/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5950792]

Is Houellebecq actually a good writer or do you lot just like him because he's anti-Islam?

[Anonymous No.5950800]

>>5950792
Why not both?

[Anonymous No.5950803]

hack

[Anonymous No.5950809]

>>5950803
salaam my friend

[Anonymous No.5950812]

>>5950803
As-salamu alaykum, my friend.

[Anonymous No.5950828]

>>5950792
>because he's anti-Islam

He is not even German: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93lF3CXTAL4

Get your shit together rest of Europe, we cant be the boogeyman the 3rd time in a row.

[Naseem No.5950832]

>>5950812
alaykum salam brother

[Anonymous No.5950840]

Shit prose, keeps writing the same book only with the characters becoming even worse losers each time, would have been a tripfag on /lit/. Being anti-islam is his only redeeming feature.

[Anonymous No.5950844]

>>5950792
Islam is a religion of peace

[Anonymous No.5950847]

>>5950828
But you are the Weltgeist in Stahlhelm , anon.

[Anonymous No.5950848]

>>5950803
>hack
>no substantiation
Nice.

[Anonymous No.5950920]

>>5950792
I always get this guy confused with Hocquenghem.

[Anonymous No.5950926]

it's unfortunate that he's anti-islam because he is a hack

[Anonymous No.5950947]

>>5950844

Yes, good dhimmi, give the land back to the fundamentalists

[Anonymous No.5950957]

This one piece of his seems kind of /lit/ or 4chan-ish to me. His writing reminds me a lot of the mentality of the people here.

http://www.houellebecq.info/popdivers.php?id=13
"Go right to the bottom of the absence of love. Cultivate self-hatred. Hatred of oneself, contempt for others. Hatred of others, contempt for oneself. Mix it all up. Form a synthesis. In the tumult of life, always be the loser. The universe is like a discotheque. Accumulate frustrations in great number. To learn to become a poet is to unlearn how to live...Develop in yourself a profound resentment toward life. This resentment is necessary for any veritable artistic creation.
Sometimes, it is true, life will appear to you as simply an incongruous experience. But your resentment should never be far, never out of reach—even if you choose not to express it. And return always to the origin, which is suffering.
When you provoke in others a mixture of horrified pity and contempt, you will know that you are on the right track. You can begin to write."

[Anonymous No.5950965]

I've read Whatever (extension...) twice and I could easily read it again right now. His writing is so up front and lacking in bullshit I find it enjoyable. He's a lovable misanthrope, which is way better than an edgy one. Also his misanthropy is based on a relatively plausible sociological theory, which is also superior to moralism or just plain dislike for other people.

[Anonymous No.5950967]

>>5950847

Well, the number of people marching against "Our Government/Europe" cocksucking Muslim dick grows exponentially, we either got some rational talking regarding Islam done or Germany goes out with a Bang not a Whimper, we are not in Britain or Spain here, I think one suicide bombing would be enough to eradicate Germany as a sovereign state forever in response to our response. I do not like this, but people are pissed, and they are already marching.

[Anonymous No.5951005]

>>5950967
>oh no you guys THIS time our stupid ravings about foreigners being scapegoats for some problem is REAL
How many fucking times does one population have to make the same mistake? Stalin should've just invaded the whole state and finished the job before the Americans and Brits relocated the Nazis.

[Anonymous No.5951007]

>>5950965
This.

[Anonymous No.5951010]

>>5950792
While not causally related, being an islamophobe is definitely indicative of being a shit writer.
>/lit/
>anti-islam
Stop pretending, /pol/.

[Anonymous No.5951017]

>>5950957
Yes he sounds like a real robot ready to shoot up his community college.

[Anonymous No.5951061]

>>5951005
Muslims aren't scapegoats anon, they're actually doing stuff.

[Anonymous No.5951068]

>>5951061
Show us on this Muhammad doll, anon.

[Anonymous No.5951072]

>>5950957
So that's what he's been doing.

[Anonymous No.5951086]

>>5951010
Islamophobia and being a writer go hand in hand, since you can't really write about anything under Sharia law. It's pretty sensible for artists to be against anything that prohibits art.

[Anonymous No.5951087]

>>5951061
>Jews aren't scapegoats anon, they're actually doing stuff.
>Homosexuals aren't scapegoats anon, they're actually doing stuff.
>Romani aren't scapegoats anon, they're actually-
Oh no, I hear you.

[Anonymous No.5951091]

He's shit because he's the embodiment of /r9k/.

[Anonymous No.5951099]

>>5951086
Good parrot.

[Anonymous No.5951100]

>>5951087
>Romani aren't scapegoats anon, they're actually doing stuff
that's actually true though

[Anonymous No.5951102]

>>5951087
I don't know about jews and I assume homosexuals bumming each other aren't actually affecting anyone, but... you've never had a Romani community settle next to where you lived, have you?

[Anonymous No.5951113]

>>5951086
>since you can't really write about anything under Sharia law

Yeah writing is definitely frowned upon by a tradition that has been carried mostly in writing for 1,000+ years.

[Anonymous No.5951115]

>>5951087
Gypsies really are criminal scum on a much larger basis than pretty much all other demographics and are hatred throughout the world for it though. Bad example.

[Anonymous No.5951135]

>>5951113
I'm not talking about Mohammed fan-fiction but about pretty much anything else.

[Anonymous No.5951139]

>>5951135
American power-hour is upon us, gents.

