/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5916845]

What does the based /lit/ board think of video games as an art form in it's current form and what it could evolve into?

[Anonymous No.5916875]

/lit/ doesn't know the first thing about art

[Anonymous No.5916885]

>>5916875
No one on 4chan knows anything about art

>except the art of shit posting

But anyway, I was hoping /lit/ would be more insightful than at least /v/

[Anonymous No.5916898]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_game

Some of these are good, like Antichamber.

Mostly though video games will not be an art form within our lifetime because they aren't interested in appealing to the niche that really appreciates art, they're more concerned with appealing to neckbeards who play repetitive games about violence and masculine fantasies.

[Anonymous No.5916908]

I just picked up Brothers off a Steam sale. Might start it soon.

Video Games have the same potential as any other art form. The problems:

1. Vast majority of people couldn't give a rat's ass about a good story being in their game/movie/book/etc. They just want something entertaining. What sets games even lower is that they don't require ANY story to be fun. A shitty movie has to at least make the bare minimum effort to keep the audience engaged, a shitty book, well, you've seen how well Twilight sells. If a video game has a good story, it'll be because the developers both wanted to actually put at least as much effort into the story as they put into the game, and are good enough to pull that off, which leads me to...

2. Video game developers can't write for shit. You have some AAA devs hiring their own writers, but these games have shitty, cliche story because they're looking to sell as many copies as possible, not set the art world on fire. Indie games have more promise, but indie devs can't be asked or can't afford to hire writers, and they generally aren't very good at it themselves. Even if they were, the biggest chunk of their time is going to be spent on working out game mechanics, graphics, etc.

3. So many developers and writers don't understand how to work together. Devs don't seem to get that the "cinematic" experience is best left for the cinema. Theatre is good at what it does, prose is good at what it does, cinema is good at what it does. Video games are none of these and people need to start playing to their strengths. There's little reason why game mechanics and story have to be on opposite sides of a wall. On top of it, I've read before that video game writers actually have to write the story after the game is mostly developed, meaning they have to write it AROUND the game, as opposed to the other way around, which would be better. Or even created in tandem.

[Anonymous No.5916909]

>>5916885
I think a lot of video games fall into the trap of a lot of genre fiction or blockbusters, basically having an interesting story but not really saying anything meaningful. Like I know GTA V was what kinda started the "are video games art" trend, but is the game really that meaningful. It has somewhat funny satire, but a lot is just surface level parody like modern Simpsons. Most video games are still just trying to get the player to have fun, either through mechanics to make them feel good about their skill or through escapism.

[Anonymous No.5917019]

Plebs.

[Anonymous No.5917039]

>>5916845
In my experience I consider very few video games art. Impossible to rule them all out of course. I don't have the connection with video games that I have with literature, music, or film. Most of the concepts introduced in a video game have already been shown to me in a more refined manner. The difference is that with a video game the point of reaching the artistic pinnacle appeals to entertainment value in a way I cannot get from other mediums. But like
>>5916909
A great lot of games do fall into the "genre fiction" trap. Though they're still very enjoyable.

[Anonymous No.5917053]

>>5916909
> GTA V started
you take that back!

[Anonymous No.5917082]

Video Games invariably give agency to the listener, invalidating them as a medium for anything 'artistic' (in the traditional sense that 'art' is the physical form of frission, rather than the modern sense that 'art' is just 'something I enjoy!')

[Anonymous No.5917143]

>>5917082
not necessarily. exploration games are a means of presenting the viewer with things more immersively

[Anonymous No.5917151]

I want to play Dwarf Fortress but I can pay no tutor

[Anonymous No.5917179]

God fuck off back to reddit.

It's faggots like you eager to call stale, gimicky, indie scene bait like Brothers artistic sooner than something like The Void or L' Arsene that are the reason outsiders will never consider video games art.

[Anonymous No.5917223]

I think videogames will reach its full potential as an art form when people take full advantage of its main characteristic, the interactivity. Games are in a full spectrum that goes from a movie to a pure timekiller/ability game, the first capable to convey a story and the later capable to achieve high degrees of freedom in terms of interactivity, but making interactions meaningful is what most games seem to struggle with and fail most of the time.

That doesn't mean games without a great story or a story at all can't be art, because if they cause a big reaction in me, whatever kind of reaction it is (like tension), they have achieved something for me, but of course, that depends on everyone's definition of art.

So if you are a /lit/izen who has never played a game, go play some of them with an open mind and you'll probably see that, albeit far from perfect, videogames can (or could) be as good as an artform as literature. Check games like Paper's Please, The Swapper, Botanicula and more.

[Anonymous No.5917233]

In general, videogames are not art. However, they have to potential to be. Examples of videogames that can be safely called art:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3gKyF5Muw8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJmtn6JP7Ug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IbPrk-yuts

[fagve No.5917234]

Fucking around with DOOM .wads is art.

[Anonymous No.5917418]

>>5916898
>>5916908
>>5917039
>>5917223
>>5917233

>Be me
>Be OP
>Be game dev feeling like the only one who realizes how surface level games are in both writing and interacvtivty but very few in the industry agree. "TLOU is our citizen Kane!"
>Be super happy I came to /lit/

Thanks guys <3

[Anonymous No.5917421]

>>5917233
>calling this slop art

[Anonymous No.5917422]

video games are art if im not using art as an honorific. if i am:

some video games are incredibly well designed and required incredible ability to make (smb3, mega man) but are not art, they are just really really cool toys

some try to be art but are just garbage (braid, dear esther)

[Anonymous No.5917433]

>>5916898
>Some of these are good, like Antichamber.
Antichamber isn't that good at all. It's a block puzzler with tacked on Escher geometry which doesn't feature into the puzzles at all, and then you have the retarded fortune cookies notes scattered all over the place which are almost embarrassing to read.

[Anonymous No.5917437]

>>5917179
God damn, the void was such a good game, and something I'm afraid to ever talk to people about - it's tough as nails and tries to meld its mechanics with its story in a really strange but compelling way. There's so much meat there, but it will invariably get relegated to being seen a one dimensional story about suicide because that's the only way people who play videogames look at anything. I'm straw manning, but the only time I tried to have a conversation about the game the guy I was talking with had such a shallow perspective on it it kind of got me sad.

