[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 222 KB, 1556x872, Ly0O9f5.jpg~original.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5891201 No.5891201 [Reply] [Original]

What does /lit/ think the absolute degeneration of literature? Jason and the Argonauts used to be required reading for grade 6 in 1914.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFrYEV07p4I&index=17&list=PLvOVyowmYcu0HeVcvmfzgnG-BNa6pEdWv

>> No.5891213

>>5891201
You mean the degeneration of educational standards and curriculum.

>> No.5891214

Go ahead and prove that not reading Jason and the Argonauts in the sixth grade is "the absolute degeneration of literature".

We'll wait.

>> No.5891217

>Disliking Raymond Carver

>> No.5891255

>>5891201
Not to mention they read it in Greek.

>> No.5891277

Loser culture. Heroism has become an undesirable element.

>> No.5891281

>>5891277
>he says, while posting on 4chan

>> No.5891296

I read in it 7th grade in 2006

>> No.5891298

>>5891201
What's Jason and the Argonauts?
Did you mean The Argonautica?
If you're going to complain about degeneration of literature, you can at least know the titles of things.

>> No.5891300

>>5891214
It's Jason and the fucking Argonauts you twat.

>> No.5891301

>>5891277

There's no such thing as a hero anymore, that's why the word is used to talk about soldiers and policemen and other dangerous jobs for easily persuaded retards.

>> No.5891310

>>5891300
Unconvincing.

>> No.5891315

>>5891301

Maybe for some Republicans these still fit the hero mold, but most of the Western world would no longer define these men as heroes.

We used to define heroism on merit, now we define it on victimhood. A hero, classically speaking, would be someone who achieved something in their chosen field: science, art, sports, warfare, life saving, etc. Somewhere starting in the 60s, we started ascribing merit to being fucked over. Cut on the TV sometime if you want to test this out. Cut on the Ellen show, Oprah, whatever. Now, what we would call a hero would be a bullied teenager.

>> No.5891321

>>5891315
A hero, classically speaking, was a figure who was larger than life and had at least one deity in their bloodline.

>> No.5891322

>>5891315
>most of the Western world

Literally, the entire Western World jerks off to
'LOVE MUH TROOPS'

>> No.5891328

>>5891322

>America is the western world

Ask a eurofag if he loves the troops.

>>5891321

Even more true.

>> No.5891336

>>5891298
Came here for this.
OP is BLOWN THE FUCK OUT

>> No.5891337

We read it (the teacher read it to us) in grade 4 in my school when we learned about Greek mythology. How does not reading it relate to the degeneration of all literature though?

>> No.5891347

>>5891337
I would like to know this too.

The Argonautica is the least essential Greek reading, a distant fifth behind The Iliad, The Odyssey, Plato's Republic and Oedipus and Antigone, all of which were taught to me 7-9th grade in the American public school system

>> No.5891355

>>5891315
> Somewhere starting in the 60s, we started ascribing merit to being fucked over.

oh you, shut up and read something written at least more than 100 years ago instead of splutter your pub's nonsenses.

>> No.5891366

>>5891300
ad hominem

>> No.5891367 [DELETED] 
File: 48 KB, 469x463, fedora.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5891367

>>5891315
its called cultural marxism and it was invented by jewish intellectuals to undermine western society and turn white men into cuckolds

>> No.5891368

>>5891315

It goes beyond bullied teenagers. McCain was described as a war hero for being shot down and taken prisoner. Rather than, say, a traitor for losing valuable military equipment to farmers with sticks.

>> No.5891373

>>5891315
>>5891368
retards everywhere

>> No.5891377
File: 193 KB, 900x660, a Good Man is Hard to Find.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5891377

Jason and the Golden Fleece is still read in some schools, though each determines its own readings. You realize trying to indoctrinate grade schoolers into "muh classics" doesn't generally work in getting the students to actually love literature, right? Get off your "born in the wrong generation" horse.

>>5891315
>We used to define heroism on merit, now we define it on victimhood.
This sounds a lot like republican wanky whining. Produce something concrete to prove your point, because the only time I ever hear the word hero used is in reference to pigs and comic-book characters.

