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/lit/ - Literature

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5900793 No.5900793 [Reply] [Original]

Why is the level of discourse so much lower in America than in Europe and the UK?

I'm not saying Europe doesn't put out vapid shit. But I know french and can obviously watch british stuff and there is so much more obviously more intelligent stuff in terms of serious news and debate and television and the books that are available. Fuck walk into any carrefour and you can pick up the latest Houellebecq novel. Walk into Wal-Mart and all there is shit.

What went wrong America?

>> No.5900848
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5900848

Asimov in pic related pretty much nailed it directly.

In America, it is in the culture that everyone's feelings and opinions are 'valid', which I guess stems from the egalitarian beginnings of the nation. People think being born equal means we have to kowtow to retards once they're 15, 20, 30, 35 years past being born.

>> No.5900870

>>5900793
Full Capitalist-Imperialism and its propaganda-education machine.

>> No.5900897

>>5900870
>>5900848
This shit reads like satire.

>> No.5900901

>>5900793

Shitty education system and a desire for independence so fierce that many refuse to listen to anyone who they don't already agree with.

>> No.5900904

Population of Western Europe is like 400mil, US+Canada isabout 350. Of that 350, maybe 68% are white (not counting 'Hispanic Whites', of course) and asian. The vast bulk of the remaining 32% (almost entirely blacks and hispanics) are quite frankly dead weight in terms of education, intelligence, productivity, etc. That drags the nation down horribly.

The US has much higher poverty and much less economic diversity or potential than Europe, obviously especially within that 32% but even within large sections of the white population (white trash). The US has some of the lowest class fluidity in the entire world, practically at dystopian, 'low third world' levels compared to social democratic / state socialist countries in Western Europe. There is like zero penetration into the elite strata, which remain a plutocratic element. Intellectual discourse is very heavy there but the rest of the country is basically a heap of proles.

tldr; US got saddled with retarded minority populations, and went oligarchic/plutocratic much more harshly than similar processes of prole-ification in Europe because of impediments to meritocracy and class fluidity (mostly education being very expensive, exclusive compared to Europe). Mass culture follows suit and produces tranquilizing media for a nation of violent angr retards and barely educated frustrated poor masses. Same thing happens in Europe (for example, oi u wot m8 middle class 'culture'), but it's easier for people to escape it there because of state socialism, more specialist economies, and less embedded plutocrats.

>> No.5901068

Why is the level of obsession so much higher in Europe and the UK than America?

>> No.5901075

>>5901068
Um. What?

I'm an American who's lived in Europe, and the US pretty much corners the market on obsession.

>> No.5901084

>>5901068
Why is the UK not considered part of Europe now ? This they secede from the Schengen Space ? Did they declare themselves a part of the Republic of China ? I don't get it.

>> No.5901090

>>5900870
This is the correct answer. Other answers either stem from this or are incorrect.

>> No.5901094

>>5901084
Because it's not continental, speaks English (connection to North America/Australia/NZ), and many Brits reject the "European" label and don't like the EU

Not saying it's a universal consideration, but it's a view that's persistent both within the UK and outside of it

>> No.5901096

>>5901084
There's definitely a divide between the continentals and the Anglos regarding certain things.

>> No.5901118
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5901118

>Expecting a nation founded by capitalists, plebs, and protestants to be a nation worth living in

Art is divided on class lines and America/Canada has been largely created by the lower class. There's no art fetishism here.

I mean in France it's not like people are that much better read, but the teachers make a point of dropping lots of names and trying to be trendy which creates a rich cultural web for discourse to take part in, while in Canada we've just got minimalist social realism shit. We need to start teaching people to be pretentious and self conscious and make poverty a source of shame rather than pride.

>> No.5901128

>>5901118
Please do not lump the artistic histories of Canada and America together. America was a 20th century literary powerhouse. Canada has...?

Alice Munro is actually pretty good though

>> No.5901129

>>5901118
>minimalist social realism
right in the CBC

Bruhh, in Canada the shudras are wayyy too strong for that.

>> No.5901134

>>5901128
W-we also have Margaret Atwood

But it's unfair to compare the US and Canada
Canada has 1/10th the population, and only began breaking away from British culture in the last half-century. Basically we don't have a national identity/coherent culture to base a literary tradition off
I feel like (hope) it will change as this generation comes of age

>> No.5901146

>>5901134
>muh population
Yeah nah, US has a huge population of illiterate minorities, so 360 million potential writers is a huge misrepresentation of them

Does Canada have any good writers from when they were still under Britain?

>> No.5901155

>>5901134
>I hope we get a national identity/coherent culture when this generation comes of age

fucking end yourself, wishmaster. You are no different than a spoiled child that wants hot dogs or kittens, if you saw how either of those things were made, you would shut the fuck up. The same thing with national identity. Get bent.

>> No.5901157

>>5901155
>>>/india/

>> No.5901159

>>5900793
You're seriously going to compare Walmart to Europe and UK? Why the fuck are you shopping for books at Walmart? No one shops for books there.

>> No.5901161

>>5901096
And there's a definite divide between the French and the Germans, or the Czechs and the Poles, or any of those nations and the EU as a whole. The idea of the UK not being European holds about as much water as the idea of Japan not being Asian because they disagree with the Chinese and Koreans.

>> No.5901162

>>5901155
I don't think there is a single country today that is not struggling with national identity. Name one. I'm legitimately curious

>> No.5901173

>>5901161
No, I mean the anglosphere is divided from the EU, but together within themselves for obvious reasons like cultural similarities. Continental Europe also has it's own set of similarities (think philosophy for example. )

>> No.5901192

>>5901162
You have to understand that our modern concept of country is quite new in historical terms. Italy has less than 200 years. Humanity has some centuries before we see if the idea of nation is working or not.

>> No.5901202
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5901202

>>5901128
>who is Jean-Louis Lebris de Kérouac?

>>5901134
>Margaret Atwood
Yuck. My biggest dislike of canadian literature is how god damn preachy it seems. No unified sense of pride or accomplishment, just a thousand individual fragments bitching.

>I feel like (hope) it will change as this generation comes of age
I doubt it. Maybe Quebec will break off and forge an identity, and maybe the west coast will follow in their example, but unless something drastic like that happens I can't imagine Canada ever being a "real" nation.

>>5901155
>Not wanting a national identity
Get a load of this bourgeois liberal. Besides, where I live it's just miserable ethnic enclaves that don't really interact with each other with a growing class divide to make it worse. National identity would give us a narrative to actually move towards some form of unity instead of what we have now.

>> No.5901203

>>5901146

fuck off with your blaming minorities for the US having a shit-level discourse. guess what: it's actually our glut of ignorant and loudmouthed whites who keep the discourse down. yourself included.

>> No.5901209

>>5901173
I'm not sure that's a valid comparison. With the exception of the US, the anglosphere wasn't any more than remote outposts of the UK proper (and its norms and values) until the early 20th century. Continental Europe was separated into culturally distinct regions centuries before that.

>> No.5901215
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5901215

>>5901203
You're a fucking moron because you immediately assume I'm white and that I'm referring to race. I meant the droves of poverty in the US. If you think poverty and the potential to be a writer aren't correlated you're fucking retarded. It just so happens that the US' poverty is found in rural white, blacks and hispanics.