Icepick lodge, and fringe indie devs in general, are going to be the people that usher in the age of games as an art form. If you want games as art OP, they do exist, you just have to look in the right places.

[Anonymous No.5917438]

When most people talk about the "art" in video games, they mean the story and specifically what "message" it has. So they're talking about something that could be better achieved in a movie or book.

Consider the idea that pixel art and chip music are elements of video game art.

[Anonymous No.5917442]

>>5917233
No
These are art
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGsnm2nOnso
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T6ZIWGfezo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAqZkTdpabk

That shit you posted ain't no art, it's not any sort of expression.

[Anonymous No.5917443]

>>5917418
Video games don't need good writing. Video games are an amalgamation of multiple mediums, like movies. Movies usually have shittier plots than books, worse soundtracks than albums, worse illustrations than painting(if we're talking about animated movies), but they have all of these combined and working together. Video games are like movies, but have an additional dimension, that of interactivity, so they're even MORE complex.

[Anonymous No.5917445]

>>5917443
A good movie has an excellent plot (if it has a plot), an excellent soundtrack, and excellent cinematography. Barry Lyndon is a good movie.

[Anonymous No.5917446]

veg can't be good art by means of story because that's seriously stricter by the fact that the player must in some way be able to move through it and advance (kill stuff, collect stuff, whatevs). Game mechanics and atmosphere can be borderline art imo. Stuff like minecrFt or osmos, the first pokemon editions, the first gta, world of Warcraft, etc etc.

You just can't measure it as art by comparing the story to a books story, just as you can't compare a painting to a piece of music (bad analogy but still).

If computer games have merit as art I'd say it's by how they stimulate you to interact with a virtual world. If there's depth and novelty and atmosphere to it, then that's in a way art.

[Anonymous No.5917448]

I'm pretty sure that nobody except the guy running culture.vg has any idea what they're talking about when it comes to video games

[Anonymous No.5917449]

>>5917446
>veg
Video games
>stricter
Restricted

[Anonymous No.5917451]

>>5917445
True, but the plot needs of a movie and a video game are vastly different. If you try to make a game plot the same way you make a movie plot you'll make metal gear solid four(ty hours of cutscenes)

[Anonymous No.5917452]

The core of a game and what separates games from every other medium is mechanics.

Can a set of mechanics be artful or is it merely craft?

I don't presume to answer this question.

[Anonymous No.5917453]

Video games are already art. Just you guys wait until my friend and I blow the lid off this topic with our analysis of Majora's Mask using Russian formalist literary theory

>yfw i'm totally serious

[Anonymous No.5917458]

>>5917438
there's no proper understanding in the dialogue surrounding videogames that, in order for a game to genuinely be considered art, it must take advantage of what makes it a unique medium for storytelling in the first place - mechanics need to be fully understood in this picture. If a game has a good story but totally unrelated mechanics (let's just imagine an example, tetris, in which every time you succeeded you got to read excerpts of Pale Fire) then it is, regardless of the story, a bad game. It is the proper synthesis of gameplay with story that makes a game artful, and, subsequently, meaningful.

[Anonymous No.5917462]

I think the problems with videogames and art are paractical issues rather than there being anything fundamentally wrong with the medium itself. Basically anyone can buy a canvas, some colors and make a painting. If you want to make a videogame however, it requires years of studying how to make a game in the first place, and requires even more time and resources to actually make the damn thing. Because of this videogames are usually collaborative efforts rather than a single person fullfilling his artistic vision. The enourmous ammount of time and resources that are required also mean that the developers need to actually make money back from their game, thus they are more inclined to make stuff that sells rather than make "art".

[Anonymous No.5917464]

>>5917453
where are you doing this? where can this be found?

[Anonymous No.5917466]

Yume Nikki is a game that doesn't have any dialogue, exposition or narrative in it. You move through the dream world however you choose and there's no explanation as to what any of it means. It would never work the same way as a movie or book. Even a movie that tried to be as faithful as possible would impose some kind of perspective on the viewer.

>>5917458
A game doesn't need to have a story in order to be art. Neither do paintings or musical compositions.

[Anonymous No.5917467]

In a videogame what matters is gameplay not story or even graphical design. Raw Schmup like Touhou or Cave games with barebone stories and relatively basic graphics (though danmaku patterns are often gorgeous) but great gameplay are art. When you start to master them you'll be able to reach "flow" and the sublime.

[Anonymous No.5917469]

>>5917451
That's entirely because video games are based around repetitive actions, generally sneaking around or killing people. Video games seldom involve emotional trials or self-struggle. If you made a movie like a game, well...they often do now, unfortunately, see The Hobbit.

An artistic video game with a plot would struggles other than treasure hunting, disarming a bomb, killing people, sneaking past the enemy, stealing a car, and shit like that. In a great film, if there is that sort of thing it takes a back seat and is not presented as "exciting" like in video games.

[Anonymous No.5917471]

>>5917462
All of what you said applies to movies and television too.

[Anonymous No.5917473]

>>5917471
that's why movies and tv are trash artistic mediums

film is the most overrated medium in the world because it's ridiculously easy to consume but also europeans produce it so it has cultural capital

[Anonymous No.5917474]

>>5917473
>that's why movies and tv are trash artistic mediums
They aren't, though.

[Anonymous No.5917475]

It's always been art.
Creating enjoyable game mechanics has always been a practice in pulling on emotional strings to have a good time, and game mechanics can and have been created with a deeper message that can be interpreted differently to lots of people.

It's not seen as art because it's not old enough and the Academic space is too focused on political correctness and injection of film tropes to try and force acceptance as art before the world is really ready.

