/lit/ - Literature

[truman !!cO9KVBDtkqQ No.5951257]

Would it really be a good thing if a God existed, /lit/?

[Anonymous No.5951272]

>>5951257

No, because God would be held accountable for making a shitty creation such as what we are living in

A god who would create a world of suffering, misery, violence, war, and death is a piece of shit.

The problem of evil contradicts the notion of a good god.

[Anonymous No.5951277]

>good
>your posts
Pick one.

[Anonymous No.5951278]

>>5951257
>Would it really be a good thing if a God existed, /lit/?

No, we would all go to hell, if we arent there already.

[Anonymous No.5951321]

For people who like being slaves, yes.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951445]

That depends on his temperament and the extent of his power.

>>5951272
>A god who would create a world of suffering, misery, violence, war, and death is a piece of shit.
God didn't create that, we did.

>The problem of evil contradicts the notion of a good god.
Evil is what made our evolution as a species possible, imbecile.

[Anonymous No.5951477]

If God exists then he is an asshole.

[Anonymous No.5951484]

Surely he would be good by definition?

[Anonymous No.5951490]

>>5951445

>God didn't create that, we did.

So man is responsible for lions killing gazelle?
i am not just talking about human suffering, moronic cunt. Suffering is part of nature which is why nature sucks

>Evil is what made our evolution as a species possible, imbecile.

yeah and that's why are species sucks. A god that would create humans is a shitty god.

A good god would have let noah and his family die in the flood

[Anonymous No.5951494]

>>5951490

why our species*

[Anonymous No.5951497]

>>5951257
Ugh....which God?

Allah? Or Jehovah? Or YahWeh or YHWH? As in the abrahamic god?

No, that dude is a fucking prick and the New Testament isn't cannon, it's fan fiction.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951503]

>>5951490
If life is too rough for you, you can always kill yourself instead of bitching about how life with radical subjectivity, the one sublime aspect of the human condiiton, is too much of a burder

[Anonymous No.5951515]

>>5951503

>If life is too rough for you, you can always kill yourself

so stating a fact of existence means i should kill myself. It's funny how delusional optimistic faggots come up with that conclusion.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951525]

>>5951515
Saying something suchs isn't a fact, you imbecile, it's a value judgement, like "degenerate".

[Anonymous No.5951535]

A god that would create humans is an evil god because humans are an evil species.

Even god says humans are sinful scum that need saving. If he believed that then why the fuck did he create them? God himself isn't good if he created humans knowing they are all shitheads

[Anonymous No.5951536]

God, an entity, has to exist. Look at the ant for proof. One could build an ant colony, and these ants would have no way of comprehending the ant colony, they would live two dimensionally and be none the wiser.

We live three dimensionally and our glass walls are time.

Failing this, if you disagree with this definition, God still exists as a broad anthropological concept. We needed, ideally, a form or figure to explain the vast metaphysical quandaries human beings had for the last four or five millennia, thus we started with Zeus, Athene, Aphrodite, these were Egyptian gods, then the Jews cherrypicked Zeus and went with him, until the Christians single handedly created free thought, and expressive philosophy, which the branches of ontology and metaphysics know their contributions to. From this, sprouted other religions and definitions of god which are variegated and numerous, never being as multiplicitous as the polytheist gods, but always representing unity. It is from these Abrahamic religions that collective conscious was born, or that famous Nietzsche quote that goes 'The Jews surmounted morality'. They definitely created progress, because once an established good and evil exists, using Thomas Malthus' logic, then we can propel ourselves using social connectivity and biological needs for progress. And thus, society organizes itself into a multitude of inputs for progressive efforts, efforts that are spurred by positive social experience and straying away from this 'objective evil', whose existence moral relativists like Nietzsche disagree with.

God was necessary to get to where we are today. We are now living in the antithesis of God. Now what.

[Anonymous No.5951540]

>>5951484
depends which god

[Anonymous No.5951550]

>>5951525

if god created us in his image then god's a piece of shit like we are

[Anonymous No.5951552]

>>5951540
>Robin Williams
>terrific sense of humor

[Anonymous No.5951559]

[Anonymous No.5951561]

>>5951540

>implying everything he said there is not true or at least semi-true

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951572]

>>5951550
That's a very silly assumption to make, that he created in his image.

You also have a terrible sense of aesthetics and are plagued with slave morality that devaluates power, struggle and masculinity.

[Anonymous No.5951577]

>>5951525

A value judgement is true if has evidence to bolster it.

what evidence is there that the world is not a terrible place? It fucking is.

[Anonymous No.5951578]

>>5951525
how do you feel about christianity mr greek

[Anonymous No.5951591]

>>5951536

In the history of humanity the Abrahamic God is nothing but a footnote. Christian morality an even smaller footnote.

Other religions such as Hinduism have a completely conception of both God and morality.

Also applying Malthusian logic to the history of humanity is stupid. Humanity does not "evolve", it simply goes on and on without purpose.

[Anonymous No.5951599]

>>5951559
>Then he is malevolent
That's not how it works

[Anonymous No.5951603]

>>5951572

> plagued with slave morality that devaluates power, struggle and masculinity.

go jerk off to nietzsche some more, faggot

if you value strength and power, i would say you have a terrible sense of aesthetics.

[Anonymous No.5951605]

>>5951561
it's a parody

[Anonymous No.5951606]

>>5951599

Unless you are magically able to solve the problem of theodicity that Augustine set out as a mission to prove, then yes God is malevelent.

[Anonymous No.5951612]

>>5951559

>problem of evil

Christians get around that by the freewill argument. The freewill argument was developed by st augustine of hippo to explain the problem of evil. It's used to take the blame away from god and to put it on humanity

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951618]

>>5951603
I don't worship Nietzsche, in fact I very much disagree with him on most points he's a pleb's philosopher, but his diagnosis of your sickness is right.

Abundant suffering is what gives meaning to our struggles and triumphs, and allows us to emphasize with each other. The Greeks said life is 2/3 pain, and they had a relatively shitty part to build a civilization, and that made for an incredible culture of cruelty and empathy, violence and intellect.

A world without suffering would be like WALL-E

[Anonymous No.5951625]

>>5951618
How do you feel about Christianity?

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951632]

>>5951625
It's shit, but better than atheism at least. Paganism would be preferable, but that won't ever come back.

[Anonymous No.5951635]

>>5951618

>A world without suffering would be like WALL-E

if they are living bliss, who cares? what's the problem with the world of WALL-E?

>
Abundant suffering is what gives meaning to our struggles and triumphs, and allows us to emphasize with each other.

Ok, then let me smash your hands with a hammer and flay the skin off your back and i'll make your life more meaningful

[Anonymous No.5951639]

>>5951477
"If God exists, the worst thing you could say is that he's basically an underachiever" Woody Allen

[Anonymous No.5951641]

>>5951635

>Abundant suffering is what gives meaning to our struggles and triumphs, and allows us to emphasize with each other.

[Anonymous No.5951644]

>>5951632
What religion do you follow? One where a God created everything and that's the end? Or perhaps one where God is simply everything around us?

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951646]

>>5951635
>if they are living bliss, who cares? what's the problem with the world of WALL-E?
Like I said, your aesthetics are shit.

And numbness is not my idea of bliss, my idea of bliss is something can only be temporary because once it's pedestrian, it ceases to be bliss. The life we lead would be bliss to the ancients, but because we are acclimated to it, we (that is, people like you) don't appreciate it.

