/lit/ - Literature

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Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:44:58 2015 No.5945905 [Reply] [Original]

Gonna keep it /lit/ related: have you guys read this book? Is gender learned or biologically determined? What about transgendered individuals?

How do you think performativity theory could explain the case of David Reimer, aka, The Boy With No Penis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUTcwqR4Q4Y

Let the civilized discussion begin!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:47:45 2015 No.5945913 heeeere weeee goooooo

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:50:34 2015 No.5945923
File: 100 KB, 800x600, judith-butler-1997-3-gerald-zoerner.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I used to like Butler until I read a thing of hers wherein she argues that the move from a structuralist account in which capital is understood to structure social relations in relatively homologous ways to a view of hegemony in which power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation brought the question of temporality into the thinking of structure, and marked a shift from a form of Althusserian theory that takes structural totalities as theoretical objects to one in which the insights into the contingent possibility of structure inaugurate a renewed conception of hegemony as bound up with the contingent sites and strategies of the rearticulation of power.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:52:17 2015 No.5945931 Zizek, a friend of hers, thinks she's on point but fails to do anything but describe the existing order

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:52:35 2015 No.5945933 Is the guy who wanted to show me the laws regarding homosexuals or trans people in the Balkans in here? (Also the assault statistics) If so, I'd still be happy if you could provide them.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Jan 3 19:55:19 2015 No.5945945 i wonder why lgbt, pol and other boards constantly want to conquer lit

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:56:33 2015 No.5945949 File: 1.51 MB, 250x250, adfasdgsdg.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5945923

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:57:12 2015 No.5945956 >>5945923 What are the repetitions and rearticulations she's talking about here that create the contingent or temporal element. Also that was very difficult to read

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:58:59 2015 No.5945961 gender is a performance, biologically-assigned sex is trivia

evidente saging !trap0OylHY Sat Jan 3 19:59:39 2015 No.5945965

>>5945945
It's not like that, if you compare the people baiting this kind of threads are in any sense superior presenting ideas than anything you'd find in /lgbt/. It's just a really pressent topic in 4chan and after a while people take the things they read as law.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:00:09 2015 No.5945968 >>5945923 garbage paragraph prosaically

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:01:02 2015 No.5945972

>>5945905
I'm gonna greentext the story of David Reimer for y'all:

>baby twins born, no shoes for sale
>Parents: "Circumcission: Great Idea!"
>but baby dick got phimosis, complications arise
>Doctor says "Cauterize!"
>baby dick 1 scorched to death, fucked up beyond repair, baby dick 2 no problem
>doctor's great idea #2: raise burnt-dick as a girl, no one will know the difference, not even himself
>9 years of wearing frilly dresses and peeing through hole in abdomen
>"Mom, I'm tired of wearing pink dresses, I wanna play football!"
>"What are you talking about, Davidette? Let's dance ballet!"
>doctor does some weird pedo shit, including photographing both siblings nude pretending to copulate
>Fastforward 30 years: One brother schizophrenic, overdoses on antidepressants, the other brother decides to check out what a sawed-off shotgun tastes like
>T-Thanks, gender-fluid sciene. Any more theories we could put to the test?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:01:23 2015 No.5945974 >>5945905 penis=boy vagina=girl If you feel like you're somewhere in between you're either mentally ill or a delusional pervert. /thread

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:01:48 2015 No.5945975 >>5945961 Is Butler's notion of "performatives" derived from the JL Austin idea? Because if so, she completely misunderstands him.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:01:49 2015 No.5945976 File: 70 KB, 350x522, 1407452481922.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >masculinity is dead, men who want to be men are primitive hedonist scum! >but if a woman wants to be a man, he's a real hero!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:04:16 2015 No.5945988 I'm pretty sure gender is determined by chromosomes or something like that, so maybe you mean gender roles.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:11:14 2015 No.5946016 >>5945988 no, gender is purely a construction of our society, you ignorant cis male! just don't ask why you need physical surgery & hormone replacement therapy to change a social construct. we're still working on that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:12:15 2015 No.5946019 >>5945975 but you don't.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:15:56 2015 No.5946029

>>5945975
No, anon. The "performative" in their two theories are very different. Not related at all. For Butler, it means that gender is not something defined by culture or biology, but rather by your actions or performances. That is, you are not born male/female, instead you perform as male sometimes, perform as female other times, etc. Gender is what you make of it, basically.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:18:51 2015 No.5946041

>>5946029
Carrying out actions has nothing to do with biological gender. This deplorable notion genders have to "act a certain way" is utterly barbaric and intolerant. Transexuals are the most vehement bigots in history, going so far as to drastically alter themselves for their puritanical gender ideologies. Despicable.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:19:12 2015 No.5946043 File: 136 KB, 400x400, 1354035946009.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5945923 Woah nigga hold up. You are going WAY over the what the fuck are you talking about meter.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:28:45 2015 No.5946083 File: 890 KB, 249x360, Beta.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5945923

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:29:06 2015 No.5946086

>>5946041
not biological gender, that doesn't exist in her world.

This is wikipedia: Butler characterizes gender as the effect of reiterated acting, one that produces the effect of a static or normal gender while obscuring the contradiction and instability of any single person's gender act. This effect produces what we can consider to be "true gender," a narrative that is sustained by "the tacit collective agreement to perform, produce, and sustain discrete and polar genders as cultural fictions is obscured by the credibility of those productions – and the punishments that attend not agreeing to believe in them."[1]

It's kinda saying that by constantly acting one way, we tend to crystalize each gender into those typical actions, without realizing that actually 'gender' is very fluid and unstable. Meaning, I could snap and go gay any second. Watch out.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:31:44 2015 No.5946102 >>5945923 Capital is simply a term describing assets used in the production process, whatever that may be. Don't misuse words.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:32:33 2015 No.5946109 >>5945972 >doctor does some weird pedo shit, including photographing both siblings nude pretending to copulate >T-Thanks, gender-fluid sciene. Really? Gender-theory is at fault here? This seems like a too fucked up case to be considered as evidence

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:32:35 2015 No.5946110 >>5946086 What is gender if not biological?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:34:04 2015 No.5946118 >>5945923 brought to you by: po-mo generator (seriously, I can tell)

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:36:41 2015 No.5946132

We have talked to hell and beyond about that like two days ago.

The concepts of masculine and feminine are partly rooted in biology, being determined by sex, partly arbitrary, being shaped by society.

The all-or-nothing approach is pure ideology and has been thoroughly disproven.

disgustingly !trap0OylHY Sat Jan 3 20:37:28 2015 No.5946135

>>5946110
Are men and women expected to do the same in every society? Every man has the same definition of being manly? Does everyone think that muscular men are the manliests or does everyone think they are the most insecure? Are we born knowing how to behave? Do babies act manly or femininly?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:37:38 2015 No.5946137

>>5946109
No, not that bit right there, but rather Dr. Money's whole approach.

Money was a prominent proponent of the "theory of Gender Neutrality"—that gender identity developed primarily as a result of social learning from early childhood and that it could be changed with the appropriate behavioral interventions. (wikipedia)

Doesn't that sound just pretty close to "performative theory of gender"?

I'm a psychologist, we studied this case back in school, read tons of studies on it. Not blaming gender theorists at all, my greentext was just for fun. All I'm saying is, Dr. Money was fucked up and he fucked up the kids.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:39:25 2015 No.5946143 >>5946132 So much this. It's like a small instance of Nature-VS-Nurture, and that has been proven a false dichotomy. It's a bit of both, sometimes more of one, sometimes more of the other.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:39:27 2015 No.5946145

>Is gender learned or biologically determined?

The problem with discussing this issue is that people are often working with completely different ideas about what these words even mean, which means the debate often just turns into people talking past each other about different things. Here's a summary of my feelings about it, which is basically the consensus among other anthropologists and other people involved in the debate that aren't nutjob activists:

Sex and gender are two different things. Or rather, two different facets of the same idea. Sex is biological, and gender is the cultural element. Neither are binary (yes, not even sex, since various intersex conditions exist). Gender is basically how people act out their sex (or what they feel their sex should be) based on societal norms. Different cultures have different ways of classifying genders. Basically none of this is easy to classify and talk about in binaries.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:40:40 2015 No.5946149

>>5946110
The first idea is that we have sex as some kind of biological truth. But the fact is we are not strictly biological animals, we have language, we have culture, etc. So we need to bring this (real, biological) information into our everyday world (symbolic, cultural). This process of translation is gender, and it is arbitrary (you have, for example, cultures in which the biological differences are translated in two genders and others in which there are three). This is the normal feminist/queer theorization.
Butler's criticism is that this whole idea already limits our approach, so that "sex" turns into a in-deconstrutable truth. Her idea is that sex itself is socially constructed, and I'm not sure if I can agree with that

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:41:53 2015 No.5946156 >>5946135 Insofar as gender is something different to sex it is meaningless. Sex is a biological concept.

>>	Deep&Edgy !!BfzNblz4cXS Sat Jan 3 20:42:29 2015 No.5946161 File: 1.49 MB, 368x340, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5945923 >mfw my entire dissertation reads like this

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:43:08 2015 No.5946164 >>5946145 >Sex and gender are two different things How about you use gender roles or gender identity because sex and gender are the same thing.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:43:23 2015 No.5946166

>>5946110
While basic character traits, such as aggressiveness for males, are mostly biologically determined, the more complex behaviors expected from a given sex, such as holding the door for a lady as a male, are largely born out of expectations from society. So gender is not just biological although certainly not just social either.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:44:13 2015 No.5946172

>>5946149
>Her idea is that sex itself is socially constructed, and I'm not sure if I can agree with that

Please, just read the wiki article in OP, 3 minutes. It's the perfect example, even with a twin for a control case, of gender failing to be socially constructed, despite all efforts.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:45:45 2015 No.5946181

>>5946145
People don't act out their sex according to societal norms. Society may just value each sex for different things. Thinking you are a woman in a man's body does not fit your definition of gender anyway, as it has nothing to do with what society values.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:46:10 2015 No.5946184

>>5946145
>my feelings
>gender is a social construct

I like how you prefaced this tired rhetoric with a fancy claim about anthropology to try and disguise it as something remotely credible.

