So I've read the book of the new sun? Where do I go from here, everything else fantasy wise I've read is so much inferior. Do I read book of the long sun? does it hold up in comparison? Is there even anything similar to BotnS? Thanks a lot /lit/

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Anonymous Sat Jan 3 15:39:00 2015 No.5944387 [Reply] [Original]

So I've read the book of the new sun?

Where do I go from here, everything else fantasy wise I've read is so much inferior.

Do I read book of the long sun? does it hold up in comparison?

Is there even anything similar to BotnS?

Thanks a lot /lit/

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 15:43:15 2015 No.5944399 >someone takes these Goku kills Freeza fan-fiction books serious

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 15:51:14 2015 No.5944426 The Gormenghast novels

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 15:57:12 2015 No.5944448 If you don't find the catholicist angle too repulsive you can read Urth of the New Sun. Drags on a bit in places but overall pretty gut.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 15:57:49 2015 No.5944453 File: 14 KB, 439x439, 10271589_10201087050973223_4502621984761069946_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >an undine will never try to pull you underwater and take you for her own >mfw

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 16:15:04 2015 No.5944550 >>5944448 It continues the story of severian right? Is it in the same vein as BotnS or different? From what I've read about it, it seems to be more straight forward with the catholicism than BotnS which is a bit more subtle and open to intepretation.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 16:17:45 2015 No.5944575 File: 134 KB, 640x480, nursin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >mfw nursing an erection

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 16:24:45 2015 No.5944629 >>5944387 urth of the new sun is pretty good if you havent read it yet. it's just more severian. fun. 5th head of cerberus is bretty dope. I haven't read any other wolfe besides those, though, but I plan to

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 16:26:07 2015 No.5944642

>>5944550
Yes, comparable in style but more straightforward and, in addition to having completely new adventures with Space Jesus, it points out some of the big things you may not have noticed in BotNS if you weren't paying attention. Either way I'd read a few other books inbetween BotNS and Urth rather than go at it right away

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 16:29:37 2015 No.5944665 >>5944642 I respectfully disagree with thus gentleman. I think you'll enjoy Urth of The New Sun more if you go right into it. It's really a continuation of Book of The New Sun, so it would kind of be like reading other books between the BotNS books.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 16:30:57 2015 No.5944673

Urth is good and worth reading, the first half is kinda ehh but the second half is great and answers a lot of questions you probably have about Severian's relationship to the Conciliator and Apu-Punchau.

I like the Fifth Head of Ceberus better than BotNS. Haven't read Long Sun yet but I plan to sometime this year.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 16:32:27 2015 No.5944687 Can I move straight from BotNS to BotLS without reading Urth of the New Sun?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 16:34:11 2015 No.5944697 >>5944687 yeah, but why don't you want to read it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 16:35:41 2015 No.5944707 >>5944575 he does have a punchauble nose

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 16:58:10 2015 No.5944844 >>5944673 I'll definetly check out Fifth head of the cerberus. The ending of BotnS is just too amazing, I might have to dig into Urth before just cause I'm so invested into it right now

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:07:15 2015 No.5944894

book of the long sun and book of the short sun. I'd skip out on urth of the new sun but if you've already read it whatever. it's really not worth reading, it just fleshes out all of the shit implied by the ending of the book of the new sun. gene wolfe didn't want to write it in the first place.
other books by wolfe are good. the latro books. endangered species. the fifth head of cerberus. the island of doctor death and other stories and other stories.

>>5944399
lol what a pleb

>>5944687
yes and you should.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:24:13 2015 No.5945013 hmm some say read urth some say don't

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:25:41 2015 No.5945026 >>5944575 that image will forever be how I imagine that character from now on

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:26:20 2015 No.5945032 >>5944575 typhon pls

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:27:25 2015 No.5945042 >>5945013 it's good, I honestly don't see the problem people have with it. BotNS is complete without it, but Urth doesn't take away any mystery or detract from the original in any way

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:27:28 2015 No.5945044 >>5945013 It's not bad, and it's not like nothing happens in it either, just the "deeper level" is the same and in this way it doesn't add much to the first books. That's why it's not considered as "the fifth book of BotNS".

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:37:31 2015 No.5945126

>>5944387
You will never find fantasy (it's actually sf, but whatever) as good as this because this is just literary fiction. You may want to check Urth, it may not be as good as BotNS, but hey what is? The Wizard Knight is a real fantasy and it is very fun. Not quite as deep or filled with layers of symbols, thoughts and theology, but it is a good read. After BotNS, Silmarillion and Children of Hurin it is the best fantasy you can find. 5th Head of Cerberus is also insane and well written. His stories are hit or miss but are worth checking out. Skip Sorcerors House, it's just an average book.

Gene Wolfe has a problem of setting the bar too high for himself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:47:01 2015 No.5945200 >>5944387 Bump

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:54:18 2015 No.5945259 Is Gene Wolfe the Jeff Mangum of /lit/ now? I've been gone for awhile.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:55:43 2015 No.5945267 >>5945259 /lit/ doesn't read autistic wish-fulfillment character charts. These people are not welcome

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:56:36 2015 No.5945276 If your conception of the fantasy genre is Tolkienesque junk, large-scale adventure stories in invented worlds, then Wolfe might be the best you're going to do, but if you have a proper understanding of fantasy, then it's not even close

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 17:57:04 2015 No.5945282 >>5945259 Gene Wolfe is just Gene Wolfe. A great writer of literary fiction.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:00:24 2015 No.5945298 >>5944697 I feel satisfied with the conclusion to BotNS and I want to move on to a new setting and cast of characters now.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:00:51 2015 No.5945302

>>5945267
Are you clear on what I was asking? It doesn't appear that you were, because I don't have a clue what your response means.

In the same way that the album cover to In the Aeroplane Over the Sea (potato lady) became a /mu/ troll-meme, is BotNS the new polarizing /lit/ topic? I used /lit/ much more 3-4 years ago and I might have been the only person I ever saw mention Wolfe during that period, now there's like 4 threads either about him or mentioning him at all times.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:01:11 2015 No.5945305 >>5945298 Go for other Sun books or The Wizard Knight.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:02:12 2015 No.5945313 i see a lot of people also suggesting to reread BotnS after you are done with it, as it will make more sense and you'll notice things you haven't before and so on. do it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:02:44 2015 No.5945318 >>5945302 It's recognized as one of the best fantasy sf books out there and most of us love him.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:03:13 2015 No.5945325 What does /lit/ think of the Hyperion Cantos? Thinking of reading them before BotNS so as to not be spoiled, according to this thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:05:28 2015 No.5945340 >>5945325 The 1st one is worth reading. I was tired of it by the end of the 2nd

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:06:27 2015 No.5945344 >>5945276 name some fantasy books that aren't junk then and tell us how it is different, it's useless when people drop an opinion on something else without leaving their alternative

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:06:53 2015 No.5945346 >>5945325 it's nicely written compared to most sf&f but the narrative falls apart

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:07:01 2015 No.5945347 >>5945282 >>5945318 That's not my question. I love Gene Wolfe unironically, just as I did NMH long before 4chan existed. I'm just wondering if the comparison is apt, in the context of board-culture.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:07:08 2015 No.5945350 >>5945325 It was good when I was 14. How does it compares to Wolfe? It pales. It's just a fun sf at best.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:08:27 2015 No.5945358 >>5945347 I think we honestly like him like we like Kafka. Also NMH is awesome.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:10:58 2015 No.5945375 >>5945347 wolfe is just the author that the fantasy neckbeards use to justify their juvenile taste in lit

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:12:45 2015 No.5945383 >>5945375 But I'm not a huge fantasy fan. Only read like 3 fantasy authors.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:15:30 2015 No.5945404 I'm on the last couple pages of BotnS and I just don't want it to end. This is actually making me feel a bit depressed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:17:13 2015 No.5945416 >>5945404 It's the most re-readable novel I've read. Why not read it again?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:18:05 2015 No.5945420 >>5945347 No, Gene Wolfe isn't the Jeff Mangum of /lit/. I'd say Infinite Jest is the ITAOTS of /lit. So that would probably make DFW the Jeff Mangum of this board. >>5945375 That's a nice opinion, m8. You can go back to your /lit/core threads now.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:19:37 2015 No.5945428 >>5945420 I think GW should make it into litcore. He deserves it. Also yeah DFW is the local meme.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:20:48 2015 No.5945433

Urth of the New Sun unquestionably.