[Anonymous No.5951142]

>>5951135
>being this ignorant about the literary traditions of dozens of cultures/countries

[Anonymous No.5951149]

The man who met them at the bus station at Carpentras seemed weak and ill. The son of an Italian anarchist who immigrated to America in the 1920s, Francesco di Meola's life was a success story--at least in the financial sense. Like Serge Clément, the young Italian realized that the society emerging at the end of the Second World War would be radically different, and that many pursuits once considered marginal or elitist would become economically important. While Bruno's father was investing in plastic surgery, di Meola was becoming involved in the music business. He did not make as much money as many in the industry, but he made his fair share. At forty, like many people in California, he sensed a new movement, something deeper than simply a passing fad, calling for the sweeping away of Western civilization in its entirety. It was this insight which brought luminaries like Alan Watts, Paul Tillich, Carlos Castaneda, Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers to his villa at Big Sur. A little later, he had the privilege of meeting Aldous Huxley, the spiritual father of the movement. By then old and almost blind, Huxley paid him scant attention, but the meeting was to leave a profound impression on di Meola.

e himself was unclear as to the reason why he left California in 1970 and bought a property in Haute-Provence. Later, close to the end, he came to think that he had wanted, for some obscure reason, to die in Europe, though at the time, he was aware only of the most superficial reasons. The events of May '68 had impressed him, and as the hippie movement began to ebb in California, he turned his attention to the youth of Europe. Jane encouraged him in this. Young people in France were particularly repressed, a time bomb of resentment under the legacy of Gaullist patriarchy, which, according to Jane, a single spark would be enough to detonate. For some years now, Francesco's sole pleasure had been to smoke marijuana cigarettes with very young girls attracted by the spiritual aura of the movement and then fuck them among the mandalas and the smell of incense. The girls who arrived at Big Sur were, for the most part, stupid little WASP bitches, at least half of whom were virgins. Toward the end of the sixties the flow began to dwindle and he thought that perhaps it was time to go back to Europe. He found it strange that he thought of it as "going back," since he had left Italy when he was no more than five years old. If his father had been a militant revolutionary, he was also a cultivated man, an aesthete who loved his mother tongue. This had undoubtedly left its mark on Francesco. In truth, he had always thought of Americans as idiots.

>translations doesn't count!

I don't care, even if translation pales in comparison to original, Dostoevsky's quality shines through, whereas this is shit and I can't comprehend it being better in the original language unless the fidelity in translation is extremely low.

[Anonymous No.5951150]

>>5951115
Ahhhhh yeah, it's time for talking about how racism is actually totally right and cool when Europeans do it

[Anonymous No.5951151]

his face is so disgusting
i will never read him

[Anonymous No.5951155]

>>5951135

You're really dumb, man.

[Anonymous No.5951168]

>>5951115
I don't think they did anything to deserve the fucking death camps, friendo. The point is Germans have a stupid propensity of blaming minority populations for larger, unrelated economic and political problems and the recent islamphobic shit is not different.

[Anonymous No.5951173]

>>5951142
Goddamn, got to love this shit. Islam turns into a fucked up religion which can't produce any major art and you faggots reach back to fucking Avicenna and tell me about how great the religion is.

Christianity, a religion of some of the greatest artists, is mentioned and you reach back centuries to speak about the crusades.

[Anonymous No.5951180]

>>5951150
>>5951168
There would be no racial discrimination if there weren't any minorities...

so in a way Hitler was kind of an avant-garde civil rights pioneer

[Anonymous No.5951181]

>>5951173

Who's doing either of those things? Quit throwing a sperg tantrum.

[Anonymous No.5951182]

>>5951173
lol no one said any of those things

[Anonymous No.5951183]

>>5951149
It's not better in French. Even those who like him admit the writing is at best functional.

>>5951150
This isn't about Europe. Every population that has been confronted with gypsies detests them, though Romanians most of all.

[Anonymous No.5951184]

>>5951005
>How many fucking times does one population have to make the same mistake?

As long as people just cant leave Germany alone, we dont want no allahu snackbaring or bar mitzvaring here, we want to watch fußball and drink beer and export our superior engineering manufactures and pray to jesus every sunday in church and have lunch with our family consisting of mother+father+children, not some weird jew shit pushed down our throat, go away with all your transgender gay pride otherkin bullshit, if someone is gay he is free to live a normal life like anyone else, what is pushed is not the right to be with a man, but the expecations of gays to act like faggots, I am gay btw, and I hate nothing more than faggots, and I accept that adopting children as a gay couple is child abuse. Amen.

[Anonymous No.5951189]

>>5951184
is this pasta

[Anonymous No.5951201]

>>5951181
The post I replied to defended Islam on the basis of its cultural achievements. Modern Islam has little to do with the mystics of centuries past.

Don't use le sperg meme everytime you fail at reading comprehdnsion.

[Anonymous No.5951209]

>>5951201
i said traditions ie leading up to today, including modern writers

[Anonymous No.5951213]

If you guys read his interview with the Paris Review, you would know that he isn't explicitly anti-Islamic.
http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/01/02/scare-tactics-michel-houellebecq-on-his-new-book/
If /lit/s going to try and talk about contemporary authors, at least keep up with them.

[Anonymous No.5951215]

>>5951173
>He's never seen a Majid Majidi movie
>He's never seen an exhibit of contemporary or modern Islamic art
>He hasn't even read entry level shit like Hossein Nasr
That's just contemporary

[Anonymous No.5951223]

>>5951201
>The post I replied to defended Islam on the basis of its cultural achievements.

It attacked you on the basis of you having no clue what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.5951226]

>>5951209
Traditions which are only allowed to flourish in the least religious countries and which haven't produced much of worth despite a ridiculously large population to draw from?

[Anonymous No.5951237]

>>5951213
And an excerpt:
> I tried to put myself in the place of a Muslim, and I realized that, in reality, they are in a totally schizophrenic situation. Because overall Muslims aren’t interested in economic issues, their big issues are what we nowadays call societal issues. On these issues, obviously, they are very far from the left and even further from the Green Party. Just think of gay marriage and you’ll see what I mean, but the same is true across the board. And one doesn’t really see why they’d vote for the right, much less for the extreme right, which utterly rejects them. So if a Muslim wants to vote, what’s he supposed to do? The truth is, he’s in an impossible situation. He has no representation whatsoever. It would be wrong to say that this religion has no political consequences—it does. So does Catholicism, for that matter, even if the Catholics have been more or less marginalized. For those reasons, it seems to me, a Muslim party makes a lot of sense.

[Anonymous No.5951244]

>>5951215
>he says that's just as if he's named a significant amount
My sides, what's the Islamic population again?