Bliss is triumph over great adversity, and reward for much struggle.

[Anonymous No.5951650]

>>5951612

If you still use the freewill argument then God must necessarily not be all-good.

Theodicity means thatGod is both benevolent and able and that he can take your sins away.

But if he is all benevolent, why did he create humanity in order to suffer?

Then it follows that he is not benevolent and he is just a sadistic shithead. Hence Gnosticism.

If he is indeed a malevolent Demiourge, then why create a way for salvation?

The only argumentation against this Christians use about evil in the world is that "God works in mysterious ways" , yet this doesn't answer anything.

Worshiping Zeus or Shiva, makes more fucking since than the Abrahamic god.

[Anonymous No.5951651]

>>5951632
>>5951632


>It's shit, but better than atheism at least. Paganism would be preferable, but that won't ever come back.

i can't believe morons like you exist. So you prefer fantasy over atheism because atheism doesn't suit your wishful thinking mind?

[Anonymous No.5951653]

>>5951591
I disagree, Malthus certainly implied Christianity was one of the only reasons we are where we are, evolutionarily wise, He posited that human beings' intelligence does not increase over time, but simply their knowledge of the universe does. Also, that the existence of good and evil was necessary for humanity to propel them forward, anthropologically.

[Anonymous No.5951659]

>>5951639


He was that loser kid in school, that was mocked by the other deities like Zeus and Krishna for being such a faggot, that as revenge wiped all the others with his superior and cuntish P.R. tactics.

[Anonymous No.5951682]

>>5951646
What religion DO you follow?
>inb4 atheist

[Anonymous No.5951685]

>>5951646

>Bliss is triumph over great adversity, and reward for much struggle

That implies that we should make people suffer in order to make them happy.

[Anonymous No.5951694]

>>5951685
Suffering is always possible. No one will ever have to 'make someone suffer'. Even in an easy and pleasure filled society, people can suffer. Our society today is easy- with a steady job, you can live with virtually no danger or pain. But we still can develop an aching in our souls for something more.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951739]

>>5951682
Atheist. If I followed a religion, it would probably be Hellenismos, but I don't believe in even one god. When I speak of the best beliefs, I mean for society. Paganism represents a healthy, strong outlook of wonder, Christianity one of disillusionment and puritanism, and atheism (which is really the natural conclusion of Christianity, Christianity being the first big religion of the West where denying the existence of gods was integral) is social autism where exactness and positivism are valued more than grandeur or strength.

>>5951685
No, it means that pleasure that isn't earned through struggle, or at least contrasted with struggle, is meaningless. If it weren't, everyone would just do heroin.

[Anonymous No.5951778]

>>5951739
>Atheist. If I followed a religion, it would probably be Hellenismos, but I don't believe in even one god. When I speak of the best beliefs, I mean for society. Paganism represents a healthy, strong outlook of wonder, Christianity one of disillusionment and puritanism, and atheism (which is really the natural conclusion of Christianity, Christianity being the first big religion of the West where denying the existence of gods was integral) is social autism where exactness and positivism are valued more than grandeur or strength.
What's your opinion on Christian apologists and how lots of history's greatest artists and thinkers followed the faith?

Personally, my head is like a god damn see-saw. Every time I become at peace, even joyful with life and make peace with death and convince myself to live a life of courage and honesty, I find my mind becoming tempted by Christianity or religion in an odd kind of way (the kind of arguments you think wouldn't affect anyone like, 'what if it is real and I'll burn in hell' or 'what if god is calling me and I'm denying him, which is the worst sin' or the classic 'religion is an essential part of human life- to deny our yearning for meaning is to deny our nature'). It fucking sucks, and just as I make peace with myself I feel like I'm doing something wrong. Ugh

[Anonymous No.5951785]

>>5951739

>it means that pleasure that isn't earned through struggle, or at least contrasted with struggle, is meaningless.

Pleasure is pleasure. There is no distinction between meaningful and meaningless pleasure.

Everyone should just do heroin. There is really no point in doing anything. Everyone dying and not doing anything meaningful except heroin would be a blissful death for the human race

[Anonymous No.5951794]

>>5951785

everyone not doing anything meaningful except heroin*

i should word that better

[Anonymous No.5951797]

>>5951785
>Everyone should just do heroin. There is really no point in doing anything. Everyone dying and not doing anything meaningful except heroin would be a blissful death for the human race
What a shit view. Is it too much for people to simply find joy in the life they have?

[Anonymous No.5951803]

>>5951778
you're crazy

[Anonymous No.5951813]

>>5951650
We can't know, you'd need far more knowledge than we can have to answer that question

At the same time we can speculate, it's a big leap from "why does evil exist" to "there can be no conceivable reason for evil to exist"

[Anonymous No.5951815]

I personally believe in a transcendentalist god. As in, the god as rationalized by Emerson and Thoreau. Malthus took the same rationalization: basically rationalizing god's existence from Nature upwards. Looking at Nature and locating within Nature things of interest and meaning, this means to human beings a lot because we draw our existence from Nature in the first place. Utilizing Nature, one can plainly see life's extant energies and organs: the trees and birds are the synapses and neurons of god. The ants are the people of god, who great thinkers like E.O. Wilson use to explain sociological concepts. This god, not a 'being' per se, but certainly one that exists, has got to exist. And is rationalized excellently in 'Nature' by Emerson. Clearly Emerson is a Christian, but in this I deviate from him, as there is one aspect of Christianity I don't agree with, and I'm sure there exist others who find personal virtuistic faults in religions.

But Emerson's logical, deductive reasoning of God is by far, one of the most beautiful things I've ever read.

[Anonymous No.5951823]

>>5951272
The Fool hath said in his heart (and on /lit/) ; "..there is no God.."

can you possibly see what an utterly stupid statement you've made?

that we were created with the freedom to choose as we will alone is the reason for Evil in this world.

God only created the freedom for us to choose for ourselves how we will act..what benevolence that we are not fixed in our actions to the will of another.. we bear the burden alone of the evil we know..

But if you can believe, God still loves mankind and has done away with the ultimate penalty for our rebellion through the blood he shed when he came in Jesus Christ . Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

[Anonymous No.5951835]

Sure, if he didn't intervene in our affairs and instead told us that this is the only experience of self-conscious that we will get, if he says that he did spark the big bang but has since then taken a back seat and let things develop on their own, if he says that he doesn't really give a fuck what we do or don't, I think that if he/she/it existed and said that it would be chaotic and confusing at first but beneficial in the long term.

[Anonymous No.5951846]

>>5951739
Do you ever doubt for a second that there is no God or 'correct' religion?

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951859]

>>5951778
>What's your opinion on Christian apologists and how lots of history's greatest artists and thinkers followed the faith?
They followed the faith of their time, Christianity at least as some unified cultural and tradition.

>Personally, my head is like a god damn see-saw. Every time I become at peace, even joyful with life and make peace with death and convince myself to live a life of courage and honesty, I find my mind becoming tempted by Christianity or religion in an odd kind of way (the kind of arguments you think wouldn't affect anyone like, 'what if it is real and I'll burn in hell' or 'what if god is calling me and I'm denying him, which is the worst sin' or the classic 'religion is an essential part of human life- to deny our yearning for meaning is to deny our nature'). It fucking sucks, and just as I make peace with myself I feel like I'm doing something wrong. Ugh
Read Kierkegaard if you're interested in Christianity, he's one of the few thinkers who actually understands the depth of Christian philosophy, most other approaches are superficial at best and won't satisfy a thirsty mind.