Check out his shorter fiction. Fifth Head of Cerberus of course, but a lot of is brilliant. The Death of Dr. Island is my favorite Gene Wolfe. Not to be confused with The Island of Dr Death or The Death of the Island Doctor.

You'd also like John Crowley. Start with The Deep.

Not as fine a writer as those other two, but check out out Jack Vance. He was a big influence on Gene Wolfe along with many others. If you have a Kindle you can get the absolutely excellent Jack Vance Treasury ebook. It starts with The Dragon Masters, one of his finest.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:36:09 2015 No.5945531

>>5945428
Eh, I don't think he should. There are too many idiots here who just write him off as being yet another fantasy/sci-fi author. All of the threads about the Book of the New Sun are just full of the same people, saying the same things. There is never anything new about him being said and no one talks about his other books.

>>5945433
Seconding Jack Vance. Or at least the first of his Dying Earth cycle. The rest aren't really all that similar to Gene Wolfe or his books.

Also recommending Clark Ashton Smith. There's a collection of his work that Gene Wolfe wrote an introduction to.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:48:09 2015 No.5945608

>>5945531
He wrote a lot of stuff, just going through the Sun series takes serious commitment.
Going into /lit/core should be about what we like and what is good. I don't think people write him off, it's just that fact that there are trolls on 4chin. Also there aren't any new people on /lit/ in general, it's a niche hobby in terms of 20 yo.
Those that do read him like op usually come in with praise looking for more.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:48:40 2015 No.5945614 What do you guys think about Book of the Long/Short Sun?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 18:53:00 2015 No.5945639 >>5945614 I've read 12 GW books, will get around that this year.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:22:32 2015 No.5945812 >>5945614 Long Sun is really good, Short Sun is almost as great as New Sun.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:32:10 2015 No.5945850 >>5944387 These are good books, but Wolfe has a shit-tier sexual complex and I get the feeling he might be a bit of a reactionary.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:34:47 2015 No.5945858 Viriconium It's somewhat similar to Gene Wolfe, but not really. Something about it captivates me to continue reading like BotNS. Definitely on the same level.

Anonymous Sat Jan 3 19:59:44 2015 No.5945967

>>5945850
He's very, very right-wing. It sometimes shows through in his essays in Castle of Days and certain interviews.

The sexuality thing isn't as big a problem in the Book of the New Sun, I think. It fits Severian's character and is easily brushed under the rug by that.

>>5945858
The Viriconium books are great.
Gormenghast is too, although that's already been mentioned earlier in the thread I think.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 3 20:17:18 2015 No.5946035 >>5945325 It's a shit collection by a lazy author. I regret my time wasted.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 05:00:14 2015 No.5947633 >>5945850 Might be? He is as hardcore Christian as was Dostoevsky, but I don't see how that is a problem. Also he does have a focus on sexuality in a lot of his books, but I don't see where the complex is.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 05:01:26 2015 No.5947638 Wolfe threads are so good, please don't let this die

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 05:04:02 2015 No.5947642 >>5944387 >So I've read the book of the new sun? Is that a question? What is that? Why?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 05:22:09 2015 No.5947685 >>5945858 Same level? Well that would be something. Also how many people here reread his works? I've reread BotNS and 5HoC and it's true what they say, it is even better on the second read because you can focus more on details and the characters.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 05:28:22 2015 No.5947706 >>5947638 Trying hard anon.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 06:02:54 2015 No.5947785 >>5947706 get off

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 06:06:23 2015 No.5947798 >>5947785 But it is one of the rare actual literature threads on right now and it's about one of my favourite authors.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 06:42:22 2015 No.5947860 >>5947798 +1

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 06:47:56 2015 No.5947877 File: 193 KB, 800x539, the_lies_of_locke_lamora_by_akru-d5wd823.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5944387 The Lies of Locke Lamora is good. It is a well written sci-fi fantasy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 06:49:15 2015 No.5947883 >>5947877 get that YA trash out of here please

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 07:56:28 2015 No.5948115 bump

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 08:00:07 2015 No.5948129 >>5948115 Don't think this will live, too few of us have read him to make this last longer, unless you have a specific topic to discuss. I don't since I've discussed the shit out of it with my brother and a friend.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 08:27:32 2015 No.5948202 >>5947633 >Also he does have a focus on sexuality in a lot of his books, but I don't see where the complex is. He handles sexuality in an abjectly juvenile way. It's one of my main criticisms of him.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sun Jan 4 08:32:53 2015 No.5948212 >>5948202 i read recently how severin was forced to eat the body of his former lover and got her full memories so he sometimes began to felt himself as she. brr, it's rather perversive than juvenile and perversive on several levels at once

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 08:35:36 2015 No.5948218 >>5948202 Most of his characters are juvenile, Severian is 19, Able is 12 (?). Only read the 1st in The Long Sun and there is no sex there, 5th Head Of Cerberus is just wierd in the 2nd novella.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 08:36:45 2015 No.5948220 >>5948212 Yes, that was very strange, but the whole book is like that. Have you read it or just read of that event?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 08:38:01 2015 No.5948224 Is Gene Wolfe to fantasy as Alan Moore is to graphic novels?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 08:57:58 2015 No.5948284 >>5948224 no

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:01:54 2015 No.5948288 >>5948284 >hating on Gene Wolfe Have you even read him?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:02:08 2015 No.5948289 >>5948224 No, Tolkien was a great writer so he wasn't the first to make something awful into something decent.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:02:36 2015 No.5948291 >>5948288 he could be hating on alan moore

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:03:27 2015 No.5948292 >>5948289 I mean contemporary >>5948291 in which case, the same applies

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:07:23 2015 No.5948309 >>5948292 In terms of SF/Fantasy I think he is easily the best writer of the genre if that's what you are asking.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:13:00 2015 No.5948334 >>5948288 Why have so few people here read him and so many for some reason dislike him?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:13:58 2015 No.5948336 >>5948334 Alan Moore, or Gene Wolfe?

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:17:40 2015 No.5948344

gene wolfe is everything alan moore ever strived to be and more. comparing the two is like comparing a mcdonalds burger to a proper homemade burger. while the mcdonalds burger will taste good, you ultimately know its terrible and not entirely good for you. Whereas with the homemade burger you know its of quality and you invested into it, thus making it a lot better as a whole.

woah

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:20:00 2015 No.5948352 >>5948336 Wolfe. Moore is more popular and less demanding so most of us here have at least seen a movie or two.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:21:20 2015 No.5948357

>>5948344
alan moore is everything gene wolfe a ever strived to be and more. comparing the two is like comparing a mcdonalds burger to a proper homemade burger. while the mcdonalds burger will taste good, you ultimately know its terrible and not entirely good for you. Whereas with the homemade burger you know its of quality and you invested into it, thus making it a lot better as a whole.

woah

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:22:58 2015 No.5948362 >>5948352 Movies have very little to do with Alan Moore, he hated every single adaption they ever made of his work.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:24:54 2015 No.5948367

>>5948357
mcdonalds burger is everything homemade burger a ever strived to be and more. comparing the two is like comparing gene wolfe to a proper alan moore while the gene wolfe will taste good, you ultimately know its terrible and not entirely good for you. Whereas with the alan moore you know its of quality and you invested into it, thus making it a lot better as a whole.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:25:41 2015 No.5948371 >>5948362 I know, but they made his work much more well known and due to them more people have read him. Him liking/disliking has little to do with it.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:29:42 2015 No.5948384

>>5948334
i don't dislike gene wolfe but nothing has inspired me to read him. i have never read a sample of his prose i particularly thought was good (by contrast, the first paragraph of lolita convinced me to read the book), the kind of people who talk about him praise aspects of him i'm not interested in (world building), and whenever i ask people why they like him their answers don't make me want to read him (not that their answers have been bad, they just haven't been good enough to make me want to read him).