Goddamn, why are leftists so quick to make assumptions? It's like the circuits in your brain have been rewired to make immediate assumptions when you see certain words.

>> No.5901220

>>5900793
my day today discourse, the people I meet, and the friends I keep are not like you describe. why not watch the Smithsonian Channel or PBS.

I personally blame urban and celebrity culture dominating the media, but most of middle America is disgusted by that lifestyle.

>> No.5901222

>people confusing cuckoldry with discourse

>> No.5901227

>>5900904
I like the cut of your jib

>> No.5901232

>>5901203
He's right though. Of course, whether the minorities are dead weight due to their race is an entirely different can of worms, but you can't deny that they are intellectual dead weight. Hell, my own political party is basically using their ignorance to hold the country's white population hostage.

>> No.5901236

>>5901203
Urban and rural white culture is inherently anti intellectual. It should be pointed out that many europeans I know have felt very much at ease in boston and lower manhattan

>> No.5901242

>>5901202
>calling me a bourgeois liberal in the same paragraph that you declare your complete ignorance of Carl Schmitt.

Just digging yourself in deeper. National identity is only possible through suffering and genocide. The ends and means of "unity" are inacceptable morally and rationally respectfully. The fact that you said ethnic enclaves need to be destroyed is telling. National identity does not exist without murderous hatred and war. The narrative of which you speak is a aggregate irrationalist fiction that categorically excludes what would be detrimental to national identity.

>> No.5901253

>>5901209
>With the exception of the US, the anglosphere wasn't any more than remote outposts of the UK proper (and its norms and values) until the early 20th century.
That's my point, all of the Anglo countries are culturally similar and share a history which converges at a certain point. I'm not trying to imply that the countries of continental Europe are similar to one another, only that the anglo countries are similar. This isn't to say that the continental countries don't have certain ways in which they are grouped (like I said, continental vs analytic philosophy, etc).

>> No.5901254

>>5901236
>Urban and rural white culture is inherently anti intellectual
What?

>> No.5901256

>>5900793

Our ancestors were high testosterone alpha male settlers.

Current NA are high testosterone anti-intellectual feel-faggots.

North American culture places very low value on intellectualism and more on stupid shit like being loud and obnoxious.

>> No.5901258

>>5901242
You should read the kingdom of God is within you by Tolstoy. he is not a big fan of nationalism either

>> No.5901261

America has always been anti-intellectual

>> No.5901266

>>5901261
When continental 'assemblages' count as intellectual, can you blame Americans?

>> No.5901270

>>5901254
Urban culture and poor rural white. Smart kids are bullied and tortured, smart black kids are called oreos, sports are all that maters, girls just want to pick up a man and get knocked up etc.

Affluent white yuppy culture is academically competitive and kids are taught to strive for excellence. There is a huge divide due to economic segregation

>> No.5901275

>>5901261
Totally untrue, read the American scholar by Emerson. the American upper class has always been aggressively academic.

>> No.5901276

>>5901270
I didn't really have that experience and I'm not affluent (public schooling, which does segregate according to merit in urban areas) but I can see where you're coming from.

>> No.5901278

>>5900904
This.

>> No.5901284

>>5900904

this

white and asian america considered as separate entities are pretty much world class in every category

black and hispanic america on the other hand are practically third world

>> No.5901292

>>5901276
I'm not /pol/ these are generalizations. even the shittiest school system has a valedictorian. that said America has a huge demographic problem. what I find really interesting is that Democrats are so pro immigration yet the Hispanic immigrants that are pouring into the country are mostly conservative Catholics that do not subscribe to liberal ideals of education and personal freedom

>> No.5901299

>>5901284
I'm willing to bet that Asian Americans as a standalone demographic are probably top worldwide in academic achievement specifically in the sciences

>> No.5901301

America was fine before the 20th century. Frankfurt school and its cultural marxism is what has dragged it down to the current level.

lel at all the retards ITT trying to blame American problems on capitalism. Captialism is the reason we had a country and cultural inheritance to squander in the first place.

three things stand out to me:

government response to the great depression

the creation of a welfare state

and

the assassination of JFK

>> No.5901302

>>5901292
>mostly conservative Catholics that do not subscribe to liberal ideals of education and personal freedom
True, but I guess the idea is that overall they will tend to (1) vote for their own; minority candidates or (2) vote for greater public expenditure when it is in their favor.

>> No.5901305

>>5901301
A perfectly valid position being stated in the wrong place.

>> No.5901308

>>5901292
Yes, but political opportunism is a fairly short sighted game and the Democrats control the Hispanic vote by bribing them with certain laws (or lack of laws). The next generation won't be as Catholic, but will still have the specter of their parents' Democrat affiliations hanging over their head, so that's another pool of voters. At least for now.

>> No.5901314

>>5901301
Poverty and anti intellectualism go hand in hand. Its the way it has always been.

>> No.5901324

>>5901305
Not at all. The kid clearly has had his opinions shaped by 4chan and understands little to nothing of what he's talking about.

Welfare state and cultural marxism are buzzwords that don't mean anything, and I'm not entirely sure how JFK factors into this at all. Now, if he had provided any specifics whatsoever I might be inclined to listen to what he has to say

>> No.5901329

>>5901215
Leftists think poverty = race issues because its convenient for them to forget the hordes of dirtpoor rural whites exist because they vote for the other side, which of course pushes them towards th other side.

>> No.5901334

>>5901324
>shaped by 4chan
Evidently, but as opposed to what? Shaped by various comedy programs and appeals to spooks like the majority? I don't know if you're wrong to dismiss him, but you'd also have to dismiss a shitload of people.

>> No.5901338

>>5901324
>Welfare state and cultural marxism are buzzwords that don't mean anything
Welfare state not, cultural marxsm can be but if you've talked about these things enough you should have an idea what is meant by this. This board has a very hard time accepting the speaker's given definition of these terms (hence the weekly 'Why do right-wingers always blame the Frankfurt school?' thread).

>> No.5901349

>>5901338
I still don't think cultural Marxism has anything to do with the level of discourse in America. if anything egalitarianism, even forced egalitarianism should open society and allow a greater depth of discussion. I don't subscribe to /pol/s thoughts on sjws, since I have only ever seen it exists on tumblr screenshots and the Facebook pages of fat girls who delude themselves and get no likes

>> No.5901352

>>5901334
>but you'd also have to dismiss a shitload of people
Yeah, I do. The only way to shape your opinions these days is to read every single "legitimate" news publication out there and figure out the truth that lies somewhere between all the bullshit.

>>5901338
Welfare state refers to any government that has expanded its influence beyond simple protection and taxation. The amount of successful countries that do not classify as "welfare states" can be counted on one hand. It's a meaningless pejorative term.

I've never heard the term cultural marxism outside the internet and, seeing the way it's used, I'm not even sure the people using it know specifically what it means.

>> No.5901355

>>5901349
>sjws
One of the few cases where /pol/ is right. They're all over undergraduate courses, at least here in California.

>> No.5901359

>>5901349
Taken a humanities course, ever?

>> No.5901367

>>5901355
>>5901359
I graduated from college in 2004,

>> No.5901371

>>5901352

that's because you're 15 years old. the term itself has been around since the 90s.