>> No.5891378

>>5891355

HMMMM QUITE SOPHISTICATED YES

The 60's was a major fuck over and the start of identity politics gaining a voice.
Stop deluding yourself with the peripheral case studies of "in medieval times losers were also respected." historicist bullshit.

>> No.5891382

>>5891377

I already gave an example. But you'll of course deny that this is the case just because you'll deny it's the case.

I'm far from a Republican. I just can't stand PC bullshit. It short-circuits every real emancipatory narrative.

If you want proof of how right you are, go on tumblr sometime. It's inversion of ideals, and being a victim became the most noble thing a person could be rather than a winner.....this is multiple generations of that theory in action.

>> No.5891386

>>5891378
What are you /really/ upset about, mate? I don't think it's anything to do with literature or the past.

>> No.5891387

>>5891377

>You realize trying to indoctrinate grade schoolers into "muh classics" doesn't generally work in getting the students to actually love literature, right?

Oh please stop this postmodern pedagogical bullshit about education being 'le indoctrination in le some cases'.

Fuck your free Rousseau-children. Education serves education alone, not your special snowflakes.

>> No.5891396

>>5891386

>not replying to the post and just going on a "u le mad tangent"

Classical liberal. Isn't there some hashtag you need to post somewhere else?

>> No.5891403

>>5891301
You twat, what do you think heroes were back in the day? Soldiers and nobles, legendary heroes were just exaggerating those roles the same way Rambo and the Terminator are exaggerations of modern soldiers and nobles.

>> No.5891406

>>5891366
ad hominididindiod idiod oid

>i have literally nothing to say

>> No.5891408

>>5891347
I think OP thought it was part of the odyssey or something

>> No.5891409

>>5891328
America is the Western World.

Every other country is practically third world compared to the United States

>> No.5891412

>>5891409
You might want to reapply the lure m8, you aint even gonna catch seaweed with that shit

>> No.5891413

>>5891378
Actually the suffering hero is one of the most universal staples for the literary hero.

I mean, I realize I'm arguing with an illiterate /pol/ here, but Oedipus, (which is a far more important Greek text than Jason) is the tragic hero precisely because he has marked for suffering.

Same with his daughter Antigone, and Sigurd, and Jesus and Osiris and a hundred other mythological and religious "heroes".

We have always cherished the Martyr, the one who quietly suffers against his fate in noble obstinacy.

But hey, you don't have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about so I'm sure this won't get through to you

>> No.5891421

>>5891387
>>5891396
>>5891406
Really though, why are you so upset that they didn't teach you the Argonautica?

>> No.5891425

I think OP means we should be teaching these classic Greek stories to kids at a young age as an intro of Western literature.

>> No.5891427

>>5891413

You're not as smart as you think because you missed the vital part of the heroic tale.
Namely, the hero eventually overcomes his suffering. He doesn't become a self-victimizing shithead pointing fingers at others for his suffering, like, you know, most of your ideology's acolytes.

>> No.5891432

>>5891387
What the fuck are you even talking about

>> No.5891433

>>5891413

>a far more important Greek text than Jason

muh Freud

>> No.5891436

>>5891427
>antigone overcomes her suffering
She hangs herself.
>Oedipus overcomes his suffering
He blinds and banishes himself.
What are you on about?

>> No.5891438

>>5891432

Maybe sit down for a second and do an effort to understand the point being made.

Learning kids one to ten isn't indoctrination. So isn't learning about the existence of all the Classics.

>> No.5891443

>>5891436

>muh Greeks

I'm more interested in other mythologies than that tragedy bullshit you avant-garde shits keep regurgitating generation after generation because it fits your own victimhood narrative.

>> No.5891444

>>5891427
>Sigurd
>Oedipus
>Antigone
>Overcoming their suffering

You what mate

>> No.5891446

>>5891427
>Namely, the hero eventually overcomes his suffering
No he fucking doesn't you retard.

>He doesn't become a self-victimizing shithead pointing fingers at others for his suffering

Have you even read Oedipus? That's EXACTLY what he does. How can you be so wrong?

THIS IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU DON'T START WITH THE GREEKS KIDS. YOU MAKE A DAMN FOOL OUT OF YOURSELF.