[Anonymous No.5951863]

>>5951813

But evil does exist and is very real.

If it pointless to speculate then why ask if God exist or allows it in the first place?

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951866]

>>5951785
>Pleasure is pleasure. There is no distinction between meaningful and meaningless pleasure.
There sure is. Try sitting by a fire after being out in a cold compared to sitting by it for hours every day.

>>5951846
Yes, but not "reasonable doubt".

[Anonymous No.5951869]

>>5951823

>created with the freedom to choose as we will alone

>actually we were created with that freedom.

Typical free-will christian bullshit

God said to adam and eve, "don't eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil" which implies he did not give us freewill.

According to genesis, the serpent gave us freewill. He gave eve the fruit.

I think freewill doesn't even exist. How does an autistic child have a freewill. all his actions are determined by his autism.

How do people in the middle east who are mostly muslim have free-will? Their environment determined their religion and that's why most of them are muslim. They didn't decide to be muslim as christians in the west didn't decide to be christian. Culture and location decided that shit for them.

[Anonymous No.5951879]

>>5951859
But you see, I can't bring myself to believe in one of the largest parts of Christianity- the afterlife. While I can admire Jesus Christ (people say this, but what he did seems to be beyond human to me) and even believe in a God, the concept of an afterlife seems just... not right. But right when I start thinking about that, the doubt creeps into my mind and I almost feel guilted into joining it.

Plus there's that whole thing about slave morality. And I admire a lot of the thinkers and artists of Ancient Greece, and to think that they would have gone to hell doesn't sit right with me.

[Anonymous No.5951883]

>>5951815

Emerson strikes me more as a Spinozist than a christian to be honest.

[Anonymous No.5951895]

>>5951883
There are points in his philosophy where he draws Biblical concepts like the Commandments and such from. I, personally, see these things as abstract rationalizations.

[Anonymous No.5951902]

I have found that the best thing a man can do to think about his beliefs is to remove himself from all communities, all company, and all of the thoughts of others and look at nature. This is how I've found complete peace, peace great enough to make life reliving over and over again. Coming to /lit/ normally shatters it with doubt, but retreating into myself gives me that complete joy once again.

[Anonymous No.5951903]

>>5951572
The Bible itself says that god created Adam in his own image, and then created Eve from Adam's rib so he must have very similar characteristics to at least male humans, which is true if you look at how he thinks and behaves during the entire old testament, such anger, jealousy, low self esteem, indecisiveness, pettiness, are truly human characteristics.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951905]

>>5951879
Slave morality is inherent to Christianity, it just that people with slave morality are attracted to Christianity.

Most of the thinkers of ancient Greece were probably shitty people by today's standards, think about the times. Slavery was rampant, including sex slavery for little boys, slaves working the mines supported the city, war meant raping and wholesale slaughter often as not. So if you're a Christian, they're bad regardless. But I think Heraclitus of Paremenindes are much better ideas on God, but they aren't quite compatible with Christianity.

[Anonymous No.5951906]

Why does a god need to be omnipotent?
An omniscient, entirely benevolent, and uniting deity isn't worth worshiping, but one that is simply omniscient, omnipotent, and cruel is?

Seems kinda stupid.

[Anonymous No.5951908]

>>5951869
>don't eat of the fruit
this was a warning had we heeded it we'd have remained in innocence where the duality of good and evil never arose we chose to follow one who believed he could usurp his own creator and replace the Eternal as supreme. but we were free to make that choice.... it was God's design that the choice we made produced the result we got not a direct punishment for some arbitrary disobedience

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951912]

>>5951903
>The Bible itself
Both polytheism and monotheism existed long before the Bible.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951917]

>>5951905
>slave morality ISN'T inherent to Christianity
That is to say, you don't have to give into ressentiment to be a Christian. Love in fact is not compatible with ressentiment.

[Anonymous No.5951919]

>>5951869
>God said to adam and eve, "don't eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil" which implies he did not give us freewill.

I just gave you a command and you disobeyed it. Therefor, you don't have free will.
>you are this retarded.
Leave this board and never post again.

[Anonymous No.5951925]

>>5951906
The concept of God is ONLY rationalized as omnipotent and omniscient. Otherwise, he's not God. A unity of God is only rationalized this way, anyway.

Polytheism is different, as long as the omniscience is spread throughout variegated beings like with the Egyptian gods, then it is still feasible. Still, the concept of God only exists because we, as humans, can never know everything about a)the material world and b) human nature and morality

B is more or less rationalized by Nietzsche and I, personally, think he solved a problem with 'Beyond Good and Evil', but otherwise, A will infinitely become a greater hurdle for us to leap as we distance ourselves from a connectivity of B.

[Anonymous No.5951928]

Good? Good for what? In what way?
If God exists, God exists. That's just a matter of fact.

What the fuck is with all these shitty /pol/-tier religion threads? /pol/ refugees? Winter break?

[Anonymous No.5951930]

>>5951905
>Slave morality is inherent to Christianity, it just that people with slave morality are attracted to Christianity.
Give me a quick refresh on slave morality. My ideas of it may be mistaken, as I've heard multiple descriptions of what it is here.

[Anonymous No.5951938]

>>5951863
It's not for us to say whether or not it makes sense that evil exists, it would require knowledge that we can't have

[Anonymous No.5951939]

>>5951919

>I just gave you a command and you disobeyed it. Therefore, you don't have free will.

How can you have freewill if you don't know what good and evil are?

You are the fucking idiot if you think people can have freewill without knowing what good and evil are. How is adam going to know that disobeying god is a bad thing without knowing what bad is?

[Anonymous No.5951943]

>>5951797
That is easy for you to say since you have a fairly comfortable life and can therefore become content with simply a change of perspective, but that is not the case for everyone, I think that one of the biggest problems we face is people's inability (or unwillingness) to put themselves at another person's shoes and try to understand them, everyone lives in a bubble, projecting their own situation to everyone else and saying things like what you just said.
If we can't get past that attitude we are doomed as a species.

[Anonymous No.5951947]

>>5951943
Exactly. What a great religious stance you have: heroin is your god. You just converted me. I am forever changed due to your elaborate religious stance.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951956]

>>5951930
>>5951917

As to what slave morality is, it's creating values to feel better about yourself and paint everyone whom you envy as a sinner. Master morality is creating values based off your ideal person or god and striving for them..

[Anonymous No.5951957]

>>5951947

Life is objectively shitty. anyone who denies this probably lives in a fantasy world or in a bubble in which he or she hasn't been exposed to the shittiness of existence.

[Anonymous No.5951961]

>>5951939
>How is adam going to know that disobeying god is a bad thing without knowing what bad is?

Here is the argument you are trying to defend:
>Adam didn't have free will.
Here is the argument you are making:
>Adam didn't sin because he didn't know what good and evil are.

You can still choose while being uninformed. Billions of idiots do it everyday.

[Anonymous No.5951964]

>>5951956
>paint everyone whom you envy as a sinner
This is something that 'true Christians' (I hate saying that) probably wouldn't do- because a true Christian would love everybody and eliminate envy from their lives.

[Anonymous No.5951965]

>>5951912
Well, I'm just talking about the christian god.