If gender is a social construct, why do trans individuals feel the need to undertake complex surgical & medical procedures to alter themselves physically?

If gender is a social construct, how do you account for the clear, well-understood differences in traits between genders for which there is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:48:17 2015 No.5946190

> The move from a structuralist account in which capital is understood to structure social relations in relatively homologous ways

This is an Althusserian system, in which the Marxist distinction between base and superstructure is upheld. Marxists argued that ultimately, the deciding factor in all social life (politics, literature, courts, etc.) were the relations of production. Althusser says there is a limited amount of autonomy, but that things like form of government, property rights law, etc. are at some level dependent on relations of production - capital, which contains its own contradiction (Hegel) and will work dialectically.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:49:19 2015 No.5946193

>>5946190
> to a view of hegemony in which power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation brought the question of temporality into the thinking of structure,

This is Gramsci, an Italian Marxist. Gramsci argues that what gives the tone to government, politics, law, etc. is contingent; it's not necessarily the economic ruling class that sets the stage, and the government doesn't necessarily follow the interests of capitalists / relations of productions. Basically, he cut the link that said that superstructure was always determined by economic base (capital), making room for a "rearticulation" of various political signifiers and systems. Rearticulation itself has a long history in continental thought, but a brief lesson is: when I say the word democracy, you probably think about individuals voting privately in a booth for the candidate of their choice. Soviets would say that this is a lie, and that real democracy is when a vanguard party acts in the name of the proletariat. Thus, we have to think about the history of institutions & terms, about who rules them, who has ruled them, who is making plans to rule them. Althusser would argue that only the working class can properly lead the True Revolution, and that some day the internal contradictions of Capitalism would bring this about. Gramsci would dispute this (mostly; Gramsci is slightly more orthodox than Butler argues)

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:50:46 2015 No.5946200

>>5946193
Important to parsing this sentence is splitting it in half right here. I suspect you're trolling because some cunt gave Butler an award for "Worst Writing" for this sentence, and Martha Nussbaum made a fool of herself saying she could translate it into non-jargon and got it wrong.

OK, so:

> and marked a shift from a form of Althusserian theory that takes structural totalities as theoretical objects

Althusser, because he still believed in necessary linkages between economic relations and a structural totality in which every piece interacted with every other piece, implied that the entire structure of a social "totality" (again, a Hegelian concept, but basically it means "society" in the sense of everything about American life) was determined in the last instance by the relations of production, i.e. how things were produced, labor and capital relations.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:51:22 2015 No.5946206 >>5946193 >capitalism has internal contradictions

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:51:37 2015 No.5946207 >>5946172 No, it's about sex failing to be socially constructed. Gender is exactly how we represent our sex to other people while social animals, it can't be anything other than socially constructed

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:51:41 2015 No.5946208 >>5946161 nice. What's your major?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:53:03 2015 No.5946211

>>5946200

> to one in which the insights into the contingent possibility of structure inaugurate a renewed conception of hegemony as bound up with the contingent sites and strategies of the rearticulation of power.

Basically, since structure isn't determined by a logical totality deriving from the relations of production and capital, the ability to implement social change can come from anywhere - the leaders of the "true" revolution could be feminists controlling media, it could be a coalition voted into political power, etc. , and there is no "necessary" reason for political groups to be divided in any particular way. Essentially, there's no necessary link between class and party preference, nor is there any reason why a feminist movement couldn't be led by a man. In addition, this new system of thought unleashes the possibility that things could go backwards; there's no reason why blue-collar workers having political power must be good for history, and indeed they could take us backwards. Gramsci argued that historical progress is also not assured.

I know people like to pretend /lit/ is good at this stuff, but even /lit/s archenemy of being shit is better at talking about these topics than this place is.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:54:52 2015 No.5946220 >>5946207 I don't know, perhaps if this experiment were held in India, he would not identify as a man, but as a Hijra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28South_Asia%29

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:55:06 2015 No.5946224

>>5946184
>If gender is a social construct, why do trans individuals feel the need to undertake complex surgical & medical procedures to alter themselves physically?

Because in our society, there is a societal gender binary and people who don't feel they fit one of the roles feel the need to fit the other role better. It's a perfect example of how gender is a social construct. In India, a ftm person might feel totally fine being a hijra, but in the US, there's no comfortable inbetween, so they feel the need to physically embody one gender or the other.

>>5946184
>If gender is a social construct, how do you account for the clear, well-understood differences in traits between genders for which there is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence?

What are you even asking here? Biological issues (sex) don't always have much of a bearing on societal ones. Again, binaries don't really apply to this discussion.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:55:22 2015 No.5946226 File: 6 KB, 480x360, MF.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5946190 >2015 >still thinking a Marxist revolution can succeed

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:57:31 2015 No.5946236

>>5946207
the "girl" grew up with a "vagina" and was forced to wear dresses. All he knew was that girls had long hair and wore flowery dresses, and he was a girl.

But one day he says he doesn't want to do it anymore, doesn't want to wear dresses and play with dolls, he wants to be just like his brother, who wears shorts and plays football.
Then his parents come out with the truth and tell him about the burnt dick.

So is that gender, sex, what? Why wasn't s/he happy wearing dresses and having long hair?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:57:44 2015 No.5946237

>>5946226
She's not talking about a Marxist revolution, she's talking about Marxist theory in general. It's like you and >>5946206 just scanned the page for contradictions with your ideology, and use that to dismiss the rest of the post, no matter the content or discussion. I would love to know what makes you so hostile about even trying to engage in a discussion that might even slightly challenge your worldviews.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:00:57 2015 No.5946254 >>5946237 >not talking about Marxist revolution >applying marxist theory Why use a theory that does not apply to modern society?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:02:27 2015 No.5946260 >>5946226 I thought his face looked familiar. Milton Motherfucking Friedman!!

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:03:34 2015 No.5946263

>>5946164
Because that's the nomenclature people use. It's not like we are changing the terminology because it hurts your feelings
>>5946184
>If gender is a social construct, why do trans individuals feel the need to undertake complex surgical & medical procedures to alter themselves physically?
Because they are still a part of society, thus prone to feel the desire to conform to it. People usually understand this separation in two sides as in: one is true and the other is false. This is completely wrong. Just because it is socially constructed it doesn't mean it's meaningless, or that trans people (or anyone) can simply escape it. It just means it's contingent, not essential
>If gender is a social construct, how do you account for the clear, well-understood differences in traits between genders for which there is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence?
I really don't know what you are talking about here. I like how you ended this tired rhetoric with a fancy claim about empirical hard-science to try and disguise it as something remotely credible.
If gender is essential, then why different cultures have more than one gender, such as India?
The concept of gender is nothing more than a translation of what people seem to agree in this thread: there are biological facts (sex) and social contingencies (gender). The end. It's not that hard

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:03:40 2015 No.5946264
File: 58 KB, 614x389, 1417940147178.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5945905
>Is gender learned or biologically determined?
Why do people still keep listening to objectivly wrong theories that had been proven wrong at least 60 Years ago?

Gender is ABSOLUTELY biologically determined. What gender you are is determined by the amounts of testosterone and estrogen that got flooded through your brain when you were still unborn.

Transgenders are people that got fucked by life as their brain got wired to be a man/woman, while their body grew to be the opposite.

EVERYONE who tells you that gender is a social construct is a feminist thats using a Dogma, that has never been proven right, but proven wrong countless times.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:03:53 2015 No.5946265 >>5946224 Society does not decide what sex you are. If you are are man who thinks they are a woman, the fact that you are a man has nothing to do with culture. It is completely scientific. Humans are sexually dimorphic, that is just a fact of the world.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Jan 3 21:03:58 2015 No.5946266 >>5946236 i imagine the doctor who accidentally burned his penis, like, 'oh, sorry my hand was shivering today, but you can have a daughter now i think so it's ok'

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:04:52 2015 No.5946269 >>5946145 >Various intersex conditions exist >Extremely rare mutants should have any sway in the social narrative I hope you drop dead for being such a maliciously manipulative idiot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:05:57 2015 No.5946271 >>5946254 Marx is not only a economics thinker. He is also a sociologist and theorist of history. You can debate a part of his work without accepting the other.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:06:51 2015 No.5946276 >>5945945 siad the imbecile trap from Putinia

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:07:44 2015 No.5946281

>>5946224
>>5946263
>Because they just want to, okay!

But it's not acceptable, hence why everyone treats them like freaks, the stares, and the eventual suicide. Nothing of value lost, except maybe the poor parents' state of mind. Honestly they're probably just happy to be relieved of the shame.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:08:34 2015 No.5946285 File: 229 KB, 260x388, fox.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5945923

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:09:55 2015 No.5946296

>>5946224
>a societal gender binary
Which just coincidentally happens to align exactly with our biologically-defined sex binary.

Oh, but binaries don't really apply to this discussion! Silly me.