[Anonymous No.5951246]

>>5951237
I agree, it’s not very realistic. For two reasons, actually. First—and this is the most difficult thing to imagine—the Muslims would have to succeed in getting along with each other. That would take someone extremely intelligent and with an extraordinary political talent, qualities that I give to my character Ben Abbes. But an extreme talent is, by definition, an unusual occurrence. But supposing he existed, the party could take off, but it would take longer than seven years. If we look at the way the Muslim Brotherhood has done it, we see regional networks, charities, cultural centers, prayer centers, vacation centers, health care, something not unlike what the Communist Party did. If you ask me, in a country where poverty will continue to spread, this party could attract a lot more than just “average” Muslims, if I can put it that way, because really there is no longer such a thing as an “average” Muslim since we now have people converting who are not at all of North African origin … But such a process would take several decades. The sensationalism of the media plays a negative role, really. For example, they loved the story of the guy living in a little village in Normandy, as French as he could be, not even from a broken home, who converted and went off to wage jihad in Syria. But we can reasonably assume that for every guy like that there are several dozen who convert and don’t go off to wage jihad in Syria, who don’t do anything of the kind. After all, one doesn’t wage jihad for the fun of it, that sort of thing only interests people who are strongly motivated by doing violence, which is to say, necessarily a minority.

[Anonymous No.5951249]

Looks like the Islamic Internet Defence Force has come to counter the Jewish Internet Defence Force presence /lit/ is so in denial about

[Anonymous No.5951262]

>>5951150
Racism against gypsies is warranted since the majority of them are cancers upon the earth and every other people inhabiting it. We're not talking about exceptions here but a culture that is inherently detrimental to anything in its environment.

>>5951168
>I don't think they did anything to deserve the fucking death camps, friendo.
I don't think there's any alternative for a group that refuses in every way to assimilate into their host culture as anything other than a destructive parasite. The more humane approach was forced sterilisation as the West has tried plenty in the last century, but it doesn't work as well.

>The point is Germans have a stupid propensity of blaming minority populations for larger, unrelated economic and political problems and the recent islamphobic shit is not different.
That may very well be, but that doesn't mean that Muslims aren't problematic and that a Germany without Muslims isn't a better place. They contribute nothing positive as a group. There's nothing about Muslims that enriches European countries.

[Anonymous No.5951267]

>>5951244
Are you like an expert of Islamic studies or something? If you are, why don't you think Iranian cinema compares to, say, Japanese or French in quality? What aren't they doing?

[Anonymous No.5951276]

Islam is foreign to Europe. People who think two historically and metaphysically opposed religion can coexist in a crowded space deserve the holy war they don't realize is going to fuck them up.

[Anonymous No.5951287]

>>5951267
>Iranian cinema compares to French
Almost got an honest reply out of me.
7/10, anon

[Anonymous No.5951290]

>>5951267
>>5951287
>Along with China, Iran has been lauded as one of the best exporters of cinema in the 1990s.[5] Some critics now rank Iran as the world's most important national cinema, artistically, with a significance that invites comparison to Italian neorealism and similar movements in past decades.[4] A range of international film festivals have honored Iranian cinema in the last twenty years. World-renowned Austrian filmmaker Michael Haneke and German filmmaker Werner Herzog, along with many film critics from around the world, have praised Iranian cinema as one of the world's most important artistic cinemas.[6]

But don't worry, that anon is smarter than film critics, he knows way more than everyone and can see through the problems that no one else can see, so you and everyone else are wrong.

[Anonymous No.5951297]

>>5951290
'That anon' referring to >>5951287 that fuckhead right there.

[Anonymous No.5951298]

>>5951237
Young Muslims, as with every other population, for the most part don't give a shit about gay marriage. Of course there are reactionary youth that are against it, but that's true in non-Muslim populations. Just look at /pol/ and it's nonsense about 'degeneracy'.

[Anonymous No.5951308]

>>5951297
Uhh you realize he could see your reply without that? At least lurk before you post, if you're coming here from Reddit or whatever...

[Anonymous No.5951313]

>>5951287
>he's actually this pleb
Wow.
Is your favorite movie Interstellar?

[Anonymous No.5951322]

>>5951290
Well I guess I'll just take this handful of opinions and accept them right?

And since the opinions of artists are so important, would you agree with Nabokov that Don Quixote is shit?

[Anonymous No.5951327]

>>5951308
I know that, because I was responding to 2 separate people in that comment, one I agree with and one I do not, I specified which of the two I did not agree with. It was pretty straightforward too.

[Anonymous No.5951328]

>>5951287
So you do have a problem with it? I'm interested, why do they fail collectively?

[Anonymous No.5951331]

>>5951290
yeah well anon is unbiased except when it comes to issues regarding sex
but critics now they just write shit for money

[Anonymous No.5951337]

>>5951322
At least Nabokov fucking read, I doubt you've even watched more than 2 Iranian films, if even that, and if you've even watched any films from Islamic countries. But don't worry, now you have cultural bias to wash away all the effort that would take; Now you can have an opinion without needing to back it up!

[Anonymous No.5951346]

>there are actually apologists for contemporary islamic "culture" on /lit/

I always thought /lit/ was pretty leftist, but apparently stone age imperialistic desert cults get a pass.

[Anonymous No.5951352]

>>5951328
I'm not saying they fail, I'm just saying it's a stupid effort to compare the whole of French cinema and the whole of Iranian cinema for obvious reasons, and it sure as hell doesn't say anything about the constraints Islam can place on art and society.

[Anonymous No.5951354]

Houellebecq has written some of the best novels of the past 25 years. The criticisms lobbied against him here are no more profound than the usual negative reviews he gets because of muh misogyny or muh racism. The kind of people who are so aggressive towards his works are the same kind of people who think Lovecraft is shit because he was racist. He's not a hack whatsoever, he's a great writer. Don't listen to the weenies here who get their panties in a twist over some distasteful subject matter or politically incorrect ideas like some fucking first-year women's studies undergrad.

[Anonymous No.5951359]

>>5951213
Interesting. The guy has mellowed. Doesn't make me want to read the book, to be honest.

[Anonymous No.5951360]

>>5951346
/lit/ doesn't like white people but loves their books. They will defend anyone who isn't white.