[Anonymous No.5951973]

>>5951257
He didn't say this right? This is maximum edgelord.

[Anonymous No.5951976]

People always bring up Nietzsche to go on their anti-Christian/"I know everything" binges, but never bring up Scheler. Who knows why?

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5951981]

>>5951964
Yes, but Nietzsche made a strong distinction between Christ and Christians. Christ does not suffer from envy, he doesn't create his values out of it.

But anyway, yeah, you don't need to have slave morality to be a Christian, but Christians very commonly have slave morality because through Christianity they can feel like their being impotent is a choice from humility, and that people who are powerful are going to get theirs in the very end.

[Anonymous No.5951983]

>>5951957
True, but I think that we should strive to make it less shitty for everyone.

[Anonymous No.5951989]

>>5951981
If I had based my understanding only based off of random posts on /lit/ I could have seriously misunderstood Nietzsche. The way people talk, it seems like Nietzsche has it out for all of Christianity.

[Anonymous No.5951992]

>>5951961

>Here is the argument you are trying to defend:
>>Adam didn't have free will.

Actually, no. That's not what i am arguing. my argument is that adam didn't have freewill until the serpent gave it to him according to my interpretation of genesis. The fall of man began when man(adam and eve) got freewill which was given by the serpent, not god. God wanted adam and eve to be automatons, it seems like.

I don't actually believe in genesis though. I think the story is bullshit, but if i were a religious person, this is how i would interpret it.

I am a determinist. I think DNA, environment, psychology, ect determine your actions and choices.

[Anonymous No.5952001]

>>5951992
So in your opinion no one has free will?

[Anonymous No.5952008]

>>5951869
What ?
How stupid are you they must have had free will to defy his orders and partake of the forbidden fruit

Are you saying that the apple was what gave them free will ? If so then you are mistaken because they apple gave them the power to know good and evil

[Anonymous No.5952009]

>>5952001

>So in your opinion no one has free will?

no

Your upbringing, your environment and your DNA determine your actions and your choices

if you are a brought up in a christian home, you are going to be a christian not out of choice, but because you were brought up christian and being christian is going to determine the choices you make in life.

[Anonymous No.5952011]

>>5951973
It's a parody of the Bakunin quote, probably.

[Anonymous No.5952025]

>>5952009
>2011+4
>determinism
Oh lawdy, get with the times.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5952027]

>>5951989
You have to read all of Nietzsche's corpus to understand him. If you only read two or three works, depending on what those works are, it is easy to think that.

Although I wouldn't say Nietzsche agrees with Christ, but he does make it clear respects Christ. His main disagreement with Christ is that he doesn't like devaluation of the material world in favor of an ethereal world. However, Nietzsche's main antagonist is not Christianity, but scienticism; Nietzsche's greatest grudge against Christianity is because he see Christianity's very demanding idea of a single narrative, a one and only narrative and all others are heresy, to be a precursor to the modern obsession of with making everything objective and scientific, and turning science into a religion. A lot of people don't realize that when Nietzsche critiques Christianity, often as not he's using "Christianity" figuratively to indicate our modern autism and obsession with a single narrative--new atheism actually sprang out of what Nietzsche was criticizing.

[Anonymous No.5952028]

ITT: people blame the evil of satan on god

read your damn bible

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5952030]

>>5952027
>make it clear he respects Christ

[Anonymous No.5952035]

>>5951989

Nietzsche thought atheism or secularism would lead to nihilism. When he said god is dead he lamented it and didn't celebrate it.

Nietzsche thought god brought order to society even though he was an atheist and thought the death of god would lead to a decadent nihilist society.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5952045]

>>5952035
>Nietzsche thought atheism or secularism would lead to nihilism. When he said god is dead he lamented it and didn't celebrate it.
He didn't celebrate it but that is because we hid the body.

Nietzsche's idea of "nihilism" means hating on the material realm, not being a moral nihilist. For Nietzsche, the religious are often the most nihilistic.

[Anonymous No.5952052]

>>5951257
Fuck I just had a fit of laughter.

[Anonymous No.5952053]

>>5951869
You really don't get it huh ?
Well tbh most religious people don't either
Most of the stories from the Bible are metaphors
To me the story of Adam and Eve represents the fall of man/woman born for better things but failing by being tricked and by desire. It also represents man/woman having more of a connection with the earth than just being its inhabitants. We are born on this earth from dust, we eat its fruits, we till its lands, we die and return to dust. We are the children of the earth.

[Anonymous No.5952066]

>>5951992

>God wanted adam and eve to be automatons
No, He wanted them to be servants. That is why he gave them free will.

>The fall of man began when man(adam and eve) got freewill which was given by the serpent, not god.
The serpent didn't give Adam anything. It just gave him another command, and Adam chose to obey it instead of his Master. How can Adam disobey God, if he doesn't have free will? If he is just an automaton as you say, then the only possibility would be that God created Adam to disobey him. That goes against any purpose the story has.

>I don't actually believe in genesis though.
Not even many church fathers did. It's stupid literal protestants that do.

Your whole view of the story is wrong because you think that free will requires that the subject be well informed. As I said in my earlier post, you are only making the point of "Adam didn't sin." instead of "Adam didn't choose.".

[Anonymous No.5952077]

Does /lit/ believe in free will?

[Anonymous No.5952083]

>>5951908

how is "do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil" a warning?
It's more like a commandment. He even says you shall surely die if you eat of the tree which makes god a liar because he didn't kill adam when adam ate of it.

The serpent said they would be like gods if they ate of it. Is that saying they'll have free will? who knows? I am not saying i am certain of my interpretation. The story makes no sense.

why didn't go want adam and eve eat not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Is being ignorant of morality a good thing according to god?

how the fuck do intelligent christians think the adam and eve story is a good story ? it's fucking stupid.

How can punish people for not knowing good and evil? God punished adam because adam didn't know taking the fruit was bad because he hadn't eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil

[Anonymous No.5952098]

>>5951272
I thought the problem of evil was answered by the concept of duality? Simply speaking, good cannot exist without the faintest notion of evil.

If good were to solely exist, it thus leads to a more convoluted yet less specific understanding of it or even to the lack of existence thereof.

[Anonymous No.5952100]

>>5952083

why didn't god want adam and eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?*

how can you punish*

[Anonymous No.5952110]

>>5952066
Oh god I feel really dumb, I always thought everyone back in 214 took the bible literally

[Anonymous No.5952143]

>>5952077
>>5952009

[Anonymous No.5952146]

If god was a nice person, he would not have done half the things he is described as doing in the bible.

I think an actually benevolent (or even amoral) deity would be cool to have, but if you mean God as in YHWH, then fuck no. I hope he doesn't exist, and will gladly accept damnation if he does.

A god worth worshiping would have been proud of mankind for building the tower of babel and either aided them or not interfered. He also would not have punished Adam and Eve for eating the fruit of life. (although I could see a philosophical justification for him being disappointed at the loss of innocence)

[Anonymous No.5952151]

>>5951484
god damn he is one edgy fuck

[Anonymous No.5952159]

>>5951973
>>5951973

>thinks everyone edgy

wow you're edgy

[Anonymous No.5952163]

>>5951445

>God didn't create that, we did

actually God created all of that because free will is a greater good

[Anonymous No.5952182]

>>5951257


can someone put "this is what christians actually believe" on a webm of the rock people from the film noah? I think that would be funny

[Anonymous No.5952187]

>>5951445
>God didn't create that, we did.