I really don't see what your argument is. Are you saying that because gender is a social construct (it's not), the logical action for individuals who don't meet the social criteria for their gender to take is to set about reassigning their physical (biologically-defined) sex, ideally at taxpayers' expense, regardless of whether it really alleviates their mental issues, which studies suggest it does not?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:10:04 2015 No.5946298

>>5946254
Does straight Marx apply to modern society? Not completely? No. Does Marxist theory, revised over a century and a half by thousands of scholars, political thinkers, revolutionaries, and others dedicating their lives to the study apply to modern life? Absolutely. You would be very hard pressed to say that people like Deboard and Baudrillard are irrelevant to modern society, along with any number of contemporary and earlier Critical Theorists work. I'd respect you if you actually took the time to read their arguments and thoughts and came up with a real interaction and refutation of them after understanding the basis of their position, but both of us know that probably wont happen.

I bet you think that the majority of /lit/ are marxist/leftist, when it's been super conservative since forever and only looks like that in comparison to the rest of the site. This isn't necessarily addressed to you, but I feel like people come on /lit/ and argue counter-left viewpoints as if they are in the den of Marxism, when they are really with similar opinions.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:11:23 2015 No.5946302 >>5946296 I WANT TO DO IT GOD DAMN IT NOW PAY FOR IT

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:11:37 2015 No.5946306 >>5946271 She used the term "capital", so she was clearly applying some of Marx's economic thoughts. You can debate anything. I have no problem with debating ABOUT Marx's work. The problem is applying it as a theory.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:15:51 2015 No.5946323

>>5946236
>All he knew was that girls had long hair and wore flowery dresses
>he wants to be just like his brother, who wears shorts and plays football
This is gender. It is arbitrary
>But one day he says he doesn't want to do it anymore
This is sex. The lesson to be taken here is that it is not subject to societal/environmental pressures: it will surface no matter how much you try to hide it.
The thing is, he identified himself as a male. He saw what a male was supposed to do and wanted to do the same

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:19:35 2015 No.5946341 >>5946298 I have read about Baudrillard's ideas before. They are post-modern crap. I don't need your respect.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:21:57 2015 No.5946353

>>5946341
Would you like to cite a specific book or passage with which you have an argument against, or are you just going to hid behind lit's biggest boogy-word, post-modern, to win your arguments for you? I'm not necessarily doubting that you've read him, but right now you're not convincing anyone.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:22:59 2015 No.5946361 >>5946265 Yes but aren't there some animals that have not only two distinct categories of sexuality, even being sexually dimorphic? For example, alpha male, beta male and female? Doing some research on this, brb

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:24:41 2015 No.5946368

>>5946263
But the problem with them is not that they do not meet the criteria to fit the gender that society has apparently "assigned" them, it is the fact that they reject what they have been designated.
A transexual faces no oppression for being what they really are, it is the denial that leads to oppression.
The roles of men and women in society are quite wide, this does not mean gender is anything more than sex or that it is non binary.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:25:43 2015 No.5946372 >>5946353 I have not read his books, I have visited his wiki a few times when arguing with Marxists as they bring him up quite a bit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:31:46 2015 No.5946404 >>5946269 >these extremely rare cases are a big enough deal for you to get your jimmies rustled on a taiwanese hieroglyph web page

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:33:18 2015 No.5946407

>>5946323
>he identified himself as a male
and that's where I think you're shitting me.

Let's try and look at it from a statistical perspective. What are the chances that this person, who looks between his legs and sees female genitalia, is told by his parents that he is female, and was treated, since he could remember, as a female-what are the chances that this individual will one day say "Fuck it, I want to be male. Yup, I identify as male." I'd say they are rather slim. BUT if you told me that biologically he had a penis, and got it burnt off, I'd say, "Oh, ok, that makes it a lot more likely. See, he was biologically predisposed to BE A FUCKING BOY"

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:39:33 2015 No.5946425 Isn't identity politics just a really, really bad answer to the problem of universals? And not only that, they seem to have taken their concepts from a philosophy of Becoming and rooted it firmly into a practical philosophy of Being.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:40:07 2015 No.5946429

>>5945905

Part of me feels that this discussion isn't worth having. We live in a free country, people can be whatever gender they want, and people can have whatever opinion of it they want (within allowance of hate speech laws). All we really need is a few tweaks to the law to allow for equal rights and it becomes a matter of time for full integration.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:43:27 2015 No.5946437 >>5946429 right, freedom, sure, but one issue is why should taxpayers have to pay for all that? Why do taxpayers have to subsidize this infimous minority, when it doesn't represent the will of the majority?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:43:28 2015 No.5946438

>>5946407
Yes, the idea is that the biological part of it made him slide towards the male part, but the way to express this is social. It may be that there is even a biological basis to gender (or not, maybe if you are biologically a male you just look up to another males and act like them), so as to enable this connection between both, but it is largely social.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:45:15 2015 No.5946446 >>5946425 The problem of universals is the problem of how to explain why Universals exists. I don't really see how it is relevant to identity politics.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:46:36 2015 No.5946450 >>5946264 See how it is simple to fuck up these arguments with simple good judgment ? Time to close this fucking thread

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:48:10 2015 No.5946454 File: 3 KB, 120x90, images.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5946264

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:48:27 2015 No.5946455

>>5946437

They're such a tiny group that it's not much of a cost at all. HRT is cheap as dirt, and only a fraction of this tiny group wants the surgery, which isn't a terribly complicated procedure relative to other surgeries. It's not like brain or heart surgery. At the end of the day it's a mental illness, and this is the only cure we have for it. They're entitled to it just like anyone else.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:48:41 2015 No.5946456 File: 33 KB, 400x400, 1396759355847s.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5945923

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:49:45 2015 No.5946461 >>5946437 If you're going to complain about that, lets ban all alcohol and tobacco first, which are way more of a tax on the system and taxpayers in both private and public healthcare systems.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:50:07 2015 No.5946463

>>5946438
You realise that the fact that he lost his dick does not stop him being male right? He still has XY rather than XX, his brain still developed with heightened testosterone levels present and so on.
You are delusional if you think society decides anything. Society has decided to give sexual dimorphism a name called "gender". That is about as far as society has influenced the matter.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:51:41 2015 No.5946464

>>5946438
No matter how you twist the words, the idea that biology decides on dick or vagina & society provides the rest is utter nonsense.

>>5946455
It's not a cure. Talk like that is why there needs to be discussion on the subject. Either provide proof that it's a cure or shut the fuck up.

Doctors don't prescribe weight loss for people with bulimia.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:51:44 2015 No.5946465

>>5946456
There has already been an explanation of this quote in the thread explaining her ideas in a more simple manner. She's not writing for people not familiar with the topics on hand already, that's happened before in many fields and will continue to happen into the future.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:52:20 2015 No.5946468 >>5946461 yeah critics really tip their hand to the fact that they're actually just icked out by boys thinking they're girls and vice versa.

disgustingly !trap0OylHY Sat Jan 3 21:53:01 2015 No.5946470

>>5946437
Because the narrative is that it's wrong. If it were something anyone could do if they want it would be entirely up to each trans person to go and buy hormones. But since it's a desease there needs to be doctor aproval and it enters into health care in the places where it's a thing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:53:20 2015 No.5946471 >>5946465 hey i said it was normal and not weird!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:53:58 2015 No.5946474 >>5946407 He had an insane therapist and no genitals, he had an abdominal hole for peeing. I think this might tip off the more alert sort of person that something was off.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 21:56:02 2015 No.5946479 >>5946470 It is a disease, so why do we need to give them the right to a separate gender?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:00:02 2015 No.5946489

>>5946438
Well then, in that case your position is reduced to a platitude of the most conservative kind. Biological boys will be biological boys. Of course the way to express that is arbitrary: in the 18th century men wore wigs and powdered their noses, in Ancient Greece men fucked men, those were the gender roles. But they were not "fluid" or "performative" in any interesting sense, because for each "society", for each socio-cultural period, the expression of 'manliness' was very clearly defined.

>>	disgustingly !trap0OylHY Sat Jan 3 22:02:20 2015 No.5946494 >>5946479 Rights aren't given by the masses, you seem to have a poor grasp of how society tends to work.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:03:26 2015 No.5946498

>>5946455
>At the end of the day it's a mental illness,
holy shit, again, there you go. This is the most retrograde position ever held, which has been cleaned up since the 60s. This is exactly what every LGBT group is trying to fight against, saying they are NOT mentally ill.

That's their own internal contradiction: they are not ill, yet they want corrective surgery and HRT. So which one is it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:04:33 2015 No.5946500 >>5946264 what if your ok with being either? wtf does that mean?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:05:36 2015 No.5946505

>>5946498
You're assuming that all of these groups are homologous, and that all of the LGBT community has the same opinions on these topics. There is a split within that very general demographic on how to approach this (illness or not), and it's dishonest to portray them as a single mass to make them all seem illogical.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:08:29 2015 No.5946512 >>5946494 Refering to a trans male as male is not taking away any rights. They are male, they simply have a disease which makes them believe otherwise.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:08:44 2015 No.5946513

>>5946494
Really? Who gives the rights, then? Mr. Obama? The Constitution? I thought it was the voters through a tiny little thing called democracy.

>>5946479
Exactly this. You guys seem to want it both ways. It's a disease, so pay for our meds and surgery. But it's not a disease, we want recognition of our special snow-flakiness and change the grammar of your language, please, because I will not be called he or she! And give me my own bathroom! And write more books about people of my gender/disease!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:11:15 2015 No.5946517 >>5946498 It fits the definition of mental disorder. Why do transexuals get a pass from being called mentally ill, but not schizophrenics?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:11:36 2015 No.5946518

>>5946498
>The terms transsexualism, dual-role transvestism, gender identity disorder in adolescents or adults and gender identity disorder not otherwise specified are listed as such in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases (ICD) or the American Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) under codes F64.0, F64.1, 302.85 and 302.6 respectively.[69] The DSM-5 refers to the topic as gender dysphoria.