[Anonymous No.5951369]

>>5951346
we need to be critical of human culture, just not brown peoples' please

[Anonymous No.5951370]

>>5951337
So, you never answered my questions; should I take his word for it the same way your asking me to take the words of those people?

>implying I'm not from Turkey
No one implied that Islamic culture is incapable of producing art. But, if you think that the religion itself isn't bad for art, or that the output of Islamic art can be considered decent in comparison to the number of Muslims in the world, you're deluded.

[Anonymous No.5951380]

>>5951360
What? It's like we're not racist enough for you or something? I can't even tell you to run back to /pol/ because that's overused. sigh

[Anonymous No.5951388]

>>5951352
>I'm just saying it's a stupid effort to compare the whole of French cinema and the whole of Iranian cinema for obvious reasons
Why? Because you can't judge whole populations against each other? I actually agree, but, really, I'm just asking why you think Muslims can't make significant art when there's a very large population of very skilled artists in a nation that -really does- have a modern national shariah-based law that have been making significant art since this law was put into place.

[Anonymous No.5951395]

>>5951380
How can you even tell him to go back to /pol/ if they are the ones who try to find strict definitions for a "white race" to exclude others from it?

[Anonymous No.5951396]

>>5951322
>Well I guess I'll just take this handful of opinions and accept them right?

That seems to be how you came upon your current beliefs, so why not?

I don't understand why you're so determined to argue that Muslims don't produce art or whatever when they very obviously do.

http://bookzz.org/book/902096/0c8a52

[Anonymous No.5951407]

>>5951287
what has french cinema done in the last 30 years
ur embarrassing yourself m8

[Anonymous No.5951408]

Houellebecq's work doesn't pervasively deal with Islam nor is it integral to his core ideas, he wrote some characters and made some comments in interviews that don't hold it in the highest regard and somehow people make him out to be Geert Wilders. If anything the sacred cow that Houllebecq constantly assaults is Feminism and gender issues, he's just a guy who isn't fond of Islam and it's not a stance that holds significant importance in his work (until now at least, I understand his next release is something akin to The Camp of the Saints).

[Anonymous No.5951412]

>>5951388
>>5951396
Unfortunately, that's not what I was getting at. It seems like you should learn English before defending your culture online, m8.

[Anonymous No.5951414]

>>5951346
>in my infantile brain "islamic 'culture'" literally means "muh ayses, muh al-qwayda"
>"I thought Leftists made emotionalist jingoist 'clash of civilizations' generalizations because in some population there are reactionaries
You're thinking of the Right.

[Anonymous No.5951417]

At least there are some female contesters for Hitler 2.0, Godspeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cOvofgrF3w

[Anonymous No.5951420]

>>5951359
Because he has mellowed?

[Anonymous No.5951428]

>>5951412
>>5951173
>Goddamn, got to love this shit. Islam turns into a fucked up religion which can't produce any major art and you faggots reach back to fucking Avicenna and tell me about how great the religion is.
Show me where I got my English wrong, buddy.

[Anonymous No.5951429]

>>5951352
>sure as hell doesn't say anything about the constraints Islam can place on art and society.

what exactly do you think is going on in iran if you think there's no control placed on cinema produced there

[Anonymous No.5951433]

>>5951369
I agree, but I get the idea it's the brown people that get a pass more often.

It's one of the most subtle and deeply ingrained forms of racism: Allowing brown people their dumb beliefs because you (often unknowingly and unaware) hold them to lower standards.

[Anonymous No.5951451]

>>5951433
You're projecting, or at least making a false inference.

[Anonymous No.5951462]

>France is living in fear. The country is roiled by mysterious troubles. Regular episodes of urban violence are deliberately obscured by the media.

This is fiction? Sounds like an accurate account of the present day.

[Anonymous No.5951463]

>>5951346

'Apologists' makes it sound like we're responding to critics who knew the subject matter reasonably well. That isn't what's happening here.

[Anonymous No.5951480]

>>5951463
Yes it is. You don't know it better than they do. Your opinions are just as wrong as theirs. The fact that you think otherwise doesn't change a thing. You're still defending an imperialist death cult that has terrorism and murder-suicude built into its most basic narrative.

[Anonymous No.5951502]

>>5951414
No I'm not, I'm thinking of the good old left that didn't afraid of anything and slaughtered clergy by the thousands.

[Anonymous No.5951511]

>>5951412

I'm American and I only made one of those posts.

[Anonymous No.5951517]

>>5951463
>'Apologists'
That's exactly what you're incapable of being, as your knowledge of film seems to be limited to a wikipedia article (the first paragraph no less).

Where is your Tolstoy? Your Joyce? Shakespeare? What about your great polymaths? I won't deny that your culture has produced some decent things, but it's sub-par overall. There are single works by Western philosophers worth more than your entire culture's contribution to though. Think over that.

[Anonymous No.5951545]

>>5951517
Probably untranslated, ignored by Western critics and readers, and lacking in the popular support and tons of scholarship that many Western works are given that bring them the status they have? There are lots of amazing works in the West that have little to no audience in either public or academic context. I'm not saying that Tolstoy or Joyce aren't amazing, they're both some of my favorite writers, and I adore tons of Western philosophy, but I still acknowledged the importance popularity and distribution with regards to the big works of the 'Western Canon'.

[Anonymous No.5951547]

>>5951480
>You don't know it better than they do.

But I do, you silly twat. It's a huge part of what I study. I only get involved in these silly discussions in the first place because they concern something that I'm familiar with.

You know what I don't do? Shitpost about things that I don't know about.

[Anonymous No.5951574]

>>5951517

I'm not the one posting about Iranian film, it isn't my culture, and referring to a single 'Islamic culture' doesn't make much sense if we're talking about contemporary art produced by Muslims.

[Anonymous No.5951583]

>>5951420
Yeah. It's not that I disagree with his assessment that Muslims are closer to catholics and other conservatives than to the left, which makes perfect sense, but an irrealistic premise treated long-form and REASONABLY? That doesn't sound all too appealing.

[Anonymous No.5951584]

>>5951547
you have to be a good little dhimmi to have such subject matter be a "huge part" of what you study in the first place.

[Anonymous No.5951588]

>>5951502
No, no, you're definitely thinking of the Right.