What about the Tower of Babel? or all the curses he laid down on humanity for trivial slights. Even if you take into account human free will, god is an ass who actively opposes humanity.

[Anonymous No.5952200]

>>5952182

[Anonymous No.5952211]

>The original sin is fee will.
>Humans gained free will by being deceived by outside entities before they could count as rational agents.
>Somehow humans are still responsible for this even though they can't have been said to have made a choice.
>But it's okay, Jesus fixed this and you can now go to heaven no matter what as long as you say magic words and partake in symbolic cannibalism.

This is what Christians really believe.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5952213]

>>5952187
Autism on three counts

1. No Christians with half a brain takes most of the Bible literally

2. Christianity is not the first and last word on God.

3. Hubris on Babylon's part. Plus, having multiple languages is much better, each language forces you to think a certain way, but with more languages, you find a whole new way to think about life; I'm leaning Homeric Greek, it's a totally different mindset. I'm happy Greek and English both exist instead of a universal language

Three strikes, you're out, autist.

[Anonymous No.5952216]

>>5952083
god means spiritually dead. he wanted them to eat from the tree of life without forcing them to. eating from the tree of life is to ingest god and to express him

[Anonymous No.5952220]

>yfw you realized god exists

[Anonymous No.5952221]

>>5952146
>If god was a nice person, he would not have done half the things he is described as doing in the bible.

he did these things to fallen men because they kept fucking each other up. you can hardly call destroying evil an act of evil

[Anonymous No.5952231]

>>5952187
if he actively opposes humanity he wouldn't have shed blood in order to redeem them. and these slights aren't trivial if they're literally acting against their god-given purpose

[Anonymous No.5952232]

>>5951257
Yes.

[Anonymous No.5952250]

>>5952213
You don't have to take it literally to see it's fucked up on a symbolic level.

And the tower of babel is not about how having more than one language is useful, it's about how god dosn't like the idea of humans getting to powerful.

>But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

It's a fairly simple story intended to explain why people have different languages. The reason is clearly that god thought humanity would be better if they weren't so powerful. He didn't think they were over-specializing or needed to look at things from different viewpoints, he just wanted people to be confused and powerless.

Hubris is the correct answer here, but the concept of Hubris is kind of shitty when taken to that extreme. Even the Greeks didn't glorify bullying as much as the Hebrews did. Yes Poseidon punished Odysseus, but Athena guided and protected him.

[Anonymous No.5952255]

Anyone who takes Dawkins seriously is an idiot, I've never seen him representing any kind of intellectual behavior whatsoever.

[Anonymous No.5952259]

>>5952220
>mfw

[Anonymous No.5952263]

>>5952221
They are only evil because god says they are evil. Things god says are evil tend to be things like prosperous civilizations, free will, eating specific foods, wearing mixed cloth, kinky sex, and just about anything fun.

If that's what the bible says is evil, Then I'd rather live in Babylon than Zion.

[Anonymous No.5952270]

>>5952263
they are evil because they are not expressing god i.e. their given purpose. they've fallen into temptation by satan and they actively are sinners

free will isn't evil

[Anonymous No.5952272]

Does Dawkins enjoy his role as a religious figurehead?

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5952274]

>>5952250
The Greek myths about Bellerophon and Icarus are about the same thing.

>Even the Greeks didn't glorify bullying as much as the Hebrews did. Yes Poseidon punished Odysseus, but Athena guided and protected him.
The gods' actions in Greek mythology are not meant to be glamorous or worthy to emulate, Greek gods as represented in the myths often as not are meant to illustrate human failings and what to avoid.

[Anonymous No.5952276]

> EVIL/BAD EXISTS
> THEREFORE GOD DOES NOT EXIST

Hahahaha, please tell me /lit/ isn't full of such plebian fish? This is cringe-level intellectual.

[Anonymous No.5952279]

>>5952220
I've known since I was a kid. Its a beautiful feeling.

[Anonymous No.5952288]

>>5952276
what are you talking about, you just gave evidence to why he exists. Evil exists to tempt us and we have to learn to become holier by being closer to god to avoid the tricks the devil plays on us.

[Anonymous No.5952291]

>>5952255
This, he is just an edgy fedora tipper who ignores the obvious plot holes in atheist.

[Anonymous No.5952295]

>>5952053
>the fall of man/woman born for better things but failing by being tricked and by desire

I think this interpretation is too catastrophic, in Genesis the exile from Eden is just one division in a series: light divided from darkness, sky divided from the waters, Adam divided from the earth, Eve divided from Adam, Eve and Adam divided from God and from themselves, Eve and Adam divided from immortality and Eden, Cain and Abel divided from each other.

>>5952083
>why didn't go want adam and eve eat not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Is being ignorant of morality a good thing according to god?

'good and evil' isn't referring to morality, it's a metonym for 'everything.' For instance in 2 Samuel 14 a king who 'hears good and evil' knows all things on the earth.

[Anonymous No.5952312]

>>5952274
And yet the Hebrew god is meant to be the ultimate authority on everything which cannot be questioned (even by beings he allows free will) and from which all morality originates.

>>5952270
What's so great about god's purpose? If you can show me where he gives a better mission than "Build awesome world spanning empires through conquest and trade, make prostitution part of your religion, and build giant towers to better worship me from."
I mean he does say vague stuff about the "Kingdom of heaven" or "the promised land" but he always seems to get pissy when people try to build something along those lines themselves.


Babylon are the good guys, the snake was a good guy. Jesus was an okay guy, but no better than any other savior figure's his myth ripped of) YHWH on the other hand, he's just an abusive father.

[Anonymous No.5952313]

>>5952220
>yfw you know he doesnt

[Anonymous No.5952314]

>>5952200
This is a joke, right? Tell me this wasn't actually in the movie.

[Anonymous No.5952315]

>>5952313
tibs flebdora. such edge anon

[Anonymous No.5952318]

>>5952314
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IMBJyztU2Q

[Anonymous No.5952323]

>>5952315
here's the thing.. as a slack jawed faggot of somewhere under 6 feet you lack the capacity to know no God exists because...


for you to know that you'd have to be omniscient and then you'd be God yourself... game over; theism\

[Anonymous No.5952325]

>>5952314
my parents got it from redbox at christmas

there was a whole battle scene where these golem creatures circled around the grounded ark like hussite war wagons and protected it from some descendant of cain and his sinful followers who were looking to jack the boat and survive the flood

the cain army were decked out in full tolkein uruk-hai armor and had red hot iron lances that they used to stab the glowing red nintendo boss weakspot of the golems. when they were 'defeated' they would ascend to heaven in a column of light and say some shit like "oh father thank you" or whatever.

eventually all the golems were defeated by cain's horde and i left at that point.

[Anonymous No.5952326]

>>5952314
It was a depiction of the 'nephilim', but c'mon we all know the nephilim were essentially 'giants' since that is what their descendents, who were around during the reign of David, were.

[Anonymous No.5952331]

>>5952325
We are all descendents of Cain, if you believe in the Bible literally.

[Anonymous No.5952332]

>>5952312
since when did this turn into me trying to convince you of god's greatness? i'm explaining his actions to you not trying to convince you that his purpose is a better idea than whatever you personally consider great and fun (beside the point)

[Anonymous No.5952344]

>>5952318
>>5952326
>>5952325
Jesus. I also just found out this was directed by Afronsky. What the fuck happened to him?