[Anonymous No.5917476]

>>5917466
you're right, but the main point I was trying to make is that the greatest import is to be found in the mechanics and the relationship those mechanics have to some deliberate elements of the environment or world being created. Yume Nikki is an excellent example of that, and is often a game I cite when trying to have this discussion with people, I'm glad you brought it up. It does reinforce how games can effectively stand on their own by having an experience that couldn't really be emulated by other mediums, but that comes largely down to the way the primary mechanic (walking and observing) bring you closer to the other elements at play (in this case, the bizarre set pieces and surreal environments)

[Anonymous No.5917477]

>>5917471
There is very little artistic television. Aeon Flux was seriously artistic television, and as you can see it wasn't something long-running, and when they made a feature film of it, it was dumbed down shit.

[Anonymous No.5917483]

>>5917473
Films are easy to consume, good films like Barry Lyndon and The Passion of Joan of Arc, take a lot of effort to appreciate during eating, and also to digest.

[Anonymous No.5917492]

>>5917477
There's a lot of "artistic" anime shows of one sort or another, at least. And animation is itself an artform.

[Anonymous No.5917503]

>>5917492
Anime is not artistic. You can even compare the same animators who did the enormously expressive art for Aeon Flux, which is non-anime, to their work on Reign: The Conqueror (top), anime, which looks like deviant art shit in comparison.

[Anonymous No.5917511]

>>5917464
we are writing it now. we aim to make it about 40 pages. we will put it up online when done.

[Anonymous No.5917520]

>>5917511
Link to a website/social media thingy so we can know when it comes out?

[Anonymous No.5917523]

>>5917503
So you're basing your claim about the entirety of anime--thousands of shows and movies and other works--on the work of a handful of animators and the two shows they worked on? Animators aren't even the sole determining factor behind a show or movie's appearance.

Every time I think Internet anime experts can't get any worse, they always prove me wrong.

[Anonymous No.5917533]

>>5917523
You're free to post a pic where an anime character's expression is rendered particularly artistic, detailed, and hopefully in a unique capacity (since that's the only purpose for drawing cartoons other than realistically).

Anime generally relies on stock expressions, rather than rendering each expressing uniquely.

[Anonymous No.5917551]

>>5917533
The only purpose of animation is to draw facial expressions? What?

>Anime generally relies on stock expressions, rather than rendering each expressing uniquely.
"Stock expressions" are used mostly in comedies or for comedic purposes, and in a limited fashion.

[Anonymous No.5917552]

>>5917533
You see how unique the cycle of expression is here? That's actually taking advantage of the capacities of animation to render something that no other medium could.

[Anonymous No.5917556]

>>5917552
It's cool if you have some great interest in facial expressions, but animation exists for other reasons too. Try to draw a line between your subjective interests and objective reality.

[Anonymous No.5917571]

Relevant video on the subject.
http://youtu.be/AdU8bXbSQjE

[Anonymous No.5917574]

>>5917556
Art doesn't even exist "objectively", dumb ass.

Anime as a medium doesn't express very well, a gradeschooler with practice could draw anime as well as an adult. It's a very limited medium, it is defined by its lack of sophistication. If a face is too sophisticated, it couldn't be anime, it HAS to be simple.

[Anonymous No.5917581]

>>5917574
Although I'm by no means well versed in Anime I've always been staggered by the level of detail in the works of Makoto Shinkai and Satoshi Kon. The people still look like anime characters in anything other than close-up but the backgrounds, lighting and the framing are always things of beauty.

[Anonymous No.5917586]

>>5917574
what about the environments doe

[Anonymous No.5917589]

>>5917574
>a gradeschooler could animate as well as redline
>a gradeschooler could draw as well as vagabond

[Anonymous No.5917600]

>>5917581
That takes far less artistic talent, because it is nothing but being pretty. Flowers don't have to covey complex emotions on the part of the flowers through contorting itself in a very particular way. A flower is just a flower, it sits there. Now, no doubt, you can have fine landscape art, but in that case the standards are a lot, lot higher as far as static and nuance detail goes...if the work is to be considered especially praiseworthy, it has to look better that something someone would design mainly as a desktop. If it doesn't strive for high realism, then it must be striving for something else in particular and must have a reason for striving for it that high realism doesn't cover.

[Anonymous No.5917604]

>>5917589
Uh, yeah, if he practiced, he sure could.

[Anonymous No.5917610]

>>5917574
>Art doesn't even exist "objectively", dumb ass.
Animation is objectively about more than your fixation facial expressions.

>Anime as a medium doesn't express very well, a gradeschooler with practice could draw anime as well as an adult.
Ok, go round up some gradeschoolers with an interest in art and ask them to replicate these:
http://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/8714/animated-artist_unknown-fabric-hair-hyouka-running
http://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/4213/animated-artist_unknown-effects-kyoukai_no_kanata-
http://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/420/animated-background_animation-hidamari_sketch-hida
http://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/9735/animated-artist_unknown-fate-stay_night_unlimited_
http://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/4493/animated-debris-effects-fabric-fighting-liquid-sme
http://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/11298/animated-background_animation-debris-effects-explo

They won't be able to do it because it is insanely difficult to animate this stuff and even more difficult to do it fast enough to satisfy a weekly schedule if it's a TV show (only the last two are not from TV).

>It's a very limited medium, it is defined by its lack of sophistication.
You don't even know the first thing about it.

>If a face is too sophisticated, it couldn't be anime, it HAS to be simple.
No it doesn't. Pic related.

[Anonymous No.5917611]

The most /lit/ game is Fallout New Vegas
You literally need to understand Hegelian dialectics to comprehend the factions
Also, Ulysses

[Anonymous No.5917612]

>>5917574
a gradeschooler can draw whatever the fuck they want with enough practice, what's that mean. it's not like traditional animation is hard to draw frame by frame compared to how hard it is to paint a painting, it just takes forever

[Anonymous No.5917618]

>>5917604
I said animation, you child.
>but muh complex drawings
anyone who knows shit about animation knows that simplicity in design is best, because then you can focus on the FUCKING ANIMATION.

[Anonymous No.5917623]

>>5917612
Animation is far more than just drawing a lot of pictures and playing them back in sequence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvx7p6-lABw

[Anonymous No.5917626]

>>5917612
A gradeschooler, on the other hand, is not going to *conceive* of shifting expression nearly as well. Whereas if they conceive of a character feeling an emotion in anime, they'll portray that emotion as well as the average animator.