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:30:59 2015 No.5948388

>>5948371
mcdonalds burger is everything gene wolfe ever strived to be and more. comparing the two is like comparing homemade moore to a proper alan burrito while the homemade moore will taste good, you ultimately know its terrible and not entirely good for you. Whereas with the alan burrito you know its of quality and you invested into it, thus making it a lot better as a whole.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:34:15 2015 No.5948397

>>5948224
Gene Wolfe is more significant. Alan Moore is significant only insofar as he revolutionized American cape comics. At an international level he's not much, especially given how small the US comics market is compared to the Japanese and French/European market. Gene Wolfe is well-regarded by fantasy readers both in the US and Europe (dunno about Asia).

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:35:31 2015 No.5948401

>>5948384
Tbh the prose is the only thing I enjoyed in Lolita.
Wolfe is great, not just for the world building, even if it is the best one I've ever read/seen.
He writes amazing characters that perfectly fit their setting. His worlds are alien, but his characters always feel like they were actually born and raised there which is a feat IMO. He has tons of symbolism and a lot of simple wisdom like medieval saints, if that makes sense.
It's also interesting to read something that draws you in that much because due to the vididness of his writing and the impressions he creates in his readers I could say that it was the most living experiance of reading I've had thus far.
Hope this highlights a few more interesting things in his works.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:40:40 2015 No.5948411 >>5948397 Why is there a stigma that fantasy isn't literary fiction (ok aside tons of junk and pleb readers)?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:42:11 2015 No.5948418 >>5948397 Alan Moore is British, a lot of his work is pretty explicitly so (V for Vendetta, the League).

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:45:41 2015 No.5948432 >>5948411 because it's badly written childish escapism in almost every instance

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:45:51 2015 No.5948435

>>5948411
Because tons of junks and pleb readers.

Good fantasy by famous authors tend to not be labeled fantasy at all. See, i have just read successfully On the Marble Cliffs (Ernst Jünger) and The Opposing shore (Julien Gracq). Both amazing reads labeled as literary fiction. If they weren't written by top authors for a über-patrician readership the books would almost certainly be considered fantasy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:46:01 2015 No.5948437 >>5948411 Why is there a stigma that graphic novels aren't literary fiction?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:49:42 2015 No.5948442 >>5948435 Although I think there is much more respect for SF, correct me if I'm wrong but older SF like Asimov and PKD is now considered to be classic.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:51:28 2015 No.5948445 >>5948418 Sure but what made him famous is Watchmen. Van Gogh is Dutch but his paintings matter mostly in the framework of French impressionism.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:52:27 2015 No.5948448 >>5948442 nope, they certainly have the same borderline reputation as tolkein.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:54:13 2015 No.5948452 >>5948442 Yes but even SF shares this stigma to a degree. I was talking about Jünger. He also wrote Heliopolis, a very good read too, that's classified as literary fiction but really is SF.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:55:10 2015 No.5948455 >>5948448 Well time will tell if Wolfe and the rest of SF crew is good enough to survive the test of time.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 09:58:04 2015 No.5948462 >>5948455 This. Somebody like Alexandre Dumas was considered a pleby genre author in his time. Yet a century and a half later he is still read the world over while most of his then more respectable contemporary are utterly forgotten.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:02:07 2015 No.5948469 >>5948462 dumas still has a strange reputation though, his reputation is fairly controversial

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:09:56 2015 No.5948481 >>5948469 As much as I dislike Austen she can also fit the description.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:17:30 2015 No.5948502

>>5945614
Long Sun is far more straightforward a narrative than New Sun. If anyone was ever going to make a film/show out of any of these books, that series would be my pick.

Short Sun is even weirder than New Sun was. It also sort of ruins the relatively happy ending of Long Sun, but it's still really good.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:19:32 2015 No.5948506
File: 397 KB, 450x312, 12343456456.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5944387
Love fantasy, but actually didn't care for this series
read the first two books and it didn't grab me enough to want to pursue the rest of them.
I can see why people would enjoy it, but this series just didn't do it for me.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:20:51 2015 No.5948508
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>>5945325
only read the 1st two books
the next two aren't even necessary to be honest

also the first hyperion book might be my all time favorite fantasy/sci-fi book
goddamn it was good

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:23:25 2015 No.5948513 >>5947877 >>5947883 thought about starting that but it did seem like it could be catered more towards YA

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:29:50 2015 No.5948535 >>5948218 There's very little sex in Long Sun. There's many references to prostitution and some lesbianism and homosexuality but that's all I can remember.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:31:59 2015 No.5948540 >>5948535 I'll have to pick it up after I read the stockpiles of classics I already have.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sun Jan 4 10:39:23 2015 No.5948560 >>5948220 i'm reading that book now

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:41:28 2015 No.5948565 >>5948560 Enjoy the ride my love.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:42:40 2015 No.5948568 What are these books actually about thematically?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:43:21 2015 No.5948573 >>5945858 They aren't on the same fucking level, what have you been smoking? They have a similar setting, but none of the depth or real beauty that makes New Sun signficant.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:45:13 2015 No.5948576

>>5947877
It's rennaissance fantasy without gunpowder, and with some glass buildings left behind as the only science fiction element to it. Very shallow, no under-running themes whatsoever. Entertaining, but in the same way that a blockbuster is, that is, without subtext or anything to make it memorable.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:45:42 2015 No.5948577 >>5948560 Good for you

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:46:25 2015 No.5948579 >>5948568 Journey of Severian through sin.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:49:50 2015 No.5948590 >>5948579 OK, so Severian is a Christ symbol? But isn't he actually a bit of a nasty character? So does that make it a satire of Christianity?

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:50:37 2015 No.5948591

>>5948481
austen was not incredibly popular in her time and her reputation is assured because of small groups upper class writers who considered her a writer of subtlety and realism that common readers couldn't appreciate. her renewed popularity with the average reader happened later. her reputation is really not very similar to from what i know of dumas's at all.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:51:54 2015 No.5948597 >>5948590 It's a very Christian book with tons of theology and metaphysics. Severian is not a symbol of Christ, Wolfe said that explicitly. He is just a Christian figure. He starts nasty, which is why the central theme is journey through life and sin.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:53:25 2015 No.5948601 >>5948591 Wasn't she chick lit back when she wrote?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 10:58:31 2015 No.5948614 >>5948601 No, she's chick lit now.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:09:13 2015 No.5948641

>>5948601
here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_history_of_Jane_Austen

she was read by men and women and was favored among the elite... her reception until recently was pretty much the opposite of "plebby", she was a writer for well bred aristocrats.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:22:53 2015 No.5948681

>>5948224
>>5948397
Hello, wake up. Wolfe is nowhere near as influential to SF & fantasy as Moore is to comics. Anyone who writes for comics, gives a shit about art layouts or really just reads comics in general, will know Moore and know his works well. In contrast there's a world of SF or fantasy readers and writers who either haven't read Wolfe or at least on whom he's had no effect. He's just two or three entries to pick out of the SF/Fantasy Masterworks lists.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:39:20 2015 No.5948734 >>5948681 Anyone who aspires to write quality sf has read Wolfe. Just look at the first pages of his books, they are always filled with comments from other significant writers on how good he is m

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 11:50:25 2015 No.5948781

>>5948734

that really doesn't say much

I agree with anon, Moore is a titan in comics. Wolfe is really really good but it doesn't really compare in terms of the influence they had on their respective niches. If we're talking influence, Tolkien would be a better match

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 12:25:47 2015 No.5948876 >>5945850 He obviously likes women with red hair, big tits, and tall stature, sometimes very tall stature. I don't see what's so shit-tier about that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 13:02:22 2015 No.5948977 >>5948442 Even bad SF tends to have (used to?) at least some novel idea in world building. Bad fantasy is just recycled trash with the names changed.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 13:05:24 2015 No.5948985

>>5948508
Yes, the first book was good, but the author couldn't really keep things together in the second book. The second pair of books is just crap and should be avoided.