Or is this film not as bad as it seems?

[Anonymous No.5952360]

>>5952332
I'm arguing that god's a dick because he punishes people whenever they do anything but fall to their knees and worship.
Would you restate your counter argument? I admit sometimes I get confused because people argue different points on top of each other on 4chan.

I think Hubris and the whole Icarus thing is a valid theological point, but I think YHWH takes this past the point of absurdity, and that many of the things he takes offense too are either not that bad, or actually good things.

[Anonymous No.5952374]

>>5952360
well after the fall whenever man did anything it's basically satan acting, who is by definition evil. this is only in the old testament however because god's economy changes after the death and resurrection of jesus. men are corrupted by sin and live in an imperfect state so it's not really a dick move to punish sinners. but of course now we have a clear path to redemption thanks to his undickish sacrifice

[Anonymous No.5952387]

Can someone explain to me how Dawkins justifies the assertion that we will understand and be able to comprehend the issue of a 'higher being' through science?

[Anonymous No.5952389]

>>5952387
He's just making up lies to control society.

[Anonymous No.5952415]

>>5952374
Why is the devil evil? Because God tells us so? Didn't Lucifer also fall from grace for holding his head high? Symbolically speaking he's a metaphor for mankind itself.

And If the Devil really is evil and deceived eve (who at the time had no free will and can't be held accountable for her actions) then why should humanity be blamed for something they didn't understand they were doing?


Also I should point out. With the Tower of Babel, God literally says "nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them." The Icarus comparison dosn't hold here. God himself says it's possible to get to heaven artificially. He just won't let people, this isn't flying too close to the sun, it's just being a bully. And the Devil doesn't even come up in this story. Just people carrying out God's orders to be fruitful and multiply.

There is also the historical factor, much of the old testament was written during the Babylonian captivity. All of the new testament was written during a period of subjugation by the roman empire. The Bible is a book of resentment and bitterness where anybody better than you probably cheated to get there. It's no wonder Babylon (literally, and as a euphemism for Rome) is always portrayed as evil. It's the very definition of slave morality.

[Anonymous No.5952439]

>>5951490
>Nature sucks because Predators are a thing
Modern urban man is THIS cut off from their own genetic programming. This is why you are so unhappy you stupid democrat fuck.

[kitty !kitty/EnNg No.5952450]

>>5952439
suffering is set much deeper than simple predation, predators suffer too and ultimately may be more than their victims, deer who grow old and become slow usually die an easy death (unless it's a some weird country like england where they have deer but killed all wolves) while a predator may suffer a slow death from starvation. illnesses, parasites, pain etc are the fate of all the living

[Anonymous No.5952453]

>>5952450
I suppose in this case, you reap what you sow. However, the ones who kill others take their prey much easier and have easier lives overall, much less to fear.

[Anonymous No.5952456]

>>5951866
I like you.

[kitty !kitty/EnNg No.5952457]

>>5952453
animals don't feel human-like anxiety about the future and past though

[Anonymous No.5952487]

>>5952457
how do u know

[Anonymous No.5952493]

>>5952457
I'm simply stating a quality of their life, not their intelligence.

If you were a predator, you would live less fearfully than if you were a scavenger.

[Anonymous No.5952498]

>>5952493
And this is their claim to fame, you see rabbits are skittish and much happier in closed spaces than say, a cougar. And this is due to their evolution: they inherently know through nature what it is that they need to do, whether they were raised a certain way to know this or if they just possess these traits through nature, it hardly matters. Experience and genetics are conflated in the circle of life, and their experiences create new material and forms constantly.

[Anonymous No.5952537]

>all these pussies hating on based YHVH
He's the best thing about the Old Testament and the only god shitty humanity deserves.

[Anonymous No.5952572]

>>5952415
the devil is evil because he wants to destroy humanity

eve did have free will

[Anonymous No.5952587]

The violence from the animals does bear any contingent cruelty. Many times the violence in the humanity is sheer contingency.

In the humanity, even the vegans use the plants to feed them and they believe that they get away with it because they focus on pain via a nervous system. This is a necessity but coated in a fallacy.

[Anonymous No.5952590]

>>5952587
>The violence from the animals does bear any contingent cruelty.
*does not bear

[Anonymous No.5952611]

>>5951257

>consider Noah's Flood and the Second Coming

No.

[Anonymous No.5952829]

>>5952389
So like religion?

[Anonymous No.5952831]

>>5952829
How exactly are they making up lies to control society and which lies are they?
Assuming you aren't talking about Islam that well exits only for that.

[Anonymous No.5952893]

It would make life boring but it would also open up humans the the ultimate rebellion. What could be more daring than to opose the excistance of a god that has been proven as fact. Its would be like running aray from home as a teen x1000000.

[Anonymous No.5953084]

>>5951497
All gods are one god, or aspects of the one God. But only the God of Christ is perfected. However, believing in any other system of belief will serve you just as well, better in fact, as it seems that most Christians have utterly lost their way and fallen prey to a kind of pride that has blinded their capacity for actual reasoned and informed arguments, in favour of a simplistic and weak materialistic world view.

[Anonymous No.5953105]

[Anonymous No.5953121]

>>5952831
Christianity and Islam are like two ice creams but with different flavours, they both exist to control people, religion was and is a very useful tool to unite people and make them behave a certain way, back then when providing everyone with education was just not feasible you had to have moral lessons and advice that could be passed on quickly and easily, religion does just that.

[Anonymous No.5953122]

>>5951650
I think it is because God created man in his image but we are not exactly how he is; we have fallen from grace. As such we strive to be like Him; all powerful, and perfect. But we will never hope to obtain that; we are all sinners. So the last thing he offered, as a means of escape from sin and death, was His own bodily sacrifice. Believe in the selfless and compassionate meaning of this act and all sins will be forgiven. It sounds like god apologising and simultaneously making things better for us. Believe it or don't, that's the point of religion.

[Anonymous No.5953130]

>>5951536
I wonder, how can you say that ants have no way of comprehending the ant colony?

Of course they do! Are you really implying that an ant cannot understand that he is following other members of the hive to get some food outside? That he has no understanding of the structure he helps rebuild, in which he spends his lifetime and which he has to protect and which he serves?

Of course he doesn't see it from our perspective. However, he does have senses we do not posses. Ants have a magnetic sense, they can learn which ways are safe to travel and where to hide when its raining.

They do not have the brain power we do, but they do have some. They understand their surroundings. So do any other animals. Wolves create interesting, almost tribal structures, families of hogs travel together and consciously avoid people, dogs are trainable and are even able to understand what it means when you point to something.

The difference between them and us is just extra brain space and huge entitlement. God is completely unnecessary for evolution, and for existence itself, for physics says that there can't exist perfect nothing. There always has to be something. I bet that before the big bang there was a huge time when existence was really dense, but still it was there. Perhaps there was another universe that just shrinked.

On the contrary, religious studies are just fairy tales for people that want to be a part of a story.

>inb4 fedora

[Anonymous No.5953134]

I think it's only fair for him to be an asshole because of how insignificant humanity is

[Anonymous No.5953171]

>>5953134
Insignificant to whom?

[Anonymous No.5953198]

>>5953171
To him of course.