[Anonymous No.5951595]

>>5951213
The part where the interview delves into racism and Islamophobia is a riot.

[Anonymous No.5951598]

>>5951276

>Islam is foreign to Europe.

But Islam has existed in Europe since the 8th century.

Also, Europe, even without any Muslims or other Asian/African migrants, is far too diverse to be homogenized culturally and into a box known as "Europe" that is indefinitely juxtaposed by what is "not Europe" as this supposes an isolated development and solidarity which has never existed in the history of a continent that has been wracked by conflicts between cultural, racial and religious parties within itself since forever. Even when the Catholic Church dominated Europe, the religious and cultural diversity which served as both a source of enrichment and conflict was still there. But the unity that was brought by the Church's domination was never seen in nationalist terms. The domain of the papacy was not limited to Europe but extended as far as it could feasibly stretch to the four corners of the earth. This unity was a religious unity, not a secular nationalist unity based on a conception of Europeanness devised by people picking and choosing what elements of European culture were the "most European" according to their own desires. Islam was rejected in spite of living on its doorsteps in Europe for centuries because it was not Christian, not because it was "not European"

European nationalism is pretty deceptive and often just an expression of the trends of thought and the sense of values of only some segments of European society masquerading as philanthropists. If Europe rejects Islam, it should be on the basis of rational and logical principles, not based on illusory conceptions of a European identity that have been cherrypicked by social elites or the ignorant masses to create an "us and them" mentality that excuses them from exercising their brains.

[Anonymous No.5951602]

>>5951584

>You actually KNOW about this subject that I'm trying to talk about? Fag.

[Anonymous No.5951607]

>>5951595
I forgot about that, and you made me read it again. Holy fuck, best part of the interview by a long shot, especially when he's so exasperated he refers to the interviewer by name. I'm sure that both of them knew the interviewer was just trying to get good responses out of him, and it worked really well.

[Anonymous No.5951615]

>>5951598
>But Islam has existed in Europe since the 8th century.

No, Islam has been trying to conquer Europe since the 8th century, and since the 8th century Europeans have been resisting.

[Anonymous No.5951619]

>>5951598
Jesus Christ, I'm actually a leftist and I have no problem with Islam, but this sounds retarded. Imagine someone saying that European culture isn't foreign to central Africa because it's existed there for centuries now. If you want to be part of another country, do it graciously. Don't fucking worm your way in there kindly, and then, when you have a sizable population, start with this shit about Islam was European all along. It's really pathetic m8.

That's why I can at least respect the American insistence that foreigners speak English. First world countries only want immigrants, but immigrants NEED them.

[Anonymous No.5951622]

>>5951602
someone who dedicates an important part of his life to studying muslim culture has a vested interest in said culture.

your opinion on its merit is about as worthwhile as lacan's opinion on lacanian psychoanalysis

[Anonymous No.5951628]

>>5951517
Do you think even 1% of Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Malay, Urdu, Azeri, etc., etc., are available in translation? ARE you an Islamic studies major and are aware of the real lack of depth amongst Muslim arts? How else could you say "it's sub-par overall"?

>>5951584
>If you don't agree with my position of ignorance because you have a position of knowledge then you're brainwashed by them
1000/10, expert baiter, well done.

You're going to use the same "lyl dhimmi" bullshit to counter but anyone with half of a brain could see nothing in this post is a defense, but a criticism against these idiotic arguments from ignorance.

[Anonymous No.5951629]

>>5951598
>But Islam has existed in Europe since the 8th century.
It's existed in many places which it has subjugated, yes.

[Anonymous No.5951630]

>>5951619
>I'm actually a leftist and I have no problem with Islam
>i'm actually a leftist but i have no problem with an ideology that seeks to establish a global theocracy

really?

[Anonymous No.5951640]

>>5951630
Well yes. I realize that there are various interpretations in each and every religion, so I'm not quick to make generalizations.

[Anonymous No.5951660]

>>5951640
There are no interpretations within Islam where Muhammad wasn't the prophet of God and didn't do things right.

There is also no interpretation within Islam where Muhammad didn't go out conquering to carve out a caliphate.

There is also no interpretation within Islam where Sharia law is wrong.

[Anonymous No.5951664]

>>5951640
Interpretation is irrelevant, one can't deny that ideally, Islam, as well as Christianity, seeks to convert the entire world.

[Anonymous No.5951669]

>>5951619
>Imagine someone saying that European culture isn't foreign to central Africa because it's existed there for centuries now.
I don't necessarily disagree but there's kind of a fuzzy claim here, since there's no cut-off for when something is 'foreign' or not, or why it matters. Maybe the idea of 'foreignness' isn't worth even discussing, at least with regards to first world colonialist and imperialist powers, since there's way more going on than Rightist nutjobs screaming
>All we did was make their own lands virtually unlivable, why do the brown people keep coming?!?!
It's beyond pathetic. Want the Mozlems out? Get a time machine and prevent all Western meddling on foreign soils. Europeans (including Americans) made your beds, now you'll lie in them.

[Anonymous No.5951677]

>>5951669
*... than suggested by Rightist ...

[Anonymous No.5951681]

>>5951622

>A person who studies something obviously can't be trusted to analyze it.

Brilliant.

[Anonymous No.5951683]

>>5951681
At least we have a good explanation for why /pol/ is what it is.

[Anonymous No.5951686]

>>5951072
whatever happened to this guy, i mean he's all fuck'd up

[Anonymous No.5951688]

>>5950844

[Anonymous No.5951695]

>>5951681
Except he said that a person who studies something can't be trusted to comment on it's importance, as they have a bias towards it. You should take some classes which would revoke your ability to comment on the English language.

[Anonymous No.5951701]

>>5951669
>now you'll lie in them
Which bed did I make? Your claim of inherited sin reeks of Christian resentiment reapplied by the browns peoples who think have a claim to every country which isn't shit.

[Anonymous No.5951707]

>>5951669
>It's beyond pathetic. Want the Mozlems out? Get a time machine and prevent all Western meddling on foreign soils. Europeans (including Americans) made your beds, now you'll lie in them.