[Anonymous No.5917630]

>>5917610
Pic got lost someewhere.

[Anonymous No.5917637]

>>5917626
Again, feel free to round up some gradechoolers with an artistic bent and ask them to do something like the clips I posted.

[Anonymous No.5917644]

>>5917511
Tell me where, I don't come on here often enough so I'll probably miss it.

[Anonymous No.5917654]

>>5917630
I'm not seeing how that is a complex expression, dude. There aren't even any wrinkles in his face.

[Anonymous No.5917659]

>>5917654
You said faces in anime have to be simple, and that is not a simple face. If you want ultra-realism to satisfy your face fetish then go look at a live action movie.

[Anonymous No.5917663]

>>5917659
That is a fucking simple face.

I'm not looking for ultra realism, for Christ's sake. Sophistication in animation does not equate to realism, sophistication in any art form does not equate to realism. It just means conveying a lot of nuance.

[Anonymous No.5917679]

>>5917663
>That is a fucking simple face.
Ok Mr. Face Fetishist.

>I'm not looking for ultra realism, for Christ's sake. Sophistication in animation does not equate to realism, sophistication in any art form does not equate to realism. It just means conveying a lot of nuance.
Sophistication in animation does not equate to an obsession with faces to the exclusion of everything else.

[Anonymous No.5917690]

>>5917679
>Sophistication in animation does not equate to an obsession with faces to the exclusion of everything else.
Faces require much more talent than anything else, so of course they're the major criteria. Expressions are an integral part of character psychology, and creating character psychology is an an integral part of any medium with characters. For that you need to give the viewer a feeling they have to feel and examine, not something they just file away as "anger", "hurt", "happy", etc.

[Anonymous No.5917707]

>>5917690
>Faces require much more talent than anything else, so of course they're the major criteria.
Well of course a face fetishist would say such a thing.

>Expressions are an integral part of character psychology, and creating character psychology is an an integral part of any medium with characters. For that you need to give the viewer a feeling they have to feel and examine, not something they just file away as "anger", "hurt", "happy", etc.
Just because faces in anime don't meet your weirdly specific and fetishistic criteria doesn't mean they don't convey emotions properly.

[Anonymous No.5917719]

>>5917707
>Well of course a face fetishist would say such a thing.
Anyone with a brain would say such a thing, faces are constantly moving and tapping out messages in little itty bitty ways that rocks don't.

>Just because faces in anime don't meet your weirdly specific and fetishistic criteria doesn't mean they don't convey emotions properly.
They don't convey complex emotions, and since human beings are extraordinarily complex, they don't convey emotions properly.

[Anonymous No.5917745]

>people talking about anime like it didn't end with k-on!!

[Anonymous No.5917747]

>>5917719
>Anyone with a brain would say such a thing, faces are constantly moving and tapping out messages in little itty bitty ways that rocks don't.
This according to a person who is such an expert on animation that he thinks the clips in >>5917610 could be animated by gradeschoolers.

>They don't convey complex emotions, and since human beings are extraordinarily complex, they don't convey emotions properly.
This according to a person who doesn't know anything about anime and has a bizarre, abnormal obsession with faces.

I really like the way you can't even incidentally mention anime on 4chan without some sperg somewhere losing his shit.

[Anonymous No.5918308]

>video games can never be art, you have to run around and shoot things and get scores and that means it can't be art!

>anime can never be art, because every frame isn't drawn with the care of a single Picasso/Rembrandt/insertobscurepainterhere!

Jesus fuck. Don't talk about a medium if you know nothing about it. Art doesn't just mean the fucking art style. Anime can be art, it's an expression. It evokes emotions in the people who watch it, and not just hardons in weaboos as some people seem to think. If you think film or anime is trash, I dare you to actually get into the technical side of it. A proper screenplay, proper camera work, proper art, a lot of thought goes into this shit and if done right it'll manipulate the hell out of you and you won't even know how.

As far as video games, no, not every game requires you to shoot the bad guy, in fact there's been controversy over whether "walking simulators" like Gone Home even qualify as video games, or are just interactive museum tours. I'm personally on the fence about it, I earnestly believe that video games can do what movies did. Movies took sound, visual information, writing, acting, everything, and constructed it all together in an amazing way. Video games have one more element, interactivity. There is a way to add interactivity to the rest and construct a truly moving work of art that involves the player.

Someone above mentioned the Void, which I'm going to check out now.

[Anonymous No.5918333]

>>5918308
just because a lot of work is put into something doesn't make it art

[Anonymous No.5918341]

>>5916845
Fuck off SF hipster scum. Video games are art in the interaction, not in the story you fucking piece of shit. Video games have already moved from true unconcious genius to a capitalist model of disgusting medicority.

>inb4 indieshit
There was a time when the AAA titles were the objectively good ones.

[Anonymous No.5918346]

>>5917418
Instead of whining about muh writing, why don't you try to do good gameplay and symbolic visuals instead?

[Anonymous No.5918348]

>>5918333
He didn't say that something is art if a lot of work was put into it.

[Anonymous No.5918449]

>>5917574
>I've never drawn in my entire life and have no idea what I'm talking about.

Good to know, dick sucker.

[Anonymous No.5918463]

>>5918341
Not all games that aren't AAA are indie dipshit.

[Anonymous No.5918481]

>>5916845
I am actually really interested in Video Games as a storytelling medium.
I think it has some great potential, and there is a lot of room to experiment with new forms of storytelling.
Based on it's very nature, the player is an interactive part of a video game's story, who participates in the narrative.
I don't think there has ever been another storytelling medium where the reader or viewer is an active participant in the story itself.
Some games have already started to explore this new territory, such as recent Telltale series, Bioware Epics like Mass Effect and Dragon Age, Gone Home, Mountain, etc.
But I feel like they are just barely scraping the surface of the possibilities here. Sure, you can incorporate a handful of critical decisions and allow a variable to determine if the player gets the "good" or "bad" ending. That's not really very impressive.
What Telltale is doing with carrying decisions over throughout an entire game series though is pretty cool, but still very limiting.
It will be cool to see how this form of interactive storytelling evolves.