By welfare state I denote any state in which a government subsidized program of wealth re-distribution takes place on a large scale, generally with the aim of reducing economic inequality.

Of course welfare has historically had the opposite effect, but that's another issue altogether.

>> No.5901376

>>5901367
Then you might have dodged it.

>> No.5901385

>>5901371
But don't most European states, esp very well educated ideal states like Finland and Iceland have w massive welfare apparatus?

>> No.5901388

>>5901371
>that's because you're 15 years old
Sorry. 22. Guess I don't watch enough of whoever uses that term. Nice guess though.

>wealth re-distribution takes place on a large scale
So, you mean, literally any country that funnels taxes into public services? Could you perhaps give me an example of what country is not a welfare state? Or provide examples of things the US uniquely does that make is qualify as a welfare state? It sounds to me like you have a very crude idea of how government and economics work.

>> No.5901390

>>5901385
When you use terms like 'ideal' and '[successful non-welfare states] counted on one hand' you discredit yourself.

>> No.5901401

>>5901367
Well you avoided it then. I thought it was a tumblr only thing too, but I've heard some surreal fucking shit in these classes (which were completely urelated).

Not to mention literally every girl under the age of 22 seems to post about that shit on social media, it's getting mainstream.

>> No.5901406

>>5901388
I'm not him but I believe the point he is trying to make is that a welfare state/system gives individuals an incentive to perform poorly. Poorer performing school get more money, unemployment is more beneficial than part-time employment/low wages, etc. It seems to promote lower performance (anti-intellectualism). Maybe he is making a different point though.

>> No.5901416

>>5901406
>Poorer performing school get more money
That's the complete opposite of true you fucking idiot

>unemployment is more beneficial than part-time employment/low wages
That's also blatantly untrue

Jesus christ why do I even waste my time on this board. You kids don't even have a tenuous grasp on reality.

>> No.5901422

>>5901388

'Public service' and wealth re-distribution are two COMPLETELY different things.

The latter allows government to directly manipulate the distribution of capitol among its citizens. This is fundamentally at odds with the concept of free market capitalism.

Brazil and Argentina would be examples of non-welfare states.

During the peak of British power (during the time of Queen Victoria) government spending was equal to 10 percent of the GDP. Today it is 50 percent.

Wealth redistribution is not magic. It is expensive, ineffective and wasteful. We have to pay for this waste in the form of bureaucracy. Likewise in Britain. In a welfare state, the government inevitably becomes larger and more capable of meddling in private affairs. There are many complications that result from this meddling.

>> No.5901449

>>5901422
>Argentina
>Not a welfare state
JESUS CHRIST. You have literally no fucking idea what you're talking about! Argentina is probably the MOST Socialist state in the western hemisphere, aside from perhaps Venezuela. Out of all the countries you could have chosen, you chose the one with 30% of its population below the poverty line and a notorious reputation for nationalizing foreign industries? And through all of that you failed to give a single example of how the US actually redistributes wealth outside of public services!

Fucking christ. I'm so done. You guys have absolutely no fucking idea at all. About anything. And yet you still are convinced of your own opinions.

Like, do you even watch the news? Or get all your information off of 4chan? I just... oh man. Literally facepalming right now

>> No.5901452

>>5901416
>That's the complete opposite of true you fucking idiot
It actually depends on what city in the US you live in because most public education systems get the majority of their funding through the city budget. These schools don't necessarily get money FOR performing poorly but the overlap between things like Title 1 and performance means that they do get more money.

>That's also blatantly untrue
I worked a low level public sector seasonal job where most people, outside this season, were collecting unemployment. When the best of them were asked to stay part-time afterward they all declined because it was not worth the effort compared to the money they would be able to collect without it.

If you haven't experienced this then you probably don't know enough about it to respond.

>> No.5901454

>>5901449
/Reddit

>> No.5901465

>>5901452
>get the majority of their funding
And if not get, then certainly distribute their funds through the city budgets.

>> No.5901491

>>5901270

you seem to be blaming the uneducated poor, who, by the way, aren't even allowed to participate in our national discourse for the prevasive strain of anti-intellectualism? no, the fault lies at the feet of those who are actually in control of, and engaged in the discourse, namely: white people. it is their constant paranoia, and hatred and suspicion of minorities and outsiders that lowers our discourse to the level of a stupid self-congratulatory "american exceptionalism" echo chamber. blaming the populations that suffer the most for this toxic idea is ignorant and really shows which side of the equation you're on.

tl;dr american exceptionalism breeds anti-intellectualism and anti-critical thought. american exceptionalism is a white invention.

>> No.5901497
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5901497

>>5901491
u trolled, me good

>> No.5901501

>>5901452
Title 1 grants of No Child Left Behind scale with poverty, not with quality of school. And that's just federal funding; the majority of public school funding comes from the state and local level, both of which allocate funds based on standardized-test based merit. In other words: richer and higher performing schools get more money.

And nice anecdote. The monthly allotment of food stamps in California (the most welfare of the welfare states) amounts to a value of 30 dollars per week per person. In what way is that more "worth" than working part time?

>> No.5901505

ITT: you cannot have a political discussion on /lit/ without it being dominated by inexperienced 20-something year-old conservative reactionaries.

>> No.5901508
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5901508

Here is how we can improve America in a few easy steps:

1. Abolish the welfare system and all its components. Replace it with a negative income tax and cap the positive income tax, say at 25 %.

2. Repeal the Minimum Wage Act and impose restrictions on trade unions.

3. Repeal the Controlled Substances Act. Abolish FDA, DEA and ATF

4. Impose term limits on American senators.

5. Abolish the Federal Reserve.

6. Get rid of rent control.

That's a good start.

>> No.5901509

>>5901215

you literally wrote "poor minorites"

if you just meant "poor people" then you would have written that. but you didn't, now did you? don't even bother to deflect.

>> No.5901511

>>5901509

there are poor minorities (hispanic-americans) and there are affluent minorities (Japanese-Americans)

I don't see what the problem is

>> No.5901515

>>5900904
gb2p

>> No.5901518

>>5901511

he wrote that the fault lies at the feet of illiterate "poor minorites." one doesn't have to be a genius to decode what he meant.

his response that he just meant poor people in general is fucking amazing.

>> No.5901519

>>5901508
this, except the exact opposite

>> No.5901521

>>5901518
>>5901509
I actually anticipated the first response. Minorities can be non-racial (women and the poor) etc. That's why I include poor, rural whites as "minorities" in that description. And the idea that certain races aren't currently a deadweight due to their relative levels of poverty is nonsense.

>> No.5901522

>>5901521
women in countries like China*

>> No.5901524

>>5901521

walking back that dog whistle, huh?

>> No.5901530

>>5901521

your placing the blame on the people who suffer the most from our nation being idiots is just..willfully ignorant. you might want to look at the interests at the top of the heap who set the terms of the discourse. the people at the bottom have no control.

>> No.5901531

>>5901524
Do you have an argument or just indirect shit to hide behind?

>> No.5901532

>>5901422
Brazil is very much so a welfare state, and it has been working somewhat well, and I really hope they keep pushing it that way.

