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/lit/ - Literature

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6039453 No.6039453 [Reply] [Original]

IMO, James Joyce's works, especially Ulysses and Finnegans Wake, will not last the test of time because he wrote for a clique, a group of people more interested in reputations than talents.

>> No.6039457

IMO, your opinion is absolutely worthless.

>> No.6039463

>>6039457
As is yours, but that is not the topic of discussion here.

>> No.6039466

>>6039453
Joyce is as we speak lasting the test of time.

>> No.6039474

>>6039463
But it kinda is. Your post states that your opinion ='s X. You don't go into detail, nor do you expand or ask any questions.

The real problem here is that you disagreeing with Joyce being important is moot. He's already a major league, AAA, internationally pointed to, influence and just cause you or I don't really care for his books doesn't mean shit. Hell, even if he wasn't all that important in 21st Century works he'd be in every anthology on 20th Century prose.

>> No.6039477
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6039477

>>6039453
>Joyce will never release a 78 of Nora farting while he reads sections of Finnegans Wake aloud

>> No.6039482

Dude, the revelations of the bible is pretty much the same shit but its still being talked about

>> No.6039484

>>6039474
I am not talking about being recognised as a good (or great) writer, I am talking about his works standing the test of time.
Ninety-odd years is not sufficient enough to draw the conclusion he will be cemented in anything other than avant-garde 20th century prose.

>> No.6039497

That is amazing
Because in like 30 years when no one remembers him, everyone will look at me like at some kind of great thinker and intelectual because of my superior joyce knowledge

>> No.6039498

>>6039484
>This is how proles really think.

>> No.6039502

>>6039498
Point where I was incorrect.

>> No.6039505

>>6039484
See in most places both of those things are the same unless we're talking about a writer's writer like Stanley Elkin, James Salter, Grace Paley, etc. Those people will stay in publication over the years despite not being included in something like the Norton Anthology which more or less contains the Canon.

Again, you not explaining why Joyce will only be seen as a writer of short-term importance in a small artistic movement makes it sound like this is all about your opinion. It sounds like you happen to not care for him and because of that you think most people in the west or the world will read him in the future. I'm not exactly saying his stuff will be read in 700 years but 200 years is pretty damn good and that seems to be the trajectory he's on.

The point I made was that he will "stand the test of time" in that he's already committed to history in the Canon. His status isn't going anywhere. He'll always be a prime example of modernism and a one of the most influential modernist writers. Too many people have referenced him and too many people have written about him, his books, etc. for Joyce to evaporate from history.

>> No.6039516

>>6039502
In the context of modern literature "Ninety-odd years" is already a very long time. Secondly, there are still entire schools of study devoted solely to Joyce, and that doesn't just disappear. He's a part of the canon, he's the prime example of modernism, the list could go on. Your thought process is retarded.

>> No.6039519

>>6039516
And I don't even like Joyce.

>> No.6039523

muh b8

>> No.6039525

>>6039505
>Again, you not explaining why Joyce will only be seen as a writer of short-term importance in a small artistic movement makes it sound like this is all about your opinion

The accessibility of his greatest work (Ulysses), and his most complex work (Finnegans Wake) are notoriously inaccessible to the majority of readers.
Even for literary academics, who spend most of their lives and careers immersed in literature admit they find it difficult to fully grasp the breadth of Joyce's works.
There are hundreds of nuances and technicalities that will simply go over even the most learned reader's heads on a first or second or even third read.
Academics can barely even decide on any sort of sensible plot outline for Finnegans Wake, let alone decipher the countless strings of phrases and sentences almost seemingly designed with the intentions to confuse the reader.

He has a status as a great writer because he is one, and I happen to agree with this consensus, I just do not think he will last.

Citing his influence refers to my original post, that is all reputation and little else. It does not matter about his influence if his works do not last.
The name is separate from the work in relation to what I stated.

>> No.6039538

he's the most well known modernist writer aside maybe Kafa or Faulkner

>> No.6039542

>>6039516
>In the context of modern literature "Ninety-odd years" is already a very long time

I am not talking about lasting in modern literature.

>Secondly, there are still entire schools of study devoted solely to Joyce, and that doesn't just disappear

Show me some. And yes, they can and have just disappeared.

>He's a part of the canon, he's the prime example of modernism, the list could go on

He is a part of the canon, but is not the prime example of modernism. There are other writers a lot more famous and better flag bearers than him.

>> No.6039547

>>6039538
Fitzgerald, Woolf and Hemingway are far more famous modernists than Joyce.

>> No.6039558

>>6039547
lmao

>> No.6039564

>>6039558
Tell me how I am incorrect.

>> No.6039573

>a thread of prove me wrong
oh for fuck's sake

>> No.6039577

>>6039573
This is the proper response to this thread. We've gone over this exact topic many times before, OP.

>> No.6039581

>>6039573
I don't even know why I come here any more.
It's just 16 year old fedora edgemeisters.

>> No.6039582

Well, this certainly looks sage-worthy.

>> No.6039604

>>6039573
>>6039577
>>6039581
>>6039582

I guess this is the result of an incapacity to sustain your argument.

>> No.6040598

>>6039547
Not really. They're all pretty equally famous at the moment, though Kafka is probably more famous than all of them

>> No.6040620

>>6039453
>le ironic OP more interested in reputation than talent itself how clever amirite
You and any traces of your existence will have been ashes long unremembered when the study of Joyce's works relents into simply displaying him as the best English writer of the XXth century.