>>5948513
It was pretty fun, but it's a pure adventure novel. There's no depth there. It could probably make a good movie.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 13:28:51 2015 No.5949041
File: 360 KB, 1105x1825, bober2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anyone want to talk about what Long Sun was about? I'm waiting on the first Short Sun book, I assume more stuff is revealed in those books. But, why was the Whorl launched? Why were people awake and asleep?

I liked Long Sun. Its no where near as good as New Sun, but still great. Those first few pages, when Silk is enlightened, are prefect. Just as good if not better than anything else Wolfe has written.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 13:30:47 2015 No.5949047 >>5948876 Dorcas is a small blonde with no tits and a boyish look, Thecla is tall, pale and had black hair, the elf was green. Idk man there are fetishes for everyone in his books.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:38:53 2015 No.5949258 >>5948508 Reading the prologue right now, is it just supposed to be world-building? It's just throwing out terms like Time Tombs, time debt, Worldweb and so on. Is there some clearer exposition later, or should I be googling shit?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 14:49:19 2015 No.5949284 >>5948401 How is it vivid? Everything about the world and setting is vague and dreamy because of how vague and ambiguous Severian writes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 16:07:58 2015 No.5949550 >>5949284 Very much this. Reading Shadow for the first time felt like a dream, particularly during some of the stranger sections, like in the gardens or Severian recounting Thecla's account of the mirrors. Or Severian's dream about the giants

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 16:55:38 2015 No.5949737 >>5949284 It's vivid in its vagueness and dreamyness.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 17:03:41 2015 No.5949781 >>5944387 i dont really get these books, can someone tell me what the hype is all about? i finished the first one and literally nothing happened apart from him finding he has the claw and not dying from the flower thing, whats up with that btw?

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 17:06:46 2015 No.5949800

>>5949781
Never read because of hype.
That said, I wasn't really interested either by the end of the first book. Read on if you want to find out.

>>5949737
That doesn't make any sense. At best your reading experience could be vivid, but not the writing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 17:09:05 2015 No.5949813 >>5949800 Phrased my thoughts akwardly, you got it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 17:10:42 2015 No.5949823 >>5949781 Definitely keep reading. There's a point to things, but it can take until it becomes apparent.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 17:18:01 2015 No.5949859 >fantasy in first person Absolutely disgusting.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 17:21:55 2015 No.5949888 >>5949859 What about fantasy makes it less suited to being written in the first person?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 17:26:05 2015 No.5949910 >>5949888 he's butthurt that others can enjoy something other than 3rd person omniscient narrative kmart realism novels nice trips btw, v nice, p dece

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 17:27:22 2015 No.5949914 >>5949888 You can't effectively wold build in first person.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 18:17:19 2015 No.5950170 >>5949914 But he did and it's one of the most detailed worlds you can find.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 18:22:45 2015 No.5950203 >>5949859 Your average fantasy reader right there.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 18:32:20 2015 No.5950245 >>5944387 Best thread on /lit/ I've seen in a while, I thank anons for a quality discussion.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 18:39:09 2015 No.5950278 File: 277 KB, 1600x651, 39492_1316175695_large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] can't go wrong with His Dark Materials

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 18:41:06 2015 No.5950284 >>5949914 You can't effectively infodump in the first person.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 18:41:30 2015 No.5950286

>>5949910
I actually think the way A Song of Ice and Fire does it is pretty cool. Its third person but its restricted to the knowledge and perception of the chapter character. That way you get the obligatory exposition dumping as well as Wolfe-style easter egg moments, like when you realize one of the characters being described is actually another person in disguise.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 19:01:55 2015 No.5950393 >>5949914 well it's too bad wolfe did effectively world build in the first person you really should read the work you're trying to criticize, you'd sound a whole lot more intelligent

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 19:21:52 2015 No.5950497 File: 368 KB, 1368x2048, WoR_MAP-FROSTLANDS_v02_fmt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5950284 THE PEARLS THE PEARRRRRRRLS >I am a Stick!

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 19:24:32 2015 No.5950511

I just though about buying that but so far I didn't order it.
I've read a lot of high wuality sci-fi but only simple epic high fantasy. From what I read about this book it seems like one of those "outer rim; uncivilized" worlds in space operas where high and low tech is mixed. If that's what I get I won't bother reading it

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 20:51:19 2015 No.5950862 OP may want to read Steven Brust's Taltos series. Not in the same league as Gene Wolfe, but it has similar elements.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 21:40:45 2015 No.5951079 >>5950511 Not quite, it's more in the Dying Earth vein, set in the far future. But yeah, there's a mix of high and low tech. That really isn't the focus of the novels though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 22:49:04 2015 No.5951508 >>5951079 The Dying Earth doesn't even feel like it's the far future. There are so many fantasy elements present it might as well just be its own fantasy world. And then there's Cugel.

Anonymous Sun Jan 4 22:52:38 2015 No.5951524

I just want to point out that Vance' work, while excellent, is in a fundamentally different mode from Wolfe.

If you like Wolfe read Lafferty. Other good choices may include other American New Wave and immediately post-New Wave authors. But mostly Lafferty really who is probably better than Wolfe all told although much less of a traditionalist formally and stylistically.

If you like Vance and particularly Cugel I strongly recommend James Branch Cabell.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sun Jan 4 22:57:17 2015 No.5951549 >>5948565 :3 >>5951508 cugel is more sympathetic than this 'christ-like' narcissistic torturer, severian is much like jolenta in a way

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 23:22:46 2015 No.5951665 >>5949041 Short Sun explains a lot. Its much more of a sequel to Long Sun than Long Sun was to New Sun.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 4 23:37:39 2015 No.5951734 >>5951665 I'll probably have On Blue's Waters tomorrow. Just tell me what is the purpose of the Whorl!

Anonymous Mon Jan 5 01:49:40 2015 No.5952302

>>5951734
I can't remember which of this is explicitly stated and which is my own speculation but, the Whorl is a generation ship meant to to populate another star system. The people of the whorl are descendant's of humans from Typhon's reign on Urth. Some of those original Urth residents are still asleep in tubes, but they can't properly recall their history because Typhon screwed with their memory, possibly because if they remembered Urth they'd just hijack the ship and go home(?). There's also clones bred to serve specific roles in society. There's people awake and arranged into cities because there needs to be a large population of human beings to sow across the new world so it will be a success even if there's massive casualties. I assume you can't colonize with only tube people because it would be unfeasible to bus enough people from Urth to the Whorl to populate another planet, and their lack of memories make them unsuitable as settlers. Clones need parents to raise them, so you can't colonize with only clones either.
So the cities are like human farms, breeding enough people to ensure the success of the mission and for propagating societal memes. By having all these living breathing societies, it ensures that the settlers will have basic concepts of civilization, currency, religion, morality etc. Having different cultures and different biomes increases adaptability. I believe the reason why everything is so low tech and crappy in there is so that the settlers are hardy and ready for rural living upon arrival.
I haven't finished Short Sun though so a lot of that might be wrong.

Anonymous Mon Jan 5 02:32:54 2015 No.5952428

>>5952302
Thanks. A lot of that I already inferred from long sun. Other than over heating, the main reason the whorl is dying is over population. this used to be mitigated by child sacrifice. Or it could just be the build up of generations. Over population and child sacrifice were encouraged, as part of a selective breeding program. Weak genes get flushed into the tunnels. Of course, this could help colonization, or something more sinister. There is no better race to enslave humanity other than the inhumi. Everything you said can be true, as well as the whorl being hijacked by the inhumi.