Also, no, it doesn't go against free market capitalism, it goes against a very radical, predatory form of free market capitalism.

If anything, the government managing to get MORE money circulating in the country will get people buying stuff - and damn, they are, sadly. Traffic has becoming more and more difficult every year since 2003

>> No.5901534

>>5901521

>women
>minority

women are probably the only true MAJORITY in America

>> No.5901536

>>5901146
>mfw you don't want a welfare state but Kennedy's death was one of the things that caused our "downfall."

Cultural Marxism is a myth. Does cultural Marxism exist in the ghettoes of Detroit or in the peasant fields where immigrant workers labor? Does "cultural Marxism" exist for gays who are STILL discriminated against, thrown in the streets by religious parents, shot dead, assaulted or bullied to the point of suicide? Forget what Hollywood tells you. This is the real world, without the smoke and mirrors of the new standard of social liberalism.

Cultural Marxism doesn't exist outside of white urban, upper middle class circles of political correctness to distract away from their position as oppressors.

>"look at how open-minded I am" is a bourgeois liberal's way of getting you to look away at the millions that they exploit.

Don't cry out "cultural Marxism" every time the oppressed chewed up gum of the world finally gets a bit of time at the top. No real modern-day Marxist even follows the Frankfurt School. There is no cultural Marxism. Not for the ones that need it.

>> No.5901537

>>5901531

your argument is basically "our illiterate poor blacks and immigrants make us stupid" which completely sidesteps the possibility that the fact that we have such a large uneducated population is a CONSEQUENCE of the low discourse, not the cause of it.

and i'm not crazy to suspect racist motives, either.

>> No.5901539

>>5901532

>getting people to buy stuff
>by taking money out of their hands and giving it to people who can only afford the necessities

see the problem here Pablo?

>> No.5901543

>>5901539
>more people can participate in the economy
>the economy grows

see how it works, john wayne?

>> No.5901545

>>5901534
who cares of old and ugly ones
women means pretty young women
they are an oppressed minority

>> No.5901549

>>5901539

Pablo is a spanish name, friendo, we speak portuguese, the name you're looking for is Paulo :^)

And I'm not sure if you know how old money in third world countries work, but thanks to A AWFUL LOT of interventionist policies and propaganda (first from the UK, then from the US, who obviously are ok with intervention in OTHER governments), there is a ingrained desire - necessity, even - to actually own imported products (because they're obviously better), which means not only poor people can't buy shit, but the rich people who do will buy it overseas.

The narrative of the "absolute free market" is OK to the US only until you realize how much the US has actively went out their way to actually destroy / prevent other free markets.

>> No.5901550

>>5901537
I wasn't trying to say anything concretely political, only that a large amount of our population consists in these groups which are currently poverty ridden, which means that it's expected that we have lower test scores, average IQ etc. Basically they're what certain white groups used to be. Whether it's their fault or not is not something I have no opinion about., and the fact that you see so much ideology in my posts says more about the associations which you have in your head.

>hurr racist
Well I'm a minority, but even if I weren't I find people who tack shit like that onto the end of an argument to be dishonest.

>> No.5901551

>>5901539
you get pennies on the dollar taken our of your paychecks. and you get pennies on the dollar charged extra when you buy stuff. stop bitching.

if you don't like the principal of taxation, then you don't like the principals of civilization. go buy your own island and leave us the fuck alone.

>> No.5901555

>>5901301
>mfw you don't want a welfare state but Kennedy's death was one of the things that caused our "downfall."

Cultural Marxism is a myth. Does cultural Marxism exist in the ghettoes of Detroit or in the peasant fields where immigrant workers labor? Does "cultural Marxism" exist for gays who are STILL discriminated against, thrown in the streets by religious parents, shot dead, assaulted or bullied to the point of suicide? Forget what Hollywood tells you. This is the real world, without the smoke and mirrors of the new standard of social liberalism.

Cultural Marxism doesn't exist outside of white urban, upper middle class circles of political correctness to distract away from their position as oppressors.

>"look at how open-minded I am" is a bourgeois liberal's way of getting you to look away at the millions that they exploit.

Don't cry out "cultural Marxism" every time the oppressed chewed up gum of the world finally gets a bit of time at the top. No real modern-day Marxist even follows the Frankfurt School. There is no cultural Marxism. Not for the ones that need it.

>> No.5901556

>>5901536
>Does cultural Marxism exist in the ghettoes of Detroit

What created these ghettos? The riots of the 1960s, no doubt. They were a direct product of cultural marxism in the form of a Civil Rights Movement. You have to know that the Civil Rights Act had heavy (heavy) Jewish support. It wasn't until the Black Panthers came out in defense of Palestine that Jewish support was withdrawn from the movement.

>in the peasant fields where immigrant workers labor?

And how many of them are here illegally? How can you say a transition of values isn't taking place when, rather than forcing them to learn English, we make every accommodation to allow them to live and work here without speaking the language.

>Does "cultural Marxism" exist for gays who are STILL discriminated against

Homosexuality has been demonized since the rise of Abrahamic religion. That's a very old story and one that's hardly confined to America or the West. It is only very recently (past 70 years) that attitudes have begun to change.

>> No.5901559

>>5901551

>pennies on the dollar
>40 percent of my income seized by the government every year
>I am giving the fruits of nearly half my labor to someone else

you're the one who belongs on an island. Communism and socialism are much more appropriate to tribal life than any form of capitalism.

>> No.5901561

>>5901556
The riots of the 60s were a REACTION to the existence of said ghettos

So, the US pretty much drains every economy in Latin America and gets very angry when the people whose countries they screwed over one way or another try to find work in a country that was essentially build by illegal immigrants?

I honestly don't care about faggots though, i'm sorry

>> No.5901566

>>5901561

>we hate this ghetto
>so let's destroy it, set shit on fire, and drive away all the white business in the area, depriving the municipality of precious tax dollars and condemning our children to even worse poverty than what we're protesting

dindu logic

>> No.5901567

>>5901561
That still doesn't mean these people have right to the country.

>> No.5901568

>>5901550

do you know what "national discourse" means? it has nothing to do with testing metrics. wtf are you on about.

here's a recent example of the national discourse: the question police brutality and our response to that question. how have we been speaking about it? who do we allow to speak about it? what arguments are made? what arguments are dismissed? who dominates the discourse? is it the status quo? is it the underclass? what positions do our largest media outlets take? etc etc. that is discourse.

>what is it called when a minority internalizes the oppressive politics of the majority.

your posts are dripping with ideology, but you've internalized it so deeply you've conflated it with objective observation.

>> No.5901575

>>5901568
Jesus christ this is all I'm saying you raging faggot
>poor countries have lower academic stats on average
>US has more poverty in Europe
>It's reasonable to assume that this is why the US has lower academic stats
>Also, certain minorities are disproportionately poor
That's fucking all.