[Anonymous No.5918483]

>>5918333
I didn't mean a lot of work, I meant a lot of intelligent work. A good filmmaker can manipulate his audience's emotions without them even being aware of it. There's no reason that anime and video games, both of which, like film, are predominantly visual mediums, can't do the same.

Which is why they do. At least anime does, and video games certainly have the capability.

I really don't understand this argument against it. Do you really think you've seen everything that video games are capable of? They've been around for basically a little over 40 years.

Film really got started around 1900. I want you to ask a person in 1940 if they could even imagine what we do with movies today. Chances are, they wouldn't know what the fuck they were talking about. How can any of us know what the video game medium will even look like in another 40 years?

Well, they'll probably be laden with microtransactions and all other manner of shit, but you know what I'm trying to get at. These "indie" games that you're scoffing at, yeah, some of them are obviously just going for an aesthetic, and most are about as deep as Call of Duty. But they are trying. There are some good stories out there. How long before we encounter a great story? How long before we encounter a game with a great story that marries it in an intelligent way with great game mechanics and great visual and audio direction?

Maybe it already exists and I just haven't played it. I refuse to look at an entire medium and just write it off though. Hubris doesn't even begin to cover it.

[Anonymous No.5918502]

>>5918481
>Some games have already started to explore this new territory
Oh, you mean like Deus Ex, a 15 year old game?

[Anonymous No.5918510]

>>5918481
>Some games have already started to explore this new territory, such as recent Telltale series, Bioware Epics like Mass Effect and Dragon Age, Gone Home, Mountain, etc.
Uh... games have been exploring that particular territory since the 80s.

[Anonymous No.5918517]

>>5918483
In 75 years video games will probably have advanced so far that the other artforms are starting to be disregarded completely. I'm talking full immersion VR simulations that might even use emotional/memory manipulation to immerse you so hard you forget you even had a life before this.

[Anonymous No.5918518]

>>5918502
>implying the children who post on this board were even born by the time Deus Ex was released.
I was just trying to give some examples that the kids here could relate to.

[Anonymous No.5918541]

>>5918518
If you don't know Deus Ex you probably shouldn't be allowed to comment on video games online.

[Anonymous No.5918557]

>>5916845
The two games that always come to mind for me are Journey and Dark Souls.

Dark Souls deals with themes of the death of God, nihilism, will to power, and a lot of other Nietzschean ideas. The world is rather dark, and in order to beat the game, you need to gain a sense of self-control and self-mastery, understanding both yourself and the world around you. It's a game that hits hard and expects you to get back up. In this interaction with the game, you grow quite a bit. The story also is rather interesting, in that it is somewhat cyclical with the NG+ option, and also responds to your own actions, although in a sense it doesn't matter what you do, since you only are able to participate in a downward spiral.

Journey is in many ways even better, since the story is very much about you and your own actions. The MP interaction was incredibly meaningful, but even alone, the game shines as an incredible example of mechanics being meaningful in-and-of themselves. Absolutely play it if you get the chance. Very easy to beat, and takes only 2 hours.

As for other games, I've played a lot of average ones, but I think that the medium still just needs time to really develop itself into a full-blown artistic medium. We're getting there, and more excellent examples are coming through as time goes on, but it'll be a little while before I think games reach the level of film, nevermind literature and poetry.

[Anonymous No.5918567]

>>5916909
>GTA V was what kinda started the "are video games art" trend

[Anonymous No.5918572]

>>5916909
>I know GTA V was what kinda started the "are video games art" trend

This is the first time I'm hearing this. These threads were around long before GTA V was released. I've never even heard anyone attempt to equate GTA V with Art.

Personally I feel that GTA V falls well below the bar in both categories commonly called upon in attempt to describe video gaming as art. (1, As a story-telling medium, 2, as the pinnacle of gameplay mechanics)

[Anonymous No.5918573]

>>5918557
>Dark Souls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf7FFRKSoog

Shadow of the Colossus also comes to mind.

[Anonymous No.5918586]

>>5918557
http://culture.vg/reviews/in-depth/journey-2012-ps3.html

[Anonymous No.5918598]

>>5918557
Dark Souls is the best series I've ever played hands down

[Anonymous No.5918600]

playing a game for the story and not the gameplay is like reading a book for the plot instead of the prose

-t. /v/irgin

[Anonymous No.5918613]

>>5916909

baited hard, made me reply

i seriously hope that you are trolling, or you are actually retarded underage

[Anonymous No.5918670]

>>5918557
Why is it that story is always the most important thing and constantly talked about, but nobody ever cites pixel art and chip music as art (both unique to video games)? Or level/environmental design? To say nothing of the game design, but I guess it's difficult for people to imagine that as art because there's no precedent for it.

[Anonymous No.5918676]

video games actually have potential to surpass other artforms because of this thing called interactivity, once the medium evolves past making everything fun and cool, we'll see some art.

[Anonymous No.5918685]

>>5918670
i think environmental design is by far the most interesting thing about games. these virtual spaces and the way you explore and experience them is totally unique to games and there can be so much genius that goes into it

there's plenty of potential in the medium for storytelling, but when people talk about shadow of the colossus or dark souls what i really remember is the landscape.

i remember levels from half-life as vividly as actual places i visited as a child

[Anonymous No.5918693]

what happens when games become too real? what if playing COD was actually like being in a real war.

[que calor !trap0OylHY No.5918717]

>>5918670
>there is no precedent of drawing, music and architecture/landscaping
The only problem is that "are vidja art" is a dumb idea to start with, mediums aren't art and of course any human creation can have artistic value. If you want an indepth discussion you have to move away from basic and superficial topics and propose particular questions.
There are books about the artistic value of high class private parks and it was considered one of the highest forms of art in the early british modernity since it included and tamed nature, made early bourgeoise look sophisticated and worked wonders with Hume's idea of aesthetic disinterest. Anyone saying a certain medium inherently can't be art has no idea of art history.