Expect the notion that everything wrong with the world is due to le evil Western imperialism is a fucking crock of shit.

Since you think this is the case, explain to me what the fuck Scandinavians ever did to Somalia to warrant mass immigration from there or what Germans did to Turkey.

It's a flawed line of thinking typical of those ridden with Western guilt who are filled with self-loathing.

[Anonymous No.5951708]

>>5951669
>Western meddling on foreign soils.
I see, do I know have a right to Islamic soil? How many of my ancestors did they slaughter in cold blood? They surely owe me more than just land, at least according to the rules of this absurd conversation.

[Anonymous No.5951715]

>>5951669
>Europe isn't one thing
>EUROPEANS MUST LIE IN THEIR COLLECTIVE BED
lol
Also, you implied Islam wasn't foreign. If that the case, the oppressors were oppressing themselves right? Or, at least, muslims are just as guilty for European imperialism?

[Anonymous No.5951723]

Le fait qu'Houellebecq est considéré comme un bon auteur en France est la signification de la mort de la littérature française.

Ce qui et affolant est que d'autres auteurs français contemporains sont bien pire.

Rate my French. I studied it for a year now.

[Anonymous No.5951731]

>>5951701
So when someone points out the historical and contemporary fucking over (or just creation) of the third world by Euros it's "resentiment" [sic] and all fury in your teapot, but you can make whatever sweeping generalizations of whatever non-Euro population you want, in this case teh Mozlems? That sounds like "resentiment" to me.

[Anonymous No.5951745]

>>5951731
If only I were making any claims about Muslims and not just pointing out absurdities in your thought process :(

[Anonymous No.5951753]

>>5951669
>It's beyond pathetic. Want the Mozlems out? Get a time machine and prevent all Western meddling on foreign soils. Europeans (including Americans) made your beds, now you'll lie in them.
Or, you know, just throw them out or make them disappear.

Which is the alternative that is becoming more and more likely every day. I don't see how this can end pretty.

[Anonymous No.5951760]

>>5951731
Also just realized you were pointing out a spelling error in your anger...you should really calm down and get off le 4chinz/

[Anonymous No.5951761]

>>5951723
houellebecq isn't appreciated because he is a lyrical wordsmith, anon, but his subject matter is pretty on point. he's also funny.

[Anonymous No.5951771]

Hey, guys, I just realized something
>/lit/
>/literature/
>literature=books
>books=lets talk about them
>this board=NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT BOOKS!

[Anonymous No.5951772]

>>5951723
Je suis un etudiant de francais, aussi.

Est "comme" necessaire dans cette phrase?

[Anonymous No.5951786]

>>5951701
>Which bed did I make?
I think he said it: colonialism and imperialism.
>>5951707
>Expect the notion that everything wrong with the world is due to le evil Western imperialism is a fucking crock of shit.
>this nigga is serious
>>5951708
>doesn't understand what national borders and sovereignty are
>thinks the War Against the Middle East isn't his generation's war that he's responsible for, has to go back to "his ancestors" for some kind of reversed slight, and not even equivalent
>>5951715
>I don't necessarily disagree
Try reading what he said, kid.

/pol/ internet defense force at its best.

[Anonymous No.5951814]

>>5951723
>est la signification de la mort
is wrong or at best awkward. "signifie la mort" would be correct.
>pires
Other than that quite good.

>>5951772
>"comme" necessaire dans cette phrase?
Oui

[Anonymous No.5951818]

>>5951615

But Europeans shouldn't resist Christianity which didn't even originate in Europe?

>>5951619

>Imagine someone saying that European culture isn't foreign to central Africa because it's existed there for centuries now.

Except that's not what I'm saying at all.

>Don't fucking worm your way in there kindly, and then, when you have a sizable population, start with this shit about Islam was European all along. It's really pathetic m8.

My point was that the conception of a European national identity people are usually referring to is rather fallacious at best and dishonest at worst. Like with most forms of nationalism, the question arises "Which elements of European history and culture should we accept or reject? And who has the authority to say what these are for everyone else?" I'm not singling out European nationalism here though, this is a problem with nationalism as an ideology itself. Nationalism often ignores the historical internal diversity of a given area in terms of culture, language and thought and then brands those who don't meet the standard of national purity of culture and thought as against the abstract concept of "the nation," and thus inevitably results in the persecution of minority and majority populations who do not meet the standards enshrined by only one group regardless of the real merit or lack thereof of these groups' own ways of living and thinking. By that token, it can also result in the subjugation of the intellect to a purely sentimental conception of what it means to be European, African, Arab, etc.

Plus, if you are rejecting elements of your own nation's culture or intellectual currents on the basis of rationality or universal religious principles that should apply to all peoples, I don't know if you can really claim to be a nationalist at that point because of the fact that you are admitted that the national character doesn't determine the worth of an idea or custom and you don't embrace all the contradicting elements in one's national history and culture as equally valid. The only way I've seen nationalists weave out of this conundrum is by wedding nationalism to racism.

For the record, I'm not against nationalism itself, but some of the premises on which people build a sense of nationalism tend to be faulty.

>>5951629

Right, because everybody in Europe chose Christianity freely without any incentive or force from Christian political domination, amirite?

[Anonymous No.5951819]

>>5951745
Perhaps not explicitly if that's your first post in this thread (I doubt it) but if you're responding because you take issue with the criticism of "rightist nutjobs screaming All we did was make their own lands virtually unlivable, why do the brown people keep coming?!?!" then you were at least supporting claims about Muslims, weren't you? Maybe you should calm down and follow the conversation closer. :)

[Anonymous No.5951825]

>>5951660

There is (and always has been) disagreement over which reports about Muhammad's life and actions can be considered authentic. There is no single or objective understanding of what constitutes his example.

There is (and can be) no single or objective understanding of how that example should be understood in contexts far removed from Muhammad's own environment.

There is no single or objective understanding of which source texts and legal methodologies properly constitute Shari'ah.

A scriptural religion with lots of followers in lots of different places facing lots of different problems will always produce lots of different interpretations.