>> No.5891448

>>5891413
Jesus founded the largest cult on earth and opedius became king through wit. You generally need to achieve something to be a hero, simply getting fucked over is hardly rare or heroic

>> No.5891450

>>5891377

>sounds Republican
>IMMEDIATELY DISREGARD OPINION

>> No.5891455
File: 378 KB, 567x550, 1406269388327.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5891455

>>5891443
>I only like classics when it conforms to my political views and not based on their actual quality

>> No.5891458

ITT: heroes are pathetic pushovers just like myself

>> No.5891459

>>5891347
>the least essential Greek reading, a distant fifth
You do realize there are more than five extant works of Greek literature...Right?

>> No.5891464

>>5891425
Then OP would be right.

>> No.5891467

>>5891450
You're new here, aren't you?

>> No.5891469

Is Oedipus a 'hero'?
It's not because he features in a myth that he's a hero by default.

Get your shit straight, fucking Freudians.

>> No.5891470

>>5891459
Do you realize this conversation is about what kids in 6th grade should be reading?

I hear the inability to extrapolate information based on context is one of the telling signs of autism

>> No.5891476

>>5891438
>emotional lashing-out
>ad hominem
>strawman
>strawman

>a point being made

I get it, you're upset about the word indoctrination, but maybe if you weren't too busy victimizing yourself about whatever boogeyman it is you're afraid of -- or if you spent more time reading then shitposting on 6sama -- you'd realize the word's meaning is benign.

>> No.5891481

>>5891469
... you know that not every discussion of Oedipus is relevant to Freud, right? Like, you realize that the Oedipus trilogy was part of classic western canon before Freud, right?

And also Oedipus is the archetypal tragic hero, soooo yes? He is a hero

>> No.5891482
File: 11 KB, 221x246, kermit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5891482

>>5891476

>still not constructively replying because "I spotted emotions there"

Alrighty then.

>> No.5891486

>>5891201
Literature is not degenerating. Standards taught in grade school? Sure, maybe. You choose that video though? Really? Look at any of his other videos. He is just another goon regurgitating Republican talking points. He doesn't actually understand what he is talking about in any relevant way.

>> No.5891488

>>5891450
>OP makes claim
>Ask for proof of claim because it sounds like baseless emotional wankery
>Anon tries to make diversion so that he doesn't have to actually substantiate his dumb "opinions"

>> No.5891489

>>5891481

/lit/ is basically a Freudian Yeshiva.
So it's not a surprise to see Oedipus being referenced to and hardly ever Jason or Icarus or any other myth.

>> No.5891491

>>5891469
>newfagging this hard

>> No.5891494

>>5891488

I did substantiate.
But you idiots can only take your own observations seriously, so there's that.

>> No.5891498

>>5891413
That's a fair point, but I still think that a hero is someone with much virtue and excellence. The tragic hero may suffer, but he's not some unlikeable prick suffering, for if he was, the piece wouldn't be tragic. No, he's an honorable, virtuous man, usually in possession of some degree of practical wisdom, which is why his suffering is tragic to us, and why he is a hero in the first place.

>> No.5891501

>>5891486
>99% of the population becomes illiterate
>every thing is fine guys, lower standards in the lower populace doesn't effect the art
>Then some identity politics bull shit because anon bought a Prius

>> No.5891506

>>5891443
>having to move the goalposts
>after making a thread about Greek mythology being taught in schools

Consider yourself #REKT beyond recognition

>> No.5891511

>>5891482
Constructively replying to what, anon? That you're mad that grade schoolers generally hate being forced to read classics, and that simply forcing a classics based curriculum doesn't inspire love of literature for most kids? Is this really controversial to you? The question is why haven't you responded constructively to that criticism?

>> No.5891515

>>5891443
you got btfod lol

>> No.5891518

>>5891494
>I did substantiate.
Where?

>> No.5891526

>>5891501
Is that the best you have? An imaginary apocalypse too stupid for even a Michael Bay production?

>> No.5891534

>>5891489
The Oedipus trilogy is arguably the most important set of plays in entire Western history. It essentially defined the conventions of tragedy that Aristotle later codified in Poetics. The themes of man vs. fate and later man vs. society (in Antigone) have become templates that have been adhered to for literally thousands of years since.