[Anonymous No.5918728]

>>5918717
>there is no precedent of drawing, music and architecture/landscaping
I didn't say that anywhere. Why are you making thingsup? I said there's no precedent for game design to be considered art (since apparently this idea never occured to people before video games).

[que calor !trap0OylHY No.5918731]

>>5918717
>Hume's
Meant to write Kantian, I'm sorry.

[que calor !trap0OylHY No.5918763]

>>5918728
Sorry, I though I had it highlighted
>but nobody ever cites pixel art and chip music as art (both unique to video games)? Or level/environmental design?
Game design is also pretty analogue to regular game design.

Again, there's nothing to make games not art. Many games aren't, just like there are more walls painted than paintings. Many games could be analyzed like art and there would be too little to get from them, just like you could analyze some deviantart post with the same resources you dissect Goya but you won't find it as interesting as the later.

There's nothing stopping a discussion about particular games in academic terms, besides the fact that a big chunk of the people who like vidja like the interaction and not the understanding, and most academics being more interested and busy with other things in the first place.

Again, gardens were the maximum art form at a time. There's nothing stopping a video game.

[Anonymous No.5918767]

>>5918676
So you want them to make games that are boring and lame :^)? I think games might be slightly limited in what they're able to effectively portray. If you write a story about a frustrated virgin, you can be able to convey that frustration while still keeping the reader entertained and immersed. If you make a game where the player plays a frustated virgin, you're probably going to have to make the PLAYER frustrated(like making the goal to get pussy but having this goal be practically unreachable), but if the player becomes frustrated it's going to ruin his experience and more importantly, the immersion and cut him off from the game. The player must experience the right amount of challenge, not too much and not too little, if the game is unbeatable or boring you remember that you're actually just a nerd sitting in front of a screen and pressing buttons. Basically, you need to engage the player, and to do this it needs to be a good game, and good games are fun. Fun is not anathema to deep profound profoundity though.

[Anonymous No.5918776]

Games are art.

Not only art, but high art, and the highest art that will ever possibly exist.

And they are higher art than movies, books, music, and paintings because they are technologically superior, and thus more immersive.

Immersion is the #1 criteria for art, followed by complexity, then glorification

In terms of games, the better games are more complex, and thus more immersive (complex in terms of mechanics and aesthetics, not "narrative"), which is why OP's pic is a shit game that would've been laughed at in 1985.

[que calor !trap0OylHY No.5918778]

>>5918767
Well, you are getting way too caught up in the "game" aspect. You could have a 3D rendered artificial world with no particular game aspect, like second life if you remember that shit*. When you write a novel you don't set an objective for the reader to achieve, neither with a musical piece. You are rejecting the value of pure virtuality just because you feel there needs to be a playing function, I don't see it.


*Chris Marker, french director, loved it and used it as his main virtual interaction with people, more than e-mail.

[Anonymous No.5918793]

>>5918776
>immersion is my #1 criteria for art
ftfy

[Anonymous No.5918809]

>>5918776
>and the highest art that will ever possibly exist.
But Icycalms clone, wouldn't video games be inferior to neural link-simulations(having the dimension of sensation), and maybe brain-function-altering neural link simulations(having the ability to implant memories and skills and whatever) going by your set theory? The highest artform would be a type of game, but it is not video games. I realized that this isn't something that contradicts your post but he's been calling video games the ultimate art form before and I had been thinking about it.

[Anonymous No.5918815]

>>5918776
eh, i thought brothers had a pretty interesting mechanic with each hand controlling one of the dudes and then the sense of loss when one of them died
shit was immersive as fuck

[Anonymous No.5918824]

>>5918793

There is no other possible criteria.

It should be exceedingly obvious that immersion was the #1 criteria for the early visual arts, and then movies. So the only remaining issue are the "narrative" arts, primarily novels, since novel readers are the largest group of uneducated simpletons who pretend to understand art and think their novel reading has enriched them in any way (if you want to see what cramming your skull full of novels does to you, see Harold Bloom).

Even in narrative arts immersion is also important, but below the quality of the "narrative", or more specifically, the "message".

The narrative arts have held videogame developers in their sway for far too long. I mean look all the interviews where these poor people want to make a great "narrative" in their game -- when in fact they should hold narrative media in contempt, since every novel ever has had a retarded message.

>wouldn't video games be inferior to neural link-simulations(having the dimension of sensation), and maybe brain-function-altering neural link simulations(having the ability to implant memories and skills and whatever) going by your set theory

That's more or less what he's been going on about recently.

[Anonymous No.5918927]

>>5917473

>film is the most overrated medium in the world because it's ridiculously easy to consume but also europeans produce it so it has cultural capital

An unbearable opinion

[Anonymous No.5918931]

>>5918824
>That's more or less what he's been going on about recently.
Cool. By the way, Icycalm would probably be annoyed that you're stealing his writing style and wordings as if you were him.

[Anonymous No.5918932]

>>5918776
>Immersion is the #1 criteria for art, followed by complexity, then glorification

In that case, LSD is one of the greatest art forms.

>>5918824
>There is no other possible criteria.
Not for escapism work, no.

>It should be exceedingly obvious that immersion was the #1 criteria for the early visual arts, and then movies.
It should be exceedingly obvious that paint was the number one criteria in early paintings. That doesn't mean simply "having a lot of pain" makes something a decent painting.

[que calor !trap0OylHY No.5918939]

>>5918824
>It should be exceedingly obvious that immersion was the #1 criteria for the early visual arts, and then movies.
And you're basing this on every writer at the time putting it as a secondary effect at best?

[Anonymous No.5918956]

>>5918932
>In that case, LSD is one of the greatest art forms.
LSD is not an art form, drugs are an art form and Albert Hoffman is a master.

[Anonymous No.5919498]

>>5917442
>Transistor
>not art

You wouldn't recognize artistic merit if it raped you in the face.

[Anonymous No.5919566]

>>5917418
I'm in the same boat. Maybe we should collab; make some based game.

[Anonymous No.5919588]

>>5918517
Then people get together in the simulation and develop their own simulation.

Inb4 we're already in the simulation

[Anonymous No.5919604]

>>5919588
What if our universe is a simulation running on a simulation inside a simulation in our universe?