>> No.6040664
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6040664

>>6039453
alright /lit/ who will stand the test of time?

I got 5 bucks on Seth.

>> No.6040690

>>6039466
Then so is stephanie meyer, rowling et al.

A few decades do not qualify as "the test of time".

>> No.6040971

>>6040690
>stephanie meyer, rowling et al.
do not have "a few decades", and are already recognised as shit, which isn't going to change

>> No.6041187

>>6039525
Actually most academics don't have a problem with Ulysses. Ulysses is regularly cited as a novel that most people can read and comprehend. I'm sorry, but it seems obvious that you aren't familiar with academica and your comments here >>6039547are bullshit. Joyce is a prime example of high modernism in the English language just as T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland is one of the most indicative modernist pieces of poetry ever written. Hemingway and Fitzgerald might write in a similar affect as Joyce but neither writes in his style and they're the opposite of high modernism. Woolf mostly wrote in response...to Joyce.

>>6039542
Your comments that studies solely on Joyce have disappeared make me think you're just a troll.

>> No.6041240

Sadly, OP, I think he's here to stay, which is a shame, since I hate "Joycean" literature.
>MUH WORD PLAY
Yeah, that's why I read literature. Word play.

>> No.6041250

why did joyce like poo

>> No.6041539

>>6039453
IMO
Joyce's works especially Ulysses has been regarded as the best "modern" book of all time if not one if the best books of all time
IMO op is a shitty writer upset because no one will publish his shitty post modern garbage
IMO this thread is shit
IMO op is a faggot

>> No.6041550

>>6039547
xD

>> No.6041558

>>6040598
>>6039558
>>6041550
Well people who don't read know who Fitzgerald and Hemingway are

>> No.6041564

>>6041558
>Hemingway
mostly, though some of them are like 'the guy that wrote moby dick ye??' and I'm not sure whether it counts
>Fitzgerald
depends

Also I doubt that's a smart way to measure relevance

>> No.6041567

>>6041564
Wrong
They are talked about in school
Fitzgerald is read in school and Hemingway is constantly talked about on family guy.

>> No.6041569

>>6039538
Kafka maybe, but Faulkner is really only known in the US and UK

source: I'm from a non-english speaking country and no one knows him here

>> No.6041576

Your first mistake is believing there is such a thing as a single "test of time", OP. A close look at history would convince you that this way of putting thing is utter rubbish.

Some works fade into oblivion and are then rediscovered decades, centuries later. Sometimes they fade away yet again, only to return stronger, or to not return. Others become rampant once they reach a critical threshold of notability. It's more complicated than simply lasting or not lasting "the test of time" (as if time was a test of anything precise, really).
And that's not even considering that we're talking about fame or notability as if it were evenly distributed over a whole culture.

You need to seriously straighten up your way of thinking about things, OP, I mean, fuck, seriously.

>> No.6041580

And somehow the "test of time" becomes a thing

>> No.6041583
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6041583

>mfw pseudointellectuals consider joyce to be 'literature'

>> No.6041596

>>6041569
So am I and he'd very well-known. you must live in a 3rd world country

>> No.6041609

>>6041596
There are strange affinities between some writers and some foreign countries. Like Shakespeare and Germany, Molière and Russia, Poe and France, Tolstoy and the US...Perhaps you live in a country that has a long history of reading Faulkner, while >>6041569 doesn't.

>> No.6041613

>>6039547
In the US, and only in the US.

I know people who have tackled, for example, Grande Sertão Veredas or Macunaíma but never read anything by Woolf or Fitzgerald.

Hemingway might be as famous as Joyce, but Joyce's work is far more characteristical of modernism than his.

>> No.6041616

>>6040690

most of his work was written at least a century ago and finnegan's wake will reach its centennial in a couple decades itself.

>>6039453

If not for his unparalleled literary musicality, or the enormous amplitude of insight into his own zeitgeist, Joyce will certainly last the test of time due to his obscure use of language in texts that were clearly so popular with scholars for a very important century in history. Any historian, literary scholar, or eve layman looking back on the 20th century will discover Finnegan's Wake and think to himself, "What is so important about this gibberish? Clearly it merits study and research." Unless curiosity as a fundamental trait of humanity dissapears, Joyce will likely remain in the Western canon for centuries to come, bar any radical variables (i.e. all trace of his work destroyed, all trace of humanity destroyed, etc.)

>> No.6041622

>>6041576
This.

It baffles me how a board so completely in love with Stirner can say works simply fade into oblivion. The Ego and It's Own was completely ignored from Stirner's death to the 70s (and some might say it's still getting it's place amongst academia)

>> No.6041661

What do you even mean 'last'? You admit he'll always be an important figure in the modernist movement, so what else is there? Do you mean he won't be taught in schools over a millennium later like the odyssey or what? If so, very few works have 'lasted' as you say.

>> No.6041691

>>6041567
>school
>family guy
w8 m8 if its not b8 were you being sarcastic

>> No.6041931

>>6041609
Nope, he's just a very well-known author. So are all of those authors you mentioned, even if most people have never read them.

>> No.6041975

>>6039477
i know this feel

>> No.6042003

He was pretty much the face-man of a giant literary movement that shaped the course of the whole medium, not to mention well-renown as the greatest writer of the 20th century.
Now eat a bag of dicks.