Anonymous Mon Jan 5 03:51:01 2015 No.5952555

>>5952428
As far as we can tell Quetzal is the only inhumu on the Whorl, and it's a puzzle how he got there. But it's speculated that because inhumi take on the characteristics of the people they feed on that Quetzal really was a well-intentioned figure and not nearly as monstrous as the inhumi living on Green.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 5 05:39:25 2015 No.5952689 Put the Gene Wolfe garbage down and read Jack Vance, whose Dying Earth series was what Gene lifted in order to make his New Sun abomination.

Anonymous Mon Jan 5 15:52:23 2015 No.5954689

>>5951549
what has happened in new sun so far that you'd call severian christlike? it didn't sound like you were far enough earlier to know of anything in particular that he does. I agree, though, that severian is a pretty awful person at times.
also, cugel wasn't sympathetic at all. he wasn't clever, he was just deranged and self obsessed and happened to come out on top with surprising regularity. I like cugel, but I don't sympathize with anything that happens to him because he usually deserves it.

>>5952689
right, because jack vance didn't lift the dying earth from clark ashton smith's zothique? the only real similarity between the dying earth and urth is the fact that both of them have a sun that is on the verge of death. the sun isn't even that important in vance's work,it's just in the narrative's background. you haven't read the dying earth, that much is plain, and you likely haven't read new sun either.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 5 16:30:57 2015 No.5954820 File: 18 KB, 240x210, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5945282 This shit right here. "It's not speculative fiction. It's to good for that." Go fuck yourself if you feel this way

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 5 16:33:24 2015 No.5954828 >>5947883 Go fuck yourself. Use your tiny elitist dick to do it. Lies is bitching.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 5 16:36:01 2015 No.5954837 >>5948411 Because assholes like>>5948432 Want desperately to control what's considered "acceptable" literature because then they can decide what makes you smart.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 5 16:38:23 2015 No.5954841 >>5948576 >I couldn't see under-running themes do to bias Fixed it

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 5 17:52:55 2015 No.5955140 >>5954689 People are mislead into thinking Severian is Christ very easily not only because he is a lying son of a bitch, but because he turns water to wine, ressurects a few people and rejects the temptations of Satan.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 5 17:55:05 2015 No.5955148 >>5954820 It is speculative fiction amongst many other things, it's much more about Severian than it is about the word. So it isn't really in the same category as PKD for example (I love Dick btw)

Anonymous Mon Jan 5 18:23:02 2015 No.5955317

>>5945126
>Silmarillion and Children of Hurin it is the best fantasy you can find
Tolkien plebs are the worst plebs
Wolfes soldier series
Evangeline Walton Mabinogion
Fritz Leibers Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
Poul Andersons Broken Sword and Three Hearts and Three Lions

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 5 21:55:58 2015 No.5956393 >>5947877 That....really isn't a good picture to advertise the series. Lies is one of my favourite books, and that makes it look like teen fiction.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 03:59:23 2015 No.5957422 OP here I decided to get The Wizard Knight and after that read Urth. Wizard Knight seems a lot more simplistic, sadly. Might make Wizard Knight thread in a few days

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 05:05:07 2015 No.5957534 >>5955317 >implying I haven't read those Man I really think Tolkien is the best fantasy author aside Wolfe and Le Guin

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 05:39:46 2015 No.5957611

damn OP I feel you

after I read those books and Urth I literally stopped reading sci-fi. All I read just feels "childish" and stupid

Like really, I dont even know where to start on how great this series is, it has everything a scifi book should have. Favourite moments are:

1st book, while he is in the serra and see the "past" ghosts, and an elicopter(or airplane, dont remember)

THE WHOLE PART in the..2nd? book about typhon

that fucking moment where he eats her

all the ""post-cyberpunk"" with is android friend

Just tell me what to read, I want more, I need more like this. Fuck YA

I started reading Perdido Street Station and its fucking shit

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 05:43:12 2015 No.5957619 >>5957611 Peridio was boring. Cool ideas and good writing, but no characters or conflict to care about.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 12:17:48 2015 No.5958636 bump for the grace of god

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 12:19:20 2015 No.5958637

>>5957422
Yeah it's pretty simple by comparison but it definitely has its moments. I think it works better on an emotional level than New Sun does.

>>5957611
Have you read the Book of the Long Sun and the Book of the Short Sun? It seems pretty logical that you'd read those next. Other works by Gene Wolfe outside of the Solar Cycle are good, too. Specifically his short story collections, the Island Of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories being my favorite. Endangered Species is great, too, and even contains two short stories set on Urth, in Nessus and the House Absolute. His Latro books are alright though no where near as good as the Solar Cycle. The Fifth Head of Cerberus is pretty great, too, and definitely worth reading if only for the second of the three works contained in it.

Finding good science fiction outside of Gene Wolfe is difficult. There are plenty of requests already in this thread. One of specific note that I enjoyed are Zothique by Clark Ashton Smith and Viriconium by M. John Harrison. They're only superficially like the Book of the New Sun, though, so don't expect anything too great.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 12:34:48 2015 No.5958675 >>5958637 Remember the scene where Able talks to the archangel? It's one of the most epic and somehow moving moments in not only in terms of GW, but in general Indeed The Wizard Knight is worth reading. I also love the setting.

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 14:04:17 2015 No.5958929

>>5958675
I really liked that scene. One of the best between the two books. Also, when he meets the Most Low God and it tries to tempt him
I actually wouldn't mind a thread about the Wizard Knight. There are definitely some parts of it that are worth talking about.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 15:05:06 2015 No.5959154 >>5958929 Different faggot, but reading Short Sun. Than Wizard Knight thanks to you.

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 15:13:49 2015 No.5959178

>>5958929
We can just do it here.

Anyway what would be his best that isn't in The Solar Cycle, 5HoC and TWK? Since I've read most of that and am interested in reading some more of his experiments. Although I wasn't impressed by Sorcerer House and There Are Doors. Not including his short stories like The Island Of Doctor Death that is one of the best short stories I've read so far.

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 16:52:08 2015 No.5959566

>>5959154
I hope you read Long Sun first, friend. I think Short Sun is infinitely better, though.

>>5959178
There Are Doors almost turned me off from Wolfe completely. I read it immediately after New Sun and it was just so much worse. Peace is certainly worth reading if you haven't read it. Probably his best non-sf/fantasy book. I also enjoyed Free Live Free, Castleview, The Land Across, and the Devil in a Forest. I'd probably suggest that you read the first two Latro books before any of those though, because they compare fairly well to what you've already read. Haven't felt inclined to read the third one yet, so can't say much about it. Also, the short story collection the Best of Gene Wolfe is worth a read, or at least worth owning because it contains a great many of his better short works and his commentary on them.

That all being said, I think a lot of his stuff falls considerably shorter than the Solar Cycle. Even 5HoC and TWK.

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 18:17:26 2015 No.5959999

>>5959566
It's hard when you set the bar for yourself so high. And since he experiments a lot there isn't a consistency that some other writers have.
I'll have to save a few shekels to order Urth and the rest of the Solar Cycle, I definitely want to finish it by the end of the year.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 18:55:54 2015 No.5960247 >>5959566 What is up with There Are Doors? I mean, someone else must have written it, right? Or maybe we're missing something. It was really awful.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 19:40:54 2015 No.5960477 >>5954841 Please enlighten me. I came from The Name of the Wind, which did actually have some satirical elements to it, so I was looking for subtext, but found nothing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 19:51:11 2015 No.5960541 >>5960247 It really is surprisingly bad. Pandora by Holly Hollander is almost as bad. I generally just brush it under the rug whenever Gene Wolfe comes up.

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 20:12:40 2015 No.5960653

>>5960541
I think blow too much of his load on New Sun. Long Sun is good, but no where near New. Reading Short Sun right now, which is good, just because Horn is older now and a better write. I know he's not Horn, but that doesn't matter per say. I know he's not Horn, but that doesn't matter per say.