[Anonymous No.5919638]

>>5919604
What if our universe is a simulation running on a simulation on the servers of 4chan. What if all these threads are contributing to the simulation.

[Anonymous No.5919715]

People who think games are, or can be art should be shot

in the dick

with a nailgun

repeatedly

[Anonymous No.5919747]

>>5919566
>>5917418
If you guys wanted to get this conversation going elsewhere, I'd be down - I'm of a similar mind and I'm looking for like minded devs.

[Anonymous No.5919775]

It will evolve into some sort of meta religion, for some. As sense leaves our consumerist lives, the void in our guts, will demand a sense of purpose, and a sense of belonging most of people has lost.

The values of the old times, will return, dripping from pixel blood. A brotherhood, like man has never known before, will emerge from the ashes of a decadent civilization.

We will build our values in the battlefield, and communicate it to each other, in the digital agora, in times of peace. The dreams we created, will jump from the screen, and their symbols will carve our skins.

Science and technology, will be an inevitable outcome of a more intellectualized society. The leaps will be huge, time will no longer be a barrier, and some, will travel to distant places in the time/space continuum, to fulfill the legends of the old.

We will realize then, we are all of those legends, and we will understand in the move our history. Contact, will be then made, if it doesn't come even earlier. And past, will leave it's place for the future, and this world, for others.

And it will all start, with the closest thing we do as children: by playing.

[Anonymous No.5919776]

>>5917442
Ugh, no - these games are works using "art" as their main draw, but what that translates into is poorly fleshed out gameplay mechanics and needlessly obtuse stories to try and make the shallow game seem as though it has more depth than it truly does. Please, don't parade these games out as art, that perspective promotes a similarly vapid and surface level appreciation of "art" as "games." It's just not good to do.

I think you might be trolling, very honestly, if only because the anon you've disagreed with posted significantly better titles that are better both as games and pieces that could be respected as art.

[Anonymous No.5919785]

>>5916845
they aren't art
they almost always operate on functions which appeal to the lowest common denominator
they are built on violence with nothing meaningful to say about violence
storylines are almost always totally boring
white male validation of masculinity crisis

fuck video games

[Anonymous No.5919799]

>>5917452

>Can a set of mechanics be artful or is it merely craft?

Renaissance has demolished the barriers between the arts, and craft.

[Anonymous No.5919806]

>>5916845
Infantile as an art form, like slapstick was to film. They're being treated as much as a novelty as an art form by most people (and as a result, most of the industry), yet they've been showing their potential to be taken seriously for something like two decades now.

[My name is not important No.5919811]

>>5919799

Those barriers where never present. Everything man does, is a craft, and then that craft becomes mastery, it becomes an art in the move.

Also, in the classical sense of the term, everything man produces, is art.
No wonder, the word "artisan", has "art" in it.

[My name is not important No.5919816]

>>5919811
>then
when

[Anonymous No.5919820]

>>5919811
>where
were

[Anonymous No.5919826]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV1u8FMsb5I
Vidyas artistic ability comes from its unique characteristic of interaction with the player, which it's already peaked in. However games do need better writing, not for artistic credibility but because most games have shit writing

[Anonymous No.5919834]

>>5919806

>potential

I'll keep hearing this about video games until the day I die. We're no closer to games achieving it than we were in the days of the NES, things just look prettier now.

[Anonymous No.5919867]

>>5918670
Dark Souls had a pretty good world-design, in that it was all deeply interconnected. Took a while to figure out, but once you understand how the world 'works' you're amazed.

[Anonymous No.5919879]

>>5918573
Love SotC. Also really love ICO, possibly even more, but they're both phenomenal. Not holding my breath for The Last Guardian, but it would be nice. I'm glad some of the former studio members are moving on with a new project. I'm excited.

[Anonymous No.5919881]

>>5919834
I disagree. There are artful games, they just get no fucking attention from the games media at large. Kentucky Route Zero, The Void, Dark Souls, and even something like SMT 4 are all excellent examples of games that achieve what could be considered some state of art through the use of their mechanics in relationship to their narratives. They're out there, but the people with big voices in videogames aren't looking hard enough, and likely don't even truly understand how to look, as this video suggests >>5919826

[Anonymous No.5919892]

>>5919834
Games like "No Mans Sky" and "Elite Dangerous" have taken the medium in a new step foreword. Imagine how far games could go, given the constant increase in technology. Heck, if quantum computers are operational within our lifetimes then the potential is almost limitless

[Anonymous No.5919898]

>>5918586
Wow. It's one thing to personally dislike the game, but to just go all-out on needless cynicism? At least Yahtzee's funny.

[Anonymous No.5919910]

>>5919747
Let's do this….I'm not sure how though

[Anonymous No.5919954]

>>5918586
This website is absolute garbage - intense vitriol veiled as biting criticism? It's hilarious nonsense. If that isn't obvious from this review, let me point you to "THE ORGY OF THE WILL, a philosophical treatise put forward by the creator of that site.
http://orgyofthewill.net/
one of my favorite lines is 488, where he speaks on the inherent evil to be found in the arabs.
Also, a line that speaks to Alex Kierkegaard's foolishness, is line 255.
" On philosophy being an emergent property of the sciences. Neither Wittgenstein nor the scientists can grasp this. They cannot even grasp the concept of emergence, after all, how could they hope to grasp this?"

Don't support this website, don't support this kind of commentary, it's hateful, extraordinarily biased towards the "core" gaming demographic, and hilariously sophomoric despite its purported attention to detail and proper tone.

[dorf.king No.5919992]

>>5919910
post a skype or something, let's get the conversation started

[Anonymous No.5920016]

>>5919898
He's right though. Most "art games" fundamentally misunderstand what video games are about and are boring, insipid, pretentious trash.

[Anonymous No.5920018]

>>5916909
>Like I know GTA V was what kinda started the "are video games art" trend

[H.Q.S.S.G No.5920052]

video games are not art.
video games are art in the same sense that triple-A movies are art; they take advantage of a medium that could possibly be designed and created as art but are abused and used as a foundation for appealing to the widest audience possible on order to make as much profit as possible or simply to entertain.