The people who are professionals in the field of mental health seem to disagree with you. Within the general realm of Mental Illness, the point where it hinders ones ability to live a functional life is where it becomes considered a mental illness.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:13:25 2015 No.5946525

>>5946505
alright, so some Ts of the LGBT want to be considered mentally ill. Other Ts want to be considered their own gender. So I have a solution: Make them wear big stars, yellow and red, one for the mentally ill and one for the special snowflakes. And make them wear a nametag with their preferred pronouns.

Otherwise, how will I know?

Also, since when do we consult the sick person's opinions to see how we conceptualize the disease?
Tell me, Mr. Smith, do you feel like you have lung cancer? Or do you feel more like it's a cancer of the liver? What does your heart tell you?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:18:46 2015 No.5946536

>>5946518
>In 1952, the APA listed homosexuality in the DSM as a sociopathic personality disturbance. Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals, a large-scale 1962 study of homosexuality, was used to justify inclusion of the disorder as a supposed pathological hidden fear of the opposite sex caused by traumatic parent–child relationships. This view was widely influential in the medical profession.[18] In 1956, however, the psychologist Evelyn Hooker performed a study that compared the happiness and well-adjusted nature of self-identified homosexual men with heterosexual men and found no difference.[19] Her study stunned the medical community and made her a hero to many gay men and lesbians,[20] but homosexuality remained in the DSM until May 1974.[21]

The DSM is not the most stable of diagnostic instruments. I'm a psychologist, and the DSM-5 was the most controversial of all DSM's. Many professionals denounced it as worthless. Plus, there's the weight of identity-politics groups pressing down on them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:24:20 2015 No.5946554 http://www.healthnewsreview.org/2012/12/critic-calls-american-psychiatric-assoc-approval-of-dsm-v-a-sad-day-for-psychiatry/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/allen-frances/reaction-to-dsm-5_b_3146659.html Bottom line, DSM-5 is shit. Nobody trusts it.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:24:27 2015 No.5946555

>>5946525
There aren't that many of them, so you most likely wont interact with more than a handful for the majority of your life. If you do, ask them how they prefer to be addressed, as you would when needing to know when to refer to someone as Mister, Professor, Doctor, and so on. It barely takes any effort on your part, and I've had people be way more pissy about their professional titles than I've had transgendered people I meet in real life make a huge deal about me referring to them in a way they don't like.

>Also, since when do we consult the sick person's opinions to see how we conceptualize the disease?
Tell me, Mr. Smith, do you feel like you have lung cancer? Or do you feel more like it's a cancer of the liver? What does your heart tell you?

I really hope I don't have to point out to you how flawed the comparison of mental and physical diseases is.

Fuck this thread, no ones going to change their opinion about anything, extremes on both sides will continued to claim unwarranted oppression, and no one will ever talk about books on this board

>>5946536
I understand that it's very flawed in many areas of mental illness, but I don't really see anyone in this thread that could provide widely accepted, peer reviewed evidence outside of strawman reasoning and isolated cases on the topic. I really wish the medical community could come to a consensus at some point in the next 10 years so everyone could move on to other topics.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:24:51 2015 No.5946556

>>5946517
>Why do transexuals get a pass from being called mentally ill, but not schizophrenics?

I haven't the foggiest; I've constantly used the analogy of imbibing transsexuals of their delusions is akin to telling a schizophrenic to give in to the voices in their head.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:25:14 2015 No.5946558 >>5946536 Funny how dated things become controversial and worthless when they do not back up the leftist world view. But Marx, his writings are still applicable today and carry much weight.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:25:37 2015 No.5946559 I feel like I'm all alone here. Why did you all leave? Come on, you Fem Theory major, let's have some fun. I promise not to be so harsh this time around.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:27:45 2015 No.5946568

>>5946558
Didn't we just go over, earlier in this thread, that almost no one in the West seriously follows straight Marxism without the continued analysis, interpretation, and transformation that has come with the very general theory over the last 150 years or more?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:28:00 2015 No.5946571
File: 178 KB, 1124x743, 12345514614351345613.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5946498
>>5946505

being gay is not a mental disorder. it is a deviation from the norm, but not one that is inherently problematic.

transgendered people do have a mental disorder, as our condition is one which deviates from the norm and is inherently problematic. to be trans is to have developed a mental disorder which causes a severe hatred of one's physical sex. current research points to this development probably being the result of either an over-abundance or a deficit of the correct sex hormones, either before birth or during early post-natal development, leading to a brain and body that don't entirely match up. the primary symptom of this condition is discomfort with one's primary and secondary sexual traits, which often reaches the extremes of suicidal self-hatred when compounded with the spurn and neglect of others for expressing these feelings.

a more recent development is the assertion by many that, because they "act like the opposite sex", through cross-dressing and other similar behaviours, they also have this disorder. the two have been conflated, and, because the former is a rare condition, the latter has become more widely known, going so far as to call out the former as being their oppressors, "denying their identities".

it is this second group, along with many modern feminists, that asserts "gender is purely a social construct". those of us who actually have this mental disorder are painfully aware that there are two archetypes, both physical and mental, and that female people trend towards one and male people trend towards the other. we are accidents that ended up not following those trends, and the result is endless self-hatred.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:30:25 2015 No.5946582

>>5946556
>>5946571

as for "indulging in our fantasies", there is, at present, no known cure for this condition. there isn't an easy way to just "fix" the brain to make it match the body, so the only remaining course of action that has any benefit is to try to match the body to the brain.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:34:51 2015 No.5946594

>>5946571
Just wanna make this clear, if I can. I strongly dislike queer theory and their "everything's fluid, just be whatever you want, pan-trans-omni-megalo-gender." I just hate their stupid theories.

I have nothing against transexuals, and I wish I could help them in their suffering. I sincerely believe all this Judith Butler wankering does not help them very much.

That is all. My hatred is not against the person, at all, just against the dumb theories.

Stay strong, anon.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:38:45 2015 No.5946604

>>5946489
No its not. Conservatives (and other people here) will believe everything is explained by biology, things have always been this way and will ever be. Because gender is purely biological.
>>5946463
You are delusional to think biology decides everything. The amount of differences between cultures show that culture is not a simple expression of our genes
>>5946463
Yes, I realized and it's exactly the center of my argument. Learn how to read

Gender is the name for the contingent characteristics of the sexes (as how the first post I replied to describs), of how we relate to the fundamental biological truth. This truth does not operates in our level of understanding, the symbolic, linguistic level. To bring the biological to the symbolic we need a translation work: this is gender, and it's based off a biological immutable truth, but it's not only biological.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:39:39 2015 No.5946607

>>5946568
almost no one in the west considers themselves as Marxists.
It seems that Marxists, few that there may be, have tried to adapt the original beliefs of Marx to changing environments, which you refer to as developing the general theory. This theory is however still built on the same assumptions that Karl Marx made.
Unless they reject Marx completely, "Marxists" must hold his views to be applicable today in some form.
I would agree that Marx's writing has no applicability today, it never did.

disgustingly !trap0OylHY Sat Jan 3 22:42:37 2015 No.5946614
File: 460 KB, 560x781, tsukimiya_ringo by kusayusaai.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5946571
it's only problematic because there is a social tendency to reject it, hormonal treatment is old as fuck and shouldn't be an issue to anyone ecept the one taking it (and the one adquiring/selling it, but more of an economic issue). It's not that different from how homosexuality was seen, most "different brains" explanations are weak and just as injustified as previous attempts to justify it as a desease but with words that sound more real right now.

It could be perfectly dealt with if societies were taught to not care just like at a certain point it was rude to tell people not to smoke in your face.

I understand if you disagree with me, but please try not to take a stand as a representative of all trans people. Even if you somehow discover the perfect argumentation it's insulting to assume that everyone feels the same way.
Cheers.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:47:33 2015 No.5946628

>>5946607
I think what I mean to say is that, by this point in it's development, and due to the vast field of political opinions contained within and augmented by Marxism in it's many forms, it's hard to really say how much Marx is left in many of the movements, both political and intellectual, that stem from it. They may have grown out of the Marxist tradition, but the length and sheer mass of work done in this tradition takes his works far beyond anything he may have intended and foreseen. For that reason, I feel like it's a cop out to assume that Marxist thought is obsolete because Marx is, when, if were talking about direct references, most works reference complicated interpretations of other Marxist works more than the actual documents of Marx.

That was a lot of Marx.Like, wow, I didn't even realize I said it that much.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:48:02 2015 No.5946632

>>5946604
Characteristics of the sexes are by definition set. This does not mean that all human characterists are determined by sex.

You are completely deluded. How can biology not operate on our level of understanding? Look at the human genome project and tell me that was just a social convention.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:50:39 2015 No.5946645 >>5946628 So you are saying that all marxists hold that none of marx's writings are applicable today?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:54:20 2015 No.5946661

>>5946632
I don't think you understand me. The fact we have the human genome project only proves my point: we have this biological truth but it is not accessible to us by normal means, we don't know it instinctively, even though it deeply affects us. So we have to take this and turn it into some kind of knowledge we can use: gender. And it is cultural, and it changes through history and it can be largely wrong.
If biology operated in our level of understanding, the biological science wouldn't exist, because we would know directly everything it has to tell us.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:54:32 2015 No.5946662

>>5946645
Would you say that since war strategy developed and specialized during the last 100 years to become a higly controlled calculation the old as fuck idea of more people hitting less stops happening?
Marxism is a foundation, you can then put whatever bricks you want on top. Smart people should know both parts.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:55:26 2015 No.5946663

>>5946645
No, I'm saying that for some parts of Marxist theory, the parts of Marxism that many call to criticism (the model for Communism, some of the Economic parts) have been largely cut out, revised or replaced. It's also possible to come out of that tradition, without agree with Marx on many fronts (a lot of Post-structuralists/post-Marxists do this, and are really Marxist only in name).