>> No.5901578
File: 31 KB, 400x300, 238-0121152645-COINTELPRO.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5901578

>>5901566
>BPP sets a bunch of free social programs on completely ignored areas
>The FBI and the CIA infiltrate it and fuck it up every way they can
>people get mad

LOL DEM NEGROES THEY CRAZY

>> No.5901580

>>5901566

you fundamentally don't understand the psychology of an oppressed population. either because you have no direct experience with it or you're just unable to empathize.

oppressed populations have no real recourse to express their frustrations. the best analogy i ever heard was from Ice-T on some tv show. he said it was like when you're a kid and you get really angry and you break your toys. the reason why you break your toys is because you literally cannot do anything about the situation: you can't stop your parents, you can't run away and join another family, so your frustration bubbles up as a destructive impulse. this impulse is not at all exclusive to the american underclass. every oppressed population in history has rioted in their own neighborhoods.

>> No.5901582

>>5901575

so you are completely deflecting from the entire premise of this thread. you have nothing to contribute, then.

>> No.5901584

>>5901501
Half of what you wrote is already exactly what I've already stated. Five billion dollars is allocated scaled on need in NYC (1/5th the total annual budget). Keep acting like this is trivial. It's funny how you try to deflect the poverty connection to certain grants and entitlements yet happily denote 'richer and higher performing schools'; which aren't really even 'rich' in the grand scheme of things (the richest aren't going to public school unless the public school is specialized in some way).

The anecdote communicates more than the half-baked cheap example of 'monthly allotments' that you're using. Your abstractions really can never get you in the minds of people in this situation. In New York you can receive 400 dollars a week, 6 months at a time. Combined with Section 8 housing and city programs that give many of these individuals low-supervision easy job the other 6 months of the year, yeah I can see how some people could get used to that kind of lifestyle. 30 dollars of food stamps cannot keep you alive but if you know how to work the system you can find the worth in denying a part-time or minimum wage job (which with daily transportation costs, processing fees, etc. wont seem worth it).

>> No.5901587

>>5901556
>What created these ghettos? The riots of the 1960s, no doubt

No. Why would blacks riot if they were well off financially and socially accepted? There were ghettoes then and there are ghettoes now because of the capitalistic system (which inherently causes a concentration of capital), not because of the riots. The riots were caused by oppression, oppression didn't come about because of senseless riots. There was a historical context to those riots.

Wage slavery is not ok, even if they are better off here than where they are from.

Abraham lived in the pre-capitalist era of tribalism and feudalism. It was far worse than capitalism and the homophobic, sexist, racist, backwards ethics is a result of these material conditions.

>> No.5901590
File: 139 KB, 424x470, 1409196539170.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5901590

>>5901582
No, I'm answering the fucking OP question why am I still replying to you and so quickly too jesus christ

more poverty=lower academic skill on average=lower discourse on average

>> No.5901591

>>5901575

care to explain what education of the lower classes has to do with a nation's discourse.

...do you even know who sets the terms of the discourse? like, is that even a concept that you understand?

>> No.5901597

>>5901580
>you literally cannot do anything about the situation
That's something everyone experiences though.

>> No.5901598

>>5901591
How can you believe this? Politicians have to make more appeals to the lower classes, especially when those classes take up a high percentage of the population like in America.

OP obviously doesn't mean academic discourse.

>> No.5901601

>>5901590
see:
>>5901591

you haven't drawn a connection between education of the masses and the discourse. (hint: there is no connection, the masses are hardly allowed to participate in the discourse; they do not control it or contribute to it meaningfully unless there is a large-scale social movement to change its terms)

>> No.5901603

>>5901567
defend your right to it, then we'll see if anyone else deserves it. Why do you?

>> No.5901605

>>5901598

no, politicians set the TERMS for the lower class. you're mistaking placating and pandering with actual influence.

they could, if they wanted, speak to us and treat us like adults. but that isn't in their best interest, so their move is to treat us like children, set the expectations low, and then follow up on those diminished expectations.

>> No.5901606

>>5901603
Why does your skepticism stop there? Why don't I have a right to Nigeria right now? (unless you honestly believe this???)

>>5901601
see>>5901598
Discourse has to be relatable to the people classes, at least a little bit

>> No.5901612

>>5901580

>Ice-T
>intellectual authority

destroying your own property is about the stupidest thing a person could do. It is, as you put it, the height of childish folly.

As professor Sowell would ask:

Where are you going to shop after you've burned down all these businesses?

And I never heard of any Japanese rioting in American when they were being oppressed and discriminated against circa WWII. They continued to build their lives, work hard, and rise above the oppression.

Most tellingly, they did it without political and social hucksters telling them what they should feel, think and do. Today the black community is overrunning with rabble-rousers and mendacious demagogues.

>> No.5901613

>>5901601

the only time the underclass is able to enter or change the discourse is when it holds massive, prolonged demonstrations. otherwise the directives come from the top and we have to wait for them to come around on issues; whether that means congress making laws, or the supreme court handing down decisions. either way there is a fundamental disconnect between that work and the participation of the population.

>> No.5901614

>>5901612
>They continued to build their lives, work hard, and rise above the oppression.

rofl

>> No.5901616

>>5901584

Add to it the fact that if you do apply for some form of employment, most of these benefits are discontinued immediately since you become ineligible to receive them. If subsequently you then lose that job for whatever reason, you have to reapply for these subsidies, with a significant amount of time elapsing in the application process during which you effectively have no source of income whatever.

This is why a negative income tax is clearly superior.

>> No.5901619

>>5901605
Why are you expecting your perceived self-worth to be uplifted or even verified by politicians? They will treat you as you allow yourself to be treated. And when 'placating and pandering' cause large scale redistribution of wealth, those people who are having their hard earned money taken from them really don't care what you term it or what distinction between it and 'actual influence' you're trying to make because that money is being happily accepted, yet the appetite for it, insatiable.

>> No.5901625

>>5901612

of course it's unreasonable, you fucking idiot but as i've already stated, it's the only method of expression. and has been for centuries in ever country. you honestly think riots never solved anything, do you? true, they never directly solve an issue, but it is one of the FEW mechanisms people have to alter the national discourse by calling attention to issues or problems.

and i never said ice-t was an intellectual authority. he simply made a good analogy. keep working that deflection muscle, though.

>> No.5901626

>>5901606
we don't live in a void. Things have context, they have a background, they have a history. You have a right to become a Nigerian citizen if you want, if that answers your question.

>> No.5901630

>>5901587

Detroit, Harlem and Chicago are far worse from an economic standpoint today than they were in the 1960s. The riots causes a mass exodus of businesses and stores from the ghettos, leaving little else besides ghetto equivalents in their place. The loss of employment, coupled with the loss of local tax revenues due to stagnant commerce, is what has bankrupted places like Detroit.

>> No.5901633

>>5901626
But do I have a right to the future of the country? Would it be just of me to go there along with millions of my countrymen and replace the current population?

>> No.5901634

>>5901625
>it's the only method of expression
I think he refuted that when he mentioned how Asian communities tend to 'express' using the method of achieving.

>> No.5901638

>>5901634

false equivalency (the racist's favorite fallacy). asian american communities are not and have never been saddled with the same issues that befall blacks and hispanics in america. they've never had cause to riot because they've literally been treated better than other immigrants.

>inb4 japanese internment camps

>> No.5901639

>>5901630
>it was just the riots

>> No.5901647

>>5901638
Diminishing the struggles of other populations and communities isn't going to get you anywhere.

You're definitely a special snowflake but it's not for the reasons you think it is.