[Anonymous No.5920060]

>>5920052

Icepick Lodge.

[Anonymous No.5920070]

>>5920052
>he doesn't know about indie games

[H.Q.S.S.G No.5920077]

>>5920060
>>5920070
see
>>5920016

[dorf.king No.5920091]

>>5920016
No, unfortunately, he's only partly right. While the simplicity of the game mechanics at face value is absolutely nothing to be lauded, it is the context in which those mechanics are presented that make the game what it is. While they are simple and pose no challenge that cause deaths, they offer a certain freedom that develops over time, and that freedom is something that is shared with your unnamed partner. When the game poses threats, it's not to your characters mortality, but to that mobility which has been built up the entire game, making the loss leave that much more of an impact, since that (and the other person) are all you have. Sharing that loss with a stranger is surprisingly emotional. It's a quick game, shows little to no pretense whatsoever (as the "backstory" can very obviously be gleaned from the tablets with small painted vignettes on them) and stands to offer a short, sweet game that shows how a player's relationship with their game partners and their settings can affect an emotional response. The simplicity of the mechanics allows for that observation to be abundantly clear, and while I think, honestly, dark souls deals with these themes in a more compelling way, because the game is considered difficult people who don't typically play games won't have access to the potential beauty games have to offer.

[Anonymous No.5920094]

>>5920077
>he doesn't know that indie games is not synonymous with art games

[H.Q.S.S.G No.5920103]

>>5920094
>people make indie games for a purpose other than money or entertainment
do you have a learning disability or can you just not read

[Anonymous No.5920111]

> Is it currently art?

By my definition no, but I don't play enough indie games to know what experimental things around out there.

> What it could evolve into

It has potential, but its largest detractor is how much money is required to create one. A great musician/painter/etc can create thousands of works before claiming to be a master, but even long-running studios (in this case, let's say Valve) pump out perhaps one game/year, if that. You could argue for studios with faster outputs (phone games, etc), but I think we could all agree those aren't aiming for any higher artistic ideal. There's also the issue of it being a collaborative effort, which leads to some issues regarding the intent of the art. Is it the lead designer? Lead developer? Even if they could all come to a conclusion, would that be as good as an individual effort? As the saying goes, a camel is just a horse by committee. I believe there could be examples that we can collectively point to and agree "This is art", but that point is a long ways away in my opinion.

[dorf.king No.5920116]

>>5919910
post a skype id or something, or open an iirc

[Anonymous No.5920129]

>>5919910
post a skype id, or open an iirc

[Anonymous No.5920145]

>>5920103
Tripfag, you're making no sense.

[Anonymous No.5920169]

>>5919954
>i liked jurrney and now I'm sad that he was mean :'(
the writer of that website knows more about vidya than anyone in this retarded thread

[Anonymous No.5920175]

>>5920145
Protip: filter every single trip or namefag you come across

[Anonymous No.5920211]

>>5920169
I posed an argument that at least tried to rationalize the design decisions behind the game, and the ways that I found them to be effective. The creator of that website (IE you, very likely) is a close minded ass hat who prefers to be "right" consistently instead of trying to discuss games in a meaningful way. Case in point, you just tried to argue with me with what, exactly? An out of touch greentext that tried (ineffectually) to summarize my points about journey? It's entry level, I said that, it's easy, I said that, but it's effective.
Allow me the freedom to be you, right here: the only argument that page offers is "it isn't difficult enough, I don't like the setting, I don't like whatever 'art shit' it's trying to pull (which is hilariously enough never actually approached in the article), I don't like the game. PS, I don't like anything."

Again, and this should be obvious by now, but you're an idiot for supporting that guy and his heinous website. He's wrong so often, when he's right it doesn't even come close to mattering.

[Anonymous No.5920230]

>>5920211
if you read his work, even just on indie games, you should be able to write a similar journey review before even reading his

sorry that he didn't cater to your nonexistent attention span

[Anonymous No.5920233]

>>5916845
>What does the based /lit/ board think of video games as an art form
very limited. few games hold up any artistic merit. suda51 does a good job, and the new silent hill looks amazing. that being said, its all subjective. thats it

[Anonymous No.5920249]

>>5920230
see
>>5919954
you're a pleb

[Anonymous No.5920285]

>>5920249
show me better writings on video games, protip you can't because there is none

your butthurt moralistic moaning over some racist thing or something that he said is just pathetic, even less the fact that you're as fucking stupid to think that he said ANYTHING about any "inherent evil"

i don't even have to fucking think you're so retardedly dumb that you destroy yourself

go onanize yourself over some half-baked pretentious garage game

[Anonymous No.5920349]

>>5920285
>show me better writings on video games, protip you can't because there is none
Should we accept garbage because it's all we've got?
I actually think it's important to realize where this guy and his thoughts are correct (he's certainly critical of mechanics in a lot of key ways, which I do think a lot of games critics fail to be) and also where he's woefully inadequate (which I find comes largely down to his clear misunderstanding of mechanics within a context, as I said, and thus a misunderstanding of an aesthetic being approached) your one note rebuttal, humorously, only speaks further to the close minded stance you keep promoting, and shows full well that the one destroying themselves here is actually you. I'd typically say try harder at this point, but it's clear that that's doing you no good.

[Anonymous No.5920389]

Tetris is art

[Anonymous No.5920441]

what happened to the 3 faggots who wanted to work together, I want in.

[Anonymous No.5920448]

>>5920441
no one posted any contact info
post some contact info
I'm at skype at dorf.king

[Anonymous No.5920458]

>>5920448
I don't even have a skype, I'd probably be shit anyway but I feel like I could write a good story and I feel like there's a market for games with a good combination of story and gameplay. Hope one of the other guys see that and will actually be usefull, good luck.

[Anonymous No.5920463]

>>5920458
learn to code, make a compelling text adventure. I have faith in you.

[Anonymous No.5920476]

>>5920463
It's late where I am, but maybe I'll make a skype tomorrow and add you, I wouldn't hold you breath if I was you I'm pretty shy at this stuff