The thing about Long Sun and There Are Doors, is that the characters who are writing the books in that universe, are either not great writers or dumb. Which is a poor excuse for bad writing. There are some parts of Long Sun that are great, on par with New Sun. But that's because Nettle wrote those parts. Which really is an interesting trick. But Green (its lame he was named at all) is just an idiot, who isn't the writer of his book, just an idiot that can't tell what is going on. And what is going on is kinda lame. I really want to like There are Doors, but its just not great, not great for Wolfe, not great for anyone else. What really annoys me is Wolfe could have been writing a Soldier book instead!

I have *the* best idea for The Book of the Old Sun. But I can't say, because I hope either Wolfe writes it, or I do when (if?) he dies.

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 20:45:39 2015 No.5960788

>>5960653
I agree, I think he spent too much of his creative juices on New Sun and burned out for a time as a result. It's too bad, really, that they made him churn out Urth afterwards, furthering his burnout on it all.

It is also unfortunate that the Soldier books didn't sell well enough to warrant an immediate third. I haven't read Soldier of Sidon because I really wanted the third book to be the closing one regarding Latro's story and based on what I've heard, Sidon isn't that.

I don't understand why he even wrote There Are Doors or Pandora by Holly Hollander. They're just so bad. I like Castleview but I recognize that it's almost on the same level of quality as the two above. I think There Are Doors could have been done much better and maybe then it'd have been a worthwhile addition to Wolfe's catalog but I don't know what would need to be added to do that.

On the topic of some of his lesser appreciated/shit ones, have you read the Devil in a Forest? It's pretty bad as far as the writing and plot go, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. There was just something about it.

I didn't even really consider the possibility that he could pen another addition to the Solar Cycle. I really hope he writes something more now, even if it isn't the Book of the Old Sun.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 21:47:08 2015 No.5961071 someone convince me in like a paragraph that i should read the fifth head of cerberus novella right now instead of more keats

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 21:48:04 2015 No.5961075

I think GW is nuts and gets a kick out of creating a world in his head, then impersonating out of place characters to view said world. Look at the Differences between Severian and Grafton from The Land Across. Wolfe really excels in making you feel like you can level with the narrator and understand them, for lack of a better word.

But what the fuck happened in The Land Across? What happened to the man in black? What's the implication of Vlad the Impaler? The Castle? I enjoyed it, but I feel like Wolfe said to himself: "You know, fuck it. Everyone speculates on BotNS like I intended. I bet if I just leave out plot elements here and there, people will think I'm deep and intentionally vague all over again."

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 21:55:25 2015 No.5961108 >>5961071 Read what you want to read, anon.

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 22:03:53 2015 No.5961139

>>5948508
What exactly does the series continue to? I really liked the ambiguous ending of Hyperion but I'm not sure if I really want to know what happens next. I think I'd rather imagine it, especially if the continuation isn't great.

>>5945350
I read Fifth Head before Hyperion and didn't enjoy it any less. I can't wait to pick up another Wolfe book though. I reread Fifth twice after finishing. It has so much depth

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 22:05:01 2015 No.5961145 >>5961139 It forces a love plot between Raul and Aenea, and ends in NANOMACHINES, SON. Don't read it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 22:06:02 2015 No.5961149 File: 500 KB, 1399x2048, kris10.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5949047 >Dorcas is a small blonde with no tits and a boyish look G-go on...

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 22:11:56 2015 No.5961175 >>5961145 That sucks, but it's nice to be spared a disappointing experience. Maybe I'll still read it at a much later date when I'm done with everything else I wanted to read

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 22:12:55 2015 No.5961181 >>5961175 It's even more disappointing because the author doesn't explain a lot of plot details. It's just like >welp here we are at the end of the series >gg no re Lazy fuck.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 22:18:47 2015 No.5961201 >tfw Gene Wolfe made you realize how terrible a writer you were and caused you to commit yourself to eternal improvement I'll be forever grateful for him for that. BotNS changed my life so profoundly.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 22:24:11 2015 No.5961221 >>5947877 That book was terrible, but even ignoring that for a second I can't see what it has in common with TBotNS to warrant a recommendation.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 22:28:06 2015 No.5961236 >>5948560 Then why are you in a thread where the book is being discussed, are you trying to have it spoiled for you? Maybe don't click on any Gene Wolfe threads until you're done with it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 22:29:33 2015 No.5961241 >>5948590 It's definitely not a satire of Christianity- it's replete with Christian allegory.

Anonymous Tue Jan 6 22:39:06 2015 No.5961266

>>5952428
Another reason why the whorl is dying is that it has been sitting in space by Blue and Green for too long, everything was designed and programmed for it to seed its population and then turn around back for Earth, but since few people know/remember the ship's purpose they are having trouble getting people to leave like the programs intend and so everything is going a bit haywire.

>>5952555
It seems likely to me that The Vanished Peoples would have sent Quetzal into the Whorl somehow to understand human beings , given that that's a strategy they use on the planets themselves.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 6 23:28:08 2015 No.5961463 >>5961266 What evidence do we have that the Whorl ever even moved?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 00:09:49 2015 No.5961587 >>5961463 You're kind of blowing my mind. That makes too much sense. After all, Urth's moon is green in New Sun.

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 00:17:30 2015 No.5961616

>>5961587
There is an insane (long) theory that all the trees on Urth are alive, and they are the vanished people. I myself assume (though still haven't read Short Sun, though I sorta know who the vanished people are) that the inhumi and the vanished people both evolved from the Green Men. My other theory is that New Sun is really about the civil war in between Abia and Erubus. From what I've read so far in Short Sun, maybe Blue has undines under it's waves.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 00:59:17 2015 No.5961766 >>5960788 What I like most about Wolfe is how all of his stories are twisted fairy tales. If Devil in a Forest is anything like that's I'll like it. Fabalists in general, stories with in stories, I love it all.

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 05:10:30 2015 No.5962362

>>5960653
What's your idea for old sun, or even just the framework of the dea? I'm very interested. I know that if I ever managed to get the rights to New Sun for a film adaptation, I'd probably write about Palemon's journey myself, and how he came to gain Terminus Est

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 05:11:34 2015 No.5962364 >>5961201 me too man

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 05:35:27 2015 No.5962390 >>5961149 Not like that. Well at least I didn't imagine her to look like that. Boyish in body, but not in face. Basically I gave her the face of one girl I met and can't even remember her name, but dayum she looked like what Gene had in mind.

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 05:48:04 2015 No.5962421

Read the malazan series by Erikson, its fucking amazing.

Very little legitimate criticism, only thing i could say is that most of his characters dont really develop. Which honestly i personally dont mind too much, because they are so good to begin with.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 05:52:45 2015 No.5962431 >>5962421 Yeah, except, the Frieza thing with BotNS? That was a joke, not an invitation for actual powerlevels wankst.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 05:56:50 2015 No.5962439 >>5962421 Mate, it's fantasy schlock. And characters not developing in 10000 pages speaks on how shit it is.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 06:00:57 2015 No.5962448 >>5962431 Eh, sorta. I can agree that the last two got out of hand with the broly bullshit, but goddamn. I dont think there is a fantasy author still writing that can match his prose.

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 06:12:21 2015 No.5962466

>>5962439
>schlock

M8, i dont care if you dont like it, but really?

“Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity – the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us. But if that is too dire, let’s call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.

How is this bad writing? I realize its not war and peace, but for genre fiction? I cant see many others on his level in the last few decades.

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 06:40:21 2015 No.5962515

>>5962466
One quote doesn't make good writing.
And it is schlock because he can't world building, he relies on a fucking appendix. Also like you've said not developing characters in one of the longest series in the past decades is really really bad. And it being genre fiction hardly makes it immune to comparison with good books.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 11:39:30 2015 No.5963353 >>5961616 What if the Green Men are Aelfs?

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 12:35:13 2015 No.5963492

>>5962362
My Old Sun idea is this: its basically Peace, but with Typhon as the main character. Its set in the same "universe", but in another universe, one where Typhon never went to sleep. He meets the Conciliator, and vows to wait till he returns to destroy him. The novel is him writing about his past his adventure, being emperor for thousands and thousands of years. Than at the end realizing the New Sun will never come, he's stuck in the universe where the sun dies.