>> No.5901652

>>5901638
This doesn't change the fact that blacks now are in a better position than Asians were decades ago. Yet they haven't risen above it due to the perpetuation of hurr why don't things go my why when I'm uneducated? Must be the system!

Had the black population applied themselves they would be in a position of greater power than they currently are, and would have more respect and a better quality of life on average to boot.

You keep hiding behind "the circumstances," but what isn't a product of the circumstances? It sounds meaningless.

>> No.5901655

>>5901638

>thrown into concentration camps just for being Japanese
>somehow this equate to having been 'treated better' than other minorities

top lel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment

read something for a change

>> No.5901657

>>5901454
Wow, that convinced me. I bet he also wears a hat, lol.

>> No.5901658

>>5901639

>the riots had no effect whatever

>> No.5901659

>>5901652
had white people stopped discriminating against them they'd be in a better position too

SHRUG

>> No.5901661

>>5901647

who is diminishing the struggles? it's outright stupid to compare the experiences of generations of asian-americans with blacks? why? i'll tell you why

first of all, asians did not endure the traumas, legacies and residual effects of slavery and jim crow, they did not endure decades of racist housing policies. and that's just for starters.

to compare the two groups as somehow being equal is diminishing: that is, it diminishes the historic and ongoing and heretofore unmatched struggles of black americans. but that's just par for the course.

>> No.5901662

>>5901659
And had Hitler not had certain experiences he would never have perpetuated his travesties. Yet, just like the riots, there is no excuse for his actions.

>> No.5901663

>>5901630
outsourcing, overproduction and unemployment as well. These are the symptoms of capitalism. All these things were "predicted" more than a century ago. Rioting wasn't random though. People rioted for something--the conditions that they existed in were inhumane. It wasn't beneficial for them in the long-run because this was a simple riot, not a revolution. A riot is an expression of frustration and inescapable suffering without a clear class consciousness to interpret this suffering into objective systematic errors that can be solved.

If they had been more organized and if the Black Panther Party had not been infiltrated, we could have gotten closer to revolutionary socialism in the U.S as soon as the end of the 21st century. That was in the best-case scenario. It didn't happen. Now, it will take us far longer. It isn't over.

>> No.5901664

>>5901655
Not to mentioned, American public opinion at the time of Pearl Harbor was somewhat along the lines of 'the Japanese are incapable of pulling off an attack like this on their own; the Germans had to have orchestrated it'. This was so pervasive that eye-witness accounts mention German planes and pilots. So yes, not only were they interned but they were wrongfully discredited intellectually.

>> No.5901665

>>5901655
>internment camps for 4 years
>worse than slavery

>> No.5901669

>>5901659
Aren't you missing the point? The Asians did it with discrimination, but the blacks, no with little discrimination, still haven't pulled themselves together. There's no point in pointing finger and you certainly can't justify evil or stupidity thereby.

>> No.5901671

>>5901665

not only was it short-lived, it was just ONE east asian nationality that suffered, not the entire race indiscriminately. i'm not making light of their suffering, but i'm pointing out that internment and slavery are incomparable.

>> No.5901672

>>5901665

>something that ended 160 years ago
>relevant at all today

>>5901659

discrimination that blacks face today is certainly much less than it was 40 years ago, but blacks are on the whole worse of economically than they were back then

discrimination doesn't account for much these days. government intervention is what's to blame

>> No.5901674

>>5901661
I never thought of it that way. What do you propose we do about this?

>> No.5901675
File: 68 KB, 450x200, racist_computers.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5901675

>>5901652

>> No.5901677

>>5901662
>perpetuated

lol

>no excuse

the hell are you talking about? high school racist please

>> No.5901679

>>5901672
>>something that ended 160 years ago
>>relevant at all today

it's as relevant as something that happened 70 years ago lmao

wrong time to bring that response out

>> No.5901681

>>5901672
>government intervention is what's to blame

yeah i wonder what that intervention was based on

>> No.5901682

>>5901679
Except the Asians were already better off than the blacks mere decades after the fact. So either both of them are irrelevant, or else the black population has a problem within itself.

>> No.5901684

>>5901677
Why does this read like those "black humor" posts on facebook?

>> No.5901685

>>5901674

first of all we can start by not looking at all black people as potential criminals. we stop looking at black people as a monolith (for example, when a black man commits a heinous crime, the discourse tends to center around the "problem in the black community," which is to say that his actions represent the whole; whereas when a white person commits a heinous crime the discourse centers around that individual, and the contextual causes of his or her actions. usually the conversation starts about mental health--white people as a whole are not held responsible [as they shouldn't]) after we've given them their individuality back, then we can start the long healing process of dismantling the shadow systems that keep them oppressed. housing discrimination, for one.

i'm not a lawmaker.

>> No.5901686

>>5901682
they were better off before the fact as well

>> No.5901687

>>5901679

>slavery ended 160 years ago
>blacks still mired in poverty

>japanese internment ended 70 years ago
>japanese americans earn 30% higher salaries than the nation average

seems like the dindus need to get their act together

>> No.5901688

>>5901633
if you were now a citizen of Nigeria, you would have the right other citizens would have to control how a country is run. If millions came in at once, Nigeria might want to consider a sensible immigration policy that can accommodate all its new citizens and all the natives.

If Nigeria had bought your great-grandfather as a slave and the only reason you were Nigerian to begin with was because of this fact, it would definitely change things. Nigeria would be your new home but it would be a home you would not feel welcome in. The natives still see you as a foreigner, even if you and your parents have spent a lifetime in Nigeria and no other land.

>> No.5901689

>>5901687

seems like those two things aren't at all alike.

>> No.5901691

>>5901677
esl here, what's wrong with perpetuated the way he used it?

>> No.5901693

>>5901685
My advice to you, aim high and achieve a decent level of success. Any public opinion will change one man at a time.

>> No.5901695

>>5901664
>>5901689
They're alike experiences in that outside of internment Asian populations were viewed in much the same way, until they proved those opinions wrong.

>> No.5901696

>>5901687
slavery lasted longer than 4 years m80

>> No.5901697

>>5901696
Yes, but you still haven't proven the extent of the effects, so your argument is useless.

>> No.5901698

>>5901685

the obverse of that is we can't give credit the entire black race when one member of it does something good or noteworthy. it's patronizing as fuck and diminishes the accomplishments of individuals

>> No.5901699

>>5901693

ok? and there are thousands upon thousands of high achieving black men and women today. jesus, our president is a high achieving black man. i mean, he literally has achieved the highest office in the nation. yet that's not enough. you should wonder why that's the case.

>> No.5901705

>>5901685
>we
Who is this? The first thing "we" need to do is stop looking at nonblacks as one group. Give us our individuality back.

>> No.5901706

>>5901691
'perpetuate' is more like 'continue'

it makes it seem like hitler would have started committing his atrocities but then discontinued it at some point if his experiences has been different

"sorry guys"

>> No.5901708

>>5901698
see:
>>5901699

you'll notice that no one helt the black race in higher esteem for obama. he was and is seen as an abberation. such is true for most successful blacks. they the "good ones."

it is NOT universalized.

>> No.5901709

>>5901697
i'm not the one who brought up japanese internment like it was comparable lol

>> No.5901713

>>5901705
>stop looking at nonblacks as one group. Give us our

...........................