[Anonymous No.5951844]

>>5951819
Unfortunately, the absurdities still stand and whataboutism does not a logical argument make. :^)

[Anonymous No.5951848]

>>5951695
>Except he said that a person who studies something can't be trusted to comment on it's importance

This is hardly different from what I quoted. It's certainly no less stupid.

>as they have a bias towards it.

And you don't, huh, dumbass?

[Anonymous No.5951861]

>>5951844
Unfortunately, merely stating something is an absurdity because it makes you feel ressentiment doesn't make it so. 8)

[Anonymous No.5951867]

>>5951861
I already stated why with my first response you evil bastard...

wait a sec r u trolling me?

[Anonymous No.5951870]

>>5951695
>>5951844
Why can't e/pol/a just hang it up when they've been outdone?

[Anonymous No.5951873]

the islam=no great art! guy is too stupid to argue with, please love yourselves and refrain (or don't, whatever)
he's ignored every good point (as in, every fact posted itt) and clearly knows nothing about anything

[Anonymous No.5951876]

>>5951873
>>5951870
>>5951848
Don't be obvious with your samefagging mate :)))

[Anonymous No.5951877]

>>5951814
Merci. Je te sucerais la bite si je peux pour te remercier de m'avoir corrigé.

Btw should I say pour m'avoir corrigé or de m'avoir corrigé?

Les deux se disent ?

[Anonymous No.5951888]

>>5951867
>gibberish ranting about the other persons' feelings and intentions with no actual comment of the content you responded to
>reasons
0/10: you never fooled me, I've just been killing time. (◡ ‿ ◡ ✿)

[Anonymous No.5951900]

>>5951876

[Anonymous No.5951901]

>>5951876

Don't be butthurt.

[Anonymous No.5951921]

>>5951876
>>5951873

my last post was about iranian cinema and how anon said the most incorrect and laughable thing about it

[Anonymous No.5951940]

Another day, another topic with /pol/ getting BTFO. Now if only they'd leave.

[Anonymous No.5951972]

>>5951921
>>5951940
>>5951901
>>5951900
I told you not to be so obvious :))))))

[Anonymous No.5951986]

>>5951877
"de" is preferrable here, "pour" could be used if it was followed by an object/noun ("remercier pour la correction")

[Anonymous No.5952016]

>>5951786
>Expect the notion that everything wrong with the world is due to le evil Western imperialism is a fucking crock of shit.
>this nigga is serious

Is that all you have to say?

How about Ethiopia, is that country riddled with poverty because of colonialism? Oops.

Hey, remember when they ended colonial rule in Rhodesia and Zimbabwe turned out to be a tremendous success?

[Anonymous No.5952021]

>>5950792
>>5950800
He's a good goy

[Anonymous No.5952032]

>>5951818
Whether it originated in Europe or not isn't the point. Not everything which built Western civilization originated in Europe. But Europeans had already adopted Christianity for centuries by the time Islam came around.

And for the record, Chistendom =//= Europe. North Africa and the Levant was Christian long before it was Muslim. Europe was simply the limit of which Islam could stretch its tentacles. You see the same occurrence in Asia the farther East it spread.

[Anonymous No.5952039]

>>5952016
>How about Ethiopia, is that country riddled with poverty because of colonialism? Oops.
>Hey, remember when they ended colonial rule in Rhodesia and Zimbabwe turned out to be a tremendous success?
>this nigga IS serious

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5952056]

Houellebec is terrible, goddamn Fifty Shades level of writing. But he does flip the bird the to the French bending over backward to appease Islam (and yes, making hate speech laws about talking shit about a religion is bending over backward), and for that he plays an important role-.

[Anonymous No.5952062]

I can't decide what I would enjoy more, seeing SJWs get buttreckt by the islamic patriarchy or seeing muslims get buttrekt by militant western decadence.

[Anonymous No.5952108]

>>5952016
>How about Ethiopia, is that country riddled with poverty because of colonialism? Oops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Italo-Ethiopian_War

I don't think it helped.

[Anonymous No.5952114]

>>5952032
>But Europeans had already adopted Christianity for centuries by the time Islam came around.

You make it sound as if the process was anywhere near complete. Charlemagne was force-converting Saxons at the same time that the Umayyads were taking over Iberia.

[Anonymous No.5952196]

>>5952016
>How about Ethiopia, is that country riddled with poverty because of colonialism? Oops.

Because of gommunists supported by the Soviets, mostly

[Anonymous No.5952236]

>>5952032

>But Europeans had already adopted Christianity for centuries by the time Islam came around.

I didn't say they didn't, but should Europe reject Islam on the basis of national heritage or on the basis of reason. If the former, then what are the limits and who sets them for what Europeans may accept something or reject it. How long do foreign elements have to stay in an area before they are no longer considered "foreign"? If Islam has been in Europe since the 8th century and has been practiced by a mixture of migrant and indigenous populations in Europe for that long, should it not be considered just as "European" as Christianity which is not completely European in its own origin? Or is Islam not European or less European because it's only been in Europe for close to 1400 years instead of close to 2000? If yes, then shouldn't paganism be considered more European than both Christianity and Islam and both the latter religions seen as incursions of elements and ideas foreign to Europe which need be rejected?

The point is what the basis is for rejection, a subjective sense of "foreignness" or the reasonableness or philosophical merit of the action or idea? If you're going to say that something doesn't need to European in origin to be accepted as by Europeans, then you're kind of undermining your argument when you say that a basis for Islam's rejection by Europe should be its foreignness to Europe and what you're implying is that Muslims who have lived in the Westernmost regions of the former Ottoman Empire and trace their ancestry back to the original European inhabitants of these regions and have practiced Islam for centuries are behaving less European. But then again, the question, what are the standards of being a "true European," and who has the right to impose these standards and if the historic association with European ethnic groups is not enough for a cultural custom or religion to be considered Europeans, what is? Reason? If that's the case, then we're no longer talking about national identity unless one is suggesting that only pure members of a certain race or ethnic group within the diverse millieu of Europe can be expected to exercise the necessary reasoning power in question.

>And for the record, Chistendom =//= Europe.