Palemon got Terminus Est from the heirodules. Because he's a heirodule too.

>>5963353
Wtf are those?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 12:38:42 2015 No.5963503 >>5963492 They're from 'The Knight'

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 15:13:45 2015 No.5963979 >>5963492 I suppose that would explain the optics he wore - do you have any other evidence?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 15:36:33 2015 No.5964060 >>5963979 Just the fact that he was exiled but somehow came back and became a master of the guild.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 15:52:27 2015 No.5964130 File: 44 KB, 960x540, IMG-20150105-WA0000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5963353 Mind blown

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 21:21:05 2015 No.5965528 Should New Sun, Long Sun, Short Sun, all be read straight through? Or are they all independant enough to read stuff in between?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 21:43:27 2015 No.5965613 >>5965528 Long and Short Sun are closely related. Both share most of the same characters. But, they can be read further apart. Wolfe's novels really stick in your brain, take on their own mythology. There will be no need to read them close together.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 21:46:09 2015 No.5965624 what did humanity do to deserve the sun being dimmed?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 21:47:17 2015 No.5965626 >>5965528 new sun is independent of long sun/short sun you can read either without the other long sun/short sun should be read in order because short sun deals with the people who left the whorl and the state of affairs in it afterwards

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 22:07:03 2015 No.5965685 >>5965626 New Sun isn't wholly independent of Long Sun and Short Sun.

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 22:51:39 2015 No.5965845

>>5948462
>This. Somebody like Alexandre Dumas was considered a pleby genre author in his time.
all novelists were in the 19th century
dumas, dickens, austen, etc
it was considered that the only thing worst than to write them was to read them
poetry was still writing of the elite

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 22:52:58 2015 No.5965852 >>5948681 Wolfe would be influential to authors if not readers

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 22:58:34 2015 No.5965875

>>5949041
Typhon the two headed dictator of New Sun launched the Whorl, a hollowed out asteroid O'Neil Cylinder, to reestablish Earths star spanning empire
Cargo was transported in 3 states: living, suspended animation, and embryos to ensure a viable population would be able to make it to the planets even in the event of catastrophe effecting one or two of the types of cargo
Peoples minds were wiped so that they would not know they were merely living out their lives as cargo to provide future generations of colonists
And additionally to establish Typhon as a God to be worshiped
He would have downloaded himself in the body of a colonist when they arrived
There is some suggestion that the people in suspended animation and the embryos were selected for exceptional abilities that would aid in colonisation

The question is then why. What had happened to Urths empire, why was the sun dimmed.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:01:05 2015 No.5965885 >>5952428 It wasn't overpopulated, it was overheating

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:04:44 2015 No.5965897 >>5965685 they aren't mutually exclusive if you read new sun first, all that happens is you get to realise who the two-headed god identified as a typhoon is very early on

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:14:48 2015 No.5965931 >>5965624 Its never really explained, and the point is it doesn't matter. But, its probably trying to use it as a resource, or selling it to aliens from the demon dimension.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:26:08 2015 No.5965971 >>5965885 Its both. In the novels they talk about how child sacrifie used to be common, but no longer. And how another city has started filling its swamps with rice crops. There are two ways to cause a famine: less food, or more mouths.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:31:39 2015 No.5965989 >>5965931 >it doesn't matter well yeah it does, thats the whole point of the story with the archon going to go get a new sun and it destruction/rebirth and shit

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:32:10 2015 No.5965992

>>5965875
Urth's empire was already interstellar. Typhon himself was from Mars, and Jonas and Hethor both served on ftl ships. So even if Short Sun explains it all like that, I don't know, I really think it has to be deeper than that. Severian is the New Sun because he has prefect memory, but *what* the New Sun is is so much deeper than that. Just the fact that each city was given a chem army makes me think its not as simple as a simple colonization ship.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:32:39 2015 No.5965995 >>5965971 the child sacrifices were the product of typhons family being insane it wasn't for population control, they could have simply ordered people to have less they're planting in the swamps because of the drought

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:35:18 2015 No.5966011

>>5965989
I meant, the reason why it was dimmed doesn't matter. The reason why Eve ate the food doesn't matter, the reason why the Pharaoh enslaved the Jews doesn't matter. The red sun is the original sin of the New Sun universe. Remember, New Sun is about multiple universes and time travel, the heirodules choose that universe and Severian for a reason. There are infinite other Urth's were the sun dies.

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:38:32 2015 No.5966019

>>5965995
Its both. The child sacrifices wasn't for population control either, it was a breeding problem. I believe the Whorl was meant to produce a big ship full of either super soldier or super slaves. The populous would be super soldiers, and still the inhumi could enslave them very easily, with no risk.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:45:47 2015 No.5966043 >>5966011 Pharoh never enslaved the Jews, there is no historical record Eve ate because she was tempted, because she was female

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:48:28 2015 No.5966050

>>5966019
It wasn't breeding, Typhons wife and kids would simply demand # amount of babies killed
The people in suspended animation and perhaps the embryos had exceptional abilities that would aid the colonisation effort, there was no on board breeding program
You're making shit up with no support from the work

Next you'll be saying the grandfather is in on it, that it was cthulhu, and ask what was rust shooting at

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:48:34 2015 No.5966052
File: 104 KB, 600x722, Severian_Kicks_Back_by_Kusenoaru.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5962364
And you know, to that end, I think I have recognized one of the things the alzabo means. I realize it means several things (such as the Eucharist), but I think among those it represents the way writers draw on other writers.

Wolfe is a great lover of Borgers, and he owes much of his style and interests to him. Through Wolfe, Borges lives again, and to read Wolfe's writing is like eating the alzabo's flesh because you absorb Borges- and all the writers Borges was influenced by, in turn.

Likewise, since I am influenced by Wolfe, when someone reads my writing, they will absorb Wolfe, and through Wolfe absorb Borges, and through Borges absorb HG Wells and Mark Twain and so many others.

So that when Severian becomes the Autarch and takes on the memories of all who comes before him, what does he become, more than anything else, but an author? Who more than an author is a 'self-ruler,' since the author is the lord and god of all their stories, and all things within those stories?

And of course, since he's an author, Severian writes a Book.

Anonymous Wed Jan 7 23:50:12 2015 No.5966061

>>5966043
Sure. But it doesn't matter to those stories. Why did Gregor become a bug? Why did Slothrop's dick predict rockets? (that is sorta explained, but again it doesn't matter) Why was Lolita a gold digging whore? Why was the Judge in Glanton's gang? The sun is dying is a symbol, and the reason why the sun is dying is because its a symbol.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 00:15:45 2015 No.5966145 >>5966050 Which rust? Are you saying that Hyacinth was mainlining rust?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 02:18:48 2015 No.5966540 >>5966043 They were war prisoners probably and there are implications of it, but we are talking about the point of the story so it doesn't fucking matter.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 02:27:54 2015 No.5966562 >>5965992 Jonas and Hethor were from much earlier periods of time as a result of the FTL ships time dilation

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 02:30:01 2015 No.5966567 >>5966061 without the sun dying you have no story or plot or motivation you cant dismiss that as "just because"

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 02:35:35 2015 No.5966580 >>5966567 Our sun will eventually become a red dwarf like it is with the New Sun. It's maybe just so far in the future.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Thu Jan 8 02:44:21 2015 No.5966595

>>5966580
no way
firstly our sun will not become a red dwarf, it will get hotter (quite a bit) keeping its size and color, then it become a red giant and then a white dwarf, the life on the earth quite possibly will not survive even to the red giant stage (whose diameter will be wider than the current earth orbit)

secondly the old sun dies because it has a worm inside i.e. an artificial black hole

>You, the hero who will destroy the black worm that devours the sun;

>PROPHET: Yet even you must know that cancer eats the heart of the old sun. At its center, matter falls in upon itself, as though there were there a pit without bottom, whose top surrounds it.

Anonymous Thu Jan 8 14:00:54 2015 No.5968741

>>5959178

Peace, 5HoC, and the Doctor Death stories are fucking god-tier.