Jason is much like Hercules. A tale of a big strong man who goes out, kicks some ass, stumbles upon some allegorical monsters, kicks their asses, gets the girl and goes home.

Ok, that's fine. I'll read that to my 6 year old kid before bedtime, but by the time he is old enough to analyze literature I would want him reading something with a little more import.

>>5891515
>>5891506
Painfully obvious samefag. Have some fucking dignity, prole

>> No.5891536

>>5891511

Why do you not uphold the same standards for the humanities as you do for math or other courses?

Why is learning about all the classics forced indoctrination and memorizing the basics of mathematics not?

You can't make students 'love' literature, history and so forth. A huge part depends on the teacher, not the content.
Get that shit out of your heads.

You're really discrediting this field and you're not even aware of it.

>> No.5891539

>>5891298
>What's Jason and the Argonauts?
>Did you mean The Argonautica?

exactly my question
jason and the argonauts sounds as some sit com title

>>5891436
neither antigone nor oedipus are 'sufferers' of that 'to silently suffer with dignity' kind. antigone actively went against the authority defending what she thought to be right and suffered for that, i personally dunno if a stoic would approve such an affront against the fate which obviously dictated her to silently suffer not being able to bury her brother, as for the suicide, suicide for ancients was a dignified solution when one didn't have any other choice, i.e. it was ok for them to die fast instead of to die slowly being entombed in a crypt, her suicide is way more justified than that, of, say, romeo and juliet/pyramus and thysbe

oedipus is even less a sufferer, instead of calmly accepting what the fate brought to him he made some very desperate things to punish himself

>> No.5891546

>>5891506
>>5891515

Not at all. I'm a self-confessed northernboo.
My bias stems from that.

>> No.5891549

>>5891526
No, I was caricaturing your post in a summary, not making a dsytopia. Not very good reading comprehension

But aside from your predictable attempts to turn this conversation into another insult match, the general populations decrease ability to comprehend literature does effect literature since it doesn't exist in a vacuum separate from our world

>> No.5891553

>>5891534

>alpha stories are so brutish and unsofisticated, urgh

How much dicks up your ass have you had?

>> No.5891558

>>5891501
I never said that we shouldn't have 6th graders reading such texts. I actually agree with this point. However, he is using roundabout bullshit way to make his actual point, criticizing common core. The principle is universalized standards which, while it may bring some people down, may bring other areas up. The video ultimately is not at all about dropping standards, but to invent some strawman to get his talking point in. He wants to give it to the states so they can do whatever they want, which serves his agenda rather than actually solving the problem he brings up. He doesn't actually give a shit about solving the problem and preserving the literary tradition. He, once again, is just a Republican goon who is telling the choir (mentally molested and all) what they want to hear.

The fact that you fuckers actually buy into this bullshit proves you don't have the reading comprehension and discerning ability to be deciding what anyone should read.

>> No.5891559

>>5891549
HAHAHAHAHA

IS THIS BAIT? I count FIVE grammatical and spelling mistakes in your post in which you are bitching about the decreasing literacy rates.

FUCK YOU ARE DUMB DUDE!!!

>> No.5891561

>>5891536
Would you just fucking look up the what the word indoctrination means? Jesus.

>> No.5891571

>>5891561

Studying ANYTHING in a school of a democratic society isn't indoctrination you fucking twat.

>> No.5891572

>>5891539
I don't know about you, but I would definitely say Oedipus and Antigone suffered from the tragic consequences of fate. Overcoming it would imply a resolution that is ultimately more optimistic. The fact that the decision for Antigone to be killed is ultimately lifted by Creon, yet its too late, means there is no real optimistic resolution to the defiant manner of her suicide, and is ultimately revealed to have been tragically pointless.
As for Oedipus, his punishment doesn't alleviate his suffering, since in the final moments of his play, he is not allowed even his children to comfort him and control is taken out of his hands making him wander broken and alone for the rest of his days.