Also, no where did I say that all Marxists believe none of his writing, I stated that the field that stems from this tradition is so vast that it has the room to hold many who disagree with parts of his theory or only interact with him through other thinkers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 22:57:07 2015 No.5946671 >>5946614 If you accept that it is a mental disorder then you must accept that it is not a gender. It just means you have a brain defect, like a person with bipolar for example.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:00:28 2015 No.5946683 >>5946661 >you need to know something a priori to have knowledge Nice try Solipsist

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:02:22 2015 No.5946692 >>5946683 >implying I said that

disgustingly !trap0OylHY Sat Jan 3 23:08:24 2015 No.5946715

>>5946671
I don't think it's a mental disorder, but I don't want to check the definition of "mental disorder" and it might be more extensive than I think. What I believe is that all the self destructive aspects come from the way people interact, disphoria isn't inherently harmful, you hurt yourself because of a lack of a better way to deal with it.
If it were perfectly acceptable for each person to regulate their hormones to whatever levels they want there would be no issue about this.

Again, I think so. It's a heterogeneous group.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:13:23 2015 No.5946733
File: 101 KB, 617x443, jacques_lacan.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Not reading Lacan

>Not realizing that we are all born with a desire to develop a male phallus in order to fulfill our Oedipal desire for our mothers.

>Not knowing that gender is directly related with the world of the parents and the generational history of each individual family.

Butler has a point but loses is when she conflates the structure with the superstructure. Her metaphysics are boring and were more original when they were Foucault 's.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:16:45 2015 No.5946743
File: 133 KB, 1296x972, 1406867750134.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5946614
a social tendency to reject what? i'm not sure what you're referring to here.

my problems, as stated above, arise from a mental disorder. what has caused this disorder, be it hormone imbalance, the way i was raised, some combination, or something else entirely, has no bearing on my current state (though figuring out whatever it is could be very useful in preventing this happening to others). similarly, the way i act, be it overall "masculine" or "effeminate" has no bearing on my current state either. i act how i want and wear what i want, and i always have. social rejection has certainly added to my stress and unhappiness, but it is not the root cause.

if this is not the case for you or for others, then i'm happy for you. feel free to do whatever you want for your lives. take hormones and get surgeries if you want. all i would ask is for people who do not have this same issue to stop claiming they are like me and drawing me into their dumb gender politics.

tl;dr: removing expectations of outward behaviour that matches one's physical sex would remove lots of social pressure for lots of people, but it would not address the specific issue i have; please stop saying otherwise.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:17:47 2015 No.5946747 >>5946733 I think my main criticism of Butler is that she steals a ton of Foucault without really improving on it.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:17:53 2015 No.5946748

>>5946715
>disphoria isn't inherently harmful

Dysphoria. And yes, dysphoria is inherently harmful. It's definitionaly so; it's "a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life." The fact that transgendered people feel it makes being transgender a disorder. If they didn't, and instead transgender people were just people who wanted to be girls but were ok with not being girls, there'd be no need to discuss it so seriously and to provide "treatments."

Are you trying to say that gender dysphoria is caused by the social attitude towards people who have gender dysphoria? Because that's stupid. Think about the difference between a transvestite and a transgendered person. Somebody like Eddie Izzard doesn't need psych treatment. He just throws some lipstick on and has a blast.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:18:02 2015 No.5946749 >>5945905 Biology 100%

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:18:35 2015 No.5946752 >>5946733 Please, dear Lacanian, help me explain how language utterly separates us from the biological Real, thus opening the space for gender as a purely symbolic construct.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:23:09 2015 No.5946763

>>5946743

If you accept that technology and hormonal treatment can cure people of body dismorphia , then it is obvious that society would accept different genders as a category. That's Butlers main claim society changes it's morals depending on performance of it's individual and what is accepted.

Because diagnosing people as mentally unbalanced for liking the opposite sex achieved nothing and didn't "cure" anyone from their homosexuality, it should extend to transsexuals who need to be treated like all cognitive and psychosomatic illness differently from the schizophrenic or the psychotic, who by the way are also rarely ever cured or improve when they are fed pills and drugs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:24:39 2015 No.5946765 >>5946752 Science is a form of language dingus. So is philosophy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:25:11 2015 No.5946767 >>5946135 You're pretty fucking stupid

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:28:19 2015 No.5946775 >>5946752 Just no. If you believe the Real is the biological, or viceversa, then you're way off. That is not Lacan at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:29:51 2015 No.5946782 >>5946264 Sex and gender are two different things. Conflating the two will get you nowhere. I'm not saying sex is meaningless, but that's not Butlers main claim.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:34:32 2015 No.5946799

>>5946763
changing my body could cure this issue. such a complete change is not yet possible, so i cannot yet fully be cured (actively changing my brain to match my body could also cure this issue, but, assuming we are capable of this at some point in the future, allowing it to be commonplace would be a bad idea, as it would set a precedent for the sentient no longer being sacred, as it currently is out of necessity, and all sorts of "behavioural adjustments" would soon follow.).

as i said above, removing all social stigma would not be a cure. unlike a homosexual, i have a problem that would still exist were i completely separated from the rest of society. it would be nice to not have people freaking out at me for being different from them after being cured, but their freaking out is *not the primary cause of my current discomfort*. what people would call me at after that is dealt with is not my concern, as long as it isn't "hey stupid" or a series of death threats.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:36:08 2015 No.5946802 >>5946775 Fugg. Would it be right to say the Real encompasses the biological, though? At least in the case of sexual difference

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:39:17 2015 No.5946815

>white men are literally the only ones who actively support female rights
>cultures in Africa force bands around women's necks to stretch then so they will be beautiful, and white people have "oppressive" fashion

Delete the thread OP and get over it. White men are superior to everyone

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:44:45 2015 No.5946833 >>5946815 >people in africa should behave like whites

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:45:29 2015 No.5946835

>>5946782
Repeating it over and over won't make it true. Actions and personalities are just that. Gender is determined by your genitals. Stop bitching. I'm sorry you believe brainwashing onesself with thousands of pages about this delusion makes it true or requires a thorough refutation, but it doesn't. Just shut the fuck up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:46:12 2015 No.5946839 >>5946833 Yes they should.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:46:40 2015 No.5946842 >>5946835 >Gender is determined by your genitals kek. i have a dick it means i should fight wars

disgustingly !trap0OylHY Sat Jan 3 23:47:48 2015 No.5946845
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>>5946743
I'm not discussing how people should behave, I wouldn't like to try to propose a set criteria nor anything like that. I'm sorry if what I said came out like that.

My point is that dysphoria could perfectly be just a thing that happens and you deal with and move on, the process of turning it into a pathology adds to a certain stigma and makes people feel the need to be a certain way to be a true certified trans. I don't feel there's a need for that when the issue could be dealt with more quickly and painlessly.

I don't want to say that things are a certain way and only that way, if anything I want to cement how different people with dysphoria interpret their feelings and deal with it differently.

>>5946747
This is the most serious commentary in this thread.

>>5946748
>dysphoria
I'm sorry, had to fix this post to.

>Are you trying to say that gender dysphoria is caused by the social attitude towards people who have gender dysphoria?
Not at all, that would be some retroactive magic, I can't tell where you got that idea. Neither do I feel that people who just happen to enjoy doing feminine things or dressing like one are the same as being trans.
The pain that comes from the dysphoria has much more to do with being unable to deal with your situation, feeling trapped,, not knowing where to get help´if there's even help to be have, forcing yourself to resign your feelings, hating yourself for feeling a certain way. All of those aren't part of your brain. Those are results of your context, education and the people around you. Yes, you feel like shit anyway, but there's a huge difference and a lot of people feel really fine after getting treatment even if they'll be dysphoric all their lives. Having something to do to help yourself, setting an achivable goal, finding support, those things make most transfolk feel way better and that's not a treatment that's human contact and respect.

I hope I'm making sense, esl and no spell check in this computer.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:52:02 2015 No.5946864

>>5946802

Read this:

http://nosubject.com/index.php?title=Jacques_Lacan:Sexual_Difference

At a very base level there is no sexual difference because we are all lacking a "phallus". Men want to develop a phallus and women want to be the phallus.

Zizi sums it up well:

>This is, according to Jacques-Alain Miller, Lacan’s universe in Seminar
XX: a universe of radical split (between signifier and signified, between jouis-
sance of the drives and jouissance of the Other, between masculine and femi-
nine), in which no a priori Law guarantees the connection or overlapping
between the two sides, so that only partial and contingent knots-symptoms
(quilting points, points of gravitation) can generate a limited and fragile coordi-
nation between the two domains. In this perspective, the “dissolution of a
symptom,” far from bringing about a nonpathological state of full desiring
capacity, leads instead to a total psychotic catastrophe, to the dissolution of the
subject’s entire universe. There is no “big Other” guaranteeing the consistency
of the symbolic space within which we dwell: there are just contingent, punc-
tual, and fragile points of stability

and

>However, in contrast to Butler and historicism, Lacan grounds historicity in a
different way: not in the simple empirical excess of “society” over symbolic
schemas but in the resisting kernel
within the symbolic process itself.The Lacanian Real is thus not simply a technical term for the neutral limit of conceptualization.We should be as precise as possible here with regard to the
relationship between trauma as real and the domain of socio-symbolic histori-
cal practices: the Real is neither presocial nor a social effect. Rather, the point is
that the Social itself is constituted by the exclusion of some traumatic Real.What is “outside the Social” is not some positive a priori symbolic form/norm but merely its negative founding gesture itself .