That's been my point this whole time, except what I'm emphasizing is that the conception of "Europe" as a cultural identity would have been foreign for most Europeans throughout history who didn't really live in a world of nation-states and continental boundaries but rather drew boundaries between themselves and others on the basis of language, tribe and religion, which could often be subject to change due to conquests, marriage alliances and other processes of diffusion and competition. This is actually true for most of the world before the modern era, including the Islamic and Chinese world. So I have to question those who believe they alone can set the rules and opposition for what is or isn't European.

[Anonymous No.5952356]

>>5950792
his writing is very mediocre (if not appalling) and the content is nothing to brag off. I do not think you need to read him to be enlighten.

[Anonymous No.5952398]

>>5951370
you're deluded if you think anyone will ever love you or care when you stop existing

[Anonymous No.5952509]

>>5952236
fuck up nigga go back to art school

[Anonymous No.5952688]

If you read his latest interview in The Paris Review you will see he is not anti-Islam at all.

[Anonymous No.5952922]

>>5951087
All of those are parasites

[Anonymous No.5952928]

>>5951395
That allready exists and we use it in medicine to develop specialized medicine. Sometimes only one race gets the added benefits though. Example, blacks and asthma

[Anonymous No.5953078]

>>5950792
We love Islam, though.

[Anonymous No.5953120]

>>5952928
What are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.5954121]

Most people like him because he's "that feel when not GF" 99% of the time. He's the writer of beta if there ever was one. Plus he's borderline psychopath and in recent times looks like a HIV patient.

[Anonymous No.5954128]

>>5950792
Who isn't anti-Islam? You think the people who converted to Islam rather than having their heads chopped off are "pro-Islam"?

[Anonymous No.5954222]

>>5954128

Who now...?

[Anonymous No.5954236]

>>5954222
Have you never taken a history class? When Muslims conquer you, they give you a choice: convert or die. If you're a Jew or a Christian, you can pay a tax instead. Otherwise, it's submit to Allah or get your head chopped off.

[Anonymous No.5954344]

>>5954236

You're retarded if actually believe that this is how things happened. Unless you were a pagan Arab, the early Muslim conquerors mostly didn't give a fuck what religion you were. They didn't even start taking regular taxes from subject populations until about the turn of the 8th century. Even after that, most Umayyad rulers showed little interest in converting non-Arabs, and had difficulty accommodating people who did want to convert for whatever reason.

Force-converting entire populations when you conquer them isn't practicable. The Arabs were able to expand and hold new territories because, in general, they didn't interfere with the people they conquered or burden them to the point of provoking rebellion.

[Anonymous No.5954458]

>>5954121
This is very much to the point. Although he does have his moments. Also, "Platform" is a decent book.

His whining about how sex is not distributed fairly is really funny.

[Anonymous No.5954461]

The recent posts about him have been edgelords and trolls. I was posting about him on here before it was cool. I also see My Twisted World as legitimate and important literature.

[Anonymous No.5954465]

>>5954128
>Who isn't anti-Islam?
Anyone with more than half a brain and can think for themselves, as opposed to emotional, reactionary generalizations.

[Anonymous No.5954473]

>>5950792
Wait. Is his wife a Houllebecq girl?

[Anonymous No.5954475]

>>5954236
>asks if the anon took an history class when he clearly hasn't

[Anonymous No.5954655]

>>5952688

He's really mellowed out a lot. I wonder if it has to do with his mother dying? Seems like half of his controversial public statements were just attempts to piss her off.

[Anonymous No.5955813]

>>5954344
This is bullshit though, maybe it's true for the earliest forms of Islam, idk.

The Muslims were most certainly cruel to their minority populations. One British historian, writing about the Turks, said that to be a Greek or an Armenian in Turkey was to be treated as a dog.

[Anonymous No.5955955]

>This is bullshit though

What part of it is bullshit, specifically?

>The Muslims were most certainly cruel to their minority populations.

Some minority populations under some Muslim rulers were treated poorly; others were not. In both cases, treatment of minorities was motivated more often by practical considerations than by ideological ones.

>One British historian, writing about the Turks, said that to be a Greek or an Armenian in Turkey was to be treated as a dog.

And during certain periods of Ottoman history he was probably right. By and large, though, that isn't really true. Greeks in Istanbul were a powerful commercial elite for many years; important positions in the government were traditionally reserved for them. Armenian Christians were (eventually) given autonomy as a community separate from the Greeks, who regarded them as heretics. The Ottoman system of managing minority religions was usually a pretty square deal for everyone involved. It had to be, or the empire wouldn't have been able to maintain rule over a ~50% non-Muslim population for centuries. Greeks and Armenians were really only treated awfully in the late 19th-early 20th centuries, when the ailing empire was trying to stamp out nationalistic movements among them.

[Anonymous No.5956340]

>>5951598
sqawk sqwak goes the cultural marxist

if you can't put something into your own words you don't understand it

sqwak sqwak goes the indoctrinated liberal

[Anonymous No.5956380]

>>5956340
this post gave me conservatism

[Anonymous No.5956665]

>>5954344
don't care enough to elaborate but for the record this is not true. okay for the most part they technically didn't force-convert, just persecute

[Anonymous No.5956718]

>>5951287
The contemporary french stuff is pretty uninteresting from my understanding. The House is Black alone is better than all of Godards pseudo intellectual shite anyway

[Anonymous No.5956726]

>>5956665
>don't care enough to elaborate but for the record this is not true.

Kek. Yes it fucking is.

[Anonymous No.5956750]

>>5956665

>don't care enough to elaborate

None of us do. Maybe we should all stop bitching at each other

[Anonymous No.5956753]

>>5956726
>>5956665

the joys of historiography. I am intrigued and confused

[Anonymous No.5958441]

>>5951005
>This is what American starbucks socialists actually believe

[Anonymous No.5958533]

>>5950967
>tfw Germans are only protesting in Dresden, where no actual Muslims live

it's just DDR poorfags clinging to any ideology that let's them keep any pride without having to do any actual work. Other germans are too busy ridding the "kings-of-europe" wave to care about immigrants.

[Anonymous No.5958599]

>>5958533
east german guy here
it's not because they are poor, it's because they are dumb
also yes they are poor, but that also is because they are dumb