>> No.5891578

>>5891553
argonautica is a story of quest, of search and achieving success working as a command
odyssey overshadow it as a story of a voyage though

>> No.5891580

>>5891549
>caricature of anon's post

Yes, and it was an incoherent caricature, which is why I responded the way I did.

>> No.5891588

>>5891571
You can't be this retarded.

>> No.5891589
File: 125 KB, 640x469, 8288063343_791b4d7a29_z.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5891589

>>5891201
I'm going to co-opt a line from a Joe Rogan special in which he said
>people always tell you that the book was better than the movie. They sneak it into the conversation to let you know that they read the book. Are you fucking kidding me? When I watch Game of Thrones, I get to see dragons blowing shit up, tits all over the place, and bloody sword fights. Meanwhile, your pretentious clown ass is sitting in a corner reading a page with your eyes closed trying to imagine that shit." *starts mimicking a face of constipation with an expression of hard concentration, followed by audience laughter*

Now that last part I added to simulate the same kind of imagination it takes to read the imagery and prose of a novel. But it still isn't as vivid to actually see it on a display.

I know both film and literature are essential forms of art, but one seems much more archaic in this day and age. Of course, that doesn't discredit the artistic integrity of great writers before us, but what Bill Whittle said in that video you posted, alongside with your view, you both need to realize that literature is starting to be left behind in favor of cinematic renditions. Mainly because it is a much more convenient and easily digestible form of art.

What it takes for you to read a 400 page novel in several months, I can take down in a matter of 2 and a half hours through a well made film. That may sound ignorant, because you may be adding your own meaning to that statement as you misunderstand that I think film is better than literature, but of course that's not true. I simply stated a fact. There is no degeneration of literature, there is only an enhancement of film. That may answer your question OP. We are visual creatures. Seeing something is better than trying to picture it in your head.

>> No.5891594

>>5891588

Tell me how it is then?

inb4 capitalist slavery bullshit

>> No.5891598

>>5891534
>Jason is much like Hercules. A tale of a big strong man who goes out, kicks some ass, stumbles upon some allegorical monsters, kicks their asses, gets the girl and goes home.

Okay, what about the part where they die horrible deaths, Jason for being a douche, and Hercules from centaur trickery.

Isn't there meaning to the end of their stories? Doesn't Jason's story showcase some perceived darker aspects of a hero's personality? Or how Hercules's death might show even the mightiest men of the land may fall to baseness of beasts and silly women?

Oh right, you're some guy who goes around calling others "people's," couldn't really have expected any true depth from anything you might say, only sly condescension and shallowness.

>> No.5891599

>>5891594
You are this retarded.

>> No.5891604

>>5891599

>not agreeing with me ideologically classifies you as retard

This is why you'll never champion the working class.

>> No.5891607

>>5891558
Why can't new england have higher literature standards than Mississippi, instead of every thing able to passed by mississippi?

Is it some insidious plot to remove evolution from schools or something

>> No.5891615

>>5891589

Joe Rogan makes a very common sensical remark most on here will of course brush off as the distasteful plebeianism because they like to think their minds are somehow god tier aesthetic reservoirs.

You can immediately spot the snob then.

>> No.5891621

>>5891201
I read Argonautica in high school, plus it was a shitty public one ranked in the top worse of the city. It's not even a must-read for a teenager or a kid, there are far more important Greek texts you can make them read instead.

>> No.5891623

>>5891598
>Okay, what about the part where they die horrible deaths, Jason for being a douche
That is why I would rate Medea as worth reading.

Maybe if Hercules had been put into an epic or play it miiiggghhht have been part of the literary canon. Guess we'll never know.

>you're some guy who goes around calling others "people's,"
Um.. what?

>> No.5891631

>>5891572

i didn't say that they overcame it, i said that they seem aside from the stoic/christian ideal of a patient sufferer, at least in some interpretations of it

also their types aren't that approved nowadays too. well, antigone type it's basically revolutioners, terrorists etc, oedipus doesn't look like a role model at all

>> No.5891632

>>5891607
Enroll your kids in an AP or IB school, problem solved

>> No.5891633

>>5891604
>it will never just look up what 'indoctrinate' means
>it will never stop victimizing itself
>it will never be suitable for literary conversation yet wants to post on /lit/

>> No.5891634

>>5891580
You're fucking anonymous, why are you defending yourself. No one cares about your irony on top of irony

>> No.5891640

>>5891632
Yeah, I guess your right. God knows I don't have fucking time to reflect on all of society's problems

>> No.5891644

>>5891633

Ok I looked it up.
Please continue the conversation then.