[Anonymous No.5953209]

>>5951445
>Evil is what made our evolution as a species possible, imbecile.
What? I'm not sure I follow. Evil leads to evolution how exactly?

[Anonymous No.5953221]

[Anonymous No.5953231]

God is a libertarian

/thread

[Anonymous No.5953278]

>>5951869
It's unbelievable that bullshit like this doesn't trigger more alarm bells on a literature website. Seriously, read through this two or three times, this is the intellectual equivalent of white noise.

[Anonymous No.5953284]

>>5951599
>rejects argument
>cannot proceed beyond that

stupidfag fuck off

[Anonymous No.5953286]

>>5953278
Sorry, meant for comment you're replying to

[Anonymous No.5953297]

>God is supposedly omniscient
>but, omniscience makes free-will impossible -- even for God

I don't get why people can't just come to terms with these two things.

Everytime it is brought up, the special-pleading begins to fly.

[Anonymous No.5953308]

>>5953278
>being triggered
>on a Kurd Post-It wall

[Anonymous No.5953332]

>>5952083
In a world without evil, free will has no meaning; no effect. It means nothing if the only thing you can choose from are incredible pleasures and goodness.

There are multiple meanings you can give to the forbidden fruit, but the one i like the most is the one who sees it as judgement of good and evil. That is the divine part of god that it is in us: the soul. We can choose what is good and what is evil, a power that belonged only to God before the fruit.

Free will and judgement of good and evil makes our decisions matter and have power. You can't see humanity without them and, imo, is what separates us from animals.

But, at the same time, with the fruit being there, the only relevante choice a human can truly do in paradise is eat it ou don't eat it. Eventually, even without the snake, the fruit would be eaten. You can't deny the choice forever.

[Anonymous No.5953341]

>>5951257
>implying he can kill an omnipotent and eternal being

Why Is he pathetic in every level?

[Anonymous No.5953346]

>>5951272
>the problem of evil meme

Seriously? This was proven false about 50 years ago by plantingagu

[Anonymous No.5953382]

>>5953332
>That is the divine part of god that it is in us

that would be the tree of life, not the tree of knowledge, which man did not eat

[Anonymous No.5953499]

>>5951257

The thing nobody seems to get in all this bs is that is means fuck all if God exists or not.

What matters is the definition of that "god".

The God of Plato is different from the one of Aristotle, is different from the one of Aurelius, is different from the one of Augustine, is different from the one of Aquinas, is different from the one of Dante, is different from the one of the Pope, is different from the one that doesn't exist.

Make up your fucking mind.

[Anonymous No.5953500]

>>5951883
He was literally a Unitarian minister, you dunce

[Anonymous No.5953504]

>>5953341
>>5952011

[Anonymous No.5953541]

>>5952011
>Bakunin, the most plagiarized by Nietzshce, after Stirner, of course.

[Anonymous No.5953589]

>>5953297

A better question is why even bother with free will? Why not just make us not have free will and just be nice to each other all the time? He could make it so that we don't even care that we don't have free will or even think about it and just enjoy our lives. The only thing free will really can accomplish is to make God feel good when we worship him "freely" but why not just make us worship him automatically? Seems like it would be much safer his creation.

[Anonymous No.5953634]

>>5951497
The Flying Spaghetti Monster

[Anonymous No.5953666]

There would be no difference between "if" "he" existed and this world we're living in. It's the same thing.

[Anonymous No.5953680]

>>5953666
Don't believe his lies.

[Anonymous No.5953993]

>>5953666
It would have implications for the afterlife and cause and effect in the real world though.

[Anonymous No.5953994]

If he did, in the Christian sense, it would imply that large numbers of people have probably been predestined to eternal torment, unless you have a nonstandard interpretation of the Bible, which would be depressing. I don't see any way out of this for an omni-max God.

[Anonymous No.5954183]

>>5951650
God wants us to love him

[Anonymous No.5954201]

>>5953994
Predestination isn't a standard interpretation, though, unless you're some kind of filthy Calvinist

[Anonymous No.5954215]

>>5951257
I'm sure Richard Dawkins didn't say that. If he did he's retarded.

[Anonymous No.5954301]

>>5953666
Nice try, Satan.

[Anonymous No.5954326]

>>5954201
I don't see how it isn't required by omniscience.

[Anonymous No.5954346]

>>5951278
Why does God existing automatically mean that hell exists? You're just stuck on the Abrahamic faggot religions.

[Anonymous No.5954351]

>>5954301

hahaha

[Anonymous No.5954356]

>>5951484
>>5951540
I fucking love this guy. He used to get a lot of shit for his tweets. Maybe he toned it down a little recently? Really shows how religion is above criticism.

I've been wanting to read The Greatest Show on Earth but they don't have it in my library for reasons unknown.

[Anonymous No.5954401]

>>5951257
Depends on the god. It raises the chance of an afterlife though, that's pretty good, isn't it?

[Anonymous No.5954421]

>>5951559

God = perfection

Humans = imperfection

Humans are imperfect because they were given free will, the ability to commit evil

[Anonymous No.5954431]

>>5954421
>omniscient being
>free will

KEK

[Anonymous No.5954439]

>>5954421
By extension, God has no free will and It must make imperfect Creation out of compulsion. Humanity is Its desperate attempt to find freedom, or a kind of meaning for Itself.

[Anonymous No.5954446]

>>5951559
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." (KJV, Job 38:4)

[Anonymous No.5954454]

>>5954439

> Humanity is Its desperate attempt to find freedom, or a kind of meaning for Itself.

holy fuck dude that is deep

[Anonymous No.5954470]

What does freedom of will even mean? Can there be something neither pre-determined nor probabilistic/random?

[Anonymous No.5954494]

>>5954470
All the things you can do are all the faces of a dice. Lots of dices, huh? Because of lots of "you". Not just humans but everything else. Every form. Lots and lots of dices. Free will, no bad nor evil, just hazard. And power, and corruption. And lit, whether good or bad, because what is good and what is bad.

[Anonymous No.5954498]

>>5954454
No it's not.

[Anonymous No.5954501]

>m-muh free will
So it's free will's fault that children can get cancer?

[Anonymous No.5954511]

>>5954494
I have no idea what you're talking about...

[Anonymous No.5954519]

he does exist

[Anonymous No.5954585]

>>5954511
My take: there are 7 billion billion billion (27 zeros) atoms (made of even more subatomic particles) in a human body. Not to mention unimaginable amount of particles in the universe. All those particles are subject to quantum effects.

I don't know anything about quantum physics, but Stephen Hawking had a really good take on free will in The Grand Design:

>Scientific determinism: Given the state of the universe at one time, a complete set of laws fully determines both the future and the past.

>Since people live in the universe and interact with other objects in it, scientific determinism must hold for people as well. Many, however, while accepting that scientific determinism governs physical processes, would make an exception for human behaviour because they believe we have free will.

>Do people have free will? If we have free will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop? Do blue-green algae or bacteria have free will, or is their behaviour automatic and within the realm of scientific law?

>Although we feel that we can chose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets. Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws… It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behaviour is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion.

[Anonymous No.5954587]

DEVS VVLT

[Anonymous No.5954608]

>>5952098
Why does the human understanding of good have any consequence on whether it exists? If a God really did exist, he would know that our understanding and defnition of good means nothing as He knows what is truly good.

[Anonymous No.5954614]

>>5951484
there is no way these are real

..is there?