The Real precludes both the symbolic and the imaginary

http://www.soundandsignifier.com/files/Zizek_Real_Sexual_Difference.pdf

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:52:38 2015 No.5946867

>>5946799
If changing your body would fix the issue then it's a body thing, not a brain one. You don't treat the stomach to fix your foot.

If you remove the social stigma then you can just buy hormones like people do anyway. More than half of /lgbt/ is buying hormones by mail and self controlling, including stealth people.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:53:30 2015 No.5946873

>>5946835
>Actions and personalities are just that. Gender is determined by your genitals.
so hypothetically people who don't have genitals do not have a gender? likewise male genitalia in a jar would be described as male identical to the way a man with those genitalia would be described as male?

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Jan 3 23:53:50 2015 No.5946875 >>5946864 >Jacques_Lacan >we are all lacking a "phallus". Men want to develop a phallus and women want to be the phallus frenchies are ill probably their bird language corrupts them

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:54:09 2015 No.5946877 >>5946864 >>5946845 At what point in the discussion do you wrap it up with "and that's why this is all stupid"?

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:55:46 2015 No.5946886

>>5946845

My point is that the dysphoria of trans people isn't JUST socially motivated like it is with homosexuality. Deep down, a trans person wants to be another gender. They don't want to dress differently, wear makeup, or whatever, they want to be female or male, to have different sexual characteristics (some want more drastic change than others, obviously.) This fact is what makes it a disorder. There's something deep in the mind of a trans person that can't be fixed without their body being fixed.

There's obviously a ton of other kinds of feeling shit, amplifiers of feeling like shit, that come from being trans that come from its stigma. That doesn't make it a psychological disorder. If it was just that, it wouldn't be, it'd be a social issue like civil rights.

The point I'm trying to get across, I'll repeat and summarize, is because transsexuals would be (hypothetically) uncomfortable with their bodies in even an ideal society it is a disorder.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 23:57:52 2015 No.5946894

>>5946864

fugg, fucked up the green-text

>>5946799

Well their point is that they are indeed ill, suffering from a hormonal imbalance. They are not saying that they are happy with their condition.

It seems to me that the argument from their side is purely utilitarian, in that if they transition they would be less unhappy.

I get your point, but for these people in order not to kill themselves this is their only solution.

Anyway I know very little about psychotherapy involving transsexual , so I should probably shut up.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:02:34 2015 No.5946912
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>>5946845
ok, i think i get what you're trying to say a bit better now!

if it were a thing that could be easily dealt with, that would make sense. as things stand, the only possible changes are incomplete, have to be made early on in development, can cause health problems, and are not easily reversible (for those who may realise after the fact that they were fooling themselves or had been pressured by others into something they didn't want). treatment is necessary, despite these issues, as being left untreated leads to so many problems itself. however, until those issues are solved, it should be dealt with as a pathology.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:03:39 2015 No.5946919 >>5946873 I don't know why you even bothered to reply

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:05:03 2015 No.5946925

>>5946894
A lot of them are unhappy & kill themselves anyway, but of course you're not interested in whether or not transitioning is actually the best way to help anyone, only establishing the incontrovertible freedom to do so & have the state fund it. I'm not outright revolted by "trans"-people but I do wonder why it's been added to the ever-expanding list of sacred Leftist cows completely off-limits for discussion.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:06:47 2015 No.5946931 Shit, I've taken too many drugs and it's become the nineties again. Fuckit, one of you bisexual cunts put on the Happy Mondays and pass the yayo about.

disgustingly !trap0OylHY Sun Jan 4 00:06:56 2015 No.5946932

>>5946886
Yes, I get what you're saying and I'm not disputting that dysphoria is a pretty real and pretty shitty thing. But treating it as something that should be dealt with by professionals with some sort of magic criteria only makes it worse, not only makes it harder to deal with but it also means you have to convince yourself that feeling how you feel is sick. The system as it stands hurts more than it needs to.

And even if you get hrt, srs, ffs and everything, if you had to convince yourself that you're wrong and antinatural you'll still feel like shit each time you see yourself.
While dysphoria is real the chance of it resulting in self harm, harm to others, suicide or just your regular cry every morning in front of the mirror is almost entirely social.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:16:53 2015 No.5946959
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>>5946925
transitioning has not solved all of my issues for two reasons:

1: there was a period of development prior to transitioning that left my body in a state that could not be completely "fixed". many of the problems have been dealt with, but i will still always be a girly-faced midget with no penis. the same is true of those going male to female, and often to a greater degree.

2: since transitioning i have built up a new social circle and group of friends, but the effects of the rejection and ridicule from before have not been completely erased.

transitioning definitely helps, but it can't solve everything, and, for some people, what it can do (with current technology) just isn't enough.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:17:55 2015 No.5946963

If Gender is purely a social construct than trans are Anarchists who wish to undermine and destroy their Country's culture and structures and are therefore enemies of the Population.

If Gender is Biological (you know chromosomes and the like as actually proven) then trans people are Mentally ill people, as such we do not let a person who calls themselves God or Christ go on for long without Treatment. Same should be done to them.

If Gender is a Social construct and Trans people are not Anti-government and not Anti-Society than Trans people are either Mentally ill or Ignorant.

If Gender is But a social construct what sense is there in mutilating your own body and exposing your mind to so many foreign chemicals? If Gender is a social construct it should be enough just to act as if the gender in question.

If they are not mentally ill than they are ignorant or Liars. Because they believe gender is not truly a social construct yet lie it is. If they didn't then why say gender is a social construct than go on to damage your genitalia? The biological apparatus that has nothing to do with Society?

If gender is not Biological and Trans people are not mentally ill, than they are by either by majority Ignorant or Damagingly Perverse.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:19:30 2015 No.5946966

>>5946932

You really don't understand how psychology works. A "disorder" isn't a sickness. Psychologists don't really feel people are "sick." They are dysfunctional. They can't participate smoothly in life. It has to do with the norm and deviations. Not "wrong" and "right." Psychologists have co-opted the terminology of medicine for things like depression and schizophrenia because it suits disorders like these better, and helps change the public opinion of it. I don't think there is a single psychologist who deals with gender who would talk about gender identity in the way you're thinking. It's all public perception.

The reason experts ought to be involved is that you're disturbing an extremely complex, and largely mysterious system, the body, in a way that is both costly and lasting. It is better to do it in an educated and organized way. There's also a great advantage to using the people who are the best at helping people deal with bad feelings deal with these particular bad feelings.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:21:13 2015 No.5946976 >>5946963 epic logic, friend

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:25:03 2015 No.5946992 >>5946976 Is there anything wrong with this reasoning?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:27:32 2015 No.5946998 >>5946963 what if the country's culture and structures are actually the enemies of the population?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:37:29 2015 No.5947018 >>5946919 just hashing out some of the logical consequences of >>5946835's thesis

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:47:01 2015 No.5947035 >>5946864 I really liked this article. Zizek is an informative and interesting read, from what I've seen. Much of it is over my head but he's good at making the text digestible, which is rare in critical theory

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:51:34 2015 No.5947050

>>5946959
Do you think people would necessarily have a strong need to transition if there was more liberty granted in how gender is constituted? I.e. would a society in which strict genders of male/female are substituted by a plurality of identities lessen the need to transition?

Do you think transitioning in some way reinforce's the structure's of gender that currently exist (a male body=a male; a female body=a female)?

I think gender fluidity is interesting in that it allows for a greater possibility of the particularity that exists to manifest itself in ways that don't allows us to merely fall for universals and essentialization (which are themselves signs of our limits of conceiving difference and particularity).

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:57:38 2015 No.5947068
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>>5947050
i can't speak for others, but people with my particular issue don't care about "identities".

i transitioned because i had the body of a female, and it was gross and made me hate myself. there was nothing more to it. what implications it may or may not have for your social theories really don't concern me.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 00:59:30 2015 No.5947075 You guys care way too fucking much about this

>>	Bucephalus Sun Jan 4 01:08:19 2015 No.5947098 File: 22 KB, 309x475, 0674009258.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Whooooooaaaaaaaaaa. This thread is freaking out hard with emotion. Let's all take a breather and read some books on the topic. The Man Who Would be Queen - J Michael Bailey

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 01:16:33 2015 No.5947117

>>5945945
>/pol/
Because nRx edgelords will do anything for the most baroque reasons to exhort man to a state of primal ignorance like he enjoyed in the past. They'll poke through semiotexte's back catelog, D&G, you name it. It's okay though, because when I'll use their critiques of liberalism to become Atmosfuhrer of the Atmosphere and banish the stench of heterosexuality and the black slime of Afterbirth to the dustbin of history. I can dream.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 01:22:15 2015 No.5947141 >>5945972 This is why gender is bullshit. The gist of it is that he couldn't do boy stuff because Dr. Money said that girls don't do boy stuff and that Reimer absolutely couldn't be a girl and play football.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 01:27:04 2015 No.5947151

>>5945976
All the functions we needed men for
(except sperm if you're a natalist goon)
in the past are 100% replicable by women or machines. We have drones and nukes, and once we have T-100s, we can replace infantry with either emasculated nerds or sluts with controllers. Males just make bassa bassa in the classroom, have sex with no permission, and they are just generally annoying and intrusive all the time.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 01:32:54 2015 No.5947176 >>5946226 The actual October revolution or something like the industrial one? Because we've got something for both, and if you think otherwise, 70 years of playing by your rules are nothing.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 01:37:37 2015 No.5947188

>>5946264
>What gender you are is determined by the amounts of testosterone and estrogen that got flooded through your brain when you were still unborn.
>What is puberty?
If that's the case then why do the doctors who specialize in GRT emphasis the need to have them transition as early as possible?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 01:55:53 2015 No.5947239 it's mainly biological

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 02:09:50 2015 No.5947279 >>5945923 This is made up of three different sentences it seems is it from that ridiculous "po-mo" generator?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 02:34:19 2015 No.5947341 >>5945988 I think some of the politically correct folk who know what they're talking about prefer to use the term "sex" in order to refer to biological assignment. Gender, as the forum seems to agree, is a social construct.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 06:16:37 2015 No.5947818 >>5946767 great argument

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 06:55:55 2015 No.5947903 >>5945923 http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/diacritics/summary/v027/27.1butler02.html >noice pasta, mate.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:00:26 2015 No.5947914

>>5945972
>One brother schizophrenic, overdoses on antidepressants, the other brother decides to check out what a sawed-off shotgun tastes like
but if only one brother had their dick chopped off, and both killed themselves, can't we say they both had chemical irregularities?

