive poets/writers but are actually often directly copying Gide et al. At the time, they'd have been obviously influenced by French poetry, but now everyone seems to think they're AWESUM BEST POTE ALL TIME without understanding the larger continental context.

And Paul Auster's a bastard for copying/being influenced by French lit - he's translated lots of French, and you can see the influences of people like Robbe-Grillet all through his work. I've often wondered if he thinks "hmm, this is a bit similar to X, meh fuck it nobody will notice".

[Anonymous No.6044480]

>>6044458
>Hugo is probably the Shakespeare of France

That would be Molière. Hugo's more like the Rudyard Kipling of France. Without the empire stuff.

George Orwell's the Hugo of Britain.

[Anonymous No.6044481]

>>6044465
>I dare you to name one French author who wasn't a tryhard fedora-tipping faggot. I double dare you.

Racine, La Fontaine, Ronsard, Du Bellay, De Villehardouin, Bossuet, Corneille, probably Malherbe and Marot.

>inb4 there are minor writers

They are not. Racine and Ronsard are universally considered among the most important French poets.

>inb4 they are tryhard fedora-tipping faggot

Then even the most anti-homosexual crusading Catholic pope is a fedora-tipping faggot.

>Certainement pas, le traducteur Google ne fait pas des fautes orthographiques.

Ouais donc t'es juste un débile en fait. A vue de nez je dirais immigré sous-éduqué ou nord-consanguin. C'est pas grave, tu vas te sentir chez toi ici.J'espère que tu n'as rien contre l'homosexualité par contre.

>>6044456
C'est vrai qu'il y a un vocabulaire assez précis pour les insultes. "Démoulé-chaud", c'est pas évident à placer, mais je m'en souviendrai.

[Anonymous No.6044499]

>>6044465
What? you still dare speaking French after you shown that you aren't fucking able to make a correct sentence?
>Beuf, alors je n'ecris pas de bon francais, quel horreur, topkek.
Even a peasant of the XVIth would talk better than you.

>Certainement pas, le traducteur Google ne fait pas des fautes orthographiques
Sure mate

>>6044481
>Racine and Ronsard
Tu oublies La Fontaine je pense

>>6044459
>Nerval or Baudelaire
>more important than Hugo
Vraiment?ça m'étonne un peu

>>6044480
>That would be Molière
No, that would be Racine. Molière would be Pope or something

>Hugo's more like the Rudyard Kipling of France
I laughed

>George Orwell's the Hugo of Britain.
I hope it's a joke

[Anonymous No.6044501]

>>6044480
Problem is Shaky fulfills various roles in Britain: iconic "national writer" (that role is filled by Molière or Hugo in France, depending on the context), best playwright (that'd be Molière), best tragedian (Racine), best writer of comedy (Molière again), sometimes best poet (Racine, Ronsard or Hugo generally). People outside of France really underrate the influence Hugo has here, he's a fucking giant (just try to read all of his works in one year for instance).

>>6044472
I'm not American, actually, but this being an Amerifrat board, I've developed some strange reflexes.

>I was actually thinking of the 19th century British (isles) people like Wilde who are viewed as amazing, sensitive poets/writers but are actually often directly copying Gide et al.

But wasn't Gide also influenced by Wilde ? Also you have to remember that Western Europe is a fucking riotous gangbang of crisscrossing influences. The Brits sure were influenced by the French, but the French were also influenced a lot by the Brits (though the latter really became some time after the former).

[Anonymous No.6044510]

>>6044499
>Tu oublies La Fontaine je pense

Mais Racine et Ronsard sont souvent cités comme *les* plus grand poètes français (avec parfois Hugo). La Fontaine n'est pas loin, il est vrai.

>Vraiment?ça m'étonne un peu

Il parle d'un point de vue extérieur. Baudelaire est probablement le poète en langue française le plus lu et commenté à l'étranger. Valéry a écrit un petit texte intéressant à ce sujet ("Situation de Baudelaire").

[Anonymous No.6044513]

>>6044499
>ça m'étonne un peu

I think Baudelaire had a greater world-wide influence on poetry. I make no statements as to superiority or excellence, just influence.

I've a lot of French friends, for reasons I won't go into, and not many of them have read Hugo's poetry, but nearly everyone was forced to plough through Baudelaire.

Rimbaud was the poet everyone wanted to be, but I wouldn't describe him as post-revolutionary.

Hugo's a giant. Zola was better.

[Anonymous No.6044519]

>>6044481
>A vue de nez je dirais immigré sous-éduqué ou nord-consanguin.
Non, je ne suis ni francais, ni resident d'un pays francophone, grace a Dieu.

> J'espère que tu n'as rien contre l'homosexualité par contre.
Mais si, bien sur que je deteste les pedes.

>>inb4 they are tryhard fedora-tipping faggot
Yeah, actually, they are.

[Anonymous No.6044536]

>>6044472
>I was actually thinking of the 19th century British (isles) people like Wilde who are viewed as amazing, sensitive poets/writers but are actually often directly copying Gide et al. At the time, they'd have been obviously influenced by French poetry, but now everyone seems to think they're AWESUM BEST POTE ALL TIME without understanding the larger continental context.

Well duh. That's how literature works. The French Romantics all ripped off English (Byron, Scott) and German (Goethe, Schiller) Romanticism, who themselves were influenced by Rousseau and Shakespeare. Does that somehow invalidate the achievements of French Romantic literature?

[Anonymous No.6044537]

>>6044536
>Does that somehow invalidate the achievements of French Romantic literature?

How would you even infer that from what I wrote?