[Anonymous No.5954618]

>>5954587
#volo

[Anonymous No.5954651]

>>5954585
Quite funny that Stephen's own thoughts lead to eugenics.

[Anonymous No.5954674]

>>5954651
Huh?

[Anonymous No.5954721]

>>5952066
Based on your pic, it seems like you are implying that all protestants believe the right panel, and that no Catholics take the bible as literally as Protestants, which I am sure isn't the case.

[Anonymous No.5954736]

>>5952457
Still, thou art blest, compar'd wi' me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But Och! I backward cast my e'e,
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear!

[Anonymous No.5954746]

>>5952457
>animals don't feel human-like anxiety about the future and past though
you're technically right, they feel animal-like anxiety about the future and past

[Anonymous No.5954749]

>>5952457
Still, thou art blest, compar'd wi' me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But Och! I backward cast my e'e,
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear!

[Anonymous No.5954751]

>>5951272
Video games without conflict are boring.

[Anonymous No.5954753]

No, a wise man once said that just like how flying insects are the playthings of wanton boys we are the sport of gods, they kill us for their aforementioned sport. so no I would not be very happy with such a god

[Anonymous No.5954755]

>>5951497
>New Testament isn't cannon, it's fan fiction.
/thread

[Anonymous No.5954757]

http://expirebox.com/download/afce6a424a299e29e7463b1faf4c0dc1.html

[Anonymous No.5954811]

>>5952572
Does he want to destroy humanity?

[Anonymous No.5954894]

>>5951930
Slave morality, as Nietzsche defined it, is an inversion of values, where the slave sees are virtues those thing the nobles see as vices, and vice-versa. So for example, weakness is regarded as a sin under the morality of the noble, but as a virtue under slave morality.

This was the primary reason Nietzsche had no use for Christians: he saw them as slaves, lacking of any real sense of nobility, and trying to justify their pathetic existence by valuing precisely those qualities that noble souls despise. The same argument could be made concerning Islam as well (the emphasis on submission to a higher power, which is something no noble would ever regard as virtuous).

[Anonymous No.5954906]

>>5952077
Most modern neuro-anatomists do not.

[Anonymous No.5954913]

>>5951646
>your aesthetics are shit.
Yes and here you are on 4chan being a little bitch while you could be achieving those aesthetics yourself.

>inb4 b-but I mean ideal :'(

[Anonymous No.5954917]

>>5952213
1) You been to America lately, chief? Literally two-thirds of this fucking country takes the Bible as the literal true word of God, down to the last letter of the KJV.
2) See 1
3) Autist? English much?

[Anonymous No.5954928]

>>5952415
And where exactly in the Bible can I find the Devil? Let me guess, it's in the same chapter that mentions Christmas?

[Anonymous No.5954945]

>>5951869
The whole story is an analogy of becoming an adult and leaving the protection of your parents to work and toil in the real world. Interpreting literally or in some grand view of good and evil vs free will doesn't really make sense.

[Anonymous No.5954951]

>>5952213
>Plus, having multiple languages is much better
Also, there are physical benefits that come with learnning more languages.

[Anonymous No.5954952]

>>5954917
The Bible thumping horde is a bogeyman and you know it. You seriously think 200+ million people are walking around thinking the Earth is 6000 years old?

[Anonymous No.5955001]

>>5953680
Bravo Nolan.

[Anonymous No.5955009]

>>5954928
Satan wasn't bad in the OT. He only became bad around Jesus' time and was used as a political ad hominem argument for Jews to sling at each other to discredit others' opinions.

[Anonymous No.5955068]

>>5954952
Not the person you replied to. 2/3 really does not seem that exaggerated. I've seen some graphs based on belief in evolution, and they seem to land on 40-60% for evolution. Meaning the rest think evolution is just a hoax some stupid guy in Europe thought of.

If you're willing to disregard 150 years of biology (all of it is based on theory of evolution), I don't see why you should bother with minor things like geology and astrophysics.

[Anonymous No.5955192]

>>5951823

Ultimately what good does free will do you if you're locked into a preset box of beliefs as a means to get the 'reward' while everyone else burns in hell. Sounds pretty damn stupid to me.

[Anonymous No.5956142]

>>5953130
How it is that you perceive the ants comprehend the ant colony is exactly how we comprehend our community.

[Anonymous No.5956220]

>>5954811
of course. what better way to rebel against god than to set his creation against itself?

[Anonymous No.5956226]

>>5955009
>corrupts humanity
>not bad

[Anonymous No.5956279]

>>5953666
Satanic logic, gotta love it.

[Anonymous No.5956419]

>>5956226
>Corruption includes free will.
>Not good.

[Anonymous No.5956452]

>>5956419
free will existed before corruption

[Anonymous No.5956536]

>>5956452
"Knowledge of good and evil." Humans didn't have free will until they ate the fruit. Hence the whole innocence/nudity symbolism.

[Anonymous No.5956541]

>>5951257
Yes. A perfect being by nature would plan out this universe so as to be the best possible.

It may not be good for us but at least they're would be a point to it.

[Anonymous No.5956545]

>>5951484
Is this a parody account?

[Anonymous No.5956668]

>>5954751
We can create a world with conflict and struggle that is not as insane as the one we live in today.
And if we can do it so can God.

[Anonymous No.5956713]

Its a dirty job but someone's gotta do it.

[Anonymous No.5957107]

is eternal life desirable?

[Anonymous No.5957113]

>>5956536
>Humans didn't have free will until they ate the fruit.

that isn't true at all. god wanted man to choose the tree of life and to not choose the tree of knowledge. if man didn't have free will he would have eaten from the tree of life straight away, which is what god desired

[Anonymous No.5957237]

>>5957107
Depends on what type of life we are talking about, as it stands right now I'm kind of looking forward for death but in the ideal conditions I wouldn't mind living for centuries or even millennia, I don't know about eternity though.

[Anonymous No.5957320]

>>5957107
I keep finding myself voluntarily falling into prisoner situations. I make my quarters a cell and leave only when I must. Time compresses and years seem to float by without much perceptible change. Life without ambition seems to be the least painful way to live forever.

[Anonymous No.5957483]

>>5957107
Depends on what you want to do, I guess. If you'd just meander the world through the centuries without gaining any knowledge or insight then there's no point in continuing. That said, if you're having fun and creating/achieving various goals I see no reason why you wouldn't want to continue through the ups and downs.

[Anonymous No.5957502]

God is an autistic permavirgin

[Anonymous No.5957523]

>>5951257

>Atheists
>complains about hell and says it's the main reason he's an atheist
>also a buddhist
>doesn't know there is a hell in buddhism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka

[Anonymous No.5957533]

>>595125

if god is a man, does that mean he has a cock. To be a man, you have to have a cock. what does he do with it? Does he have harem of goddesses or does he use it to impregnant 12 year olds like mary?

[Anonymous No.5957693]

>>5951525
>Saying something suchs isn't a fact, you imbecile,
That's what an optimist would say.

You have to be severely retarded not to realize how fucking badly optimized our existence is. Don't bring me useless platitudes such as "you can't feel good if you never feel bad", you obviously have nothing to add to the discussion.

Use your powers of imagination and it will soon become very clear that this is probably one of the worst of all possible worlds, not the best of them.

[Anonymous No.5957873]

>>5957107
Depends on whether one desires it or not.