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:19:07 2015 No.5947968

>>5947151
yes! great idea, lets put every woman into the workforce! Arbeit macht frei. Go work, little peasant! Oh whats that? the birth rates are plummeting? How ridiculous! I can't see how the first can have anything to do with the latter! Just bring in more immigrants, that'll solve the problem.

God, I can't believe how insufferable men are, after how much we psychologically target them. How my grandpa and absentee father have been the theoretical heads of household is truly the source of all the suffering in the world. Mark my words!

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:21:00 2015 No.5947976

>>5947914
good question. First of all, suicide and depression are not entirely biologically coded, environment has a huge say on that.

Second, one brother was dickless, but they both went through horrific shit at the hands of the doctor. Read the wikipedia article in OP, he would have them pretending to copulate, the "girl" on four legs and the boy humping "her" from behind, just to teach them gender roles. And they were brothers...

It could also be related to the fact that they both grew up in a big lie concocted by their parents and doctors, it did not just affect the dickless boy.

I haven't watched the video yet, but I'm sure it's interesting.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:23:53 2015 No.5947988
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>>5945923
what if Judith Butler is in fact future version of Marty McFly choosing to spread feminism as a distraction on the world stage to avert some tragical nuclear disaster of the year 2030?!
/lit/ needs to write a novel...

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:24:13 2015 No.5947992 >>5947976 horrific shit at the hands of a doctor who thought gender was a social construct. To which the leftists cry: "It had nothing to do with it!".

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:25:50 2015 No.5947997 >>5947988 >feminism could be a distraction on the world stage. Come on man, I know you were joking but most women don't even take feminism seriously.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:29:53 2015 No.5948007 >>5946264 yea we know, but feminists want to say "hurrr durr but i do the cooking when i came home from work, and you dont like that i fucked 10 guys in college"

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:31:19 2015 No.5948011

>>5945905
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPfR3FWzVY

tl:dw: it is safe to say that is mostly biollogically determined. People who think you can change gender as you want by the manipulation of the enviroment are hysterical.

Still, I recommend watching the documentary. It's a pleasure to see these norwegian "genders scholars" tilting and negating the evidence. It is like they broking inside or somehing of the like.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:31:40 2015 No.5948012 >>5948007 >women only sleep with 10 guys in college

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:33:31 2015 No.5948020

>>5946571
"mental disorder" is like you have an engine in the proper car but the engine has a bad part. fixing the part makes everything gucci

trans people have the wrong engine in the wrong car, you have nothing to fix because shits fucked. you will never make a man feel okay in a womans body or vice versa.

unless we find a way to actually revert the way the brain forms in the mothers belly

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:34:08 2015 No.5948022

>>5947997
well if you live in a social democratic paradise like Sweden (or even here in Austria) they really do. They love the fuck out of it because it keeps them paranoid about muh gender wage gap and muh terrible violence and it also panders to making their run-off-the-mill lackluster existences feel special by manipulating social relations in their 'favor' (but distinct disfavor when it comes to family). Only McFly can be the mastermind behind such a mischief. Only he is capable. I tell you, this is truth.

www.egs.edu/uploads/pics/judith-butler-1997-3-gerald-zoerner.jpg

http://www.pagesdigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/marty-mcfly.png

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:37:02 2015 No.5948033 >>5948020 except that it is only one part of their brain which is causing the dysfunction. Male transsexuals don't have a "female brain", they have a dis-functioning "male brain" due to heightened exposure to testosterone as they developed.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:39:03 2015 No.5948043 Sorry I misread what you said, >>5948033 I agree with you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:40:42 2015 No.5948051 >>5945923 She has short hair, what a surprised...

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 08:19:24 2015 No.5948177 >>5948011 wow, powerful video. I literally teared up when Victor talked about lying on the operating table.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 08:29:30 2015 No.5948206 ITT people not cut out for STEM talking shit to justify their shitty major.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 08:52:29 2015 No.5948276 >>5945923 why does lit think this is difficult she argues that structuralists thought that power functioned the same way, and that post-structuralists see that power can alter the way it works even on fundamental level

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:30:40 2015 No.5948387 >>5946468 >yeah critics really tip their hand to the fact that they're actually just icked out by boys thinking they're girls and vice versa. hopefully you are smarter than anyone else and remain able to see clearly. Pheeww

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:33:00 2015 No.5948395 >>5948206 I'm not cut out for STEM and I still find this boring and pointless as shit.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:36:23 2015 No.5948403

>>5946555
>There aren't that many of them, so you most likely wont interact with more than a handful for the majority of your life. If you do, ask them how they prefer to be addressed, as you would when needing to know when to refer to someone as Mister, Professor, Doctor, and so on. It barely takes any effort on your part, and I've had people be way more pissy about their professional titles than I've had transgendered people I meet in real life make a huge deal about me referring to them in a way they don't like.

So as usual, I should change my manners to please someone else who would not appreciate otherwise. And who is the most egoist between the two ? You understand that freedom of opinion is for both parties ?

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:41:00 2015 No.5948414

>>5948276
Most people here are used to being held by the hand and when they see a text that isn't trying to be as simple as possible assume that it's a fake since that's easier than slowing down and dividing the sections in the sentence like a 7 year old could.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:45:49 2015 No.5948434 >>5945923 >That pic is actually a woman More like Hewitt Butchler.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:55:04 2015 No.5948454
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>>5947068
>>i transitioned because i had the body of a female, and it was gross and made me hate myself. there was nothing more to it. what implications it may or may not have for your social theories really don't concern me.
and how do you know that your hate for your body is not social. How do you know that it is truly you saying ?
You understand that before hating the body of a female, you must understand from society what a female is ? How can your hate persists if the gender, the word female disappears in your society ?

Also, this
>what implications it may or may not have for your social theories really don't concern me.

proves that you are forgetting that you live in a society. But stay in ur bubble :)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:59:08 2015 No.5948463 >>5947068 Wait, you find your female body gross... so you embrace it and build your identity around it? That don't make sense. Testosterone and weight lifting would change that situation much better than pretending to be female.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:09:15 2015 No.5948480 >>5948463 I don't see how he "has a body of a female" but is still a man anyway. I mean, if he had a vagina and tits, he would be a woman, not a man.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:12:53 2015 No.5948490 >>5948463 If he transitioned then he took hormones and took steps to interact with the world as a man. Reading comprehension please.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:15:10 2015 No.5948499

>>5946184
>If gender is a social construct, why do trans individuals feel the need to undertake complex surgical & medical procedures to alter themselves physically?

Because it's trans-sexual. Not trans-gender. Nobody is arguing there are no biological sexes. If you are a trans woman (mtf), you will feel your body and its -physical, biologically-determined- traits are wrong. You will look at your broad shoulders and beard and feel they are wrong and that you should have breasts and hips.

Biological sex is not a social construct, and it is what trans people struggle with.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:21:15 2015 No.5948509

>>5948499
If a man cuts of his dick and replaces it with a constructed vagina, and gets a boobjob, he is still a man, he is just a man aesthetically altered to look like a woman.

No manner of surgery will make a male-to-female person capable of bearing a child, and change their Y-chromosome to an X.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:23:36 2015 No.5948515 >>5948509 You really don't understand how much hormones do.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:24:39 2015 No.5948518 >>5948515 >You really don't understand how much hormones do. No amount of hormone will make a MTF transperson capable of getting pregnant, nor will it change their chromosomes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:28:46 2015 No.5948533 >>5948518 Good things both of those things aren't possible to notice and influence very little in an adult life.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:29:32 2015 No.5948534 >>5948533 >Good things both of those things aren't possible to notice and influence very little in an adult life. I'm pretty sure being capable of getting pregnant is one of the defining characteristics of being the female of a species.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sun Jan 4 10:31:26 2015 No.5948538 >>5948518 they work at that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_pregnancy double x chromosome will probably stay the last bastion of the femininity in the future

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:40:35 2015 No.5948561

>>5948538
No doubt, it will change in the future.

>double x chromosome will probably stay the last bastion of the femininity in the future

Doubtful. Certain kinds of behavior will always be dimorphized, and depending on context, men and women will find certain types of behavior attractive and others not, just biologically.