>> No.5891645

>>5891598
*proles

>> No.5891654

>>5891634
>thinking there are only two people here, including yourself
>not realizing that all of 4chan is a sophisticated bot that generates random replies to you while also posting other comments made to appear as if they were being posted by other people
>it's just you

Congratulations!

>> No.5891663

>>5891633

Not that anon, but I don't know if it was you, but someone did call learning the classics "indoctrination" >>5891377
So, yeah.

>> No.5891675

>>5891663
1) That does not say "learning the classics is 'indoctrination'"
2) Indoctrination, as mentioned earlier, does not necessarily imply something sinister.

Christ.

>> No.5891678

>>5891607
You are literally just regurgitating talking points. I am not really either for or against common core. I haven't really bothered to research the issue to have an opinion on it. However, Republicans typically resist these things because
>muh state power
>muh cultural values.
While I am sure for some people preventing evolution is a part of it, it also comes down to what history texts are chosen and, correspondingly, how voters vote in the future among other things. It is just a struggle for power and something with national attention is unlikely to become as jingoistic as they secretly wish it to be.

Regardless, the point remains that he is simply appealing to the emotions of those who love classical literature to incite them for a cause that won't solve the problem. Common core isn't ending or beginning of any trend to teach or not teach texts like that at a certain age. And you are all fucking dumb for falling for it.

>> No.5891691

>>5891678
Goodness, you are incapable of writing coherently and logically. This must be the fruits of the common core education.

>> No.5891699

>>5891377
I definitely agree with you. The Argonautica and other classic pieces of literature are important works of art that should be read but forcing them on young children doesn't inspire a love of reading. They're unrelatable to current generations and without historical context they lack any real impact. Let kids read books about things they know.

>> No.5891724

>>5891632
You'd have to be a fool to equate the IB program as something that focuses on education. It's a ponzi scheme for wealthy trustees and higher-ups to profit off of children who get high grades, which leads to more funding and thus more money. Look into it. They control the grading limits, so they kick out all but the few that can only sustain themselves academically.
Also, the program itself isn't centered on education all, because it's main focus is on heavy workloads and exams from the all time AP schedule.

It's better to send your kid to a well established charter school and have him/her take AP classes that correspond to his/her career interests.

>> No.5891726

>>5891675

I don't care about the "u mad" bullshit that goes on here, but I'm seriously past this.

Indoctrination has a clear connotation in our world. I realize a patrician like you is beyond that, but a prole like me isn't, apologies for that Commissar.

The fact your Foucauldian bullshit claims indoctrination is "ok" is fine by me, but we're not discussing that right now.
In that sentence, OBVIOUSLY, indoctrination was implied to be a 'bad thing'. I'm pretty sure my reading comprehension allowed me to decode that. And it did call "muh classics" indoctrination.

So kindly fuck off now, pretentious cunt.

>> No.5891731

>>5891486
In my opinion modern day classics are more enjoyable than old classics. I mean great works of art are always going to be great works of art but what was built upon them is much more interesting. Case in point, and no I'm not being ironic, Infinite Jest is a much more interesting and rewarding read that The Argonautica because it was written with the context of and built on the entirety of literature.

>> No.5891733

>>5891699
Your ideas are based on horribly false assumptions. Unrelatable? That's because the cultural continuity of the West has been broken by the resentniks. "Let kids read about things they know" and nothing of value is gained.

>> No.5891735

>>5891691
There is no one in existence who is "common core" educated dumbass. It has just been implemented.

>> No.5891742
File: 73 KB, 499x551, penny.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5891742

>deliberately massify and stupefy own citizens over three or four generations
>have endless neutered proletarian slavehorde

oi m8 u avin a go innit? wot i need dis istory sduf for m8

>> No.5891747

>>5891731
DFW could not think much less write, the fact that you find his book to be a modern classic is an indictment of our educational system itself.