OP asked:

>What themes caused French literature to earn its place in the Western canon?

I attempted to provide part of an answer while the frogs were arguing over orthography and grammar and who's a mudblood impure stain on the honour of the French nation.

[Anonymous No.6044540]

>>6044510
>Valéry a écrit un petit texte intéressant à ce sujet ("Situation de Baudelaire")
Intéressant, j'y jetterai un oeil, merci bien

>>6044513
>just influence
Oh ok

>nearly everyone was forced to plough through Baudelaire
It's a shame, Baudelaire isn't really superior to Gautier or Banville or even De Lisle

>Zola was better
No, I'm sorry but I can't let you say such a thing. In term of novel, maybe. But the rest of Hugo's work is tremendously superior.
Also Flaubert > Stendhal > Zola I think

[Anonymous No.6044545]

>>6044540
>Flaubert

If we're talking about prose now, then Flaubert>nearly everyone.

He was the absolute daddy. A primary example of how a good novelist needs 100 pages to say what a bad novelist fills a doorstopper with.

I'm willing to admit that as a non-French, I probably haven't read enough Hugo to have a definitive opinion on him. I liked the Three Musketeers though, that was his best book.

[Anonymous No.6044551]

>>6044540

I htink baudelaire is a pretty cool guy, eh write about hashish and doesn't afraid of 420 blaze it erryday.

[Anonymous No.6044572]

>>6044545
>Hugo
>Three Musketeers
It's Dumas mate.
And if we are talking about prose, I would say Pascal for his Provinciales, but yeah Flaubert is probably the best prosaist of the XIXth

[Anonymous No.6044627]

>>6044572
>>Hugo
>>Three Musketeers
>It's Dumas mate.

Nearly half an hour and only one person bit the hook. I'm losing my touch.

[Anonymous No.6044673]

>>6044472

And the beats were very influenced by Jean Genet.

[Anonymous No.6044693]

>>6042067
>Western canon

Do people still think this is a thing in 2015?

[Anonymous No.6044705]

>>6044693
It is. Houellebecq, Alan Moore, Gene Wolfe, the list goes on.

[Anonymous No.6044744]

>>6044673

And Genet was influenced by Brecht, who was influenced by...

What's your point?

[Anonymous No.6044748]

>>6044744

What? How?

[Anonymous No.6044773]

>>6044748
>What? How?

That's not how it works, anon - I make a statement and you go find evidence for or against - I'm not your theatre studies teacher.

fwiw, many people see a strong link between Brecht's alienation and Genet's use of theatrical anachronism in his. And they're both heavily influenced by Chinese theatre.

That's your starter for 10 - you should be able to carry on by yourself now.

[Anonymous No.6044776]

>>6044540

Stendhal better than Zola? TopLel

Also, no mention of Joris Karl Huysman. Wilde loved him.

[Anonymous No.6044789]

>>6044776
>Stendhal better than Zola?
Yes.
Huysmans is my absolute favorite.

[Anonymous No.6044816]

>>6044773

As I suspected, you're full of shit. There is a wide gulf between "strong link" and influence, and you have not met the evidentiary minimum to constitute the latter.

[Anonymous No.6045090]

>>6044816
>you're full of shit.

lol. I strongly suspect that until this thread you didn't even know Genet wrote plays.

You've certainly never read any criticism on the subject. Look up Lanfang (chinese actor), maybe you can edumacate yourself. I'm not optimistic though, you seem like a typical opinionated /lit/ retard who's going to continue arguing his weak point, even though you don't have one.

Have at it, son, eventually you might actually come up with an argument.

[Anonymous No.6047168]

>>6042131

You forgot Appolinaire motherfucker!

[Anonymous No.6048573]

>>6047168
He forgot a lot of authors actually, but it was just to give a quick outlook

[Anonymous No.6051392]

>>6048573

I know, I just gently wanted to jibe him. I consider myself a Francophile and to be honest I hadn't even heard of half of the writers he mentioned.

[Anonymous No.6051493]

non raison

[Anonymous No.6051525]

>>6044499
neither racine nor moliere can compare to shakespeare unless you're delusional. france's only author that compares to shakespeare is montaigne

[Anonymous No.6051550]

>>6051493

>Pas de raison

Thank me later, boy.

[Anonymous No.6051563]

>>6051525
Moliere is to the French language what Shakespeare is to English (resp. La Fontaine & Chaucer, probably), but there isn't a single author that has been obsessed over by francophone literature like Shakespeare has by anglophone lit. No match.

[Anonymous No.6051811]

>>6047168
I stopped at the XIXth century, enculé.

[Anonymous No.6052357]

>>6042131
and to think that the proud culture that gave birth to these names now often holds céline to have written the greatest novel of the 20th century

[Anonymous No.6052392]

>>6052357
cute~

[Anonymous No.6053267]

>>6052392
>yfw the 2 best XXth writers fucked

[Anonymous No.6053277]

>>6042067
the French invented western civilization.

while they were making wine and eating cheese, the Anglos were inbreeding and burning witches

[Anonymous No.6053294]

>>6053277
so like the greeks tho

[Anonymous No.6055474]

>>6051525
>Montaigne
>Shakespeare
No. Racine is, but you probably never read Racine.
But if we talk about contributions to the language, Rabelais is the French Shakespeare.

[Anonymous No.6055502]

>>6055474
comparing racine to shakespeare is like comparing a beautiful lake to the ocean. there is no comparison. shakespeare's achievement is too wide

[Anonymous No.6055625]

>>6055502
your anus is too wide