Do you really think women find insecure men with low-self esteem attractive? I don't think so, and there is reason for that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:48:58 2015 No.5948588 >>5945972 This is only an argument for Butler since it shows how fucked up gender politics are e.g. the idea that you are defined by your sexual organs, or that there is any "authentic me" in the first place.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:05:04 2015 No.5948631
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>>5945923
no long do structures (material) simply create ideology, but instead, over time, now the actions of power to continue power is what shapes the superstructure?

So Althusser says in the last case, it is always the economic base that decides the superstructure and society (vulgar marxism) and she completely splits from this, and instead posits that it is not just the superstructure which produces society, but the power holding onto power which is the key process that decides what society is like.

Am I right? Do i get my phd in the mail?

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:11:28 2015 No.5948647
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>>5948631
since power is a process that is persistent sincie it replaces structures it Could have patterns that we can study empirically. When we know these we can sort of power/domination/exploitation at its point of action and dismantle it right?

I think she wants us to understand how inequality works in 2015 so we can destroy it. she has only done like 10percent of the work tho

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:15:47 2015 No.5948660 >>5945923 i think you have to know marx, weber, and althusser to get this : S What are other good theorists who write about power and domination?

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:22:28 2015 No.5948680

>>5948518
>No amount of hormone will make a MTF transperson capable of getting pregnant, nor will it change their chromosomes.

pregnancy is one thing, but a female can have spermatozoids by some reverse-engineering from a skin cell. The baby will always be a girl since the mother has only XX. It is probably more complicated and therefore SF than what I wrote here tough. But in the future, provided we manage artificial uterus, we would have no longer the need for surrogate mothers. Perhaps a woman could even inject her spermatozoid in her cunt and pop out a valid girl, who knows.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:24:41 2015 No.5948685

>>5948660
Just read some Foucault and it will be totally comprehensible.
Foucault is much much clearer than Butler though. I'd start with History of Sexuality, Volume 1. Maybe just read that part where he summarizes what "power" means to him, if you're not willing to read the whole volume.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:25:44 2015 No.5948690
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>>5948454
go try letting your muscles atrophy, stapling fat blobs to your chest and hips, and chopping your genitals off before you start telling me it's "all societal". these were physical attributes that impeded my functioning and were gross in their own right, and i don't require a society to measure myself against to approve of their being gone.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:36:07 2015 No.5948724 >>5945923 Butler seems here something like Foucault's power as Derrida's text. Does she overcome or criticize them in any way?

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:37:35 2015 No.5948727

>>5946135
Behavior is biological but biology is full of diversity.
That's why people have issues finding compatible organs, we are all so different.
It's the same things for different populations.
Living in geographical isolations for thousands of years made them diverge and thus led to the evolution of differences between human societies.

>>5946132
>partly arbitrary, being shaped by society.
Arbitrary as in random?
Society isn't random, society is made of individuals which are biologically determined.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:39:08 2015 No.5948733

>>5946149
Language and culture are both biological, they are both products of the brain, a completely biological entity.

>(you have, for example, cultures in which the biological differences are translated in two genders and others in which there are three)
There are different cultures because the people who make these cultures are biologically different.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:42:31 2015 No.5948750

The fact that there are men who feel like women trapped in men's bodies should tell you that it's biologically determined. I don't know why anyone thinks otherwise.

But never mind that. It should intuitively obvious to anyone who has interacted with a man and with a woman before.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:46:23 2015 No.5948763 >>5946604 > The amount of differences between cultures show that culture is not a simple expression of our genes Consider that the people that express two different cultures are generally biologically different.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:46:43 2015 No.5948766 >>5948733 >Language and culture are both biological, they are both products of the brain, a completely biological entity. Not that anon but if language and culture are immanent to nature, then nature is itself linguistic and cultural.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:55:47 2015 No.5948803 >>5947151 >sluts with controllers >implying women can play video games

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 12:03:32 2015 No.5948826

>>5948766
>Not that anon but if language and culture are immanent to nature, then nature is itself linguistic and cultural.
Not necessarily.
Biology is diverse, the world is diverse.
Plants don't have language as far as we know, how would they be linguistic?
Humans don't have photosynthesis, does it mean that photosynthesis isn't biological?

Language exists because certain genes evolved in our brain. When you lack these genes like most animals do, you don't have language. It's pretty simple.
It works the same way for every other human characteristic, you have biological features underlying them, and usually you can find approaching features in non-human relatives.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 12:06:23 2015 No.5948837

>>5948766
>>>Language and culture are both biological, they are both products of the brain, a completely biological entity.
>Not that anon but if language and culture are immanent to nature, then nature is itself linguistic and cultural.

careful with this : we know from the wild children (dunno really in english : the children abandoned and raised by wolves etc. ) that they spend their days by grunting, eating and masturbating, having the hardest time to learn to speak.

From this, we understand that the human is only like any other animal : a basic hedonism. The traditional hedonism is this basic hedonism galvanized by the advantages to be in a society.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 12:41:52 2015 No.5948927

>>5948826
>>5948837

I'm not saying *human* culture and language, but the way language and culture work.

"Linguistic" can mean simply "signifier chains" or "signification", and you can apply that to nature. DNA is probably the most famous signifier chain, being further translated into RNAs and then proteins. A plant turning towards the sun is another signifier chain, the plant reading the signs of the sun's presence.
IF you think about the whole nature that way, then there's no ultimate and unchangeable foundation or center outside of these signifier chains, nothing stopping them from endlessly reinterpreting each other, and everything becomes much like culture.

I say IF. But let's try to not think that way, let's say the linguistic aspect is merely one part among the many in nature and other parts are not signifier chains. But then comes the question: how is it possible that signifier chains exist (e.g. as human languages) without the dualism between culture and nature? Without this dualism we can't explain how signifier chains appear in nature - except by presupposing that they always already exist. Why? Because otherwise there must be that first original signification that appears out of nothing, that takes something that is not linguistic (a tree) and applies language to it (naming it "tree"), again, language that comes out of nothing. This first act of naming can then only come from God. But if there's no God to create signification out of nothing, then there's no first naming, signification must always already be in nature, so nature becomes much like text, having such phenomena as (mis)interpretation, (mis)translation, ambiguity, instability, context...

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 12:45:30 2015 No.5948936 >>5948826 >When you lack these genes like most animals do, you don't have language. >It's pretty simple. Oh Lord

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 12:52:44 2015 No.5948962

>>5948927
You can build some kind of cosmology around language if you're into that, but it doesn't change the fact that the language humans have comes from biology.
For example you can claim biology is merely a vehicle for language or something like that, but then you can't exclude biology from gender, culture or whatever else some would only attribute to language.

>>5948936
Biology is fundamentally simple.
Molecules organized to create function.
A function like reproduction or a social behavior relies on biological molecules organized and interacting together.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 13:24:17 2015 No.5949028 >>5948962 >A function like reproduction or a social behavior relies on biological molecules organized and interacting together. do you believe that the reproductive functionality is mighty/from god or that it is more an aleatory event ?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 13:46:09 2015 No.5949086 >>5949028 heh. I think we got ourselves one of them "intelligent design" folks.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:06:59 2015 No.5949151 >>5945905 If any anons want to read about the case from Butler herself: http://libgen.org/book/index.php?md5=6270349f791f89407a0e782731204a15 It starts on page 58 at the bottom and it's written in a very clear language.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:13:10 2015 No.5949169

>>5949028
I have no reason to believe in god.
Randomness is an explanation for the first self-assembling molecules, but reproduction after that merely comes from the ability of organisms to reproduce and the disappearance of organisms that didn't reproduce one way or another.
You don't need to ponder over biology of the past like how the first cells came about to study biology of the present like the differences between man and woman.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:20:05 2015 No.5949202 >>5949151 Not available here. Any other links?

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:22:37 2015 No.5949213

>>5945905
It's both. Transgender is a mental defect like depression or adhd. I know Marxists like to make a huge shit about gender relations but I find it of little importance. All of their analysis that I've read is too closely tied to their morality bias for me to not roll my eyes. Foucault and his analysis of the first mental cases being treated comes to mind. Otherwise great stuff having to constantly return to a victim and oppressor.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:25:27 2015 No.5949218 >>5949213 >I know Marxists like to make a huge shit about gender relations but I find it of little importance. Actually marxists hate gender theorists. They claim they are po-mo bullshit that obscure and mystify class-struggle

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:27:11 2015 No.5949223 >>5948927 That's why it is said that the Symbolic needs to be always "already-there", right?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:28:43 2015 No.5949228 >>5949202 Try these: http://bookzz.org/md5/6270349f791f89407a0e782731204a15 http://lib.estrorecollege.org/view.php?id=542046 (epub) http://en.bookfi.org/md5/27F31324BB134284024BDE93795CA2A2

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:34:29 2015 No.5949245 >>5949228 Thanks anon, you are great

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:58:11 2015 No.5949309

>>5949228
"Whereas the Money Institute enlists transsexuals to instruct Brenda in the ways of women, and [[[[in the name of normalization]]]], the endocrinologists prescribe the sex change protocol of transsexuality to David for him to reassume his genetic destiny, [[[[in the name of nature]]]]
Importantly, it seems, the norms govern intelligible gender for Money are those that can be forcibly imposed and behaviorally appropriated, so the malleability of gender construction, which is part of his thesis, turns out to require a forceful application. And the nature” that the endocrinologists defend also needs a certain assistance through surgical and hormonal means, at which point a certain nonnatural intervention in anatomy and biology
is precisely what is mandated by nature. So in each case, the primary premise is in some ways refuted by the means by which it is implemented. Malleability is, as it were, violently imposed. And naturalness is artificially induced."

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