>> No.5891764

>>5891733

Teacherfag here.
This is what the current state is.
Pander to kids their interests because, apparantly, you'll never get them interested in anything if it doesn't appeal to their sense of familiarity.

>> No.5891770

>>5891733
This

>> No.5891776

>>5891733
The "cultural continuity of the West" includes ~4000 years of history and culture that has evolved from Greek and Roman classics. Every single great work of art produced in ancient Greece and Rome is trite and overplayed now-a-days, even children know this.

>> No.5891782
File: 263 KB, 520x377, 1399425127534.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5891782

>>5891776
>Every single great work of art produced in ancient Greece and Rome is trite and overplayed now-a-days, even children know this.

>> No.5891790

>>5891776
2/10

>> No.5891803

>>5891776

>The West starts with the Greeks

Except it didn't.

>> No.5891806

>>5891782
>>5891790
What is a trope?

>> No.5891807

>>5891806
A buzzword.

>> No.5891824

>>5891724
I don't know man I was in IB in high school, and it was far superior to the rest of the school.

In two years of IB Literature I read:
>The metamorphosis
>The Stranger
>Crime and Punishment
>100 Years of Solitude
>Madame Bovary
>Catch-22
>The Republic
>Collected works of Euripides
>Aristotle's Poetics
>Waiting for Godot
>Rosencratz and Guildenstern are Dead
>a bunch of Shakespeare
>Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
>Of Mice and Men
>Grapes of Wrath

All of this was required reading, and I'm sure I missed a fair bit. A ponzi scheme? For whom? The only money anyone pays to IB is the 100 bucks per test you take at the end of high school. In other words, I paid seven hundred dollars and saved 10,000 dollars of tuition because I started college as a sophomore with all my general req's waived.

Who is profiting off of this, exactly? Seems to me like a pretty good deal.

>> No.5891868

>>5891726
>In that sentence, OBVIOUSLY, indoctrination was implied to be a 'bad thing'.
What's meant to be bad is "indoctrinat[ing] grade schoolers into 'muh classics'. "muh classics" isn't an attack on classics at all, nor the teaching of them, but the exclusionary teaching of classics and demanding that every classic be taught simply because there's a dumb idea that you can make someone love these books by having a system-wide requirement for them, and that not having this system-wide requirement is what causes the "degeneracy" of society. The point of classrooms is supposed to be to instill the love of learning, not checking off some list of to-do assignments. Real degeneracy is raging that not every student has the /accolade/ of having read (or, more likely, "read") the Argonautica/whatever in their school experience, when that attitude is exactly the problem in education (at least in the US).

>>5891733
>>5891764
>>5891770
OP, /pol/io, just stop.

>> No.5891893

>>5891868

Going back to /pol/ doesn't make you win the argument, mr. Ostrich.

>> No.5891930

>>5891824
Wait wait what? I just finished two years of IB HL literature a year ago, and we read some great stuff, but not nearly that much-- do you mean to say you read *all* of those books, or selections? Because the books/authors we studied as part of the syllabus were

(First year)
>Oedipus the King
>Canterbury Tales (selections from)
>Kafka on the Shore
>King Lear
>As I Lay Dying

(Second year)
>Emily Dickinson's poetry
>Donne's poetry
>Blake's poetry
>Philip Larkin's poetry
>TS Eliot's poetry
>Glück's poetry

>> No.5891936

>>5891824
>tfw school paid for ours
thank you based public education.
kinda dumb cause 99% of the people in IB were rich bitches who could've afforded to pay for it.

>> No.5891955

>>5891930
Oh wow man if that's all you read you must have gotten dicked.

You spent an entire year reading poetry? For real? How were you even able to complete the IB test?

Yeah I read all of those in HL IB at my school. To be honest I was under the impression that was how intensive every school's IB program was. Guess not

>> No.5891956

>>5891868
Shut the fuck up you nerd. I read The Hunger Games for english in grade 10. I'm not /pol/ because I think "let kids learn what they know" is trash. You'll never convince me the garbage they had me reading in high school was better than the Argonautica.