>> No.5901714

>>5901706
Isn't that the point of the post? The guy pretty much wrote that verbatim.

>> No.5901715

>>5901699
It probably has to do with proportions and the people one interacts with on a daily basis. High achievers tend to be respected so long as you don't mix titles with achievements.

>> No.5901717

>>5901713
The same thing could have been written in reply to the first post.

>> No.5901720

>>5901708
Because their success rate is much lower so it is unusual, you're going in circles

>> No.5901721

>>5901416
Do you know what tenuous means, m8?

>> No.5901723

>>5901715

this is a lame excuse. so at what proportion will it be acceptable? tell me, what is the proportion of indian americans that are successful? we don't treat them the same way we treat blacks. is there a threshold?

you keep making excuses for treating blacks like shit, and it's pathetic. anything to spare you the psychic stress of recognizing racism

>> No.5901724

>>5901723
>tell me, what is the proportion of indian americans that are successful?
Much higher than that of blacks, though we don't even have a decent sample size.

>> No.5901726

It's absolutely frustrating that poor people abhor reading. I get it: you're poor, but maybe if you stopped watching NFL/NBA all day, read a book, and applied yourself, then maybe your life would be less shitty.

>> No.5901728

http://rt.com/news/217243-black-man-ferguson-police/

another dindu down in Fergushit

top kek

>> No.5901732

>>5901723
The nice thing about this is that I don't get to decide what proportion is acceptable. That has to change in the hearts and minds of people interacting with the black community. The threshold is for each individual to determine for their own opinion but I imagine it would have to be most.

>> No.5901733

>>5901726

or hey maybe it's because poor people have greater stressors in their life and reading is seen as an activity that requires active attention, their stores of which are often already depleted on other daily tasks and concerns, and is only really affordable to those who have the leisure time and space to do so. but you know, to come to that conclusion would require thinking for more than sixty seconds. maybe you should read more.

>> No.5901735

>>5901726
my life improved when i discovered the nba

>> No.5901737

>>5901732

you're suggesting that there is a proportion. it's implicit in your position. so tell me, what is it? is it when it's equal to whites? you know that they're not going to be able to achieve those rates in the current system right? so your thesis is self-defeating. if you want to preserve the status quo, just say so.

and i agree that direct experience makes all the difference, but sadly because we live in a racial segregated society, that rarely happens to any meaningful degree.

>> No.5901738

"we'll start looking at black people as the same way we do white people when they start doing better in our unfair system'

the takeaway from this thread.

>> No.5901740

>>5900897
Just because it reads like satire doesn't mean it's any less true, it's just more depressing.

>> No.5901742

>>5901738

>Implying there is such thing as a fair system

>> No.5901748

>>5901737
I said proportions, plural. Everyone has their own feelings on the matter. There is no one standard that will make everyone think the exact same way about the black community. Many whites, east asians, hispanics, indians, etc. may already feel the way you want them to with the current proportion of success/failure. In my personal estimation, I don't think I'll have that level of respect (on average) until the victim complex stops being so prevalent.

>> No.5901750

It's largely subjective, but this is my feeling:

Americans generally are discussing more openly with more confidence. It's very comforting and fun to talk to them as a European, because you are allowed to talk freely and more confident about lots of things.

This is the effect of Freedom. Here in Europe we are used to authority and superiority, we assume by nature that our own opinions are not perfect and that there is always somebody around who has more knowledge, more intelligence etc. -- sometimes wrongly so.

>> No.5901755

This thread reminds me of the time I was in Germany on exchange and some German bitch was talking to an uninterested black exchange student about hip-hop. At one point, without any self awareness, she said "I love nigger music," and none of the Euros in the room understood why it was a bad thing. I don't even mean that in the 4chan sense, where people try to pass it off or create complicated excuses for the use of the word, they flat out were too stupid to figure out what happened.

Another time, in a lecture, the Professor said a word that sounded like 'nigger' but was not, and all the other students kept on as if nothing happened while all 4 of us American students looked up and gave each other humored looks to confirm what just happened.

While the US has a massive Race problem, I feel like more Americans are aware of these sorts of things, or at least have more experience with them, than their European counterparts. Or maybe this just applies to the student population.

>> No.5901758

>>5901755

that's fucked. it reminds me of when i was at a bar in new york with some classmates after class and a black female friend was talking to two random australian guys who were hitting on her. one asked her where she was from and he said she grew up in harlem. so the guy goes "oh, so you're a crack baby." he could not understand why what he said was wrong. she was...not pleased.

amazing ignorance.

>> No.5901761

>>5901755
Or maybe esls aren't as familiar with anglo culture

>> No.5901762

>>5901758

he wasn't trying to make a joke or anything. it was like..he honestly just thought people in harlem were all crack babies and it was not at all an insulting or racist suggestion.

>> No.5901763

>>5901758
>>5901755
>can't handle the bantz

>> No.5901764

>>5900793
Murricah took the "we are the Romans" meme too seriously. Romans before taking over the greeks were anti-intellectual.

>> No.5901766

>>5901755
>While the US has a massive Race problem, I feel like more Americans are aware of these sorts of things, or at least have more experience with them, than their European counterparts.
Probably true but in America there is a willful neglect in this regard. Actually, we may even admit that 'we're as racially aware as any other nation is, if not more so' but this makes it all the more dangerous because the attention is directed away from conscious feelings and towards the subconscious, micro-aggressions, pre-determinations, etc. It becomes a situation of not simply 'you don't even know what you think' but eventually, 'we know what you're truly thinking better than you do', to which there is really no end in sight.

>> No.5901768

>>5901766
>>5901762
>>5901758
>>5901755
>people like this exist

>> No.5901772

>>5901766

it's some serious allegory of the cave shit.

>> No.5901773

>>5901173
Continental philosophy is a category that is applied by anglophones to distibct themselves from a certain typeof hegelian thought. It isn't any sort of coherrent shool that all European-UK feel that they belong to.

>> No.5901776

>>5901508
King of the retards

>> No.5901780

>>5901301
>cultural marxism
This is how you detect a retard.

>> No.5901792

Americans don't give a shit about Europeans, the only discourse was helping the UK from becoming extinct by zee wee wee Germans during WW2!!!

>> No.5901800

Europeans take pride in their mediocrity.
Americans take pride in their exceptionality, whatever that might be to them.

Europe is much more a place of teamplayers, while America radicalized the individualist strain of western civilization.

>> No.5901818

>>5901800
>Europeans take pride in their mediocrity.

Care to explain?
I've never noticed this

>> No.5901829

>>5901776

Nice argument buddy. I really liked the part where you used blatant ad hom to drive your point home.

>> No.5901836

>>5901829
>personal attack
>ad hominem

>even if 'ad hominem' meant 'personal attack' he opted to use the latin term for some reason

literally lmao

>> No.5901862

>>5901818

Well I'm European myself, thoughI've lived in North America for quite a while.

Of course, every culture has a level of comformity its members seek to somewhat attune themselves to, but in Europe it's much more prevalent than in the US ( same as it is more prevalent in say f.e. China than in Europe ).
Especially in Catholic countries you notice this more than the protestant ones, where a clear individualist attitude is seen as too ostentatious for everyone's good. It's good to be different, but the implication is "please god keep it in your niche, and indeed, find a niche, and leave others alone".
Americans are much more 'in your face' about their difference and everyone kind of accepts the fact that there's heterogeneity, even if they don't agree with all its manifestations.