Peace is one of the best novels of the 20th century. I put it alongside the works of Proust, Faulkner, Joyce, etc. It's almost a perfect novel and it's a fucking shame it isn't more recognized. It also has the most "mainstream" appeal and if I had to pick a work of Wolfe's that would "endure" it would be Peace, not BotNS. BotNS will never get the proper amount of respect it deserves from critical and academic circles. It's sci-fi elements will keep it out of the critical spotlight because intelligentsia is full of realist loving faggots.

Peace, on the other hand, is a Literary Critics/Professors wet dream.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 14:05:46 2015 No.5968759 File: 7 KB, 300x225, Dorcas.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5961149 I always imagined Jennifer Aniston as being Dorcas. Fits the description perfectly.

Anonymous Thu Jan 8 14:07:04 2015 No.5968764

If I have to "thank" /lit/ for something is showing me The Book of the New Sun.
What's funny is that I haven't been to this board in months and first thing I notice is that there's a Gene Wolfe thread and that it's over 200 posts.

So here's a repost of the complete Solar Cycle in ebook form (companion books and stuff) which I had posted last year:
>http://www.mediafire.com/download/p213aybe4d986t6/SCCC-GW.zip

enjoy

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 14:08:50 2015 No.5968769 >>5968759 That actually fits rather well. Also Dorcas is THE waifu

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 14:11:51 2015 No.5968780 >>5968741 His time will surely come as it has for some other sf authors (to a degree, Asimov doesn't deserve that much praise anyway)

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 14:13:01 2015 No.5968787 >>5968764 Somehow the only book that gets serious discussion here is Book of the New Sun. Maybe a few more, but to a lesser extent.

Anonymous Thu Jan 8 14:22:14 2015 No.5968819

>>5968769

I do this really pleby thing where whenever I read a book I have to match up real-life people with the descriptions of the characters, if only so I can visualize the characters more vividly.

Maybe my imagination is shit but my reading experience is greatly enhanced when I do this.

>tfw I can post pictures of actors/people I thought look like all the characters of BotNS

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 14:58:30 2015 No.5968988 >>5968819 I don't usually do that, but I did it for Dorcas. God damn there was a younger girl in high school. She is 19 now but looks 11. I mean you can still see she is 19 if you pay attention. Dayum she was cute. Also do it faggot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:14:26 2015 No.5969090 File: 9 KB, 300x247, Severian.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5968988 >Severian. Always envisioned Severian as a younger and taller Guy Pearce

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:15:44 2015 No.5969099 File: 56 KB, 800x533, Vodalus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5968988 It's about to get real spammy up in here. >Vodalus Joseph Finnes

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:17:49 2015 No.5969110 File: 5 KB, 225x300, Jonas.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969099 >Jonas/ Miles Based Tadanobu Asano

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:19:04 2015 No.5969116 >>5969099 >>5969110 >>5969090 Dayum anon that's pretty much perfect. Now I want the good part. Dorcas, Milf and Agia

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:19:26 2015 No.5969122 File: 406 KB, 1200x1600, Jolenta.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969110 >Jolenta Christina Hendricks. >Dat bosom >Dem Hips >Dat Hourglass Body HNNNFFFF

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:21:22 2015 No.5969131 File: 190 KB, 1600x1200, Agia.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969116 Dorcas was posted above. >Agia Olivia Wilde >Dat naughty bitch >Dem failed assassination attempts >Implying she didn't want to fuck Severian the whole time.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:22:51 2015 No.5969139 File: 302 KB, 1600x1000, ChatelaineThecla.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969131 >Thecla Jennifer Conolly Severian had some prime pussy in his heydey.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:25:23 2015 No.5969152 File: 57 KB, 320x240, Master Ultan.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969139 Master Ultan Closest dude I can think of that looks like Borges. Alternatively, you can just envision him as Borges.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:27:51 2015 No.5969162 File: 104 KB, 861x578, Baldanders.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969152 >Baldanders Conan Stevens >inb4 he's a big guy.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:28:17 2015 No.5969167 >>5969152 Hmm has Wolfe had that much of love for Borges that he based Ultan on him?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:28:54 2015 No.5969172 File: 265 KB, 800x1200, DoctorTalos.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969162 >Dr. Talos David Thewlis Should I continue?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:30:33 2015 No.5969179 >>5969172 Sure, I'm loving this.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:30:40 2015 No.5969180 >>5969167 Yes. He's stated that Master Ultan was based on Borges. Ultan is a blind librarian, just like Borges was.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:32:01 2015 No.5969187 File: 80 KB, 635x831, ZombieInire.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969179 >Father Inire Old ass, half-dead Gene Wilder.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:33:17 2015 No.5969191 >>5969172 Never heard of this guy but that's exactly how I imagined the character, just with slightly longer facial hair. Uncanny.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:33:18 2015 No.5969192 File: 43 KB, 658x370, Hildegrin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969187 >Hildegrin Pedro Pascal

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:34:10 2015 No.5969194 >>5968764 Thanks anon, I've been looking for that link after the untimely demise of my computer.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:35:37 2015 No.5969201 File: 539 KB, 1024x768, Agilus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969192 >Agilus Joaquin Pheonix

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:43:04 2015 No.5969224 >>5969201 man he'd be pretty great for the role if he wasn't so old

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:43:22 2015 No.5969226 >>5969201 I think that's all the major ones. Some characters don't really have good descriptions (Palaemon, Drotte, Roche, Eata, etc.) so I never felt the need to liken them to a real life person. Anyone else important I'm missing? Maybe Typhon?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:48:40 2015 No.5969254 >>5969226 Post Ogre Magi

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:52:11 2015 No.5969275 >>5969226 >Maybe Typhon? Don't forget Piaton

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:53:34 2015 No.5969287 >>5969226 That aristocrat milf. Can't remember the name.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:56:00 2015 No.5969299 >>5969287 Cyriaca

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:57:03 2015 No.5969307 >>5969226 >Agia/Agilus Close enough, not so sure I'd say they look twin-ish. Missing: Valeria the old Autarch Master Malrubius the Green Man at least one of the unmasked cacogens Merryn (supposedly Severian's long-missing twin)

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:58:44 2015 No.5969313 >>5969226 >Agia/Agilus Close enough, not so sure I'd say they look twin-ish. Missing: Valeria the old Autarch Master Malrubius the Green Man at least one of the unmasked cacogens Merryn (supposedly Severian's long-missing twin)

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 15:59:55 2015 No.5969318 Alright I'm going to lunch. I'll work on those characters when I get back.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 16:00:47 2015 No.5969322 >>5944387 Oh my god YES do the rest of them in order, Long Sun, then Short Sun. I wish I'd never read them so I could read them for the first time again.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 16:06:07 2015 No.5969351 >>5969322 you're a bit late to the party, sport

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 16:45:10 2015 No.5969503 File: 1.59 MB, 2159x3312, Lance_Reddick_portrait_2009.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969313 this wasn't really how I pictured the green man, but add the teeth and he'd do a pretty good job

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 17:08:31 2015 No.5969633 >>5969503 He is too black to be green.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 22:40:28 2015 No.5971331 File: 145 KB, 720x405, 720x405-139042159_10.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5969172 I imagined him as the Psychiatrist from Twin Peaks.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 23:14:31 2015 No.5971442 >>5969226 >Typhon See: >>5944575

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 23:26:22 2015 No.5971469 HOGG FUCKING READ HOGG FOR CHRIST'S SAKE

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 8 23:33:34 2015 No.5971492 >>5971469 Hogg is nothing like the Book of the New Sun. Why would you even recommend it?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 9 00:05:36 2015 No.5971597 >>5971492 They are part of the homosexual agenda.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 9 00:36:46 2015 No.5971691 >>5971492 Because Hogg is so hot fuck i want to chew on hogg's turds im such a dirty cocksucker

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 9 18:06:36 2015 No.5973864 goodnight sweet prince

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/lit/ - Literature