>> No.5891991

>>5891956
Sure you did buddy :^) The book didn't even become popular until like 2010 so I'm going to guess you're still in high school.

>> No.5892005

>>5891955
Not really, I absolutely loved the literature course and finished with a 7+ in the final examination, doing it entirely on poetry.

But seriously, how could you have read "several" Shakespeare plays alongside that whole list of yours? We spent the greater part of a term on King Lear, and I left it with half the play in memory and a piercingly thorough understanding of it-- one I couldn't have gotten by blitzing through it in, what, a week? I can do that myself, no IB required, I pay them the big bucks so I get taught something I can't teach myself.

Sure, I could have finished TS Eliot's poetry in half a month, but I wouldn't have understood it or appreciated it to half a fraction that was afforded to me after spending two months on it intensively.

>> No.5892312

>>5891201
Your point might... MIGHT be valid if no literary progress had been made since 1914.
There are so many reasons why the premise of your argument is invalid, it would take me a year to write the novel about just how stupid you sound.

>> No.5892352
File: 22 KB, 195x195, 1342817793900.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5892352

>every time one of these videos gets posted a shitstorm develops on /lit/

must be hitting a nerve somewhere. what, your big fancy education not living up to its billing when all is said and done?

maybe if you understood basic mathematics you would have been able to figure out that it was a bad deal before you cast your lot in with the universities.

and of course, nothing could now come more naturally to an unskilled vagabond like you who owes thousands in debt that the state intervene to protect you from the real world and meet all your trifling little needs.

no wonder this place is crawling with marxists

>> No.5893681

>>5891991
I'm in first year of university, chief

>> No.5893691

>>5891201
Man, I'm not even the slightest conservative but I do love Bill Whittle

>> No.5893706

>>5892352

I really hate to pretend that things were better in le good old days and I was born in le wrong generation, but I have to agree with the quoted post.

People are coddled and the educational standards have degenerated. I'm not immune, I know that I'm shit compared to my parents.

The educational debate in the media is based on so many shit premises, I won't even begin talking about it.

The one thing I will say is that I'm really glad that reading books and literature is almost completely useless for the real world. It keeps the shit (people) away.

>> No.5893752

>>5891368
now this is what I call bait.

I also enjoyed how the video likened anonymous people commenting on a youtube video to the astrophysicists, mathematicians and rocket scientists that landed a man on the moon. Maybe his whole point is that people will inevitably take his video seriously, no matter how idiotic, and this in turn validates him?

>> No.5893830

I don't know about you guys, but I went to a pretty rural, underfunded school system until I graduated and went to College. And 6 - 7th grade English / Language Arts classes were dedicated to learning Greek Mythology, intro poetry, and short-stories; though, they were all baby'd-down and summarized in textbooks from the original material - but so is the example used in the video. And from what I gathered, those standards were recommended by the State and weren't something my English teachers decided to just pick. So I wouldn't considered that students today have lower standards than they did 100 years ago; especially considering that most of the population stopped their education after 8th grade, and the purpose of continuing it and going to High School was only cared from those who were ultimately interested into going to College-which not that many of the population could afford to attend. So, it's kind of harsh to complain how the average 17 year old male High School Senior is dumber today judging by Education Merit compare to the average 17 year old male 100 years ago, when the average 17 male 100 years ago only had up to an 8th grade education or less, was only literate on a basic level, and was destined to work a laborer job for the rest of his life, which the high-lights to that were getting drunk once they got their paychecks.

>> No.5893837

>>5893830
>Destined to work a laborer job for the rest of his life, which the high-lights to that were getting drunk once they got their paychecks

You are still in College right?

>> No.5893974

Who cares? Who amongst us is going to be able to change the education system? And even if you could, what says you would change it for the better?

>> No.5893990

>>5891201
Education is a way to provide skills to perform given tasks.

A true hero is a suffering victim.

All worthless things such as literature, music, painting, classical education, etc, either become commodities or disappear.

Leftist thought, as in gender politics and etc, 'tis just mad capitalism having claimed its domination over everything; the further something is questioned, the further it becomes liquid capital. Gender is become capital, and the funniest; people fighting what they perceived as capitalism made it happen.