In Europe, your business is still everyone else's business.

>> No.5901866

>>5901800
>radicalized the individualist strain
>eating this bullshit up

have you ever actually looked at american culture from an outside perspective? you're the most homogenous, boringly uniform society in the world. except for you proclaimed individuality you act with an almost singular overall objective. despite your melodramatic discourse you have continued throughout your history on a global and cultural trajectory that has rarely deviated from it's bombastic path.

>but muh great writers
considering your wealth and the time you have had a stranglehold on western culture, you should have had more


>this is why the world think you're idiots

>> No.5901871

>>5901836

if i have a dollar for everytime someone accused me of using an ad hominem argument when i wasn't constructing an argument at all. i was just insulting them. big words, though!

>> No.5901879

>>5901866

Well I did, because I am an outsider, dork.

Most of the "american stereotypes" are actually more pronounced in Europeans, and they don't even realize it.
Europe is aiming for the EXACT same goals but with more snobbery. Just sheltered and armchair superiority.

America is crass and stupid, sure. But at least it's not a society which sees the exception to the rule as a danger, or something which doesn't stick with a nepotist circlejerk. Really eerily simular to Hobbits almost.
Why do you think there's still a move from Europeans to America and not the reverse? And I'm talking about the best and the brightest, not the Ameriboo types, whatever that might be. It's more than just pay, it's an embrace of exceptionality, of being exceptional, that Europeans don't have.
Look at the business mentality. If you fail once in Europe, you're done for. If you fail in America, that's just the start.

>> No.5901883

>>5901879
>If you fail once in Europe, you're done for. If you fail in America, that's just the start.
where to start?
you are definitely american though

>> No.5901888

>>5901883
>you are definitely american
Why do euros find it necessary to make remarks like this?

>> No.5901889

>>5901883

Nope, Nederlands.
Try again. I don't partake in this cultural elitism of "hon hon hon, dese americains don't know what that is, culture, n'est pas?"

Europeans are becoming a bunch of Republicans camping out in a museum.
More and more by the day.
There's nothing to be proud of and a lot to learn.
But god forbid you would ever consider "crazy Jesusland xD" having something to offer.

>> No.5901910

>>5901889
>There's nothing to be proud of and a lot to learn.

and you don't think your homeland, america, has something to be proud of and nothing to learn. your carbon copy of imperialism? your carbon copy of the vietnam war? your asshole government that likes to fuck around with their domestic agendas and act all innocent when their bullshit becomes a pain in the ass for the rest of the world?

>> No.5901911
File: 730 KB, 2285x1648, sherman.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5901911

>>5901491
hahaha
shitskins blaming the hand that feeds them everyone!

>>5901508
This
Anyone who disagrees has zero knowledge of how people operate in society. America needs a dictator strong enough to get throu with those steps.
A man ready to deal with the chimpout that would follow. Someone who would be able to do what is right, even if it means rolling out tanks to the streets. Once the uproar would be pacified we would have a phoenix rising from the ashes. Truly glorious transformation.
Anything else is just bleeding out to death.

>> No.5901912

>>5900793
Americans don't believe in general knowledge and hate anything that seems like snobbery. This is because their ideal of egalitarianism and meritocracy is to take a pleb and have him be the same pleb, just with specialised practical (economic) skills, being successful after having justly rise through his own effort. That's their narrative.
They fear and hate anything that might seem like inborn skill or aristocracy, including superficially 'pointless'( un- economically or religiously motivated activities) like reading, or learning in an abstract way.
The American left goes in the opposite direction and idealises the decisions and tastes of poor people (i.e. Uneducated people.).

>> No.5901914

>>5901889

Please be in 020

>> No.5901915

>>5901912
Apologies for typos.

>> No.5901925
File: 39 KB, 595x446, 1362605062569.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5901925

>>5901663
Detroid is pretty much a smoking crater of socialist policies and welfare system.
This is what your dream come true looks like you dumb red fuck.

>> No.5901927

>>5901910

We're not talking about the imperial politics about the US government, but about North American culture.

>> No.5901947

>>5901910
>he actually thinks its possible to be both moral and powerful
10,000 fucking years and you still haven't learned. Its never happened. Its never going to happen. The problem isn't the system, its the human attached to it. "Change"--a different kind of immorality, a different kind of abuse. Take the poor and put them in work camps, make them useful to society while giving them order and structure. Teach the savages the ways of God and the church, that will save their souls. Get ride of the king and give the people the power, that will bring about a great civility and unity. Anything sound familiar? Yes, get on the right side of history, just like all the evil of the past did. And of course you will blame greed or wickedness but honestly, it takes a certain kind of masochism to keep out hope this long. And if we could get rid of these ills, what then? You honestly want to get rid of the impulse for present gain? You want to get rid of the ability to do someone harm? If you can't see the immoral implications of these ideas, then I guess you are in good company.

Doesn't it get tiring? To keep attaching this "evil" and "good" to things? To constantly inhibit yourself or even lie, to say "its for the best" while you get screwed out of some tiny ounce of profit, that material reward that could have been yours, could have made life enjoyable for another second, at least the second, at least the all precious moment before guilt hits you? But at least you had the second! That's time you won't have again. And while the guilt can be undone with a stripping away of your constant return to moral thought, the pleasure will remain always. Who do you think will bring us to Utopia, moralists or capitalists? The good or the greedy? The wise or the intelligent? Its no contest really, the choice is obvious. But you are free to lie. Its the beauty of recursion. There might only be one outcome, but as long as there's the ability to imagine! That's all there has to be.

>> No.5901958

>>5901947
t. Nietzsche

>> No.5901964

>>5901958
I don't think Nietzsche would approve of me seemingly advocating for materialistic hedonism in all decision making.

>> No.5901967

>>5901964
I stopped reading at the first sentence
Don't you have a garden to relax in or something?

>> No.5901968

>>5901947
who said anything about a utopia.
maybe assholes should just know when they're assholes and why they're assholes.
is there really anything wrong with that? who expects an asshole to change anyway?

>> No.5901971

Vapid.

Go to any pub and talk to anyone.

>> No.5901972

>>5901967
I hate gardens, so no. I would suppose that 4chan is the garden I relax in. This is all a lot of fun, isn't it? I imagine that's why we all come here.

>>5901968
I said Utopia as a exaggeration of any move towards a more moral world. The problem with assholes discovering they are assholes is that nothing is gained while the ability to believe the lie that one is moral is lost. The problem is precisely that the asshole might change, into a sadder, more schizophrenic person that has to constantly question each action and thought. And to what end, really? I don't see the point.

>> No.5901976

>>5901972
probably a no less valid end than any other that doesn't immediately result in societies benefit as a whole. so basically everything we do

>> No.5901982

>>5901976
Yes, you are right. Its probably a lot of fun calling someone an asshole, so there is that. What if we could have the entire society believing they are assholes? I think people might be happier overall, provided they also know that everyone else is an asshole just like them.

>> No.5901995

>>5901982
essentially